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/sci/ - Science & Math

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1141976 No.1141976 [Reply] [Original]

SO. Europa.

It's one of the most tantalizing bodies in the solar system, and potentially one of the only locations therein (besides the earth) with a liquid ocean. Recent studies (2009) have concluded that cosmic rays should interact with the surface ice in a manner that oxidizes the water below. All of this colludes into an exciting potential breeding ground for extra terrestrial life. However, conclusively proving the existence of liquid water remains a challenge, let alone piercing a layer of ice several kilometers thick. It's a daunting task, to be sure, but the revelations we might stumble upon are surely worth the expense.

So, let's outline a hypothetical mission. What's the most cost effective way to take a look at the sub-surface, and, following that, the best way to tunnel past the surface layer? How would you set up the journey there, and stage the mission as a whole?

The world is your oyster, /sci/. Let's come up with some ideas.

>> No.1142012

i dont know

>> No.1142034

to get through the ice you could just drop a metal probe and it would eventually sink through the ice.

>> No.1142037

>but the revelations we might stumble upon are surely worth the expense.

1 trillion dollars to discover space plankton?
GTFO

>> No.1142050
File: 22 KB, 250x444, monolith_action_figure_main.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1142050

What part of "ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE" didn't you understand?

>> No.1142059

ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE

>> No.1142078

I was watching a video on this in science class. An engineer is creating a probe to land on Europa, I forget when it's set to land there. I believe it was within the decade though.

>> No.1142089

>>1142037
>1 trillion dollars
You're kind of stupid, aren't you.

>> No.1142095

Find the shallowest ice
drill
send in aquatic probe
????
PROFIT

>> No.1142109

cheap and easy: crash a satellite into it like we did with the moon

>>layer of ice several kilometers thick
>>several kilometers thick

...oh
well I'm out of ideas

>> No.1142120

>>1142095
how does one find the shallowest ice?
how does one power the drill? (solar is too weak at that range to run a smallish probe (especially one that will spend a fair amount of time in the dark))

>> No.1142128

>>1142078
the ESA was supposed to send it in 2012, but due to funding restraints the project was postponed indefinitely (which is Space Agency speak for FUCKIN' ICED, which sucks because several components of the mission had already been developed. :( )

>> No.1142129

a ton of mirrors, melt a hole through that bitch from orbit

>> No.1142132

Fuck, I don't know. Figure out a way to synthesize anti-matter then just obliterate the ice.

>> No.1142133

>>1142120
Nuclear reactor. You can use it as both a power source and a thermal drill.

>> No.1142136

>>1141976
>It's one of the most tantalizing bodies in the solar system

i didnt know your mom changed her name

>> No.1142139

>>1142128

I don't think it was that one. I remember the picture of the probe. It was yellow and spherical.

>> No.1142143

2010: Odyssey Two.

Read it, bitches.

>> No.1142146
File: 1.03 MB, 704x400, ironman jig.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1142146

>>1142120
how do they find the shallowest ice on earth?

also send in the iron man.

>> No.1142152

>>1142139
If I remember correctly it was meant to be an orbiter. There was another mission that proposed a method similar to Deep Impact, where they would analyze the debris from a controlled crash.

>> No.1142159

>>1142136

You're into fat syphilitic cripples too huh? hi five

>> No.1142160

>>1142128

Worldwide economic catastrophes tend to do that to frivolous projects.

>> No.1142170

>>1142152
>controlled crash
lol

>> No.1142173

Send a programmed ship/AI to land onto it, with a drill inside of the ship, send 5 people on the ship so they can fix w/e fucks up and prep the drill and guide it, and test the results. No mission back, but we don't tell them that.

>> No.1142183

>>1142173

>No mission back, but we don't tell them that.

>implying they won't have some sort of gauge indicating the amount of reaction mass in the tanks
>implying they wouldn't notice a change in acceleration as the reaction mass runs out and that they couldn't use that to measure how much remass the ship has left

>> No.1142191

>>1142160
Solving the economic crisis should take precedent, I agree, but a mission to Europa would be hardly frivolous.

>> No.1142225

This is all pure motherfucking speculation. There is nothing close to hard evidence suggesting that any factors that would lead to there being liquid water are present. Scientists are just seeing what they want to see and the scientific method is being corrupted.

