/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.11623137]

what does /sci/ think about this data?

[Anonymous No.11623152]

Just a flew

[Anonymous No.11623244]

>>11623137
if you think that that image says it all, you don't understand the problem, even when it has been repeated many times.

[Anonymous No.11623249]

>>11623244
If you think you can state the full problem, taking every single factor into account then your a charlatan, just like everyone enforcing the lockdown.

[Anonymous No.11623250]

>>11623137
The Santa Clara and LA antibody studies were extremely poorly done and as a result massively overestimated antibody prevelance.

Those giant denominators are throwing off the right side's mortality rates by about 5x-10x.

[Anonymous No.11623251]

>>11623137
It's based on data from studies that weren't triple blind, peer reviewed by at least three dozen reviewers, and it didn't include population groups from around the globe representing all of humanity. Therefore, it is all invalid.

[Anonymous No.11623257]

>>11623251
>triple blind
If you think a single study in academia is remotely blind, then you are probably blind.

[Anonymous No.11623259]

>>11623137
Just a flew

[Anonymous No.11623261]

>>11623250
See, this guy gets it. For your safety, everyone needs to be locked away indefinitely. If that means putting the entire planet into a deep depression that ends up with a famine killing billions, it's worth it to keep grandma from getting sick and dying two months earlier than she would have.

[Anonymous No.11623264]

>>11623251
The studies got participants through Facebook ads. Advertising free COVID testing. During a COVID testing shortage. You're a smart guy so you can tell me how that would play out.

The study also used antibody tests with a 0.5-1.5% false positive rate. And got a 1.5% antibody prevalence rate.

[Anonymous No.11623266]

>>11623261
Smart anon.

[Anonymous No.11623271]

>>11623257
I am, which is what qualifies me to conduct such studies because I can't see the results so I am not biased by them. I can safely come up with the best conclusions on my own. That's what triple blind means. The subjects don't know what group they're in, the researchers don't know what group anyone is in, and me, the reviewer, doesn't know what data resulted from any group. Using the blind to conduct triple blind studies is the only way we are going to defeat this virus.

[Anonymous No.11623272]

>>11623137
>65+
>1%
>source1:cdc
>source2:some burgerland shithole study full of conditions
LOL, angl*ids have no shame

[Anonymous No.11623274]

>>11623261
Oh I support locking seniorfags up and eating the 1 in 1000 young people dying (though as you know that's politically impossible because seniorfags vote).

Mutation risk is already off the charts with all of the 3rd world getting it, so there's no benefit cutting down case numbers there.

Nor will flattening the curve do much considering how little ICUs and ventilators help.

But if you're going to be a disingenuous shit about the average IFR being 1%, I'm going to call your dumbass out. Same as the idiots who believe in astrology or Q.

[Anonymous No.11623279]

>>11623271
lol

[Anonymous No.11623281]

>>11623261
>If that means putting the entire planet into a deep depression that ends up with a famine killing billions

This is such bullshit. Explain the sequence of events from quarantine to famine.

[Anonymous No.11623283]

>>11623137
>>11623250
Oh yeah and that's not even getting how flu deaths on the left side are actually overestimated by God knows how much. Ballpark of 6x.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/comparing-covid-19-deaths-to-flu-deaths-is-like-comparing-apples-to-oranges/

[Anonymous No.11623287]

>>11623274
Brilliant response, Mr. Gates. What's important here is autistic slavishness to numbers. People and society are of little consequence especially if they're pesky enough to not conform to my models. People should happily volunteer to die in order to make the models right. Life, liberty, and all that nonsense means nothing if we can't force reality to match our models. For without models, how can we ever know how to make reality conform?

[Anonymous No.11623288]

>>11623281
Food doesn't just appear in the supermarket.

[Anonymous No.11623290]

>>11623261
>killing billions
I hope it fucking does

[Anonymous No.11623293]

>>11623287
>People should happily volunteer to die in order to make the models right
As opposed to people giving up their freedom and right?
Historically, it has always been touted as a good thing for men to die for the people's freedom.

[Anonymous No.11623294]

>>11623281
If corn can't leave its crib, how are Africans going to eat it?

[Anonymous No.11623299]

>>11623293
Now we can give up both! Death by famine while people have no freedom. It's the best of both worlds! Win-win!

[Anonymous No.11623300]

>>11623287
Knowing that youngfags can frolic freely and literally treat it as just a flu while senile Boomers like yourself will die in droves should drive policy. And that comes from numbers. Same as GDP or the price of lean hogs telling us if we're nearing collapse or famine.

[Anonymous No.11623305]

>>11623288
Wrong!

[Anonymous No.11623306]

>>11623288
We are under quarantine right now and the food supply chain has not been disrupted. What specifically do you expect to change?

[Anonymous No.11623314]

>>11623300
No, this is a civil rights and social justice issue. If any person is locked away, we must all be locked away. United were stand, divided we fall! No one is more equal that others. All must be saved. All must be locked up. All must starve equally.

[Anonymous No.11623315]

>>11623293
>Historically, it has always been touted as a good thing for men to die for the people's freedom.

Shut the fuck up boomer. The right for my at-risk family members to survive this is not superseded by your right to shove your face full of dine-in Olive Garden. Being a fat consumer fuck and spreading the virus to everyone is not 'freedom'.

[Anonymous No.11623316]

>>11623306
He's probably half understanding and puking out articles about food suppliers changing from commercial/restaurant to individual/grocery markets. That mixed with the Tyson foods CEO crying in the NYT how mean old social distancing measures are impossible and forcing the illegals in his meat packing plants to not butcher cheap meat as efficiently.

[Anonymous No.11623318]

>>11623306
Prices of several items have increased. Each increment leaves out some demographic, and they lose their food. People are also out of work right now, and so if your government is less socialist, e.g. America, then you're fucked.

[Anonymous No.11623321]

>>11623306
The Piggly Wiggly was out of toilet paper last time I went. How can I have breakfast without my egg soaked toilet paper omelet?

[Anonymous No.11623327]

>>11623314
Look, buddy, we have genetic sequencing. If I could waive a magic wand I wouldn't have anyone quarantined.

I'd just have cops trained in contact tracing and people who infect others liable for damage in their victims. Basic indemnity and manslaughter fairness rules.

[Anonymous No.11623330]

>>11623315
Maybe your family wouldn't be at risk if they knew the joy of the unlimited breadsticks basket and never ending pasta bowl.

[Anonymous No.11623336]

>>11623327
You sound like a peeping tom.

[Anonymous No.11623338]

>>11623318
>Prices of several items have increased. Each increment leaves out some demographic, and they lose their food.

That is not how famines happen. Even the Great Depression never reached the level of mass-starvation.

What you could have said was, "lengthy quarantine measures will increase food insecurity in the US without govt compensation." That's realistic. Predicting famine is not.

[Anonymous No.11623339]

>>11623315
Yes, we should be in permanent lockdown forever in case someone might spread the flu to an at-risk person as well. Also, no more cars, because they kill people. No more alcohol or cigarettes either. No more guns. We must line all of the ground, and all walls with foam, and we can never leave our house in case someone might cause another to die.
I don't give a fuck about you or your family; you should have taken care of your health if you don't want to die of a literal cold, faggot. I hope your whole family dies of corona, you cunt.

[Anonymous No.11623344]

>>11623338
Sure famine is an exaggeration, but that should have been obvious from the guy's original comment, that billions would die.

[Anonymous No.11623345]

>>11623336
You sound like a senile Boomer out of his depth and in denial that anything bad could ever happen in his world. Or that he'd ever have to take responsibility for anything.

Anyway it's getting late. Remember, you've got easily a 90, even 95% survival rate. Those are good odds!

[Anonymous No.11623348]

>>11623330
Or maybe they are the fat fucks.

[Anonymous No.11623350]

>>11623339
>not going to be permanent
>cars are a utility - not a virus that kills people
>alcohol and cigarettes only kill with consent, not other people

Any other questions?

>I hope your whole family dies of corona, you cunt

They won't because we're taking it seriously - but your retarded bloodline is fucked.
If you don't think COVID-19 is a big deal, sign away your rights to medical treatment, you pussy.

[Anonymous No.11623362]

>>11623350
>not going to be permanent
The flu comes every year, and kills people.
>cars are a utility - not a virus that kills people
Ever heard of people die from getting hit by a car?
>alcohol and cigarettes only kill with consent, not other people
Patently false; drunk drivers kill plenty. Second hand smoke certainly takes at least some non-zero time off of a persons life.
I'm using identical logic to you. One's right to live supersedes another's right to do anything.
>your retarded bloodline is fucked.
Nope, I actually take care of my health, so I'm fine.
>sign away your rights to medical treatment, you pussy.
Already have, bitch. I got nothing to worry about, because I'm not a weak little faggot.

[Anonymous No.11623367]

>>11623362
>Patently false; drunk drivers kill plenty. Second hand smoke certainly takes at least some non-zero time off of a persons life.

"ALRIGHT ALEX, I'LL TAKE: THINGS THAT ARE ALREADY FUCKING ILLEGAL FOR $1000"

[Anonymous No.11623369]

>>11623367
>It's illegal so it doesn't happen.
Making it illegal doesn't prevent it. Banning all alcohol consumption, and manufacturing of alcohol will prevent it.
>B-b-b-but banning it doesn't work
It does with the death penalty.

