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/sci/ - Science & Math

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1175340 No.1175340 [Reply] [Original]

I have a question /sci/.
I was raised by conservative, christian parents. I like to think of myself as pretty open-minded though. But evolution doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't seem like it could just happen, it seems pretty obvious that it needs something to cause it, and God seems like the only answer that makes sense. So why do you all think god doesn't exist when he has to for evolution to occur?

TL;DR If God doesn't exist, how did evolution happen?

>> No.1175344

>>1175340
ಠ_ಠ

>> No.1175354

>it seems pretty obvious that it needs something to cause it

Please elaborate.

>> No.1175359

>>1175340
I know a lot of this stuff doesn't make sense in high school, but wait until college. That should clear everything up.

>> No.1175360

It's time to sage and chew bubble-gum... but I'm all outta gum.

>> No.1175364

>>1175354
Evolution is essentially random changes in a species, correct? If that is the case, then how would the species survive, considering that random changes would most likely cause it to die. The only explanation I can see is that the changes aren't random, and are orchestrated by God so as to ensure the species doesn't die.

>> No.1175368
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1175368

>>1175340
because you are either a troll or don't understand evolution

I suggest reading a book or alternatively pic related

>> No.1175375
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1175375

>>1175340
really?

>> No.1175378

>It doesn't seem like it could happen
Wow, I think we've just reached a new breakthrough. Apparently this guy doesn't think it seems like it could happen. It looks like we were wrong about evolution the whole time.

>> No.1175381

>>1175364
>random change

It's not random, its simple logic that the individuals with the best survival straits are more likely to breed and pass those genes on.

>> No.1175384

>>1175381
traits even

>> No.1175387

>>1175368
I understand evolution pretty well. And I find it offensive that you think the best solution for my question is genocide. I thought this was a board on science, not ignorance and hatred.

>> No.1175388

The question itself is flawed. Evolution describes how species originate through the genetic changes in populations. It explains the question of how, not the question of why. Evolution is not about the origin of life; it's about how biodiversity progresses.

If you're looking for an origin of life theory, there are plenty out there, but none of them have much to do with evolution, save for the fact that life must exist before evolution can. Try a keyword search for Abiogenesis if you're looking for answers about the origin of life. Also realize that science does not presume to know all (yet). That's how it is superior to religion. It's all exploratory.

>> No.1175392

>>1175364

>random

get out.

>> No.1175399

>>1175387
>not ignorance and hatred
do yourself a favor and leave now.

>> No.1175400
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1175400

>>1175387
>he's offended on 4chan

>> No.1175401
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1175401

>>1175387
nope, your post has made it rather clear that you don't understand evolution at all

>> No.1175403

>>1175400
>>1175399
>>1175392
You're all clearly too stuck up to be of any help. And Atheists wonder why every other religion hates them.

>> No.1175405

>>1175403

Ignorance at its best. :3

>> No.1175406

>>1175405
I'm not ignorant, you all are just choosing to harass me about my faith as opposed to actually trying to answer my question.

>> No.1175407
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1175407

>>1175403
>implying every religion doesn't hate every other religion.
Go cry somewhere else.

>> No.1175408
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1175408

>>1175403
>implying evolution has anything to do with atheism
>implying people on 4chan can be used to generalize atheists
>implying you can generalize atheists

>> No.1175409

Okay, for once I take that as a real question and not trolling. (I know, I am idealistic)

I admit, if you dont know much about it, it seems counter intuitive.
The most important factor of evolution is time.
Life and evolution started about 3 billion years ago (maybe 4 I dont know, google). Given such a big time, it is probable that random mutations (which occur all the time) do something to the daughter cell, that improves it's function. Of course these advanced cells could replicate faster or had some other advantages that made them live longer to produce more daughter cells, which of course had the same advantage.

That is evolution in a nut shell.
Random positive mutation and nature selecting that advanced "being".
Of course things like floods and earthquakes or meteors played their role, too.

>> No.1175411

>>1175340
>Implying the science isn't self-consistent without god

>> No.1175413

fast gazelle outrun cheetas
so they make lots of babies because they live long time
these babies all have fast gazelle genes and thus are fast gazelle themselves
repeat
gazelle become fast

if gazelle is slow (due to slow genes) then it dies quickly and has few or no children
and those children it does have are slow and thus die quickly and also have few or no children
so slow genes do not last long

genes come from random mutation but can be beneficial or detrimental to the individual creature

mutation is very common and evolution has a long time to work with, so beneficial mutations are not so rare

thus
natural selection!

