/sci/ - Science & Math

[Á̀͢non̴y̕͜m̶̕ous̢͏ No.11523381]

if IQ is and is largely genetic, then why are the descendants of low IQ Indians who went to Singapore as migrant laborers now the highest earning ethnic group there? Earlier when this question was phrased using Indian-Americans, people answered that it was because of the selective immigration and how only the high IQ Indians tend to emigrate. Now you cant "selective immigration" you're way out of this one, so think carefully.

[A͘no͏͞ny̶͜mo̢̧͠ų́s No.11523396]

>>11523381
Because it's nurture, not nature. What people thing is genetic is really just parents ensuring their children turn out like they do through nurture.

[Anonymous No.11523401]

>>11523381
Hello there!

[Ańonym̧ous No.11523462]

>>11523381
It's cultural. Indians value education more highly. They also value job prestige more highly. Genetics do put an upper cap on IQ. Your experiences during childhood development can affect your final IQ. Things like good nutrition and doing abstract problems in school(math and language) determines how close you get to your potential.
IQ is essentially a predictor for success in a developed economy. The following will trigger race realists: The reason IQ is so low in central African countries is because they received very little childhood education that would help someone in a developed economy. Instead they learned skills that have to do with wilderness survival. Instead of becoming good at abstract pattern recognition, African children programmed their brains to be experts at foraging.

[Ą̵̵non̴y̴͢m̵o̵͝us͢ No.11523510]

>>11523457
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Singaporean_Indians

[A̵ǹơ̛n͢͏̵͜ym̢ous͠ No.11523565]

>>11523477
I do

[A̧n̕oǹ̀͞y̡mo͠u̷s̵̨ No.11523740]

>>11523580
I assumed manual laborers to have low IQ and IQ correlates with wealth and educational qualifications.
What's with your retarded greentext? Do you mean to say all labourers were replaced with educated elites because it said "repatriation"?

[An̴͘onymo͜u͢s No.11523767]

>>11523740
>I assumed
There was your first mistake.

> IQ correlates with wealth and educational qualifications.
In western developed states when you're comparing apples to apples. When you make general cross-country comparisons that no longer stands true. In other words Belarus has roughly the same average IQ as Germany despite being by far poorer.

>What's with your retarded greentext?
No, its states rather clearly that the Indian population was transient, meaning a lot of Indians came and went and today you only have a sample of those who chose to stay so you already have a self selection process going on. It stands to reason that those who succeeded were more likely to stay.

>Do you mean to say all labourers were replaced with educated elites because it said "repatriation"?
No, but a number of them were, so much so that the Indian population dropped by almost a third.

Enjoy your narrative crafting, faggot.

[An͘ony͘m͘ò̧҉̀͝us No.11523778]

>>11523381
Maybe IQ isn't largely genetic. Maybe it's largely about home much you use your brain with genetics only deciding between to equally practiced? Maybe your question would have been better aimed at /pol/?

[A̕ń͜onymou͟s No.11523791]

>>11523396
>>11523774
>>11523778
>people still contradict the literal mountain of evidence proving intelligence is highly hereditary
Enjoy educating your mentally ill 70IQ kids into high IQ doctors and lawyers.

just nurture bro.

[A̴͏n̵̡o̷n̶y͢m͢ouś͞ No.11523797]

>>11523767
>A number of them were replaced
so you agree that the majority were still laborers? lol. You literally said nothing of any value in your responses, just came in to cite some immigration stats that didnt prove anyone's point. True brainlet indeed

[Aǹòny͢m͞ous No.11523811]

>>11523797
Clearly you can't even entertain the idea because you already have a narrative that needs to be held to, or you're retarded. Either way cope with your intellectual inferiority senpai


'lol'

[Anon͜y̡̡m͢o̶̧u̵͘s No.11523813]

>>11523381
I didn't post in the last thread btw. Id have said pretty much the same as I just did though. For example omeone who is illiterate has barely exercised their brain at all. To say they have low IQ because they are a specific race rather than because they've learnt to use only a fraction of their brain's potential would be foolish. People in the west quickly forget that we are not born read and writing. Even speech is something learned.