[Anonymous No.11623379]

>>11623369
>Making it illegal doesn't prevent it.

Literally did for both drunk driving and public smoking. Alcohol-related motor fatalities in the US have decreased by almost 40% in the past 40 years since MADD was founded. Likewise, I haven't seen a person smoking an illegal cigarette in a restaurant since it went illegal nationwide.

Have any other bad and self-contradictory analogies to pivot to?

[Anonymous No.11623384]

>>11623379
>Alcohol-related motor fatalities in the US have decreased by almost 40%
>Not by 100%
Either it doesn't happen or it still happens.
Also, smoking is still legal in public areas.

[Anonymous No.11623386]

>>11623384
>Either it doesn't happen or it still happens.

Is that how you think numbers work? That's kinda cute.

[Anonymous No.11623397]

>>11623367
Some Americans may have felt uneasy 35 years ago when DUI laws, DWI checkpoints, seatbelt laws, and car liability insurance laws were started, but most people felt that the experts must be right.

Pro-police state shows like "COPS" and "America's Most Wanted" were then aired, neighborhood watch groups were formed, "get tough on crime" candidates were elected, and laws allowing mandatory minimums, IMBRA, 3 strikes laws, curfews, police militarization, teen boot camps, school metal detectors, private prisons, and chain gangs were enacted.

Nanny state smoking laws then started appearing.

When 9/11 happened, the Patriot Act was passed, NSA wiretapping, no knock raids, take down notices, no fly lists, terror watch lists, Constitution free zones, stop and frisk, kill switches, National Security Letters, DNA databases, kill lists, FBAR, FATCA, Operation Chokepoint, TSA groping, civil forfeiture, CIA torture, NDAA indefinite detention, secret FISA courts, FEMA camps, laws requiring passports for domestic travel, IRS laws denying passports for tax debts, gun and ammo stockpiles, laws outlawing protesting, Jade Helm, sneak and peek warrants, policing for profit, no refusal blood checkpoints, license plate readers, redlight cameras, speed cameras, FBI facial and voice recognition, tattoo databases, gun bans, the end to the right to silence, free speech bans, searches without warrants, CISPA, SOPA, private prison quotas, supermax prisons, FOSTA, sex offender registration laws, and sex offender restriction laws were allowed.

Now that the USA is a total police state, Americans are finding out that changing anything is impossible and that freedom is lost forever.

[Anonymous No.11623405]

>>11623386
>100%-40%=0%.
I'm quite certain that numbers don't work like that.

[Anonymous No.11623409]

>>11623397
>preventing deaths by drunk driving and smoking in restaurants is the same thing as wiretapping my houses and throwing me in GITMO because I'm a republican and have literally no brain

[Anonymous No.11623412]

>>11623397
You realize buddy's literally on board and is wholeheartedly supporting a police state.

[Anonymous No.11623420]

[Anonymous No.11623428]

>>11623345
Survival rates during civil wars are much lower than that.

[Anonymous No.11623437]

>>11623338
Who said the famine would be in the US? Americans are so blind to the chaos going on in places like Latin America right now due to those governments following the example of the US in shutting everything down. Not every country has as much slack in their system as the United States. The social unrest from these lockdowns are going to far exceed to death toll from the virus.

[Anonymous No.11623454]

>11623350
>>11623339
>alcohol and cigarettes only kill with consent, not other people
>someone puts a gun to my head and forces me to go outside
>being this retarded

[Anonymous No.11623457]

>>11623454
you might not realize this because mommy handles your life, but the rest of us need to do things like buying our own groceries. the longer this pandemic lasts, the more inevitable it is that we're gonna get it

[Anonymous No.11623462]

>>11623457
>>>11623454 (You)
>you might not realize this because mommy handles your life, but the rest of us need to do things like buying our own groceries.
Oh jeez, it's almost like you're supposed to keep food stores in you garage or pantry. I'm glad that big brain figured out how to prep.
>the longer this pandemic lasts, the more inevitable it is that we're gonna get it
Everyone is going to get it, which is why the lock down is stupid. 2/2 there bud. I'm glad we settled this.

[Anonymous No.11623465]

>>11623462
>>11623454
I'm not even sure what you are trying to say. You need help with formatting to get your point across.

[Anonymous No.11623466]

>>11623462
>Oh jeez, it's almost like you're supposed to keep food stores in you garage or pantry

imagine being both a dipshit prepper and also wanting to call off the one worthwhile use-case of your paranoid bullshit

[Anonymous No.11623484]

>>11623465
I heard having a higher reading comprehension helps.

>>11623466
Imagine never prepping for an actual disaster and living off of the government titty. Imagine wanting quarantine so your government can become more authoritarian. Imagine being a statist bootlicker. Imagine being jealous that people have what you don't so you resort to ad hominems. Imagine being such a colossal faggot. Imagine.

[Anonymous No.11623491]

>>11623484
It's got nothing to do with reading comprehension, it's that your points appear self-contradictory.

[Anonymous No.11623494]

>>11623491
Because your reading comprehension is too low.

[Anonymous No.11623521]

So if this is just the flu why are so many people dying?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/28/us/coronavirus-death-toll-total.html

What's killing these people?

[Anonymous No.11623533]

>>11623494
Explain to me why you respond to >>11623339 as though you disagree with the person who wrote it, but then everything you say basically agrees with them.

[Anonymous No.11623540]

>>11623137
What program did you make that with?

[Anonymous No.11623550]

Morons.

They are low BECAUSE of our actions

[Anonymous No.11623554]

>>11623533
I meant to respond to the person he responded to

[Anonymous No.11623556]

>>11623554
See, my reading comprehension isn't that bad. :P

[Anonymous No.11623558]

>>11623137
It looks incorrect, no? Isn't mortality rate around 2%, in best case?

[Anonymous No.11623560]

>>11623556
My bad

[Anonymous No.11623591]

>>11623283
>https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/comparing-covid-19-deaths-to-flu-deaths-is-like-comparing-apples-to-oranges/
good read, thx

[Anonymous No.11623606]

>>11623591
>scientificamerican
pop-sci faggotry for soiboiz

[Anonymous No.11623659]

>>11623606
https://www.logicalfallacies.org/genetic-fallacy.html

[Anonymous No.11623684]

>the flu is spread wantonly every season with very few taking specific measures to prevent its spread
>covid put the world into global lockdown, which in turn created widespread germophobia
>covid still has a higher mortality rate
Like I get OP's just baiting but god damn the people who say "just a flu" are so fucking retarded. Have they stopped once to think about what would have happened if we just continued business as usual? My buddy goes out and fights a small cougar with his bare hands, and I go out armed to the teeth and fight a grizzly. We both walk away with a few scratches that are equivalently bad. My buddy remarks that the animals we fought were equally dangerous.

[Anonymous No.11623923]

>>11623362
>The flu comes every year, and kills people.
Do they have to dig mass graves every year despite quarantine for the flu?

[Anonymous No.11623986]

>>11623521

Why are the axes on all these charts labelled at only one point?

[Anonymous No.11623999]

>>11623684
This this this

You also gotta remember that 'flu' as we colloquially call it is tons and tons of different viruses. This one one virus is doing the work of a plethora of others.

[Anonymous No.11624012]

>>11623250
>Those giant denominators are throwing off the right side's mortality rates by about 5x-10x.
If the covfefevirus really were as deadly as you claim then younger people would be dying at relatively higher rates than they do to the flu. That's what a more serious disease does: it kills younger people. Because the age distribution looks exactly like the seasonal flu (10-15% of which is actually coronavirus, not influenza), it is roughly as deadly as the seasonal flu.

Corollary: if it were even less deadly than the seasonal flu, then the percentage of old people dying from it would be even higher, relative to the seasonal flu.

[Anonymous No.11624014]

>>11623923
So what? Millions and millions of people die every year. Why should I give a single fuck now that the cause is different?

[Anonymous No.11624018]

>>11623999
>You also gotta remember that 'flu' as we colloquially call it is tons and tons of different viruses. This one one virus is doing the work of a plethora of others.
No it's not. Those other viruses are doing the same thing that they do every year and all of the deaths that they cause are getting attributed to the coroneevirus.

[Anonymous No.11624027]

>>11623386
Boomers don't have the ability to comprehend relative risk
It's why you see so many of them not wearing masks because the masks don't 100% guarantee you won't get sick

[Anonymous No.11624029]

>>11623550
Why are doomers unable to read graphs, especially labels and legends? >>11623420

The models for lockdowns were just as bad as the models for do-nothing. Doomers should be required to get a bullseye tat on their foreheads so everyone can show them their appreciation once the fighting to restore liberty is done.

[Anonymous No.11624032]

>>11623550
>They are low BECAUSE of our actions
The curves in sweden are not different from the other eurpean countries. There is no empirical evidence supporting your claim.
But sure, it was clear a month ago when some claimed it to be "flu-like", that if they were right, then the happening-people would come with this "argument".

[Anonymous No.11624044]

>>11624012
>WHY THE HECKING HECK IS A CORONAVIRUS NOT ACTING LIKE AN INFLUENZA VIRUS? THE HECK?