>> No.1142319

>>1142225
Read up on europa's geological features. Plenty of people considerably smarter than you or I have spent a lot of time mathematically proving that liquid water is probable due to the tidal forces incurred by Jupiter. The notion of a liquid is far from baseless.

>> No.1142346

>>1142225

Europa's entire upper ice shell shifted 30º.

Thirty. Fucking. Degrees.

Explain how this could happen if the ice was attached directly to the rock. Explain how this could happen if there wasn't an underground ocean underneath Europa's ice shell.

>> No.1142345 [DELETED] 

lulz i found sum child porn featuren christopeher pooolar bear hearways :tinyurl dawt com / 39poqjq 9ba921c942b221c987806f85daa7b4ba

>> No.1142348

Guys the aliens are trapped under the ice, if we break it to get down there the aliens will escape and fucking exterminate us

>> No.1142375

I don't know..
If the world was my oyster and I had the funds of the world behind me... I'd... Probably fund a project to create a super-massive laser, attach it to a satellite, melt a huge-ass hole through the ice and send in an aquatic probe.

Also, giant space laser.

>> No.1142417

there will be jellyfish there i bet

>> No.1142424

I'd use artificial Na'vi.

>> No.1142426

I'd use the cryobot/hydrobot method currently being used to penetrate the ice of Lake Vostok.

Speaking of Lake Vostok, a team of Russians only have about 100m left to drill before they hit liquid water. If there's life down there, it'll be the most isolated ecosystem on earth, and will be a good case study for an icy moon like Europa.

>> No.1142444

How bout the probe itself geos into the ice? that way, it the ice closes around u, and a hole to space won't corrupt the data. A plus would be that u only need to melt the ice under you to drill through, and not waste energy keeping the hole open.

However, satalite uplink would be an issue. Sudjestions?

>> No.1142445

>>1142426
I hope there'll be weird skeletal squid that are like 250 feet long living down there. Something out of a horror movie or something.

>> No.1142460

Ignite large quantities of thermite on the surface. Design a tunnel boring machine to place support rings along the ice as the thermite fire bores a tunnel. Deploy an "underwater rover" with microscopic capable camera systems also capable of measuring for chemical evidence of life.

>> No.1142469

>>1142460
Wait shit, that'd only work with oxygen present... fuck.

>> No.1142472

What if the layer of ice is the only thing keeping an entire ecosystem intact and drilling fucks it up for the entire population of the planet?

>> No.1142487

>cosmic rays should interact with the surface ice in a manner that oxidizes the water below.
HOT DAMN, enough to have a working ecosystem?

anyways, if there isn't any space plankton, I say we inject it with some tiny cel level organisms that could live there and make our own space ant farm.

>> No.1142496

>>1142472
a small hole isn't going to fuck up an entire planet.

>> No.1142499 [DELETED] 

>>1141972
lulz i found sum child porn featuren christopeher pooolar bear hearways :tinyurl dawt com / 39poqjq 03436920eefca11790c71a5f01170e8d

>> No.1142505

>>1142472

it's not a planet

>> No.1142508

>>1142505
oh right. i forgot we were talking about europa for a minute. and that's just dancing around the point, one little hole isn't going to fuck it up.

>> No.1142514

>>1142496
>>1142505
>>1142508

What about fucking up a small portion of the population of the moon?

>> No.1142519

>>1142487

space ant farm.
>alien ant farm

>> No.1142526

>>1142508

i wasn't that guy, i agree with you. we aren't gonna fuck shit up with one little drill

>> No.1142529
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1142529

Titan here
Europa is small time

>> No.1142532

>>1142514
then it fucks up a small portion. if we discover life on europa, it'll be the biggest breakthrough in human science to date, no question. if a little bit is lost, so be it.

>> No.1142534

A nuclear reactor seems the only viable option for providing enough long-term power to drill through the ice sheet. Unfortunately, nobody seems to think launching a nuclear reactor into space is a very good idea.

>> No.1142537
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1142537

>>1142514

fucking wah for Europa.

we are human.
we can fuck up what we like.
Europa prepare your anus.

