Optimal inbreeding, kissing cousins, and Mediogamy

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Optimal inbreeding, kissing cousins, and Mediogamy Anonymous Mon Dec 30 18:52:51 2019 No.11265272 [Reply] [Original]

Should we be marrying within 4th cousins?

I've recently come across the work of esteemed anthropologist Robin Fox and his research on marriage customs and fertility including varied levels of incest.
http://robin-fox.com/tribal-blogs
http://www.robin-fox.com/laws-and-generalizations

And Agnes Helgason et al's 2008 paper "An Association between Kinship and Fertility of Human Couples" does strengthen the argument.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 30 18:54:25 2019 No.11265274 >>11265272 *Agnar Helgason

Anonymous Mon Dec 30 19:06:26 2019 No.11265296

A piece he contributed to "the Handbook on evolution and society(2015)" titled "marry in or die out" which due to being a sample isn't quite complete
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mCTvCgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Handbook+on+Evolution+and+Society&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8ws77odvmAhWDiVwKHRLsAEkQ6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=mediogamy&f=false

if someone happens to have a download link for the full document I'd appreciate it
anonfile.com

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 31 00:04:02 2019 No.11265932 the idea that societal collapse can be modelled as increasingly more fragmented family mods is unsettling but eye opening, I'd never realised how much of a historic oddity our breeding level is.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 31 12:01:05 2019 No.11266780 >>11265932 family units outbreeding level

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 31 12:10:21 2019 No.11266812 >>11265272 It's no coincidence that the less inbred a society, the less kids they have

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 31 12:39:49 2019 No.11266875 >>11266812 But what is the fundamental mechanism here?

Anonymous Tue Dec 31 17:00:20 2019 No.11267538

>>11266875
by that I mean is it the genetic compatibility causing the higher fertility or that they're more close knit social bonds associated with a population where you were significant;y more likely to marry within a 4th cousin that promoted higher efficiency of child rearing and interconnectedness?
he points to an inherent quality of expanding populations becoming increasingly distinct and unconnected from one another.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 1 10:10:03 2020 No.11269034 Where would someone find animal studies exploring inbreeding vs outbreeding depression?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 1 10:14:51 2020 No.11269046 >>11269034 Rats are super inbred. 8 generations of brother sister incest.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 1 13:16:43 2020 No.11269363 >>11269046 if you inbreed for long enough does the inbreeding depression go away as you gradually expunge the deleterious recessives?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 1 13:30:38 2020 No.11269396 >>11265272 >its a /sci/ doesn’t understand evolutionary genetics thread lol

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 1 17:18:49 2020 No.11269962 >>11269396 What does evolutionary genetics have to say about social kinship bonds?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 07:59:26 2020 No.11271177 >>11269363 Yes I think so.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 08:23:10 2020 No.11271200

>>11266812
Scandinavia doesnt fit that model, they are quite inbred, didnt they even have an app in iceland where it told you if the person you are dating is (distant) relative. In other words they are quite inbred but have fewer children. Pakistan on the other hand is very inbred and they have lots of kids. Therefore it seems the number of kids is dependant on current cultural trends rather than how much genetic diversity there is between you and your partner

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 10:24:08 2020 No.11271408

>>11271200
pakistan has something like 60% 1st cousin marriages Icelanders don't have anywhere near that high a rate, you wouldn't even need the app for preventing first cousin marriage.
it's one of the reasons pakis are so ethnocentric and thuggish.
islamic countries really suffer from the high levels of cosanguinity hammering down their IQ and making them more violent

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 11:51:19 2020 No.11271606 >>11271408 1. IQ doesn't exist. 2. Indians are not inbred at all yet they can't handle their inbred neighbour and frankly they don't look better than pakis either.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 12:20:47 2020 No.11271678 >>11271606 >IQ doesn't exist. is this a new meme?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 12:22:21 2020 No.11271687 >>11271678 Is better than wasting our time arguing bout flawed meassuring methods.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 12:29:29 2020 No.11271699 >>11269363 >the virgin normal >has a bunch of dogshit recessive genes that he might pass to his children >the chad eigth generation inbred >literally only alive because of his perfect recessive genes Man, biology is beautiful.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 12:45:17 2020 No.11271741

>>11271699
the negative argument might be that you're removing deleterious recessive genes like cystic fibrosis that give you tolerance against tuberculosis when they're heterogeneous
so even if you combine two inbred lines they'd both have expunged the highly adaptive cf gene meaning they would die of TB while the outbred population survives

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 13:12:36 2020 No.11271826 >>11271741 Most people aren't even heterogeneous for cystic fibrosis. It causes more suffering than it provides protection. Might as well eliminate it.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 13:22:12 2020 No.11271849

>>11271826
I think that given the rise of drug resistant TB that might be a bad idea in the long term, any natural resistance for such a menace is a boon
I was more trying to highlight an incidence of heterogeneity being more adaptive, since there are a number of genes associated with intelligence that perform better as different alleles
found a mouse study comparing inbred vs outbred male fitness and adaptability.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC16238/