[Anonymous No.11624056]

>>11624027
Boomers don't wear masks because they're chads and not pussified skinny-jeans-wearing millenials who are afraid about every last chemical which might cause cancer. The last real man in America was born in 1964.

>>11624044
I don't know how to interpret that sarcasm but the coronavirus is very statistically similar to the flu in terms of death profile and fatality rate.

[Anonymous No.11624077]

>>11624056
>I don't know how to interpret that sarcasm
I was making fun of your statement
>That's what a more serious disease does: it kills younger people
It's perfectly possible that you get a serious disease that kills 100% of old people but 0% of young people
This would still be serious if it became endemic as it would effectively lower average life expectancy FOR the younger people

[Anonymous No.11624099]

>>11623397
explain words

[Anonymous No.11624101]

>>11623249
I've doesn't need to state the full problem, that's why you're wrong. Stop thinking like a child.

[Anonymous No.11624102]

>>11624099
He's trying to say that incremental generational loss of freedom happens constantly and eventually it's too late to get those freedoms back
>also implying it's too late

[Anonymous No.11624103]

>>11624056
fuck gen

[Anonymous No.11624105]

>>11623137
The best objective data right now is the change in death rate.
/sci/ agree? Or am I missing something.
https://voxeu.org/article/covid-19-italy-analysis-death-registry-data

[Anonymous No.11624106]

>>11623137
We don't shut down everything for flu season.
Take your stats and file them in the bodily cavity of your choice.

[Anonymous No.11624108]

>>11624105

[Anonymous No.11624120]

>>11624108
This one is unfair Becuase New York isn’t like most of the country in terms of risk of transmission,
> Deaths in New York City Are More Than Double the Usual Total
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/10/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.html

[Anonymous No.11624126]

>>11624102
oh
i'll be honest with you my brain isn't working properly or else i probably would have understood that post. i haven't eaten or slept in like 16 hours due to this quarantine messing up my sense of reality and i'm really starving. i just received my order of pancakes and iced coffee and some weird health vegetable juice, from the comfort of my own quarantined apartment and i'm about to start eating
right now i don't really give a fuck about freedom. as long as i have enough money to support my lifestyle the rest of you all can go to hell. i'm sleeping after this. good night anon.

[Anonymous No.11624147]

>>11624126
It's definitely not just you
It was worded retardedly

[Anonymous No.11624241]

>>11624032
Based Swedes demolishing every argument the lockdown cucks have.

[Anonymous No.11624246]

>>11623137
they didnt pay the docs enough to push it more as 10%

[Anonymous No.11624424]

>>11624032
Obviously the risk of transmission will lower significantly if you significantly reduce the amount of contacts. That's not even science, it's just common sense.

>The curves in sweden are not different from the other eurpean countries.
Yes, they are. Per capita Sweden has significantly more deaths than a lot of other European countries like Germany f.ex.

Also Sweden didn't do absolutely nothing. They employed social distancing and hygiene measures. It's just that they are less severe and more based on individual responsibility than in most other countries. I seriously doubt this way would work in the US where half the population is retarded.

[Anonymous No.11624446]

>>11623137
If mortality rate is not the concern then the infectious rate of the disease is the main factor and that could cause shortage of hospital capacity if

[Anonymous No.11624491]

>>11624424
>Obviously the risk of transmission will lower significantly if you significantly reduce the amount of contacts. That's not even science, it's just common sense.
"Obviously", "common sense", that's not how science works. Things are more complicated in real life then in a 1-min. implemented SIR-model. Either you have empiric evidence or you are guessing. Either you rely on science or you "do politics".
Think about the Monty Hall problem for example - it was just "common sense" among mathematicians that you don't have to switch doors.

>Per capita Sweden has significantly more deaths than a lot of other European countries like Germany f.ex.
Yes, and less then italy, spain, belgium, france, ...
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

>Also Sweden didn't do absolutely nothing. They employed social distancing and hygiene measures. It's just that they are less severe and more based on individual responsibility than in most other countries. I seriously doubt this way would work in the US where half the population is retarded.
Ok, fair point. I agree with this one.

[Anonymous No.11624503]

>>11623339
>>11623923
18+ website

[Anonymous No.11624506]

>>11624503
meant to reply to >>11624014

[Anonymous No.11624609]

lol, americans are fucking retarded. the virus also affects young fat people, and americans are known for being fatasses.... yet still fail to see how that will affect death rates.

>>11623306
>food supply chain has not been disrupted
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/27/tyson-foods-chairman-warns-food-supply-chain-is-breaking-as-coronavirus-forces-plant-closures.html

>>11623437
>Latin America right now due to those governments following the example of the US in shutting everything down
not sure if you noticed, but the US was very, VERY late to the party. no, govts aren't "following the example of the US"

>>11624029
you must be retarded not to understand what >>11623550 is saying.

>>11624032
>The curves in sweden are not different from the other eurpean countries
like the ones that got hit the hardest? yeah, why would that be? perhaps it's because they didn't implement lockdowns, not even partial lockdowns. from what I've read, they don't even have laws for that, so they are trying to legalize them.
see this grid: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries sort the data by deaths/1M pop and tell me how much of an example Sweden is

[Anonymous No.11624615]

>>11624491
>Yes, and less then italy, spain, belgium, france, ...
all countries with far more international travel, unlike the other scandinavian countries which also have similar pop density and other factors that control for r.

[Anonymous No.11624622]

>>11623250
What about New York study or Sweden study Or Denmark study? Are those also fake news?

[Anonymous No.11624637]

>>11624609
80% of Americans are fat, yet the death rate per infected population is same as FLU.

[Anonymous No.11624645]

>>11624637
>80% of Americans are fat, yet the death rate per infected population is same as FLU.
sure thing m8, 65k people die each couple of months every year in the US

[Anonymous No.11624658]

>>11624645
Yeah but that's discounting every other co-morbid issues. Doctors are pressured to raise the coronavirus death rate because of the political situation. Yes, its a fucking political battle, not a scientific or medical one.

[Anonymous No.11624663]

>>11624658
>Doctors are pressured to raise the coronavirus death rate because of the political situation. Yes, its a fucking political battle, not a scientific or medical one.
man, having psychological problems must be ugly and sad.
btw, what political side are doctors affiliated to in your weird fantasy?

[Anonymous No.11624678]

>>11624663
>what political side are doctors affiliated
Whatever the local government wants the local hospital admins to report? Youtube censored actual doctors from speaking out about what is going on in the hospitals across the country. Doctors in actual hospitals working on field are censored for disagreeing with the populist fear driven narrative.

[Anonymous No.11624718]

>>11624678
>Youtube censored actual doctors
ah, right, the osteopath "doctors"...
get your head checked, absolute retard.

[Anonymous No.11624773]

>>11624718
NOOOOOO THEY'RE NOT REAL DOCTORS!!! THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN THE NARRATIVE!!!

[Anonymous No.11624954]

>>11623137
>kills the same amount as the flu does in a whole year in just a couple months WITH massive lockdowns everywhere

[Anonymous No.11624981]

>>11624018
Then why are so many people dying if it's just typical flu?

[Anonymous No.11624989]

>>11624032
Yeah, this isn't even remotely true.

[Anonymous No.11625155]

>>11624032
>The curves in sweden are not different from the other eurpean countries
Yes they are. Significantly worse than neighbouring european countries. Significantly worse than much more densely populated Denmark.
And they're even fucking outright euthanizing the old people by giving them morphine shots and locking them in their rooms until they expire at nursing homes as "treatment" in order to not overwhelm their health care. Something that's completely counter indicated for anyone with problems breathing.

Even their cocky chief epidemiologist is starting to admit that he might have chosen the wrong approach.

[Anonymous No.11625226]

noooo just wait for 2 more weeks you can't just say it's another flu!!!

[Anonymous No.11625291]

>>11623137
How many flu deaths in the USA in 2017-2018? Around 5k. This isn't the flu.

[Anonymous No.11625305]

>>11624622
>What about New York study or Sweden study Or Denmark study? Are those also fake news?
The problem is we simply don't have a test that we know is nearly 100% accurate. We know the PCR tests are flawed, and the antibody tests are being verified by comparing them to the PCR results.

[Anonymous No.11625318]

the IFR of flu is not that high. Maybe be CFR, but IFR is 10x lower. (AFAIR from sources.)

[Anonymous No.11625333]

>>11625155
"They take old people and cut their hands, because they do not wash them."
Jesus, provide source for that stupid "morphine" shitty claim. I bet you've read it in financial times or another clickbaiter "source".
Pic source: EuroMOMO.

[Anonymous No.11625339]

>>11625305
No test will ever be perfectly accurate. That's why all tests should be assigned confidence level rating. We were told there would be dozens of millions of people dying, but nothing happened. What the fuck happened?

[Anonymous No.11625348]

>>11625333
Cool, now do Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Denmark, and set the date from 2015 to current.

[Anonymous No.11625356]

>>11625333
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIaO_CvbWZ4

Starts in Swedish, they switch to English for your edification. The interviewer is a doctor, the interviewed is a nurse working at a nursing home in Gävleborg where it happens.
https://samnytt.se/sjukskoterska-aldre-kvavs-till-dods-utan-syrgas-kan-plagas-i-dagar/

They're not allowed to send them off to hospital.