[Ą́n̵͠o͏n̕͘ym̛ous No.11523818]

>>11523791
You just shifted the goal posts massively from the genetics of race to what causes learning disorders. Have you ever taught children of any kind?

[A̷n̛͝o̧ný̶mo̶u̕s No.11523828]

Anyway you're not who I was addressing. You're just another fly attracted to dung.

[An͟o͠nym̸ous̶ No.11523838]

>>11523817
>nooooo intelligence can't be hereditary
Every study done on this contradicts you.

>>11523818
Who mentioned genetics of race?

[A̕͝n̵ony̡͟m̷̢͢ous̀̀ No.11523850]

>>11523811
Calling me intellectually inferior after you've made that absolutely braindead "cross country comparison", what kind of retardation is this? lmao

[Àn҉̵͡on̛ym̧͘͝o̷͜us No.11523859]

>>11523791
This
>people in power are intellectual geniuses
>their kids have to be bribed through school
proof that children have intelligence based on their parents

[An҉̶͝oń́y͜mous No.11523870]

>>11523850
Well you are the retard with unsupported narrative full of assumptions and a wikipedia article so it checks out. Why don't you sprinkle a few personal anecdotes as well like the other retard in this thread?

[A͟͜n̛o͏ny͏m̵̡ou͘s̴͜ No.11523879]

>>11523767
I'll explain it to you clearly this time, listen carefully. Indian average IQ is 82 and should have been even lower back then. The average Indian is dumb according to the IQ scale and the average manual worker even dumber and my question is how the descendants of these dumb people are the highest earning ethnic group in that country. Ignoring all that you went on rambling about developed country and cross country comparisons, like the faggot you are

[An̷on̴̵ym̛ous̷͏ No.11523893]

>>11523879
Read you own wikipedia article. The indian community was transient, only a % of indians that immigrated actually stayed there. By virtue of this there was a self selection process going on.

>Ignoring all that you went on rambling about developed country and cross country comparisons, like the faggot you are
I made one line, and you conveniently ignored everything else, because you're a fucking retard.

Fucking room temperature IQ.

[Anonymoùs͢ No.11523897]

>>11523838
Which studies? Post and state metrics and whether they state effect of wealth inherited wealth and access to top tier education.

And why does the school class system in the UK literally contradict your assertion?

School and wealth correlates with success
vs talent

>Who mentioned genetics of race?
Anon prob. pre-empted what usually follows.

Genetics matter but not in a linear fashion. There is no
>Intelligence
Gene.
I've literally seen the dumbest children imaginable emerging from the most intelligent parents

[Anony̡mous͝ No.11523907]

>>11523893
Ok,

So would an intelligent being pro-create in all environments?
Is that intelligence adaptable?
Is it limited to environment?

Trading Places when?

[A͡non͟y̷͘m͡ous͝ No.11523923]

>>11523897
>Which studies?
Literally any recent study on the subject of habitability of IQ.

https://scholar.google.si/scholar?q=IQ+heritability+studies&hl=sl&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

Have a fucking blast.

>There is no
>Intelligence
>Gene.
Yes, there are, how exactly they work and interact with each other is another matter. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying there are no genes for height or eye color. Something a retard would say.

>I've literally seen the dumbest children imaginable emerging from the most intelligent parents
Nice anecdote

[An̕o̵͢n̵̕̕ym̢͝ou͞ś No.11523937]

>>11523396
The science disagrees.

[Á̕n͞o̧n̕y̨m̸ou͏̀s̸ No.11524016]