>> No.1142540

we know about tidal forces from cracks that form from the gravitational forces and let water temporarily seep up

let's find where that is going on

>> No.1142541

>>1142526
exactly. it just pisses me off that nasa gets so little funding. i mean this fucking planet sucks. we need to prepare for the long term and get the fuck into space as soon as we can.

>> No.1142545

>>1142529

you're still my favourite Titan.
keep on truckin' bro.

>> No.1142546 [DELETED] 

lulz i found sum child porn featuren christopeher pooolar bear hearways :tinyurl dawt com / 39poqjq 436987176955e2ab3c342c5f7a2eadec

>> No.1142558

>>1142534
There's plenty of radiation out there to begin with. Why would it matter? A massive melt down or explosion? Chances are that it will do nothing at all to harm anything if it was in space, and if it happened on a planet or moon, the effects would be minimal to the planet/moon. It's not like it would split it in half.

>> No.1142565

>>1142558

thinking like this is how we end up with oil slicks bigger than Puerto Rico

>> No.1142573

>>1142565
Nuke space, I don't give a fuck. It has it coming, being all dark and shit.

>> No.1142605

>>1142565

and thinking like you, you god damn hippie, is what curtails aggressive expansion, which is the only true way forward for mankind.

>> No.1142609

>>1142573

its the nigger of the universe

>> No.1142612

>>1142605

so we get to be the proverbial locusts upon the universe, only dying out once we've used up or destroyed any viable source of life?

>> No.1142622

>>1142529
When life is confirmed on both of them I say we gather some of the critters from Earth, Titan and Europa and make them fight, pokemon style.

>> No.1142620 [DELETED] 

lulz i found sum child porn featuren christopeher pooolar bear hearways :tinyurl dawt com / 39poqjq 7630469911d83c6a650d4e7d4982d0ea

>> No.1142627

>>1142612

oh i'm sorry do you write the laws of the universe? we can do whatever the fuck we want.

GTFO and take your fucking hippie attitude with you, you have no place in science.

>> No.1142628

>>1142622

>life confirmed on Europa

wat

>> No.1142632

>>1142612
That's the exact point of existence. To destroy everything in your path so you will reign supreme and uncontested.

>> No.1142633

>>1142605
When humanity reaches the stars, mankind's evolutionary direction will part along the lines of conservatives and liberals.

>> No.1142639

>>1142627

and you have no place in the living world. go back to your death camp, Mengele

>> No.1142643

>>1142639

you just got alpha-ed bitch

>> No.1142645

>>1142639

cry, cry forever moar fag

>> No.1142650
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1142650

>My face when the last thing the probe sees is the maw of a giant space kraken

>> No.1142656

>>1142639

All progress requires sacrifice.

>> No.1142657

>>1142650

kraken is such an awesome word

>> No.1142659

>>1142643

I had nothing of the sort. People are a disease and I leave it at that, I will gladly curtail them in any way I can. We will kill ourselves off long before space exploration of a viable sense to find new habitable planets is capable, so I'm not going to worry about it.

I ain't even mad.jpg

>> No.1142666

>>1142657

Not if pronounced correctly.

>> No.1142673
File: 47 KB, 630x592, wut.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1142673

>>1142650
>My face when the Kraken escapes through the hole in the ice

>> No.1142677

>>1142659

People like you are actually the disease. The cancerous cells that impede progress and gnaw away at all we have accomplished. If you hate mankind so much, fuck off from the rest off us and an hero.

>> No.1142680

>>1142487
>In September 2009, planetary scientist Richard Greenberg calculated that cosmic rays impacting on Europa's surface convert the ice into oxidizers, which could then be absorbed into the ocean below as water wells up to fill cracks. Via this process, Greenberg estimates that Europa's ocean could eventually achieve an oxygen concentration greater than that of Earth's oceans within just a few million years. This would enable Europa to support not merely anaerobic microbial life but potentially larger, aerobic organisms such as fish.[73]

>> No.1142686
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1142686

>>1142673

>my face when europa kraken can fly through space and rapes earth

>> No.1142687

>>1142677
>>1142659
Guys, mellow your harsh. Science takes no sides.

>> No.1142688

>>1142677

QQ moar. I will be here to knock you down several pegs.