And for fucks sake, compare that curve to Denmark, Norway or Finland you intellectually dishonest nonce. London alone has almost as many people as Sweden has in total. You can't fucking compare the two because of population density. Denmark has three times the population density of Sweden and much better handling of this shit.

[Anonymous No.11625357]

>>11625339
>We were told there would be dozens of millions of people dying, but nothing happened.
We're told it's just the flu, and NYC had its worst year this century, and Europe is having its worst year since at least 2015. Is this the plague? No. Is this comparable to seasonal flu averages? No.

[Anonymous No.11625376]

>>11625348
Yeah clustering is normal when it comes to epidemies, see italy:
https://www.epicentro.iss.it/en/coronavirus/bollettino/Infografica_1maggio%20ENG.pdf
75730 out of the 204,576 total confirmed in one single region.
It was not about "there is no cov in sweden" it was about "curves whitout rigide measures don't differ that much".

[Anonymous No.11625377]

>>11625357
>Is this comparable to seasonal flu averages
I think it is. Flu lasts ~4 months per year during the winter. Its been roughly 3 months ~feb/march/april for US since coronavirus. We've only had ~64K so far. Flu death avg is ~13k-60K(last year). So its literally a slightly bad flu season.

[Anonymous No.11625379]

>>11625377
It really isn't, because we don't fucking shut down EVERYTHING for flu season.

[Anonymous No.11625390]

>>11625379
Because shutdown doesn't affect anything. We literally have examples in Northern Europe between two comparable countries right next to each other with two different methods of dealing with this. Their numbers are very similar.

On top of that, for Flu season, we don't abandon the old and leave them to die. We treat them. We don't fear going to hospital during flu season in fear of death. We don't have increased amounts of rape, child abuse, domestic violence, suicide, rob someone of education, huge economic collapse, etc during FLU season because they don't have a mandatory lockdown.

[Anonymous No.11625397]

>>11625390
>We literally have examples in Northern Europe between two comparable countries right next to each other with two different methods of dealing with this. Their numbers are very similar.
Oh do tell, which countries?

[Anonymous No.11625403]

>>11625377
>Flu death avg is ~13k-60K(last year)
It's not, though. That's pneumonia deaths, and then the CDC labels pneumonia deaths as flu deaths even without a flu diagnosis. Check out the mortalities in Fluview, actual influenza deaths average about 5k per year in the USA. Many viruses are capable of causing pneumonia, and there's over a half a dozen that are common each winter. Check out the excess deaths by week in Europe. Which year is unlike the rest?

[Anonymous No.11625406]

>>11625397
>Sweden (no lockdown)
>10M population
>population density: 64 / m2
21K case

>Norway (lockdown)
>5M population
>population density: 32/ m2
7K case

[Anonymous No.11625415]

>>11625376
>it was about "curves whitout rigide measures don't differ that much".
But when you compare that region, Sweden is much worse off than its surrounding countries. Not locking down is increasing the death toll by 3 to 6 times.

[Anonymous No.11625425]

>>11625403
What do you think the hospitals are doing with coronovirus being pushed as the main cause of death for everything? Even with flu/pneumonia/etc, all deaths are labeled as coronovirus. Hospital admins are being pushed to label more deaths as coronovirus. Populism demands higher coronavirus death counts because that's what experts told them to expect. Experts who made model prediction that requires 2 million deaths in US from coronovirus by now. This has never been the case with any FLU season. So if we take the same approach to FLU as we do to coronovirus right now, we'd see numbers well into 500K+

[Anonymous No.11625431]

>>11625406
>Cases
Ok, you're fucking retarded.
I happen to live in Norway. We've had 210 deaths at an average age of ~84 years of age whereas Sweden is now at 2653 deaths.
Shall we compare to Denmark with a population density of 134 per km^2? That's more than twice the population density of Sweden. A far better comparison than my country.

9300 cases, 460 deaths.
And yeah, it's per km^2, not m^2

Sweden has gone full retard and so have you. How the fuck are those numbers even remotely "similar"?

[Anonymous No.11625433]

>>11625406
Tests per million / cases per million / deaths per million

Sweden:
11,833 / 2,131 / 263

Norway:
31,835 / 1,433 / 39

So, Norway is testing 3x as much and still only has about 75% of the cases per million. Obviously Sweden's numbers would go up significantly with more testing. Sweden's death rate is 6x higher. We can also check Euromomo for all-cause deaths. Norway is at baseline, Sweden's at its highest rate since at least 2015.

[Anonymous No.11625435]

>>11625433
We also just rolled out our own homebrewed tests, we're planning on testing 300k a month or something.

[Anonymous No.11625440]

>>11625425
>So if we take the same approach to FLU as we do to coronovirus right now, we'd see numbers well into 500K+
Please explain Europe's numbers then. How is their all-cause mortality extremely high, far higher than during a typical flu year, if not due to SARS-CoV-2.

[Anonymous No.11625484]

>>11625433
Sweden is frontloading their deaths. What is difficult to comprehend about that?

[Anonymous No.11625492]

>>11625484
Ease off the fucking copium, son.

[Anonymous No.11625499]

>>11625440
Central euro are nearly all drawn towards socialist political wing. Its not so much an issue to you guys as it is to US. Everything is political in US. Covid is political. Numbers need to be increased because otherwise, it will prove Trump/Republicans right. Economies need to crash otherwise Trump will be seen as an okay president. Business need to stay shut because evil billionaires/republicans don't care about people's lives. etc. Mainstream media pushing these ideas are all liberal leaning. Yet there's a huge Fox news types that take the opposite approach to everything because their party demands it.
Covid numbers, economic shutdown is largely political in US. Its not based on any science/math/medical emergencies.

>>11625433
>>11625431
So a country with twice the number of people has only 2600 death instead of hundreds of thousands as predicted by models. How does this show an effectiveness of shutting down economies/limiting everyone's freedom? Every month in sweden, total death rate is ~7600 people. That 2600 over 3 months is nothing.

>~84 year of age of death of covid
Life expectancy of average swedish is ~83. So That's an entirely normal rate with no statistical significance.

Stop being fooled by narrative driven statistics.

[Anonymous No.11625498]

>>11625415
Sweden is doing to opposite of flattening the curve. They're spiking it as quickly as possible. Unfortunately this means no true comparison of dealing with the virus can be made until both the spike curve and the flattened curve are completed. The flattened curve will obviously take longer to calculate. By then it should also start to be obvious what are the impacts of economic destruction on health though that might linger for years if not decades.

[Anonymous No.11625517]

>>11625499
Shift those goal posts harder, faggot. The ~84 is from Norway, not Sweden. I have no idea what the average age of dead from Sweden is.

[Anonymous No.11625523]

>>11625517
??????????????

[Anonymous No.11625531]

>>11625523
>>11625517

[Anonymous No.11625942]

>>11625484
>Sweden is frontloading their deaths.
Okay, so that means their curve isn't comparable to their neighbors, yes? Because people are trying to argue otherwise.

>>11625498
We'll see how it goes for them. They may be better off in the end, maybe not, but I still think it helps that they're in a region that doesn't seem to be getting hit very hard, which makes it difficult to say that, for example, the UK should have taken the same approach. What if the UK doubled or tripled their deaths? They'd get lambasted.

[Anonymous No.11625992]

>>11625499
I don't understand your answer about the U.S., it doesn't seem to be answering what I asked. My question was, if SARS-CoV-2 is nothing more than the seasonal flu, then why is Europe experiencing such a huge rate of excess deaths? You can't blame it on falsely labeling COVID-19 deaths, because looking at all-cause deaths circumvents the cause of death. If the excess deaths aren't due to the virus, then what is causing the surge?

>So a country with twice the number of people has only 2600 death instead of hundreds of thousands as predicted by models
Sweden just registered their highest death toll week this century. How does that show their strategy is effective when the countries surrounding them that are quarantining have had no excess deaths? If you want to claim that you *think* it will be a more effective strategy in the long term, then that's fine, but the highest death toll for a week in the past 20 years is not insignificant, no matter how you try to spin it.

[Anonymous No.11626007]

>>11625992
Sweden's strategy is longer term than those of other countries. You can't directly compare per capita death numbers yet because they're putting their death early. Sweden can't be used as an example of what to do until it no longer matters because by the time we know if the total area under their curve is less or more than countries with lockdowns. It will be useful for when the next pandemic happens.

[Anonymous No.11626055]

>>11623305
he looks trustworthy

[Anonymous No.11626160]

more tests = better estimation = lower CFR = CFR closer TO IFR

[Anonymous No.11626180]

>>11626055
The government elected by the people of South African wouldn't have appointed him otherwise.

[Anonymous No.11626192]

>>11624609
>We are under quarantine right now and the food supply chain has not been disrupte
Latin America was specified. Most of those countries did not shut down until after the United States shut down. Please read and comprehend comments before responding to them. In case you're confused, neither South Korea nor Taiwan are in Latin America.