>>11523381
>>11523817
>>11523897
You should all, at the very least, read "The Neuroscience of Intelligence", by Doctor Richard J. Haier, Professor Emeritus in the Pediatric Neurology Division of the School of Medicine at University of California, Irvine. It is part of the Cambridge Fundamentals of Neuroscience in Psychology series, it contains such wonderful quotes as:
>The most far-reaching implications for science, and perhaps for society, will come from
identifying genes responsible for the heritability of g … Despite the formidable challenges
of trying to find genes of small effect, I predict that most of the heritability of g will be
accounted for eventually by specific genes, even if hundreds of genes are needed to do it.
(Plomin, 1999, pp. 27, 28)
>Finding genes brings us closer to an understanding of the neurophysiological basis of
human cognition. Furthermore, when genes are no longer latent factors in our models but can actually be measured, it becomes feasible to identify those environmental factors that
interact and correlate with genetic makeup. This will supplant the long nature/nurture debate
with actual understanding.
(Posthuma and de Geus, 2006, p. 151)
>It might be argued that it is no longer surprising to demonstrate genetic influence on a
behavioral trait, and that it would be more interesting to find a trait that shows no genetic
influence.
(Plomin and Deary, 2015, p. 98)
And that's even before the introduction has begun. Of course, none of this would surprise you if you understood the nature of expression, and that is phenotype. The interaction between the genotype and the envirotype, nature and nurture are inseparable.
Do I need to continue, or have you been schooled enough yet, boy?

[Anonymous No.11525525]

>>11523494
Retards still believe the spearchucking African hunter-gatherer meme and that Africans apparently don't know how to farm.

[Anonymous No.11525682]

>>11523381
Because psychology is bullshit. Even the concept of a mental illness is bullshit; it's just simply someone behaving in a manner that their current culture disagrees with.

[Anonymous No.11525727]

>>11523381
Theres this thing called mutation and evolution, sometimes there is a perfect storm of intelligence genes that results in a poo that not only shits in the loo but also does rocket science.

[Anonymous No.11525730]

>>11524016
Somebody get race science denying anon some anal ointment and vitamin K before he bleeds to death out of the axe wound this man made of his shitter.

[Anonymous No.11525736]

>>11523396
Long disproven
>When /pol/ has more scientific sources then /sci/

>>11523381
It's because only the elite 0.1% are able to emigrate. For every high IQ Indian doctor who goes to America, there are dozens who continue to bathe in shit out in the Indian country.

[Anonymous No.11525742]

>>11525736
P.S. Same goes for Singapore, because Singapore is a rich city with high land values and highly competitive job market; and it requries a certain amount of wealth to travel and relocate anywhere, which means you have to have had the intelligence to at least be middle class to begin with.

[Anonymous No.11526519]

>>11523879
>what is 2+2 and don’t give me 4 give me a proper answer.

[Anonymous No.11526523]

>>11523923
Ok, lets do this

First result:
https://www.nature.com/articles/41319

Devlin, B., Daniels, M. & Roeder, K. The heritability of IQ. Nature 388, 468–471 (1997). https://doi.org/10.1038/41319

>Adoption designs are a popular means of estimating IQ heritability. Associated analyses, however, usually assume negligible maternal effects. By contrast, our results show that 20% of twin and 5% of sibling covariance may be attributable to maternal effects. These results have two implications: a new model may be required regarding the influence of genes and environment on cognitive function; and interventions aimed at improving the prenatal environment could lead to a significant increase in the population's IQ. Moreover, some of Herrnstein and Murray's conclusions6 regarding human evolution such as the development of cognitive castes and IQ dysgenics, arise from their belief that IQ heritability is at least60%, and is probably closer to the 80% values obtained fromadoption studies. Our results suggest far smaller heritabilities: broad-sense heritability, which measures the total effect of genes on IQ, is perhaps 48%; narrow-sense heritability, the relevant quantity for evolutionary arguments because it measures the additive effects of genes, is about 34%. Herrnstein and Murray's evolutionary conclusions are tenuous in light of these heritabilities18.

Nothing concrete there lad.

>Yes, there are, how exactly they work and interact with each other is another matter. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying there are no genes for height or eye color. Something a retard would say.

[Anonymous No.11526531]

>>11523923
Again, there is no intelligence gene
There, are as you have so aptly demonstrated a myriad of different genetic markers still be studying and their interactions,mutations, expressions and influence are being studied.

The rest is straw-manning which I never remarked upon, but your statement above actually gives my view weight; we know what codes as alleles for eye colour et al.

Define intelligence; why IQ?
Is IQ a fair measurable metric?
What does it actually measure and how?

>Nice anecdote
t. Anon never went to private school.

Until you acknowledge that wealth and socio-economics play a multitude of interacting roles within whatever genes and Intelligence measurements we cite, you are being a disingenuous /pol/ level dumb-arse.