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 13:23:45 2020 No.11271854 >>11271849 >It's another study on how mice life involves doing dumb shit a lot. Who would have guessed.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 13:26:44 2020 No.11271860 >>11271849 That makes it pretty hard to select for smart genes if heterogeneity is what gives them their power

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 13:32:32 2020 No.11271876

>>11271860
There is a quite well studied gene in race horses that affects their ability to be successful at differing race lengths.
If they're homogeneous for one they're better at short track, if they're homogeneous for the other they're better at long distance, if they're heterogeneous they're better at intermediate distances.
all three combinations are advantageous under different conditions.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 13:48:18 2020 No.11271902 >>11271876 So a trifecta of combinations is a universal truth. That's nice to know.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 20:01:40 2020 No.11272805 >>11271876 https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/speed-and-stamina-a-tale-of-two-genes the gene effects myostatin the two alleles are known C & T

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 20:54:02 2020 No.11272902

>>11265272
Yes homogenus is the best gene pool its top tier eugenics. It is why Europeans conquered and created the world from effectively breeding with someone a distant enough cousin but, not foreign that they would lose their genetic advantages. Which helped with sexual selection having light skin, light eyes and hair to darker features with olive skin.

>>11271200
Nice pseudoscience retard, Scandinavians have the healthiest gene pool, the Icelandic are very recent from one population of Norway the difference being they are aware of it. Scandinavians are homogeneous which is why they have the best looking, highest iq and have a huge ratio of doing well in athletics for having such small populations. They effectively filtered out most of the shit genetics, so they don't have retarded people like you.

The eskimos are very inbred, the Pakistanis, Iraqis ,jews and most muslim countries are the most inbred people because they marry their sisters and 1st cousins. Practicing dsygenics.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 21:05:55 2020 No.11272937 >>11272902 >the Icelandic are very recent from one population of Norway they're slightly closer to the irish than the norwegians

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 21:44:19 2020 No.11273010

I wonder how this applies to an insular country like Japan?
Japan used to have these hugely violent clan warfare past, due to father's brother's daughter marriage practices supposedly I think the shogunate outlawed this marriage law and weakened the clan structure and unifying the nation, yet japan beneath the surface is still very insular and stand offish and has quite a lot of incestuous themes in its culture even its founding myths is incestuous and derive from a marriage between a brother and sister Izanagi and Izanami) giving birth to two devils after getting the marriage ceremony customs slightly wrong then birth to all the islands when they did the ceremony again properly.
the Prime Minister is literally married to his cousin.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 22:25:42 2020 No.11273099 >>11271687 but worse than accepting the scientific consensus that IQ is meaningful and highly predictive

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:50:17 2020 No.11273279 File: 445 KB, 813x1803, Ibex_OutbreedingDepression.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Here is an interesting case on outbreeding depression, with important considerations for conservation projects.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:06:03 2020 No.11273314 >>11273010 Kek abe is married to his cousin? I wonder why the honorable japanese are never given crap for liking incest.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:20:49 2020 No.11273361 Not gonna lie my cousin is hot as fuck, I'd smash her. She's kind of a slut too

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 03:30:33 2020 No.11273688 >>11273361 I'm more curious about the effects of marriage practice on social bonds and fertility.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 03:35:37 2020 No.11273691
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>>11265272
If I had an attractive cousin that was into it, I'd potentially marry her. Don't even care. The reason certain groups practice this is to maintain the maternal line, ie, the mitochondrial DNA. Unfortunately my mtDNA dies with me, and though a woman probably exists with it, I actually did look back on my family tree and there is no unbroken female line. Given that we routinely live into our hundreds and are highly durable, it's a real shame.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 11:22:39 2020 No.11274339 File: 420 KB, 672x1017, 1560002963823.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11265296 Z library has it

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 12:34:30 2020 No.11274474 >>11274339 Z library?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 12:35:47 2020 No.11274480 >>11274474 just g- duckduckgo it

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 12:36:25 2020 No.11274483 >>11265272 Yes!

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:21:58 2020 No.11274657

>>11274339
cheers
I've anchored a local link
the Handbook on evolution and society (Jonathan H. Turner, Richard Machalek, Alexandra Maryanski [2015])
https://anonfile.com/r7f6QaKbn4/The_Handbook_on_evolution_and_society_Jonathan_H._Turner_Richard_Machalek_Alexandra_M_z-lib.org_pdf

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:46:38 2020 No.11274721 >>11273688 There's greater social bonds when relatives marry

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 15:19:00 2020 No.11274777 >>11274721 yes but how does it affect the society what level of cosanguinous marriage has what effects? someone must have applied computer models to this problem.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:04:55 2020 No.11274978 >>11274777 They haven't. I'd like to do so at some point if I can get involved. Wouldn't wanna spearhead the research myself because it's weird.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:16:57 2020 No.11274996

>>11274978
I think there are ways to present it such that it doesn't feel as weird, such as "the effect of consanguinity on ethnocentric violence" perhaps load it with a few negative terms that keeps it under the casual radar?
I'm not sure how one might build it but you could use historical genealogy, and crime/war records such as the japanese have but you might find the language barrier a problem in some cases though there should be anthropological studies on some recent or contemporary societies or tribal groups and clans.