>> No.1175414

It's the best explanation for all the evidence we have so far.

It's not perfect as in we don't understand everything, but parts of it is already proven.

Instead of just getting biased information (which are honestly ridiculous) from other people, get educated.

>> No.1175416

>>1175408
Atheists are the only ones who believe in the bullcrap theory of evolution, which I know is shit simply because no one here has bothered to explain it. I've just been bashed for my religion this entire time instead of being given any answers.

>> No.1175427

>>1175414
>>1175413
>>1175409
Thank you for actual answers, though it still doesn't make sense. Why would one gazelle be faster than another without God making it so?

>> No.1175432

>>1175340
Here's a protip. Nobody fucking cares what you think. You're so infected by religion that you don't have a single valid thought.

>> No.1175433

>>1175416

>doesn't believe in something because they don't know what it is

You are truly retarded. Go read a book. Go read about evolution instead of asking 4chan.

>google

>> No.1175434

>>1175416
How about you disreagard the butthurt atheists and listen to
>>1175413
>>1175409
which could or could not be atheists (one of them is, I know for sure).

>> No.1175436
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1175436

>Why would one gazelle be faster than another without God making it so?

>> No.1175437

>>1175427

random mutation. one gazelle is faster, the other is slower. the slower one gets killed, the faster one lives and passes it on to their children.

>> No.1175439

>>1175432
>>1175433
More religion bashing. It's a shame so many of you are hate-filled pricks that can't even answer a question about your own beliefs. It's sad really.

>> No.1175440

>>1175427
this is where you cross the troll line. it's genetics, and if you refuse to understand genetics you'll never understand evolution. i sat by patiently waiting to see if you'd get it, and guess what, surprise surprise, you didn't.

>> No.1175442

>>1175427
Learn a little bit about genetics

>> No.1175444

ITT: 1 troll trolling a lot of angsty children with one actually intelligent person (>>1175413) trying to ignore all the trolling

>> No.1175445

>>1175406
OK, since you seem to be very serious about this, I'll assume you're not a troll. You came to a science board asking how something could happen without God. This annoys people with open minds, because it is such a god damned stupid thing to ask. That is why you fail. It's so fucking stupid that no one on here is ever going to give you a serious answer, so please, since you seem to be getting very offended, just leave.

>> No.1175447

>>1175427
Why would God make a gazelle faster than another? What would be the use in that? If he wants them to survive then why create gazelles slower than cheetas in the first place or why make it so that cheetas eat gazelles?

>> No.1175450

>>1175437
But according to that, once the slow gazelle died out, wouldn't their predators die out too? Unless God changed their genes to let them catch up with the new fast gazelle, they'd be too slow and wouldn't change in time from "random mutations" that helped them catch up.

>> No.1175452

Evolution vs Creation is a myth.

Evolution only explains the diversity of life on earth, not how life originally came to be.

>> No.1175458

>>1175452
Yes. I believe evolution is a possibility, I just don't see how it could happen without some intervention by God.

>>1175447
I don't understand why God would do that, but I'm sure he has reasons. Perhaps just to keep the world dynamic and interesting?

>> No.1175461

>>1175439

>implying >>1175433 is religion bashing

Not one thing stated in that post has anything to do with religion; only stupidity.

>> No.1175462

>>1175450

the faster cheetas survive, the slower ones die out. it could be easily guided by god,but it doesn't have to.

i'm a catholic and you are starting to piss me off slightly.

>> No.1175463

Evolution is caused by two things:

Mutation: Where "errors" in DNA cause subtle changes in the animal; good or bad.

Natural Selection: Where animals better suited for their environment are more likely to survive.

Essentially, animals with favorable mutations are more likely to survive and pass their genetic code down. However, Natural Selection does not make it impossible to pass down flawed or dangerous genes, many of which hide in many humans through recessive genes.

>> No.1175465

>>1175427
Imagine a herd of gazelles.
All have offspring. Due to mutations (that is a defect in the genes, shit happens, how and why that happens you can read in an advanced bio-chemistry book) some gazelles are faster than others.
The faster ones do not die and have more offspring which are also faster.
Multiplied by 1000000 life cycles all the little changes that occure during one life cycle add up and you got major changes as a result.