>> No.1142689

>>1142677
People like you are a disease who will stop at knowing to learn everything regardless of the human tragedy. We have a word for people like you, Dr. Mengle.

>> No.1142695

>>1142534


lolwut? The newest mars rover is going to be nuclear powered. Sit down, newbcake.

>> No.1142699

>>1142689

if all humans were like you we'd all still be banging rocks together in caves and praying to invisible sky daddys... wait.

>> No.1142700
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1142700

>>1142686

>> No.1142711

>>1142695
I didn't know that, that's pretty cool.

>> No.1142715

>>1142711


Yeap. Planned launch is in March.

>> No.1142719

>>1142715


Don't know why I said march, had wrong idea in my head, double checked - it's late 2011.

>> No.1142721
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1142721

>>1142686

>> No.1142736

>>1142699
And there you have it, science is agnostic, people are not. As long as people wield science, it is beholden to their view point. And many studies have shown that people can have wildly discoherent thoughts and actions.

>> No.1142740
File: 83 KB, 402x700, eosapien.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1142740

>>1142686
>>1142700
>>1142673
>>1142650

Oh, hai u guyz.

>> No.1142755

>>1142719
*woots and fistpumps for everyone*

>> No.1142769

I think the world should join as a single country and pour funding into space exploration like a motherfucker.

>> No.1142776

>>1142769
That is the ideal for 95% of /sci/ posters. Coincidentally 95% of /sci/ posters watched Star Trek as a kid.

>> No.1142791

>>1142776

There was no money in the Star Trek universe.

Good luck with that.

>> No.1142794

>>1142776
Blech, I fucking hate Star Trek.

I do fall into the first 95% though.

Video games, science, space, and sex. The only thing I need in life. And I can do without the sex.

>> No.1142798

>>1142769
Yep, and all we have to do is eliminate nationalisPFFFAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

>> No.1142813

>>1142776
I do not watch much Star Trek. Maybe one episode a year, if it's on television and there's nothing else worth watching on. I mainly want to see Earth join as a country, get to the point where traveling massive distances in a short period of time is possible ( If possible ) and then raping and destroying any sentient life we come across and harvesting the planet of any useful resources.

>> No.1142838
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1142838

>>1142680
>Reasonable potential for space fish

>> No.1142863
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1142863

>>1142680
Oxygen breathing animals with no plants???

>> No.1142874

>>1142863
Algae broseph

>> No.1142878

>>1142863
Hold on, pause the discussion, I need to save this picture.

>> No.1142920

>>1142878
Okay I got it, resume.

>> No.1142934
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1142934

>>1142874
I suppose I should have elaborated.

Oxygen breathing animals with no photosynthesizing species???

>> No.1142959

>>1142934
Lol I don't know, mang. Thermal vents?

>> No.1142961

>>1142934
aquatic fungi?

>> No.1142964

but Titan is a lot more promising at the moment

>> No.1142970

>>1142964
Can't we investigate both? :(

>> No.1142999

ITT a bunch of people who haven't seen the TED video.

>> No.1143005

>>1142863 43 KB
>>1142878 01:35
>>1142920 01:41

now that's a slow internet connection

>> No.1143008

>>1142999
Can you give me a brief rundown?

>> No.1143014

>>1142964
Nu-uh.

>> No.1143024

The US gives a trillion dollars to wallstreet, hundreds of billions to AIG, and are currently expected to spend over a trillion in military affairs... Yet we can't even go back to the moon.

>> No.1143030

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHohF2DOoek

Mission to explore Europa for life.

>> No.1143032

>>1143024
Can't? You mean want. The US doesn't want to go to the Moon. Too much money and we already have the technology to send a nuke anywhere on Earth, so the whole human exploration thing isn't needed as a red herring anymore.

>> No.1143037

>>1143032
Also, the shortsightedness of politicians knows no equal.

>> No.1143064

>>1143037
You can't look at society as a bunch of conscious beings. We are all cogs, animals in a society that sorts us via specific selective criteria. Politicians are the cogs that are best at getting elected. The traits that benefit reelection don't perfectly coincide with those one would hope a politican would have.

In the US one doesn't undertake anything that will take more than 4 years to come to fruition.

>> No.1143129

>>1143064
The cold, sad truth.