This might be a little relevant
http://www.yourarticlelibrary.com/essay/marriage-among-the-tribals-in-india/47423

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:53:10 2020 No.11275196

i'm american, went to a top 100 university, male, sterilized eectric cautery w fi. obviously the sperm wil be the perfect environment. look at the genetic alleles, it's not going to be decisive either way. but let's look at high stakes: you're with a sibling or distant and you have to traverse long distances & hardship. the perfect vessel would be most like you. there's definitely been drastic inbreeding in anyone's lineage.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:54:16 2020 No.11275203 >>11275196 electric cautery*

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:57:34 2020 No.11275213 >>11275196 i dont condone breeding. but if your mate is a relative that's what it is. fem takes bc pills or shots.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:57:37 2020 No.11275214 >>11275196 What?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:00:23 2020 No.11275223 >>11275214 we've been on this planet for thousands of millions of years, with no birth control. dont breed, but dont let incest stop u

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:10:44 2020 No.11275245 >>11275223 No, the passage you previously wrote does not seem to make logical sense.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:12:56 2020 No.11275247 >>11275245 He went to top 100, he's IQ must be in the 200s.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:24:33 2020 No.11275275 [DELETED]

>>11275196
Wait are you arguing that under harsh conditions being more closely related than usuial to members of your group makes you more wiling to sacrifice yourself for the good of the group because they share a higher proportion of the same genes as you do?
Somewhat like an ant colony?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 05:57:49 2020 No.11276277 how many third cousins are you likely to have? assuming 2 kids per marriage 2 first cousins 4 second cousins 8 third cousins how much is a product of total variation in possible marriage candidates?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 16:31:55 2020 No.11277331 >>11276277 Wait no, my maths is shit, you have two parents that number's way too low 1st = 4 2nd = 16 3rd = 64 4th = 256 Which is a really low estimate, since no historically relevant person stopped at only two kids if thjey could help it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 19:21:27 2020 No.11277804 Keep this thread bumped it's important

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 5 09:14:53 2020 No.11279263 >>11275196 Your post is literally incomprehensible

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 5 11:11:42 2020 No.11279457 How bizarre? did someone removed my comment?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 5 18:03:13 2020 No.11280321 File: 9 KB, 1300x113, 1552577853414.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11279457 Lol I thought you deleted it but clearly you didn't. Did a janitor think you were referring to Asian people when you said ant colony?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 5 18:06:45 2020 No.11280332 >>11280321 Yeah that one, it's really odd I'd rather assume error or incompetence than malice but one can't really tell.

Anonymous Sun Jan 5 18:13:42 2020 No.11280356

>>11266875
I was thinking that first cousins and second cousins marriages are probably not very sophisticated people and probably found each other early on and started having kids in their teens or early twenties. But I cant explain the slow decline after that.
There's still a notable decline between 5th and 8th cousin.

Anonymous Sun Jan 5 18:21:25 2020 No.11280380
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>>11280356
I wonder how one can explain that countries like colombia and nicaragua (high mestizo populations) had birth rates of over 6 and 7 children in the 50's.
Even though mestizo's would be 4th cousins, genetically they would be further apart than 4th cousins from a homogeneous population.

Anonymous Sun Jan 5 18:32:22 2020 No.11280410

>>11280356
Actually that could well be a powerful driver, since total female fertility correlates with the age at marriage, and a second or third cousin would be much easier to find to marry your daughter to than a stranger who would likely meet later in their life and have fewer fertile years?
anyone outside of 4th cousin is probably as good as a complete stranger anyway.
I would also consider the low movement of people from place to place, maybe you would marry someone from the next village over who is more likely to be a relative of some sort?
their could definitely be some genetic compatability effect going on too at the boundary between inbreeding depression vs outbreeding depression as we see in fitness traus with animalstudies.

>>11280380
I'm speculating that the genetic compatability fertility rate is less important than the age of marriage and you're more likely to find a mate at a younger age if they're part of your wider extended family.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 00:50:42 2020 No.11281045 File: 161 KB, 1280x1185, Helgason_4graphs.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11265272

Anonymous Mon Jan 6 01:43:54 2020 No.11281087
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bullshit
we've all been told by the media and schools for decades now that if you want healthy and robust grandchildren then you must let your white daughters be bred by the most genetically distant black bulls so the spawn can enjoy the benefits of hybrid vigor

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 12:31:20 2020 No.11281775 >>11281045 I don't understand these graphs, how are they measuring relatedness? what is the original paper? How do the child numbers work? are they deviations above or below the mean?