>> No.1175473

>>1175452

true. sadly retards on both sides don't know anything about the other side, so a conflict happens.

>> No.1175475

>>1175462
But why wouldn't the predators die out when their prey outran them? It would have to be some kind of equilibrium of deaths and births, which could only be set as well as it is through divine intervention.

>>1175463
This still doesn't explain why predators can survive when their prey are able to outrun them.

>> No.1175477

not OP, but i always wondered how Giraffes came to existence?

>> No.1175483

>>1175427
some people are tall and some people are short
some people have ginger hair, some people have brown hair
this is all the result of genetics
the same variation is present in gazelles, some gazelles are faster than others
this variation arises out of mutation (which is very common and perfectly natural, no magic here)

>>1175450
the predators that are too slow would die out
the predators fast enough would continue to catch gazelle and would have children who are also fast

this is known as an evolutionary 'arms-race' and it stops when the gazelle and cheetas are both as fast as they can be

beyond that point becoming any faster might become a detriment (because the bodys resources are strained, or because the legs are too brittle, ect)

this is how cheetas came to be so fast in the first place

>> No.1175486

>>1175465
But if the faster gazelles are the only ones who reproduce, wouldn't the predators die from lack of food since all the gazelles would be faster than they are?

>> No.1175490

>>1175475
only SOME of their pray can outrun them, they eat the slow ones, remember?

Also many many many species died over these 3.5 billion years.

And yes, it is an equilibrium. But not made by a divine creator, but by evolution itself.

>> No.1175493

>>1175458

If after this explanation, you still don't get it, there is no doubt in my mind you are a troll.

Let's say a gazelle has a mutation, the effect of this mutation is that it only develops 3 legs, a gazelle with 3 legs in unlikely to be able to outrun a lion, and would be eaten, as a result, unable to pass it's genes resulting in the 3 leg mutation.
HOWFUCKINGEVER
If a different gazelle has another mutation, in which it develops more muscles, this would help it in avoiding being eaten by a lion, as the lion would more likely catch a slower gazelle and eat that while the hench gazelle escapes. As a result, it lives, and as a result of that, it passes on it's mutation which causes the larger muscle mass.
ALSO EVEOLUTION HAPPENS ON A SCALE WHICH WE CAN SEE
for instance, a bacteria, LIKE MRSA gaining an immunity to a certain antibiotic which happened not too long ago IS EVOLUTION HAPPENING.
I swear to fucking god

>> No.1175495

>>1175483
But wouldn't the "random change" in gazelles happen first, leading to them being faster than all their predators? I can understand predators catching up, but wouldn't they at first be too slow to catch up and die out before a mutation unless God intervened?

>> No.1175497

>>1175486
again: the predators are also evolving, at no slower a rate and through the same process

as gazelles get faster, so too do predators

>> No.1175498

>>1175475

not all pray outruns them, and they also get faster. and the equilibrium happens naturally.

more gazelles than cheetas = more food for cheetas> more cheeatas
more cheetas than gazelles = less food for cheetas>cheatas die> gazelle population goes back to normal

read a book about evolution and ecology please.

>> No.1175513

>>1175477
As a guess (there might be someone better informed here) the being higher mutation gave them access to higher leaves in the trees, which becomes food only for them.

Now, being higher means that you have food only you can access (probably wrong, but eh) this allows you to have more descendents, etc...

>> No.1175517

>>1175486
No, it is not that there are the same amount of gazelles and predators. There are only few predators and many gazelles.

Sometimes that happens, though. If there are too many predators and only few pray, the predators die. But those who can survive with just a small amount of food will have more offspring etc etc.

>> No.1175522

>>1175498
>>1175497
Okay, I think I understand it now. Thanks for helping me understand, though most of you are intolerant asses.

>> No.1175530

The Selfish Gene is a good way to learn about how evolution works from a Gene prospective and The Greatest Show on Earth is a good book showing the evidence for evolution.

>> No.1175533

>>1175493
Also to change from gazelles becaus OP also doesn't understand basic ecology, I will expand on my MRSA point:
It's all about survival of the fittest - the basic principle of evolution, and bacteria have been around a lot longer than us, so they're pretty good at it.

Some strains' genetic makeup will give them a slight advantage when it comes to fighting off antibiotic attack.