[Anonymous No.11526536]

>>11526531
>still being studied*

[Anonymous No.11526543]

>>11523396
It's both, you tremendous retard.

[Anonymous No.11526586]

>>11524016
Literally just ideology and wishful thinking.

[Anonymous No.11526773]

>>11526531
There is no gay gene, but there are a multitude of genes for intelligence.

[Anonymous No.11526840]

>>11524016
Hey ho ol' dandy chap, a quite splendorous post but I do wish to humbly point out a few things my poor genes have noted:

>Of course, none of this would surprise you if you understood the nature of expression, and that is phenotype. The interaction between the genotype and the envirotype, nature and nurture are inseparable.

My poor genetics won't allow me to understand
Never said they were not linked, but then what is your point here?

Quotes are fine but as
>>11526586
This is indeed a strand of an interpretation of an ideology; The anon you replied to, wished to sully Plomin's research by implying his own comprehension is what Plomin states.

As the author of your supposed main cited text himself states, "Dr. Haier":
>Genes are not deterministic; as much as they are probabilistic
-In that he elaborates that his findings and future findings with genes and intelligence, may allow our species as a whole, to help raise intelligence.

He does, as you and we cite, not remove environmental factors and gene interplay esp. nutrition and wealth and socio-economic factors.
He certainly does not state
>There is an intelligence gene
or comment on
>>11525730
>But muh Race

Further, back to Plomin and Deary,

>For some areas of behavioural research—especially in psychiatry—the pendulum has swung so far from a focus on nurture to a focus on nature that it is important to highlight a second law of genetics for complex traits and common disorders: All traits show substantial environmental influence, in that heritability is not 100% for any trait. Acceptance of the importance of both genetic and environmental influences leads to interest in the interplay between genes and environment, such as their interaction (moderation) and correlation (mediation) in the development of complex traits, Plomin et al.6 pp 105–127.

so
>Do I need to continue, or have you been schooled enough yet, boy?

Yes lad.
Genetically, is it worth your time?

[Anonymous No.11526854]

>>11525736
kek
That old nugget
Go and check the datasets of just a few of these studies in that cap
One study cited, literally used actual kids from the East African coast who were in a
>Special needs school
as the basis of their IQ scores for that supposed region/race/catergory

Also hideously mis-informed as to the genetic variation within Africa itself.

Biased and disingenuous; Could even be dare I say
>Genetic

[Anonymous No.11526859]

>>11525742
>have had the intelligence to at least be middle class to begin with.

t. USA
Read history outside of the state.
Singapore's history doesn't begin with muh riches.
Or better yet, look at India.

[Anonymous No.11526861]

>>11526773
never said there were not lad.

[Anonymous No.11526877]

>>11526854
>* West African coast*

[Anonymous No.11526901]

>>11523381

[Anonymous No.11526911]

>>11523381
Indians don't have genetically low IQ. They just live like shit right now.

[Anonymous No.11526974]

>>11526840
Ah yes, the old low IQ people live in squalor therefore it's nurture and lets just ignore every counterclaim about their living in squalor being due to having low IQ argument.
Why hasn't Africa pulled a china yet? Why haven't low IQ countries that got flattened in war or natural disasters rebuilt like japan or Germany post ww2? Surely the japs and germans would have had their IQ lowered by this?
Furthermore why is it that north koreans who grew up in abject poverty still score 105 on an IQ test when well fed but africans in the exact same boat test 85? is there any point in arguing with you people? like a flat earther you already have your conclusion and you're just chomping at the bit to find ways to distort reality to match it.

[Anonymous No.11526980]

>>11523897
>there is no intelligence gene
There are genes that are tied to functions of intelligence. Still, we're not talking about a specific gene, but an interplay of many genes.

[Anonymous No.11526992]

>>11523381
IQ is a ridiculous concept. trying to distill human intelligence down to a single number is mind-numbingly stupid. it is no surprise then that IQ isn't a good indicator for financial success. luck and hard work are much more important.

[Anonymous No.11527000]

>>11526992
IQ is not a perfect measure of human intelligence, but it has enough correlation with career and financial success to suggest it's also not meaningless.