Anonymous Mon Jan 6 16:43:33 2020 No.11282266

>>11274657
the Handbook on evolution and society
https://files.catbox.moe/5mhzqe.pdf

Helgason, A., Palsson, S., Guthbjartsson, D. F., Kristjansson, t., & Stefansson, K. (2008). An Association Between the Kinship and Fertility of Human Couples. Science,
https://files.catbox.moe/m7d882.pdf

Anonymous Mon Jan 6 17:28:51 2020 No.11282405

>>11266812
surely you have a well layed out argument of to why such numbers are not only correlations and an insightful explanation the hidden causalities?

Without and further details,
I'd expect that inbreeding happens more often when the people are less educated and less mobile.
these two factors are strongly correlated with poverty which is strongly correlated with the number of children.

So I see no reason to conclude any positive effects of inbreeding exist; not for a local group of individuals and even less for the whole species as such.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 17:34:23 2020 No.11282419 >>11282405 So why do we see outbreeding depression?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 17:34:42 2020 No.11282420 >>11281087 and if a white manlet like me sneaks between the legs of a black queen and fertilizes by chance one of her an balck super eggs? does that count too?

Anonymous Mon Jan 6 17:36:18 2020 No.11282428

>>11282405
>I'd expect that inbreeding happens more often when the people are less educated and less mobile.
>these two factors are strongly correlated with poverty which is strongly correlated with the number of children.
Yeah because millions of years of evolution took cars and airplanes into consideration, right?

Also
>Jews inbred for like 2000 years
>Jews score at least 1 SD above the global average on IQ tests
Must be coincidence, huh.

Anonymous Mon Jan 6 17:47:59 2020 No.11282472

>>11282419
you tell me, I am not going to do your brain-work.

>>11282428
> Yeah because millions of years of evolution took cars and airplanes into consideration, right?
I dont see how a Car or an Airplaine helps lesser educated or poorer people finding a partner abroad or even in an other town.
By chance that may happen, ja, but not as a general driving mechanism.

> Jews inbred for like 2000 years
Prove?
> Jews score at least 1 SD above the global average on IQ tests
I would conclude, if a reliable source had been given, you better be more strict and make your own kids study as hard as "the Jews" do it with their kids.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 17:50:05 2020 No.11282477 >>11282419 >So why do we see outbreeding depression? We don’t, not in humans.

Anonymous Mon Jan 6 17:59:29 2020 No.11282508

>>11282428
>Jews score at least 1 SD above the global average on IQ tests
That's not really hard, the global average is in the eighties.
Some of the jewish IQ work is disputed and isolated to the Ashkenazis, White quakers for example score higher on SATs

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 18:00:42 2020 No.11282515 >>11282477 >We don’t, not in humans. We do though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 18:04:53 2020 No.11282530 >>11282515 no, YOU see it. Sane people don't.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 18:10:06 2020 No.11282550 >>11282530 I am sane, you're blind.

Anonymous Mon Jan 6 18:16:14 2020 No.11282577

>>11282405
read>>11282266
>Owing to the relative socioeconomic homogeneity of Icelanders, and the observation of highly significant differences in the fertility of couples separated by very fine intervals of kinship, we conclude that this association is likely to have a biological basis.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 18:16:59 2020 No.11282582 >>11282508 The global average is actually 100. Because the average is always 100.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 18:21:08 2020 No.11282596 >>11282582 dude, just no.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 18:21:43 2020 No.11282599 >>11282582 Any group isolated from the global average can then be weighted as a subset for comparison

Anonymous Mon Jan 6 22:31:14 2020 No.11283439

>>11281045
now I get them
D is interesting, showing a reduced life expectancy for 2nd or closer mostly due to increased child mortality while those who make it to adulthood seem to have normal fitness.
I wonder how much the results differ for 1st vs 2nd cousin marriage?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 6 22:40:34 2020 No.11283467 >>11275196 Why did you cut your balls off with an electric welding helmut? How are you still alive to post?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 7 11:56:34 2020 No.11284792 are there more follow up analysis to the iceland study?

Anonymous Tue Jan 7 20:07:42 2020 No.11285770

>>11280410
I think I have to retract my point, if it were purely age at marriage due to closer relations then we wouldn't see he falling off effect continue to 8th cousins the way it does pairing much outside of 4th cousins is a borderline stranger at best there could be a shared environment effect due to geographical limitation but that would not seem to be as consistent as it was across all the years of the study.