[Anonymous No.11626216]

>>11623521
Lol why are the numbers missing on the vertical axis? There needs to be at least two numbers to explicit a scale

[Anonymous No.11626243]

>>11625942
>Because people are trying to argue otherwise.
No! We are seing now, at least in europe, that covid-19 was slightly worse then normal flue. And people claiming now that lockdown-measures was the reason. Sweden is a counterexample. No matter what the countries around are doing, that came up by your guys. It is about how the curve looks, that it covid seams to be seasonal, that there are lots more of infected then currently tested, that the fatality rates are much lower, etc.

[Anonymous No.11626293]

>people are still only measuring the damage of the virus purely on the deaths it causes
Yeah, I mean sure plenty of people getting organ damage and other fucked up shit but hey they ain't dead, right?

[Anonymous No.11626304]

[Anonymous No.11626309]

>>11626192
I know you talked about latin america, which is why I replied. tell me, which countries in latam shutdown after the US?

>>11626293
governments are barely reporting the deaths, what makes you think they will report people left with health issues reliably?

>>11626304
>no source
now post the ones having heart attacks, dying from "unknown causes" at home, etc.

[Anonymous No.11626314]

>>11626293
That's something that needs to be researched better. So far most of the reports on permanent damage seem to be from the early days in China or from people who were on ventilators, which themselves can cause damage. Not sure if there really is little damage being done by the virus itself, we're not getting the data because of the focus on deaths, or if most with damaged organs were already that way before catching the virus. Since the virus seems to go after those who are weak, a correlation but not causation between damaged organs and having the virus might be reasonable.

[Anonymous No.11626331]

>>11625403

No, those are flu deaths, a calculated estimation. Learn basic statistics. Bacterial pneumonia deaths are also calculated. Bronchitis deaths are calculated, all fucking diseases are calculated, you absolute moron, because there are not enough tests. Pneumonia is an infection of the lungs, it doesn't mean it's not the flu, you fucking retard

[Anonymous No.11626337]

>>11626309
Almost all of them followed the US on March 18th in closing their borders and then started doing lockdowns once the US started doing them. The impact on them economically has been much worse than it has been on the US.

[Anonymous No.11626363]

>>11626243
>No! We are seing now, at least in europe, that covid-19 was slightly worse then normal flue.
But that's not true going by all-cause mortality.

>No matter what the countries around are doing, that came up by your guys.
But that's important, it's stupid to compare them to countries like the UK, Spain, and Italy when there's obviously circumstances that have made it far worse in those locations than in Scandinavia.

>It is about how the curve looks
And their new cases curve isn't flattening the way it is in Norway despite the fact that they're only testing at a third of the rate. The deaths curve also doesn't look the same, and they're probably underestimating their total COVID-19 deaths judging by the all-cause mortality rates. They've had more than 2500 excess deaths.

>>11626304
Nice chart, if only it was actually up to date...

Week 12 - 8,724 pneumonia deaths
Week 13 - 9,841 pneumonia deaths
Week 14 - 7,606 pneumonia deaths

Those weeks wouldn't even fit on that chart.

[Anonymous No.11626378]

>>11626331
>No, those are flu deaths, a calculated estimation.
Nope.

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/mortality.html

There's your flu deaths and pneumonia deaths. The CDC adds them together to estimate "flu burden."

>Bacterial pneumonia deaths are also calculated.
They only have one total for pneumonia, they don't separate by type. If the person dies of pneumonia and tests negative for the flu, it still gets added as "pneumonia + flu deaths" and then is reported as flu deaths only. That's really where they come up with their 50k flu deaths per year. They even used to report flu and pneumonia deaths as separate statistics until 2015, at which point they no longer separate them, but you can still see the individual numbers with Fluview. 2014 and earlier, consistently fewer than 5k flu deaths and then tens of thousands of pneumonia deaths.

[Anonymous No.11626383]

>>11623137
Presenting this data to the public was a mistake because they think you're saying 0.2% of the nation will die.

[Anonymous No.11626599]

Its hilarious how liberals are denying data now that data is against their initial prediction of millions of death in US. Will this be another racism/sexism shit that science cannot touch/talk about in general public because it hurts their feelings?

[Anonymous No.11626635]

>>11626599
Wear the mask you bigot!

[Anonymous No.11626655]

>https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/28/847251985/child-sexual-abuse-reports-are-on-the-rise-amid-lockdown-orders
>https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/22/domestic-violence-has-increased-during-coronavirus-lockdowns
Reminder, liberals want kids to be raped and domestic violence to be a thing so they can rally against the evils of Trump.

[Anonymous No.11626662]

>>11623437
I am Latin American and there no chaos whatsoever. The only places "in chaos" are the places that were already "in chaos" before the COVID-19 started. (ie. Venezuela)

Also, no country in Latin America shut down after the United States. Even in Brazil, the Brazilian states begun shutting down (against the wishes of its president), way before any American state did. We are not "following the example" of your cheeto president. ALL of Latin America shut down before the US did, which is why there have been less deaths and less cases. (even accounting for places with poor testing, deaths per capita are much lower than in the States)

So please stop talking out of your ass. You cannot name a single Latin American country that shut down after the US did and is in chaos due to the quarantines.

[Anonymous No.11626791]

>>11626599

[Anonymous No.11626824]

>>11626791

[Anonymous No.11626841]

>>11624120
>>11624108
>>11624105
Normal, rational people: Damn, this virus hits like a truck at a concert.
Contrarian /pol/ morons: YeP EXACTly LiEk ThE Flu #nothingburger #quarantineiscommunism #2wage2cuck

[Anonymous No.11627311]

>>11624622
>What about New York study or Sweden study Or Denmark study? Are those also fake news?
Those all put the CFR at about 4x what the Santa Clara and LA studies put it at. NY, Sweden and Denmark studies all converge to a CFR of about 0.75%, not the 0.2% the CA studies arrived at.

[Anonymous No.11627319]

>>11626791
wigger tier cope response, the genders have similar IQs, but different deviations, males have a higher deviation from the mean.

Males also excel in spatial skills, while women do so in verbal skills.

I'm convinced that zoomers like you have lower IQs when matched for race and gender, though

[Anonymous No.11627361]

>see "liberals denying data"
>reply with data
>liberals go apeshit trying to deny data >>11626791 >>11627319

[Anonymous No.11627377]

>>11626841
Relax kiddo, less than one percent of the people who have died from Covid in the US are under the age of 44. Those that have died usually suffered from other preexisting medical conditions. Also you're projecting, Covid is predominately a blue (urban) state problem.
https://gothamist.com/news/coronavirus-statistics-tracking-epidemic-new-york

[Anonymous No.11627384]

>>11626824

[Anonymous No.11627387]

>>11626841
>YeP EXACTly LiEk ThE Flu #nothingburger

[Anonymous No.11627514]

>>11623137

I think that the graphical arrangement of the data is meant to indicate a correspondence between the two sets of data, which may or may not be borne out on closer review of the items under discussion.

[Anonymous No.11627984]

>>11623137
So far every single one of these serological studies have been using unapproved tests from random companies in China, which is, like, yeah normally you would use a well validated test before rushing to publish but I guess we're in a rush, so whatever

SARS-CoV-2 is a coronavirus and veryone has had a coronavirus infection before. How are we testing if the antibody test is specific to SARS-CoV-2? How often will antibodies to other harmless coronaviruses (antibodies everyone makes) give you a false positive test result? It doesn't just depend on how similar SARS-CoV-2 is to other viruses, it also depends on what the antibodies people have already made look like, and that is totally random. We already know that most of these tests are kicking out false positives but what's the rate? Is it 3%?

[Anonymous No.11627992]

>>11623137
>conflating hyper-inflated flu estimates to CFR of novel virus that's obviously being under-counted
Seems legit

[Anonymous No.11628184]

>>11626160
Pic source?

>>11627377
>Those that have died usually suffered from other preexisting medical conditions.
Yes plural, conditionS.
Report of italian Instituto Superiore Di Sanita:
96.2% had at least 1 comorbidity.
60.3% 3 or more comorbiditites.
Average: 3.3, Mean:3, SD 1.9.
Source:
https://www.epicentro.iss.it/en/coronavirus/bollettino/Report-COVID-2019_29_april_2020.pdf

[Anonymous No.11628211]

>>11624622
Basically all data that shows it's a nothingburger is "poorly done" and "not good enough"
Nobody will ever detail why it's not good enough (a la >>11623250); they'll say it is and show their PhD and Twitter blue checkmark as if that justifies their argument.

[Anonymous No.11628217]

>>11623137
Seems to me at this point all you need to do is interview store employees and ask them how many of their co workers have died or had their balls twisted off. Wouldn't they be ground zero for this? But all you get is more graphs and rumors. Simple questions can give answers, but everyone's too busy rimming they're favorite authority and pretending they're smart.

[Anonymous No.11628228]

>>11627984
Don't know about every study but the Santa Clara study specifically goes over how they tested specifically for sars-cov-2 and not just for coronaviruses in general.
Your doomer talking points are old and need updating from central command.

[Anonymous No.11628319]

>>11624101
Keep seething, lockdown cocksucka

[Anonymous No.11628681]

>>11627319

[Anonymous No.11628687]

>>11623137
I can't wait for the states that open up to have data no different than the states enforcing totalitarian lockdowns. Hopefully then we can imprison all the retarded biologists and doctors who pushed the garbage data, as well as the politicians who abused their power

[Anonymous No.11628697]

It's more like this. Go back to dying

[Anonymous No.11628703]

>>11623137
mortality may be the same but covid is a lot more contagious so a lot more deaths overall. 80% of the us pop at 1%, i don't even want to give you the number. i hope it is 0.1% not 1 btw. still a bloodbath.