>> No.1143130

>>1143064
One doesn't undertake anything that can't be understood by the lowest common denominator.

>> No.1143359

Guys.

Guys.

What if...

What if

Guys

What if there's a city

Guys, a CITY

On EUROPA

>> No.1143386

>>1143359
Well, that would just be the craziest shit, wouldn't it.

>> No.1143391

The only vessel of the life is the Earth.

>> No.1143397

>>1143391
trollface.jpg

>> No.1143426

>>1142740
Sup, floating scrote beast?

>> No.1143433

Just watched the TED talk, shit was so cash.

>> No.1143650

>>1143433
What does TED stand for?

>> No.1143675

>>1143650
Total Egalitarian Drivel

>> No.1143702

If I don't get a probe specifically directed toward Europa within my lifetime I'm gonna be seriously mad.

>> No.1143738
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1143738

OHAI EARTHLINGS! :3

>> No.1143767

>>1143738
Water Bear, what are you doing here, you don't belong here.

>> No.1143905
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1143905

>>1142612
It's what Earth wants us to do. Don't you see?

>> No.1143916

>>1143738
If I could morph like animorphs I'd be a water bear.

>> No.1143942

>>1143916
If I could morph like animorphs I'd be a tree.

>> No.1143953

HAL9000 HERE, YOU CAN CONQUER ALL THE WORLDS BUT NOT EUROPA, FUCK OFF YOU FAGGOTS

>> No.1144014

>>1143953
HAL ain't shit.

>> No.1144029 [DELETED] 
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1144029

>> No.1144115

>>1143905
"Planetism"?

>> No.1144171

>Probe launched 2016, will arrive in 2019

HELL YEAH MOTHER FUCKERS

>> No.1144496

honestly high precession long range bombings, bomb the same spot over and over and over.... then if something is still alive send a prob if not why bother spending all that money. Honestly bombs are cheap the planning and coordinating would be the only problem... but we has math for that

>> No.1144822

>>1142469
>He thinks Thermite doesn't have its own oxidizer.

>> No.1144878

>>1142050
>>1142059
MONOLITHMIND

>> No.1144931
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1144931

>> No.1144943
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1144943

Build a drill. Outsource it to someone experienced in this, like BP. We could call it "Deep Space Horizon".

>> No.1144960
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1144960

>> No.1145120

>>1144496
We already have an autonomous submarine ready to go, and the thermal drill technology to get past the ice. DepthX has it covered. All we need is the money to send it into space.

>> No.1145126

>>1144960
Use the most unflattering picture, why don't you. There was probably a space mammoth just out of frame.

>> No.1145142

>>1144931
It's funny because the moon is actually slowly drifting away from earth.

>> No.1145144

>>1145126
There is no liquid water.

>> No.1145149
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1145149

fuck yes ice planets

>> No.1145165

$10 says there is no life orbiting Sol save on Earth. If life was that prevalent we would no doubt hear the chatter of interstellar civilizations, which we don't.

>> No.1145186

The surface temperature of Europa must be less than -100 degrees!

How deep would you need to drill before you accessed the heated core which would counteract the cold of space and the water beneath the surface becomes water?

Maybe Europas geothermal *ahem* europa-thermal energy is already spent. for all we know the core of europa is as cold as the surface.

You would need to fly some serious deep borehole equipment there to have any chance of unlocking this conundrum

>> No.1145201

>>1145186
>geothermal *ahem* europa-thermal energy

Derp, we don't call it earthothermal now do we? It's still geothermal

>> No.1146689

>>1145165
You need to work on your sense of scale bro.

>> No.1146729

>>1145201
Geo is Greekspeak for earth.

>> No.1146770

>>1145186

There are thousands of examples of microorganisms able to survive in extreme sub-zero temperatures. Why would extra-terrestrial microorganisms be any different?

Anyway, whilst a bit farfetched, I think I speak for all of humanity (Or at least, Atheists) when I say it would be wonderful if we found a civilisation underneath the ice. They would probably have never been out above the ice, so that might put them on a level similar to ours or possibly an earlier time.

But then, of course, some highly religious country (coughUSAcough) is going to go ape shit over the entire thing and bomb the "blasphemous" poor things.