Anonymous Tue Jan 7 22:28:40 2020 No.11285989

found some site by an old biologist guy talking about fertility changes within populations
not the highest production values but it's a little interesting did a vid on the iceland data
YT channel = "Most Dreaded Terrror"
http://www.nobabies.net/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQQzpucoWHY

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 7 22:43:54 2020 No.11286012 >>11265932 thiws should be upset by social media right?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 7 22:47:00 2020 No.11286015 >>11266812 exactly, a society with less inbeeding has a higher population.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 7 22:50:27 2020 No.11286018 >>11286015 that wouldn't explain why there is still a fertility effect beyond 5th cousins who are basically strangers. the icelandic study said the results were consistent accross the nearly 200 years of the study

Anonymous Wed Jan 8 00:12:55 2020 No.11286132

>>11272902
>Yes homogenus is the best gene pool its top tier eugenics. It is why Europeans conquered and created the world
pseudoscience cope.
The reason Europe conquered the world is A) Black death and B) discovery of the Americas.
Free welfare allows people to take big risks.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 8 00:16:49 2020 No.11286137 File: 202 KB, 1660x2384, la creatura europeo brevio.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11273279 Not really extendable to humans though, since literally every European alive today is an Indo rapebaby creatura.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 8 00:20:09 2020 No.11286142 >>11286137 Whatever you say Rajneesh.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 8 00:21:39 2020 No.11286145 >>11286132 The relatively IQ plays a role

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 8 00:23:19 2020 No.11286148 >>11286145 *high

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 8 02:41:50 2020 No.11286345 File: 227 KB, 839x1280, yamnaya-PCA-kanalysis.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11286142 science be rayyycis n antiwhyyyyte n shieet

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 8 02:54:22 2020 No.11286367 >>11286345 why do none of these fucking graphics ever list the source? should be bannable...

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 8 02:55:57 2020 No.11286369 >>11286345 so how related are these groups compared to an east asian or african?

Anonymous Wed Jan 8 15:27:11 2020 No.11287284
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>>11286369
green and orange are both Middle Eastern, both geographically and as a genetic clade. Green corresponds to Iran and Orange to Levant/Anatolia.

>>11286367
>how to find source of an image
61 IQ

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 8 15:28:32 2020 No.11287287 So if birthrate reflects underlying average relatedness what are the implications for birthrates of a more dispersed population where the chances of marrying even a distant cousin greatly reduce?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 8 15:57:18 2020 No.11287329 >>11282419 >So why do we see outbreeding depression? Culturaly enforced monogamy(wich i am all for still), widespread medicine and free access to basic needs keeps shittier genes afloat long enough to reproduse? idk

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 8 16:19:11 2020 No.11287383 >>11287329 I'm not so sure what we could consider as a metric, the peak reproductive success by grandchildren around the 3rd-4th cousin relatedness marriage mark >>11281045 implies a relative decline in reproductive fitness for the more outbred.

Anonymous Wed Jan 8 16:47:46 2020 No.11287454
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>>11265932
>the idea that societal collapse can be modelled as increasingly more fragmented family mods
exactly. People fantasize about race wars and fascist utopias, but the real redpill is that collapse will be your clan and nothing else.

That's why, when you look at ancient remains, they often have the same exact Y haplogroup. Isn't it odd that a bunch of people would have the same paternal descent?

Except it's not, because the only reason they were living together in the first place is because they were borne from the same father. Literally all of paleolithic history is random patriarchs fucking women, and their sons forming clans--it wasn't friends and allies getting together, it was literal blood relatives.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 00:11:21 2020 No.11288194 >>11265272 >>11265296 so what's the summary and conclusion of this?

Anonymous Thu Jan 9 00:21:13 2020 No.11288213 [DELETED]

Who is familiar with Haldane's rule?
Perhaps that is relevant here?
if species hybrids of one sex only are inviable or sterile, the afflicted sex is much more likely to be heterogametic (XY) than homogametic (XX).
We could take this further and ask what is the fertility rate of increasingly more distantly related mice and sperm/egg compatibility in their offspring?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 00:22:29 2020 No.11288214 Who is familiar with Haldane's rule? Perhaps that is relevant here? We could take this further and ask what is the fertility rate of increasingly more distantly related mice and sperm/egg compatibility in their offspring f1, f2 etc, etc?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 00:34:08 2020 No.11288233 is it possible we're seeing outbreeding depression as a possible cause of reducing especially male fertility?

Anonymous Thu Jan 9 00:54:24 2020 No.11288256

>>11288194
i don't really know enough to make one but I'm exploring what I find that's interesting
the summary seems to be that you should prioritise marrying someone reasonably closely related to you but not too close because it offers better genetic complement and offers stronger social bonds which give long term selection advantages.
http://www.nobabies.net/Population%20collapse.html

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 01:00:28 2020 No.11288266 >>11288256 >not too close because it offers better genetic complement and offers stronger social bonds which give long term selection advantages. how close and how distant are you talking here?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 01:05:31 2020 No.11288276 >>11288233 nah, probably the cronic porn use of people imagine what it must do to humans if you were born into the internet age with 24/7 porn always available

Anonymous Thu Jan 9 01:10:19 2020 No.11288287 [DELETED]

is inbreeding the mechanism by which a population regulates it's size?
smaller population, lesser chance of mating with someone more closely related, greater likely gene compatibility, greater fertility
larger population, greater chance of mating with someone less closely related, greater likely gene incompatibility, lesser fertility.
though it might collapse completely if the population is so low that greater offspring mortality from inbreeding depression, but you might expect this in turn to rapidly purge the deleterious recessives and allow the population to recover, ignoring complications from predators, disease and food availability or perhaps modulated by it even more?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 01:13:28 2020 No.11288293 >>11288287 >smaller population, lesser chance of mating with someone more closely related are you retarded?