[Anonymous No.11628728]

>>11628697
this is the percentage of the diagnosed, not the percentage of the population?

[Anonymous No.11628969]

>>11628687
States that reopen early likely will have a spike early that quickly subsides. The lockdown states will drag their shit out for however long it take for someone to start killing politicians. The number of deaths directly attributed to the virus will be similar over time but the media will make a huge deal over the open states having a surge. None of it will be enough to overwhelm hospitals but that part of "flatten the curve" will be intentionally forgotten.

[Anonymous No.11629011]

>>11623293
https://youtu.be/8kkBseVTUow
>this thread

[Anonymous No.11629058]

>>11628728
No, you dumbass. You don't get it. Ha! What a moron. What a retard! Go back to school!
Just trust our numbers mmkay? You don't need to establish how many asymptomatic cases there are in the population for the numbers to mean anything.

[Anonymous No.11629064]

>>11629058
Even though you're being sarcastic, your post would easily fit in and be taken seriously over on plebbit. That demographic really is getting off on being put in house arrest.

[Anonymous No.11629067]

>>11629011
I'm sick of all the high-school armchair scientists pushing for house arrest because of "muh data". You faggots have no idea how statistics work and just parrot the same trash that the "scientists" on TV say.

[Anonymous No.11629078]

>>11629064
This generation is really pathetic.

[Anonymous No.11629081]

>>11629064
That's why I feel so dismayed. It would (and does) pass with my peers at medical school too - they are generally retarded. Evidence-based medicine is encouraged among us but that's been quickly forgotten when we've been given the gracious opportunity to forefit our education "for our safety".
Forget the fact that their approach will make us miss a year of medical placements (that we have been told cannot and will not be made up for) or collapse our economy; that doesn't have a hashtag that you can whoop in agreement to (like #FlattenTheCurve #StayHome #ProtectTheNHS).

[Anonymous No.11629102]

Compare the US to Sweden. I think Sweden is doing fine and they will be alright long term. Yet the majority of the US states (with the exception of about ten or so) are doing as good or even much better than Sweden. Everything else about those states is pretty comparable: the population density, the size, the overall mentality about being careful as many do stay at home as much as possible and wear masks in public, etc. Yet we are facing a total economic collapse while Sweden will be just fine. Of course they are a small country compared to entire US which is a totally different story.

[Anonymous No.11629110]

>>11628687
>I can't wait for the states that open up to have data no different than the states enforcing totalitarian lockdowns.
There is absolutely zero data that says business-as-usual countries have lower/similar infection and death rates to lockdown countries.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=chart&year=2020-04-27&country=DNK+FIN+NOR+SWE

[Anonymous No.11629187]

>>11629110
And now put italy, spain, uk, china, switzerland etc. beside sweden.
Anyways, it is NOT about QUANTITY but about QUALITY. Diffs of diffs (sec. derivative if you will) same for all 4. See >>11625333 again.
And geographical closeness does not mean you can compare. Look at italy, one region responsible for almost half of all confirmed cases. Clusters are just normal for epidemics.
Btw, even if sweden would be invalid (which it is not) as a counterexample...
>There is absolutely zero data that says business-as-usual countries have lower/similar infection and death rates to lockdown countries.
... it is on the lockdown-happening-people to provide empirical evidence that those measures work, not the other way round.

[Anonymous No.11629390]

>>11629187
>And now put italy, spain, uk, china, switzerland etc. beside sweden.
I can't help but notice you don't mention South Korea, Iceland or Taiwan.
Also Switzerand has 204 deaths per million compared to Sweden's 264.
China claims just 3 deaths per million, but I assume they're lying.

[Anonymous No.11629414]

>>11629390
>Also Switzerand has 204 deaths per million compared to Sweden's 264.
You think 60 deaths per million justifies economic and human rights destruction? I'm sick of the humanist retards in charge.

[Anonymous No.11629425]

>>11629414
>nooooo you can't just put price on life like that
>what's what funding for healthcare? no lol

[Anonymous No.11629496]

>>11629414
>60 deaths per million
That was April 9th. We're over 200 per million now.
And what you pro-virus assholes keep forgetting is: these are the numbers _with_mitigation.
If you had your way, the numbers would be much higher.

And let's not forget, we wouldn't have to decide between a million dead vs tanking the economy if your orange master hadn't dropped the ball so badly that we've already got 5x the world average death rate, even not counting China.
Opening up even sooner than Trump's own guidelines is a sure-fire recipe for disaster and even longer lockdowns.

[Anonymous No.11629516]

>>11629496
>even longer lockdowns.
There are already protests and civil unrest in most blue states. Any longer and people are going to start shooting. Why do you think Trump chose to open up?

>>11629496
>That was April 9th. We're over 200 per million now.
>And what you pro-virus assholes keep forgetting is: these are the numbers _with_mitigation.
Sweden is barely mitigating and their deaths are not egregious. Stop pretending like anything <1% death rate for young people is worth totalitarianism you humanist fuckwit. We have enough people anyways

[Anonymous No.11629536]

>>11629516
>Any longer and people are going to start shooting.
Super unlikely.
The reason countries like Taiwan, Iceland and South Korea are already open is they took this shit seriously to begin with.
The reason we're still under stay-at-home orders is because whiny little assholes like you keep spreading the virus by leaving the house.

[Anonymous No.11629542]

>>11629516
>death rate for young people
Why do you hate my grandparents?

[Anonymous No.11629565]

>>11629187
>Maybe if I shove a bunch of dissimilar countries together, the statistics will spit out an outlier that I can live with.

[Anonymous No.11629569]

>>11629536
>The reason countries like Taiwan, Iceland and South Korea are already open is they took this shit seriously to begin with.
Nobody cares about your shitty 3rd world poster child countries.

[Anonymous No.11629574]

>>11629516
>totalitarianism you humanist fuckwit. We have enough people anyways
THIS!!!
God bless you Anon, not many would have the courage to come out in favor of American Genocide.
People can't even but paint, lawn fertilizer or grass seed! It's just ridiculous!
https://youtu.be/SC62S0-N3pI?t=80

[Anonymous No.11629579]

>>11629569
>your shitty 3rd world poster child countries.
They're doing better than us.
We banana republic now.

[Anonymous No.11629580]

>>11629542
Some places reopening are keeping seniors locked down for a while longer. IMO it would make sense if we could do that and find a way to redistribute supplies like good masks to seniors/people caring for them so they can stay safer. Obviously some businesses will have an issue, but 90% of the economy isn't Golden Corral and can go back to mostly normal with the working-age population back outside.

[Anonymous No.11629591]

>>11629516
>Stop pretending like anything <1% death rate for young people is worth totalitarianism
You have no idea what totalitarianism is.
"Oh noes! I can't get a haircut"

>1% death rate for young people
That's still millions of dead young Americans.

"Hi Mrs. Smith! I'm sorry to hear your 5 year old died of Covid, but she had asthma and /pol/ told me she deserved to die. But on the plus side, my lawn looks great this year, and check out my spiffy haircut!"

Saving up to a million lives isn't just about saving lives, it's about a future where we can tell ourselves we didn't throw a million people under the bus to make up for the slow federal response.

[Anonymous No.11629595]

>>11629579
Just like barbarian tribes were doing better than London during the plague. It doesn't matter when they're still savages

[Anonymous No.11629601]

>>11629580
Google "ARDS and Covid"
Even the survivors are having years cut off their lives.

[Anonymous No.11629610]

>>11629591
>You have no idea what totalitarianism is.
>"Oh noes! I can't get a haircut"
It's more like "Oh no, I can't keep my hair salon open under government orders"

[Anonymous No.11629615]

>>11629595
>It doesn't matter when they're still savages
Implying the South Koreans are "savages" compared to the average Trump voter.
https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0

[Anonymous No.11629620]

>>11629610
I guess it sucks to not be "essential".

[Anonymous No.11629625]

>>11629610
Maybe if carriers weren't killing more people per week than drunk drivers kill per year, you wouldn't have this problem.But go ahead and pour gasoline on the fire, I'm sure it'll work out fine.

[Anonymous No.11629629]

>>11629615
>entire history is a footnote to China
yeah they are

[Anonymous No.11629647]

>>11629601
>Acute respiratory distress syndrome, also known as ARDS, is a common killer among critically ill patients hospitalized with COVID-19.
>common killer among critically ill patients hospitalized

[Anonymous No.11629779]

>>11629629
>yeah they are
And yet they did far better than America under your orange master...

[Anonymous No.11629792]

>>11629647
If you survive Covid, your lungs are never going to be the same.
Go outside! Your GOP masters just cut 5-20 years off your expected lifespan.
retard.

[Anonymous No.11629968]

>>11629620
>Stop leisure activities or anything needed beyond caveman functions

[Anonymous No.11630067]

>>11629968
If you don't have an "Essential" job the real grownups were carrying your ass all along.
Don't worry, those of us that actually contribute will still pay your way in the new order .
Google "UBI".
Honestly, I'd rather pay you to stay at home instead of cutting hair, giving handjobs, lobbying congress or whatever made up job you were doing to begin with.