So when weaker strains encounter antibiotics, they die, while these naturally resistant strains may prove harder to kill.

This means that next time you encounter Staph, it is more likely to be one which has survived an antibiotic encounter, i.e. a resistant one.
Over time, the bulk of the Staph strains will carry resistance genes, and further mutations may only add to their survival ability.

Strains that manage to carry two or three resistance genes will have extraordinary powers of resistance to antibiotics.

>> No.1175536

>>1175513

i understand that, but from what did they evolve and why did they develop so high necks, it cannot be because they saw food up there and said "hey let's make longer necks"

>> No.1175540

>>1175513
That is not wrong, I think. I dont know for sure, but I think this is pretty much why there are giraffes.

>> No.1175552

>>1175536
That was a random process. They were "lucky". All the other species that did not evolve long necks went extinct.

>> No.1175553

>>1175536
They evolved from a creature which would resemble a shot necked giraffe, and it's purely random that they mutate a long neck.

>> No.1175570

>>1175522

no problem, but next time you better try to inform yourself first than going to 4chan and being surprised about ignorant asses.

best thing is to read about evolution and ecology, ecology is an important part of evolution.

>> No.1175571

Ok. I just read the entire thread. I have a simular veiw point to OP's.

If god didn't intervene, then eventually all the predators on earth would simply die out, because their pray would evolve past it.

>> No.1175578

>>1175533

I agree with your point, but for the love of god don't bring bacteria into a debate on evolution. Evolution implies speciation, and bacteria don't have species in the same way eukaryotic organisms do.

>> No.1175581

>>1175571
Christ, the prey isn't the only thing evolving, predators also evolve to compensate. SO lions would get faster to keep uo with gazelles basically.

>> No.1175589

>>1175536
The what is easy, mostly search for something similar and that's probably their primitive (or their successor!) what's most similar to giraffes? quadrupeds that eat green, so, for me, horses.

As for why to evolve, it's a problem in your mind, no one chooses to evolve, you get born, and have characteristics, that might be better or worse, and if they're better (a long neck that helps reach higher) you get better probabilities to survive.

And since the neck is longer, your descendants can have them even longer.

>> No.1175596

>>1175578
yes, it does actually, because strains are a subset of species, and are entirely relevant

>> No.1175600

>>1175581


So the predator is now evolving with the pray, hense they kill more of the pray, hense the pray evolves more past the predator, and the predator slowly dies off from lack of food. because nothing is killing the predator so it can not be naturally selected either. So god must have saved the animals.

>> No.1175620

>>1175600
The fast predators would be able to catch the slower prey and the slow predators will die out.
It's not like the whole population of the prey become fast at the same time.

>> No.1175622

>>1175600
No, the predator then evolves again, then the prey again, and it continues in a loop like that

>> No.1175624

How do the predators evolve if nothing is killing them? do the predators have a predator?

>> No.1175627

>>1175624
Something is killing them, starvation from being not able to catch prey

>> No.1175639

>>1175627


so the pray can now outrun the predator? and can escape them? so the predators die off? cant they eat grass?

>> No.1175644

This is the stupidest thread I've seen in ages. Stop trying to teach him about evolution, he doesn't understand because he's too concerned with the individual animal instead of the greater gene pool. If he really wanted to know about evolution, he'd read more about it in books.

>> No.1175660

>>1175644
>implying sage does anything
Also, if you'd choose to keep reading, you'd see that OP understands a little more now and left. Some new faggot is keeping it going.

>> No.1175670

I can't tell anymore, is this a troll thread?

>> No.1175673

Ok... so i get that the pray is killed by the predator, and the predator is killed by lack of pray. but wouldnt one eventually die off?

>> No.1175674

>>1175368
OH WOW at the pic.

Who the hell are you guys? I thought all atheists were cool people who keep their beliefs for themselves, and never met so aggressive anti-religious people like you irl who'd make retarded genocidal jokes.

And you also look like a dumbass incapable of discerning trolling from candid questions, congratulations.

>> No.1175675

>>1175639

please read the thread.

>> No.1175683
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1175683

>>1175674
That hurt man...

>> No.1175689

>>1175639
I knew this was going to be a troll thread when i started posting, in the hope that someone seriously wondering about evolution would learn something, my 10 year old brother understand this with no problem.
TL:DR NO REAL CHRISTIAN WOULD EVEN ASK ABOUT EVOLUTION ANYWAY

>> No.1175694

>>1175670

i think OP wasn't really trolling, because he said he understands now and left. but now another faggot is refusing to read the thread and asks the same questions as OP, so he is probably a troll.