Anonymous Thu Jan 9 01:14:19 2020 No.11288296

Is inbreeding the mechanism by which a population might regulate its size?

Smaller population, greater chance of mating with someone more closely related, greater likely gene compatibility, greater fertility
Larger population, greater chance of mating with someone less closely related, greater likely gene incompatibility, lesser fertility.

Though it might collapse completely if the population is so low that greater offspring mortality from inbreeding depression kicks in an wipes you out despite the gene compatibility, but you might expect this in turn to rapidly purge the deleterious recessives and allow the population to recover, ignoring complications from predators, disease and food availability or perhaps modulated by it even more?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 01:15:21 2020 No.11288298 >>11288293 Typo.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 01:48:26 2020 No.11288345 >>11288266 That iceland study graph up top says 3rd-5th cousin. Race mixing is probably more harmful than we yet appreciate, especially after the f2 generation.

Anonymous Thu Jan 9 02:56:33 2020 No.11288433

Low fertility increases descendant socioeconomic position but reduces long-term fitness in a modern post-industrial society
Anna Goodman, Ilona Koupil, and David W. Lawson Published:29 August 2012
https://doi.org/10.1098/rspb.2012.1415
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2012.1415?sid=50dde1af-b2db-4a80-b8f3-bc81945098f0

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 03:21:08 2020 No.11288460 >>11265272 this kind of thread makes me hate genetics

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 03:25:59 2020 No.11288468 >>11288460 How?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 03:39:08 2020 No.11288488 >>11288468 Its too painful to explain.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 03:50:55 2020 No.11288504 >>11288488 misunderstandings and misinterpretation leading to flawed conclusions?

Anonymous Thu Jan 9 15:58:55 2020 No.11289557
File: 1.71 MB, 3188x1198, steppe yamnaya farmer invasion.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>11288194
That having tight knit family clans was more adaptive than broad societies in our prehistoric environment.

That means that there's not really such a thing as a mythical friendly society that helps each other out. Rather, societies themselves were formed from blood relatives, and the smaller these clans are the tighter knit they are.

If you look at paleolithic remains, you'll find that the people living in an area often have the same Y haplogroup. That's not an accident; they were all descended from the same father or grandfather.

>>11288345
>Race mixing is probably more harmful
cope.

Race mixing allows advantageous alleles from isolated populations to mix and form better combinations. Of course, it also allows the opposite--for deleterious alleles to combine into something even more deleterious, but these abominations are selected out with time. The long term result is superior.

Also everyone on earth is racially mixed, particularly Europeans.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 16:16:22 2020 No.11289604 >>11289557 >/pol/ meme pic yeah I'm gonna disregard this post unless you have citations you want to add

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 20:06:11 2020 No.11290083 >>11289557 try and refute the evidence

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 22:41:46 2020 No.11290432 >>11290083 what evidence? >>11289604 pic isn't pol. It makes /pol/ seethe because it reveals that much of their paternal ancestry comes directly from darkies.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 9 23:18:51 2020 No.11290488 >>11290432 it may make /pol/ seethe but it gets a lot wrong

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 10 02:00:54 2020 No.11290756 Interesting adaptation mechanism, sperm cooperation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf1FKiQTvb8

Anonymous Fri Jan 10 05:22:59 2020 No.11290946

Hey I think I remember Elon Musk saying something about Demographics but the way he phrased it makes me think he's probably read and understood this Linton Herbert (nobabies.net) guy's work. would any of you apparent fans of the guy remember a talk he might have done on youtube where he mentioned demographic change?

Anonymous Fri Jan 10 05:46:34 2020 No.11290974

Iceland only has a population of about 360,000 and there population around 1800 was around 50-60,000 So I'm forced to wonder how any of them are more than 8th cousins?
Their relatively small population limit causing higher inter relatedness might actually explain why their population is still slowly rising unlike most other european nations if it is following these theories about cousin marriage and fertility that might be some evidence...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 10 11:56:29 2020 No.11291617 https://files.catbox.moe/ic5lvq.pdf [Sara_J._Shettleworth]_Cognition,_Evolution,_and_B(z-lib.org).pdf cch5 Bateson's quail experiment Patrick Bateson preference for cousins in Japanese Quail (1982) https://files.catbox.moe/0p1a77.pdf

Anonymous Fri Jan 10 22:45:33 2020 No.11292950

this whole cousin marriage deal is a way bigger issue than almost anyone realises
I'm reading through this stuff and finding the implications very concerning.

you can use this whole population model of collapsing fertility as consanguinity declines to optimise control of mosquitos for fuck's sake

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 10 22:46:17 2020 No.11292954 File: 205 KB, 640x400, .111.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Fri Jan 10 22:56:15 2020 No.11292968

>>11292954
Thanks calm gif poster.