[Anonymous No.11630083]

>>11623137

[Anonymous No.11630090]

>>11629536
That's the exact opposite of "flatten the curve" which was the original justification for all of this nonsense. People leaving the house gets this over with sooner. If you disagree, take it up with the flatten the curve people.

[Anonymous No.11630099]

>>11629536
There is no justification for the shutdown if the medical system is not overwhelmed. It has already been shown that hospitals offer fuck all help, with respirators being useless and the treatments just making things worse. What will lockdowns accomplish? The virus isn't going to go away and I, for one, will refuse to take the vaccine, IF it ever comes out. The only way around this is immunity.

[Anonymous No.11630174]

>>11623271
If you've ever conducted a study, you'd know that whether it's blind or not doesn't really matter. Researchers have a pretty good idea about the outcome from the start and also,can choose to publish it or not.

[Anonymous No.11630182]

>>11630083
>Reported
>Actual mortality rates
He doesn't know lol

[Anonymous No.11630194]

>>11630182
Yeah, it's higher than that because it's slightly underreported. We know. Not by a huge margin, anyways, and it doesn't change the takeaway.

[Anonymous No.11630201]

>>11623137
even if it was true that COVID-19 is 'just the flu' , lots of people who would be vulnerable to flu each year don't get it because of existing immunity to influenza. that existing immunity simply doesn't exist for COVID-19, so if its IFR was exactly the same as flu then there would be 5 to 10 times the number of deaths and hospitalizations.

[Anonymous No.11630206]

>>11630201
for the record, COVID-19's IFR is AT LEAST 2-3 times higher than flu due to under reporting of deaths as being due to COVID-19. If you look at the number of excess deaths versus seasonal average you can see that there are many excess deaths.

[Anonymous No.11630374]

>>11630206
Be that as it may, the elevated death rate still doesn't justify the misery imposed on everyone by shutting down the global economy. The famines and medical supply shortages in third world countries from aid reduction and price increases alone will be an order of magnitude higher than the covid death count.

[Anonymous No.11630480]

>>11630374
That was probably the whole point, though. Surely nobody ACTUALLY believes these actions are justified.

[Anonymous No.11630773]

>>11630090
>That's the exact opposite of "flatten the curve"
You lost me there, Einstein. Please spell it out for me.

>People leaving the house gets this over with sooner.
Nope. The three countries are done with their lockdowns already because they committed to actually staying at home and early testing which reduced the number of carriers, minimizing deaths and shortening the lockdown.
In _this_ country people keep going to the grocery store every week, eating carry-out and doing stupid shit like protesting and other violations of social distancing.
That's why it keeps lingering on and on.
These assholes killed more people last week than drunk drivers do in a year, PLUS they're the reason the lockdown isn't over yet.

> If you disagree, take it up with the flatten the curve people.
You do understand the "flatten the curve" idea means we only had to build a thousand extra ICU beds in NYC, not 3-4000, right?
Preventing a spike was always going to slow down the progress of the disease.
Really not sure what you're thinking here.

[Anonymous No.11630788]

>>11630099
>There is no justification for the shutdown if the medical system is not overwhelmed.
But it is. They needed a thousand extra ICU beds in NYC alone. My local hospital had to set up tents in the parking lot.
Look at the NYC antibody tests, only 20-25% of New Yorkers have the antibodies, and their ICU bed use topped out at about 3500 beds.
Without the stay-at-home order, it could have peaked at 4-5 times that amount, 14-17,000.
The entire city's normal capacity is 2500.

[Anonymous No.11630799]

>>11630206
>for the record, COVID-19's IFR is AT LEAST 2-3 times higher than flu due to under reporting of deaths
In a broader view, it's killed more people in the last month than most flu seasons do in 6.
And that's _with_ the stay-at-home orders _and_ ignoring the under-reporting.

[Anonymous No.11630809]

>>11630374
>still doesn't justify the misery imposed on everyone by shutting down the global economy.
How many people have to die so you can back to drinking somewhere besides your kitchen?
If Americans from the President down to the protesters had taken this seriously, we'd be back open again by now.

[Anonymous No.11630812]

>>11630374
>The famines and medical supply shortages in third world countries from aid reduction and price increases alone will be an order of magnitude higher than the covid death count.
Please show your math.

[Anonymous No.11630815]

>>11630480
>Surely nobody ACTUALLY believes these actions are justified.
According to polling, most people do.
Personally? I don't know a single person who oppose them.
Even Trump keeps talking about millions of dead Americans.
It's worth it.

[Anonymous No.11630849]

>>11630788
Okay, it was, and in one particular city. My town never had more than a few virus cases and was shut down just as hard as NYC. That isn't justified. Once the infrastructure has caught up, then the lockdown needs to end. This virus isn't going to magically go away; people need to be exposed to it. The target groups can stay inside indefinitely if they wish or wait for a vaccine.

[Anonymous No.11630990]

>>11630849
>Once the infrastructure has caught up, then the lockdown needs to end.
So you're in the middle of the worst crisis America has faced in our lifetimes, and you're arguing for More Americans to die so what? So you can get a haircut?
I was raised Catholic. I don't _want_ to believe in an eternal lake of fire, but of there _is_ one, you just volunteered.
You're an embarrassment to your country, the world, and the human race. Burn in hell, faggot.

[Anonymous No.11630994]

>>11623137
Respectfully, I think that it should have been a png or svg.

[Anonymous No.11630997]

>>11626216
>what's 6,000 divided by 3
nothingfag retards have got to do better than this, really

[Anonymous No.11631004]

>>11630182
>he thinks coronavirus is already more widespread than the flu to balance out the increased death count
get a brain you fucking idiot

[Anonymous No.11631010]

>>11630849
>The target groups
We are all the target groups.

[Anonymous No.11631046]

>>11631010
meant the risk groups
>>11630990
you're a pathetic, humanist faggot

[Anonymous No.11631055]

>>11624491
>"Obviously", "common sense"
>Think about the Monty Hall problem for example
If you don't think the Monty Hall problem is common sense than you were explained it poorly
If it's instead explained from the perspective of the game show host, most people understand it instantly
The issue is the same as many "trick questions" in math where you dangle an object in one direction hoping they don't know what you're actually asking
The reason it's so hard to explain to people is because the people explaining it are trying to make it so

[Anonymous No.11631078]

>>11631046
>you're a pathetic, humanist faggot
>humanist faggot
>humanist
Oh noes!!!! I'm in favor of humans!!!! What a failure!!!
I'm sure my Mom would be ashamed!!!!

dumbass

[Anonymous No.11631238]

https://youtu.be/JZ31Dj5t4uk?t=131

[Anonymous No.11631859]

>>11631055
>If you don't think the Monty Hall problem is common sense than you were explained it poorly
It IS common sense but it WASN'T. Read for example wiki, there is a paragraph "vos Savant and the media furor".
You might start with intuition, but it is never valid to say "this and that is true" because "common sense", "I think so", "it is obvious" etc.
But everyone voting for lockdowns argues this way, because there is no empirical evidence. You might argue that way for a political question, but this, in the end is a science question. And if you ruin the lifes of so many people, reorganize economy etc., I expect better arguements then "it is obvious".

[Anonymous No.11632166]

>>11631859
>you were explained it poorly
My Daddy borrowed me the money for college, but them fuckers couldn't learn me nothin'.

[Anonymous No.11632176]

>>11631859
>there is no empirical evidence.
How many people have to die before you believe a deadly viral respiratory tract infection warrants isolation?

[Anonymous No.11632292]

>>11632176
You still don't get the argument. Again: It is not about QUANTITY but about QUALITY.
Consider covid-19 as a natural disaster. Let's say like hurricanes.
Region A shut down everything, region B did not. Both get hit by a hurricane. Thousands die in both regions. Same timeline of the catastrophe. How is the number of deaths now an argument for shutting down everything?
The cruves in sweden follow same timeline-pattern as in the other european countries. "Flatten the curve" means also "extend the curve". But we see now with sweden, that even if you do almost nothing: The epidemy is almost over in europe, it seems to be seasonal, the serology studies are probably right (even if not peer-reviewed, triple-blind, ...) which means fatality rates of covid in the same region as seasonal influenza - maybe slightly(!) worse, etc.
So even if region B got hitten slightly harder, it was an ordinary hurricane, not some epic firestorm.

>How many people have to die before you believe a deadly viral respiratory tract infection warrants isolation?
Yeah hippocrit, stop that childish "you are a bad person because you don't care when people die": 250K covid deaths so far, 500K flu deaths EVERY YEAR, no one cared! 3M child starving to death EVERY YEAR, no one cares. As long as there is no washington post-clickbaiter-shitty-quality-article with some emotional pictures, it isn't a catastrophe, right?

[Anonymous No.11632301]

>>11623272
Get off you VPN, Chang

[Anonymous No.11632373]

>>11632292
>The cruves in sweden follow same timeline-pattern as in the other european countries.
Except Sweden is doing enormously worse than all of its neighbors, despite starting the crisis with very low levels of infection.