[Anonymous No.11527020]

>>11524278
>like the brits, who also lack engineering success
Are you a moron?
Most of the engineering marvels of the modern world were the result of British Engineering

Even in antiquity whilst most of Europe was just bronze tools and weapons, Brits were producing fairly good quality steel for the time

[Anonymous No.11527026]

>>11527020
Wrong. Almost all engineering successes of the modern world are attributable to Germans and Jews.

[Anonymous No.11527067]

>>11527026
>engineering successes
>jewish engineers

bruh

[Anonymous No.11528018]

>second post in thread is /pol/tard saying "no proof Singapore ever took in poor indians, and no wikipedia isn't a source"
>scroll down to the bottom of the thread
>the same poltard says germans and jews are the master race

Never change sci. Stay low quality

[Anonymous No.11528318]

>>11526974

>Why hasn't Africa pulled a china yet

Its resources are controlled by China, and other foreign countries who have never truly attempted to help educate Africans.

> japan or Germany post ww2

Literally rebuilt from the ground-up with US wealth, google the 'Marshall Plan'. You /pol/acks are supposed to know basic history.

>north koreans who grew up in abject poverty still score 105 on an IQ test

<believing North Koreans

>fricans in the exact same boat test 85?

Are you cherrypicking that special needs school again?

>is there any point in arguing with you people?

You weeb-posting racists are the insecure fags who always start these arguments.

[Anonymous No.11528331]

>>11528318
Very good anon but you've neglected a part of my argument
> like a flat earther you already have your conclusion and you're just chomping at the bit to find ways to distort reality to match it.
Please address this before posting more nonsense.

[Anonymous No.11528340]

>>11528318
There are tons of wealthy african people who live in the developed world. Their kids go to expensive schools, have tutors, are raised in homes that push education heavily.
Yet most of these kids perform terribly at any type of standardized test and have to rely on racial discrimination in their favor ('affirmative action') to get into good undergrad schools, get into good law and med schools, get into PhD programs, etc.

[Anonymous No.11529134]

>>11526901
>wealthier countries are less religious anf have higher IQ
Nothing to do with race scumbag.
You just proved it's environmental.

[Anonymous No.11529148]

>>11523396
Evolution BTFO.

[Anonymous No.11529153]

>>11523381
There are half a dozen premises in there.
Firstly demonstrate that they are actually true.

We're the immigrants to Singapore actually representative of the average Indian? Migrant laborers could definitely have an above average IQ. You actually need some data ...

[Anonymous No.11529159]

>>11526992
Are you retarded?

Why do you object to IQ specifically? Certainly it is just as ridiculous to express a humans ability to do sports, or mathematics into a single score. And this is what almost every school does.

This is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

[Anonymous No.11529160]

>>11523381
They never had low IQ + Flynn effect. You're a low IQ retard coping because you wish your genes weren't so dogshit

[Anonymous No.11529166]

>>11526531
>Again, there is no intelligence gene
Evidence?

>Is IQ a fair measurable metric?
IQ is a metric which correlates with everything that we associate with intelligence.

[Anonymous No.11529167]

>>11527067
He's right tho

[Anonymous No.11529206]

>>11523381
>then why are the descendants of low IQ Indians who went to Singapore as migrant laborers now the highest earning ethnic group there?

Indians who went to Singapore were Indian elite.

[Anonymous No.11529775]

>>11527020
so wrong, so hilariously wrong
>brits steel
actually the best steel came from India and the Mideast
inb4 wigger cope

[Anonymous No.11529782]

>>11529775
>>11527026
This is also wrong, engineering was done mostly by Swiss-Germans, and later by the Japanese.
Note that both of these populations are extremely brachycephalic, and also eat dog.

the fact that anyone would suggest BRITS as engineering masters is beyond laff-worthy

[Anonymous No.11529791]

>>11529206
The vast majority of Indian Singaporeans were working-class manual labourer types my guy.

[Anonymous No.11530231]

>>11529782
So the industrial revolution just didn't happen in your version of history huh?

[Anonymous No.11530299]

>>11529791
And?
This still doesn't mean there was no selection, unless you have some data you are just saying things.