More people need to be taking this seriously,
this whole marriage relatedness fertility issue might be one of the greatest threats to our current civilisation, yet it seems so minor like a complete non issue.it makes every other possible threat seem trivial...
...errant thought maybe Greta should be married off publicly to her second or third cousin and start pumping out kids?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 10 23:07:33 2020 No.11292976 >>11292950 >I'm reading through this stuff and finding the implications very concerning. what are the implications? I still don't get this thread

Anonymous Fri Jan 10 23:17:48 2020 No.11292989

>>11292976
population collapse
it's apparently partly some sort of epigenetic effect and also linked to the zyogote and sperm and egg compatibility

There is apparently a very strong reason why we're attracted to those similar but a little different from us and why it's conserved.
look at he bateson study on quail here
>>11291617

This M Linton Herbert guy is an american doctor's resources are a little crude but he's drawing together multiple examples of the same pattern from mice plagues and black footed ferrets to weavils and ancestral human populations.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 10 23:19:14 2020 No.11292991 >>11292989 so what, if there are less people around you that look like you, you will not have (as many) kids? is that why people have stopped having many kids?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 10 23:36:11 2020 No.11293016 >>11292991 It's not the appearance, the mechanism is affecting the zygote level.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 10 23:43:57 2020 No.11293022 confusing thread can someone just summarize the whole thing from start to finish? are we saying if you are genetically distant, at a cellular level you will have a lower chance to procreate?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 10 23:46:49 2020 No.11293023 File: 343 KB, 400x250, .3.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11293022 fuck that shit man this thread sucks dick

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 10 23:52:03 2020 No.11293030 >>11293022 I don't know how to lower the potential below the baseline for posting on 4chan but apparently there's some sort of effect due to outbreeding depression.

Anonymous Sat Jan 11 00:02:19 2020 No.11293045

>>11293023
Actually there is some possible relationship with homosexuality if I read his conclusions correctly.
honestly I started the thread because I found the Fox guy's research by accident and was a little confused but interested so I was using at as repo to dump what I found and hope that some other anons with greater familiarity with the subject might weigh in with an explanation.
the bark weevil results were what finally convinced me something more is going on here

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 11 00:47:50 2020 No.11293108 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpRRR8j2Ogg infertility accumulates

Anonymous Sat Jan 11 04:26:19 2020 No.11293393

could you calculate an estimate for the replacement rate of a population if you had some metric based on the level of mixing and average relatedness of a couple?

Oh and I found some research that links Folic acid supplementation to harmful effects like autism and exacerbating low B12 levels in pregnant mothers this is despite folic acid supplementation being encouraged for them...

https://twitter.com/SallyB12Movie/st
atus/1190307055258742787

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 11 13:35:50 2020 No.11294369 Is there any reason the Iceland study could not be applied to even larger populations like the Dutch or British? Has it been done?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 11 21:01:16 2020 No.11295390 I wish I could find more on the iceland paper, like methodology or the actual numbers.

Anonymous Sun Jan 12 04:19:02 2020 No.11295901

OK so this is interesting, he's looking at the the old testament and picked up on how the judeans were employed as administrators by the were employed for administrative work but asks the question of why the babylonians didn't employ their own sons in these prestigious roles and extrapolating it as a clue to how the fertility rate of the civilisation might have been low.
which does make one wonder.
I wonder what a historical study might say? is /his/ a meme board or might they have results for this sort of question? are there babylonian birth records among the tablets?
sometime after 27:00
https://youtu.be/r3uJVxyceJA?t=1621

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 12 04:20:18 2020 No.11295902 >>11295901 *by the babylonians

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 12 04:52:54 2020 No.11295936 >>11295901 /his/ says no and he's inferring too much from such a small thing since the babylonians employed many captured peoples as administrators

Anonymous Sun Jan 12 19:13:55 2020 No.11297447

>>11295936
What the hell is wrong with /his/? it's full of relgious war?
Actually how much does religion effect mating patterns if you only breed within your religious/linguistic group? surely religion itself through the cultural values it espouses would have some effect on selection and purging of traits?

Hmm let's consider a group intermixing event, if genetic similarity is correlating with fertility wouldn't that have some effect on introgression of new genetic material? you would expect some sort of natural marginalisation of the introduced genes with only those offering actual benefits noticeably contributing to the population though it would depend on timeframe and generations.

Anonymous Sun Jan 12 20:58:38 2020 No.11297697

>Journal of the association for psychological science
>Race Bias Tracks Conception Risk Across the Menstrual Cycle (2013)
>Carlos David Navarrete, Daniel M.T. Fessler, Diana Santos Fleischman, and Joshua Geyer
https://files.catbox.moe/rc7vfg.pdf
Curious, I wonder how this effect pronounces itself the closer the relatedness?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 12 21:02:06 2020 No.11297704 >>11297697 *(2009)

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 12 21:28:02 2020 No.11297761 >>11297697 after reading the paper they keep trying to emphasise something to do with group bias and social coercion but I think it might be better explained at least in part by fertility.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 13 05:21:53 2020 No.11298312 What is the optimal size of a community? can we learn anything from traditional mostly self sufficient small villages? some of the best livestock breeding systems I know only include a couple hundred animals total

Anonymous Mon Jan 13 20:40:39 2020 No.11300181

I'm struggling to find web copies of the red lamp of incest or Kinship and Marriage by Robin fox

interesting article
https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/incest-taboo-is-cousin-marriage-dangerous/

https://books.openedition.org/obp/3891?lang=en#text

are there any studies of dental crowding in mixed race children?