So no, Sweden is not doing the same as other European nations. Sweden could look like Austria does right now, given how little infection it started the crisis with, but instead it looks worse than the UK, and is getting worse.

[Anonymous No.11632384]

>>11632292
>500K flu deaths EVERY YEAR
I can't say what the global number is, but in the US that's ~5k flu deaths per year. Versus the 60k COVID deaths we've already had. The US CDC lumps all pneumonia deaths in with the flu, even though the majority of severe pneumonia cases are not caused by the flu, and it wouldn't surprise me if the same statistical charlatanism isn't done worldwide as well.

[Anonymous No.11632473]

>>11626662
i'm from brasil and can confirm everything he said

[Anonymous No.11632478]

>>11632292
>250K covid deaths so far, 500K flu deaths EVERY YEAR, no one cared
Plenty of people care.
And so far, in this country, Covid has killed more people in one month than the flu does in 6.
And, I can't believe you tards keep forgetting this, but the current numbers are so low because of self-isolation.
That's an argument FOR isolation, not against it.
Even your orange master talks about millions of dead Americans without mitigation.
Address this point please. I haven't seen one of you pro-genocide tards talk about this at all.

[Anonymous No.11632498]

>>11632373
>Except Sweden is doing enormously worse than all of its neighbors
Yes, but better then italy, belgium, spain, etc. Geographical closeness doesn't necessarily mean you can compare. Agian, take a look on italy, almost half of all confirmed cases in a single region. Clustering is normal for epidemies.

>but in the US that's ~5k flu deaths per year.
Where did you get that number from, is this your own estimation? WHO estimates 250K-600K flu deaths every year and writes, that this number probably is an underestimation(!).
>The US CDC lumps all pneumonia deaths in with the flu, even though the majority of severe pneumonia cases are not caused by the flu,
The same argument, even in a stronger form, goes for covid-19. Everyone(!) died tested positive for sars-cov-2 is counted as covid-19 death. Imagine how many flu deaths we would have with this policy.
>...and it wouldn't surprise me if the same statistical charlatanism isn't done worldwide as well.
I think I can agree, but statistical charlatanism is always done by both sides of an argument. Also in this debate, done by "happeningfags" and also "flufags".

The points, the "lockdowners" should be in duty to prove their hypothesis before destroying peoples lifes, install (or further expand) global monitoring systems etc. But things are just claimed, because "makes sense", "I think so" etc.

[Anonymous No.11632507]

>>11626337
Full lockdown started at 14th march in Brazil, and no, the economical impact wasn't much worse, we are getting by.

[Anonymous No.11632528]

>>11632498
>>Where did you get that number from, is this your own estimation? WHO estimates 250K-600K flu deaths every year and writes, that this number probably is an underestimation(!).
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/comparing-covid-19-deaths-to-flu-deaths-is-like-comparing-apples-to-oranges/
And many, many more similar sources. Flu deaths in the US are enormously overestimated.


>The same argument, even in a stronger form, goes for covid-19. Everyone(!) died tested positive for sars-cov-2 is counted as covid-19 death. Imagine how many flu deaths we would have with this policy.
For one, they're lumping people who died from pneumonia with NEGATIVE influenza tests as a flu death.

For two, there have been in depth studies on COVID-19 and it's impact on mortality done by the UK authorities, which found that in 93% of cases COVID-19 was a significant causal factor in the death of the patient and only 7% of the time was it a non-causal factor. So no, in the vast majority of cases, people aren't dying "with" COVID-19, they're dying because of COVID-19. Even if they have comorbidities. Most of those comorbidities don't kill people when properly treated -- but toss COVID-19 into the mix, and suddenly the patient dies. The comorbidity was the bullet in the chamber, but COVID-19 is the finger that pulled the trigger.

[Anonymous No.11632537]

>>11632478
>but the current numbers are so low because of self-isolation
>Address this point please. I haven't seen one of you pro-genocide tards talk about this at all.
This is just a claim, exactly what I was addressing the last few posts with the "sweden-case". If you want a political reaction, protection measures enforced, the burden of proof is on YOUR side.
Show me empiric evidence that your claim is true. I know you can't, and it's maybe unfair because there was never a situation like this. But nevertheless, this is not how you approach a scientific question - which the lockdown basically is. You can't argue that way for enforcing political rules and establishing new laws.
"I THINK, eating to much, fat people and BMI's over 25 will be the reason for human extinction, MAKES SENSE to me. So from now on, everyone with BMI>25 must do sports EVERY DAY and will be set on a diet. This will be enforced by governments" How would you react, would that be valid?

[Anonymous No.11632588]

>>11632528
>So no, in the vast majority of cases, people aren't dying "with" COVID-19, they're dying because of COVID-19. Even if they have comorbidities. Most of those comorbidities don't kill people when properly treated -- but toss COVID-19 into the mix, and suddenly the patient dies. The comorbidity was the bullet in the chamber, but COVID-19 is the finger that pulled the trigger.
There are cases, where an autopsy revealed retrospectively, that cause of death indeed wasn't covid-19, but it was already counted as such.
Anyways I can - at least partly - agree with what you said. But then still, are those measures really justified? If we shutdown for x months and by this save the lifes (which, as said, has yet to be proven) of people who have y months left, and y < x, would it still be justified?

[Anonymous No.11632618]

>>11632588
>I can - at least partly - agree
Can you at least partly read?
93% of cases. If these people were at death's door they would state covid-19 as a significant causal factor.

YOU need to prove that they would have died anyways for your point to be valid.

[Anonymous No.11632634]

>>11632498
>Yes, but better then italy, belgium, spain, etc.
That's cherrypicking.
They're not doing as well as us, and we've got 5x the world average per-capita deaths (even if you don't count China's bullshit numbers).
Sweden isn't doing as well as Ireland, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Portugal, Monaco, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Finland, Estonia, Romania, Norway, Hungary, Moldova, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Czechia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Croatia, Poland, Lithuania, Greece, Cyprus, Albania, Bulgaria, Belarus, Malta, Russia, Latvia, the Ukraine, Slovakia, Georgia, the Vatican City, and Gibraltar, just to stick with Europe.
Which isn't saying much, considering Europe isn't doing well in general.


>destroying peoples lifes
As compared to killing them?
Also remember, "muh lockddown" would be over by now if it weren't for the poor federal response and people's insistence on going out and spreading the virus needlessly.

[Anonymous No.11632649]

>>11632537
>Show me empiric evidence that your claim is true.
It's a respiratory tract infection spread from humans to humans.
/argument

[Anonymous No.11632893]

>>11632618
>Can you at least partly read?
>93% of cases.
Oh jesus, can you? This is was your statement:
>in depth studies on COVID-19 and it's impact on mortality done by the UK authorities, which found that in 93% of cases COVID-19 was a significant causal factor in the death of the patient and only 7% of the time was it a non-causal factor.
This doesn't say much. Of course a disease, any disease, would probably be a significant causal factor for somenone who is over 80 and suffers from leukemia and diabetes etc. And in such a specific case, leukemia wouldn't be a "significant factor"? That there are 7% (!) completely wrong diagnosed cases shows just how ridiculous this whole story is. (And btw, "significant causal", kind of a pleonasm, if something is causal then of course it is significant)
Btw source?

>YOU need to prove that they would have died anyways for your point to be valid.
I have to repeat myself:
>If YOU want a political reaction, protection measures enforced, the burden of proof is on YOUR side.
>"I THINK, eating to much, fat people and BMI's over 25 will be the reason for human extinction, MAKES SENSE to me. So from now on, everyone with BMI>25 must do sports EVERY DAY and will be set on a diet. This will be enforced by governments" How would you react, would that be valid?
In your thinking-framework, we should lockdown EVERY FUCKING YEAR because of the flu.

>>11632634
>That's cherrypicking.
It only seems to be. Because if lockdown would be the only possibility to prevent a catastrophe, sweden should be by FAR the worst county. Even if there is a single country doing worse then sweden, "lockdowners" should be in duty to explain.
And come on, everyone is cherrypicking. "Lockdowners" kindly ignoring for example (pic related):
>>11623137
>>11625333
>>11625377
>>11626160

>>11632649
yeah high schooler, come back when you've done statistics 101.

[Anonymous No.11632913]

>>11632588
You wouldn't be so flippant about it if it was spreading in your close community. It's better to be poor than dying or gasping for air for months. Hospitalization median age is 40-50, so don't even bother writing it off as killing only elderly and terminally ill. Without hospitals providing oxygen this thing would kill much younger.

[Anonymous No.11632921]

>>11632893
This is already worse than the flu broseph.

[Anonymous No.11633299]

>>11632893
>Even if there is a single country doing worse then sweden, "lockdowners" should be in duty to explain.
Nope. Your the one making the more unusual claim, burden of proof falls to you to explain why not self-isolating will somehow save lives.
Hitchen's Razor, Russel's Teapot

Also, you're gaslighting when you refer to the majority of people as "lockdowners".

[Anonymous No.11633311]

>just a flu
>please ignore the overflooded hospitals and increased death rates

[Anonymous No.11633508]

>>11626662
yeah, ecuador is fake

[Anonymous No.11635073]

https://youtu.be/E6lxKOfn8_E
,