[Anonymous No.11530511]

>>11530299
I mean it's perfectly possible there's a selection-effect going on, but given that the vast majority of the immigrants are working-class I don't think the effect would be big enough to justify them being the country's most successful minority given that Singapore is supposed to have an average IQ of over 105.

[Anonymous No.11530566]

>>11528340
Doesn't matter if they are low IQ they will still fail.

[Anonymous No.11530572]

>>11523381
Poos are mad smart, they're just terribly maladjusted and have no social skills.

[Anonymous No.11531347]

>>11528340

> these kids perform terribly at any type of standardized test and have to rely on racial discrimination in their favor ('affirmative action') to get into good undergrad schools, get into good law and med schools, get into PhD programs, etc.

You obviously haven't been on a college campus lately.

>>11528331

>Please address this

Well, weaboo faggot, like a flat earther you already have your conclusion and you're just chomping at the bit to find ways to distort reality to match it.

Please address this before posting more nonsense.

[Anonymous No.11531404]

>>11523462
can confirm, African here and we keep lions as pets and hunt all day. To use the internet I had to go to a cyber cafe 30KM away to write this reply. Ran there too

[Anonymous No.11531953]

>>11523381
>>11523396
Daily reminder that IQ is almost entirely a result of genes and can not be decreased nor increased to any significant degree regardless of the environment.

Best way to prove is to look at Africa. Their IQ is 80. IQ of blacks in America is 85 (and those are people with 25% european admixture). Africa of course, is place full of diseases, malnutrition, poverty, illiteracy and their IQ is still almost the same as blacks living in first world country have.
This is enough to prove that your IQ is virtually immutable and environment has no effect on it.

inb4
>muh Lynn
Lynn is a fraud. His research has been debunked and shown to be biased because he is racist. Fuck off
>>>/pol/

[Anonymous No.11531958]

>>11524260
>Indian IQ is artificially deflated by poverty
>white IQ is artificially inflated by wealth
You have it backwards. White wealth is inflated by their high IQ and indian poverty is deflated by their low IQ.

[Anonymous No.11531963]

>>11523462
>The reason IQ is so low in central African countries is because they received very little childhood education that would help someone in a developed economy.
Blacks who live in developed country and have received that education have the same IQ as Africans.

[Anonymous No.11531965]

>>11529791
>The vast majority of Indian Singaporeans were working-class manual labourer types my guy.

Almost everyone was manual laborer at the time. But only the most clever manual laborers went to emigrate to other countries. Lazy and dumb ones stayed home.

[Anonymous No.11531966]

>>11523580
>>11523767
Noice
I haven't seen any OP get BTFO this hard in very long time.

[Anonymous No.11531977]

>>11523462
>The reason IQ is so low in central African countries is because they received very little childhood education that would help someone in a developed economy.
Can you provide evidence for this?

[Anonymous No.11532003]

>>11523381
A better argument is "If IQ is largely genetic then why black science guy?"

[Anonymous No.11532007]

>>11523381
>if I pull out the premise from my ass, then why does the thread stink like shit?

[Anonymous No.11532042]

>>11532003
Because genetics. If height is genetic why are there 7 ft female Chinese basket ball players?

[Anonymous No.11532081]

>>11532003
>A better argument is "If IQ is largely genetic then why black science guy?"
No, it absolutely isn't, because NOBODY denies that black people can be intelligent.
What the issue is, is that black people do not have the same distribution of intelligence that white people do, which can NOT be proven or disproven by example.

[Anonymous No.11532246]

>>11523791
no study accounts for the fact that smart kids were raised by parents. in my opinion there is too much variables to reach any solid conclusion.
also psychology is too full of assumptions and empty claims to be considered science or math so go post this on /pol/ or /lit/ or whatever

[Anonymous No.11532287]

>>11532246
>no study accounts for the fact that smart kids were raised by parents.
Huh? We have studies with identical twins who were separated shortly after birth and raised by different parents. The IQ for the twins is highly correlated, despite being raised apart.

[Anonymous No.11532737]

>>11531953
>Former slaves and second class citizens dont give a shit about school and your society

Wow.. this is a truly groundbreaking discovery