>> No.1175705

>>1175674

you must be new here? /sci/ is full of people like that, don't be surprised.

>> No.1175716

>>1175689

by "real christian" you mean christian creationist fundamentalist from the south of the USA?

>> No.1175718

>>1175694
Or OP was a subtle troll who realized he was losing, maybe.

>> No.1175724

>>1175716
Exactly

>> No.1175730

>>1175716
Who must also be a true scotman

>> No.1175736
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1175736

>>1175718

>> No.1175739

>>1175724

well, then your definition of christian is quite wrong. please stop putting all the nutjobs under the same name as the rest of the 2,3 billion people in the world.

>> No.1175750

>>1175739
Fine, I retract my previous statement and apply it to EVERY CHRISTIAN

>> No.1175751

>>1175730

that would be if i've i said they are not christians which is not the case.

>> No.1175757

Lets get something cleared up.

Abiogenesis is the theory of how the first thing that can be called "life" could have come into existence by chemical processes. Once there is life, Evolution is the theory which explains how new types of life can come from it.

Evolution is not a theory of the beginning of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

>> No.1175782

>>1175750

so in your opinion no christians believe in evolution? you know that the catholic church recognizes evolution and the big bang theory? and they make half of christiantiy?

please try to be accurate with your statements next time or even better, don't talk about subjects you are not informed.

>> No.1175791

>>1175782
This is the main problem with being Catholic, we get the bad rap for pretty much everything Christians do but most other Christians don't like us either....

>> No.1175794

>>1175782
Every thread like this is created by supposedly "christians" so in my personal opinion, it appears that every christian which posts on /sci/ is either a troll or really doesn't believe in evolution.

>> No.1175799

>>1175794
Christian =/= Catholic

>> No.1175802

>>1175799
you know what i mean

>> No.1175803

>>1175802
Yes, and it's idiotic.

>> No.1175807

>>1175794
>in my personal opinion

Yes, that's the key wording here

>> No.1175809

>>1175803
Fine, any monotheistic religion which believes in the teachings of jesus

>> No.1175819

>>1175794

probably 90% trolls, 10% real.

anyway, christianity doesn't really revolve around evolution.

>>1175799

what?

>> No.1175821
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1175821

>>1175794
>opinion

>> No.1175825

>>1175819
Well, what I mean is Catholicism isn't all of Christianity.

>> No.1175844

>>1175791

they are just jealous ;)

but it don't really see protestants or orthodox in Europe making problems or hating on the c. church or each other.

which brings me to the question, why is the situation in America that what it is?

>> No.1175845

>>1175463
What? Mutations and natural selection aren't really separate. Natural selection slowly magnifies beneficial mutations by killing off those without them and allowing those with them to reproduce or weeds out bad ones by killing the individuals with them.

>> No.1175864

>>1175845

uhm, he never said that they are seperate, and even said they were connected.

>> No.1175884

Hey guys. If evolution exists, why are there still religious people? Surely you smarter atheists would attract more girls who are also intelligent. How come God keeps theism alive and atheism so small? Looks like you're wrong about evolution, faggots.

>> No.1175900

I see two possibilities
1. OP, in fact doesn't understand the current theory of evolution
2. OP is a troll
Occum's Razor says OP's a troll.

>> No.1176132

>>1175884
Because your books tell you to have sex without condom, and not abort any kids, meanwhile we can use condom or abort if we want.

Suddenly, those ideas seem a good way for the people up to control you and get more kids, no?

>> No.1176164

>>1175416
YOU DENSE, MOTHERFUCKER.
I'm not catholic, but nondemonminational, and the pope, and most christian religions belive in evolution. Only creationist don't and it's a small 500k nutjobs that belong in that religion. Go there if you want to, nothing of value would be lost.

>> No.1176198

OP check out this evolution applet

http://www.probability.ca/jeff/java/evolution.html

>> No.1176223

>>1175340
lolwut

>> No.1176380

>>1175409
time and death actually

>> No.1176390

sage

>> No.1177256

>>1176198
So after 20 mins my amoebas have a freq around 80, a size of 12 and rot of 90 and span of 58

>> No.1178379
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1178379