Anonymous Mon Jan 13 20:42:47 2020 No.11300184

>>11300181
>The size and shape of teeth are strongly inherited characteristics. So too are jaw size and shape… The potential problem arising from too much outbreeding is that the inheritance of teeth and jaw sizes are not correlated. A woman with small jaws and small teeth who had a child by a man with big jaws and big teeth lays down trouble for her grandchildren, some of whom may inherit small jaws and big teeth. In a world without dentists, ill-fitting teeth were probably a serious cause of mortality. This example of mismatching, which is one of many that may arise in the complex integration of the body, simply illustrates the more general cost of outbreeding too much.
Patrick Bateson 2005

Anonymous Mon Jan 13 21:04:13 2020 No.11300241

Inbreeding, incest, and the incest taboo : the state of knowledge at the turn of the century
Author: Arthur P Wolf; William H Durham (2005)
https://b-ok.cc/book/990429/b362d5
ch5
kind of weird census studies of ancient egypt show full sibling marriage was a thing and actually common among the urban class but rarer among the rural...

Anonymous Mon Jan 13 22:08:47 2020 No.11300396

>>11300181
related
https://books.openedition.org/obp/3891
Behaviour, Development and Evolution, (2017), Patrick Bateson ch7. Avoiding Inbreeding and Incest

found the referenced delphinium paper
>In experiments with the mountain delphinium the largest number of seedlings was produced by crosses between plants that were ten metres apart. Plants that were self pollinated and those that were crossed with plants 1000 metres away, both gave rise to significantly smaller numbers of seedlings.
Price, M.V. & Waser, N.M. (1979), Pollen dispersal and optimal outcrossing in Delphinium nelsonii. Nature, 277.5694, 294–297
https://www.nature..
com/articles/277294a0
https://sci-hub..
tw/10.1038/277294a0

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 14 09:29:12 2020 No.11301271 hmmm

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 14 09:55:25 2020 No.11301301 >>11301271 I like incest

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 14 18:08:42 2020 No.11302204 yes

Anonymous Tue Jan 14 19:04:49 2020 No.11302308

The incest isn't that important does 3rd cousin marriage even count? It's consanguinity and the border between inbreeding and outbreeding depression coupled with the kin marriage effect on the strengthening of social bonds it's the origin of powerful clans that concentrate wealth and power.

Anonymous Tue Jan 14 19:18:11 2020 No.11302331

I was doing some simple maths to estimate total descendants and relatives.
n = average number of offspring
g = generation gaps, shared parent = 1, grandparent = 2, etc, etc
[math](n^g - n^(g-1)) * 2^(g-1)[/math]
Alternatively figure out the number of first cousins then multiply that incrementally by 2*n.
hence if you have 5 kids per gen you'd potentially have 4.000,000 6th cousins.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 15 00:27:39 2020 No.11302938 >>11300396 Are there similar papers exploring outbreeding and fertility in other species or a more refined exploration of optimal delphinium relatedness?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 15 08:03:10 2020 No.11303699 How does kin marriage affect social structures? does it concentrate wealth or create it?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 15 11:26:52 2020 No.11304017 https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=UvEi88UAAAAJ&hl=en

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 15 13:06:13 2020 No.11304240 >>11271200 This is completely false btw. Scandinavians, including Icelanders, are some of the least inbred people on the planet. And I'm pretty sure no such app exists either.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 15 23:13:51 2020 No.11305493 >>11304240 I remember there being an iceland dating app thing that used genealogy data

Anonymous Wed Jan 15 23:37:19 2020 No.11305532

at the social level parallel cousin marriage like father's brothers daughter or mother's sister's daughter are considered more socially linking than cross cousin marriage mother's brother's daughter
Although at the genetic level there wouldn't be much difference, FBD is the more likely cousin marriage scheme to be banned.

Anonymous Thu Jan 16 01:54:55 2020 No.11305641

This is such a tedious website, it's so hard to have any proper drawn out informed debate, the anonymity and ease of posting are a boon and a curse.

Why is incest porn so prominent? What drives the easiest taboo? looking at ancient mythologies with various gods fucking their family has this just marked a shift to a different fictional medium?
Is Incest porn akin to modern versions of Japanese, Egytian etc,etc gods at least in the popular imagination or are they just a manifestation of the same basic impulse?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 16 08:49:50 2020 No.11306089 >>11305532 Ugh

Anonymous Thu Jan 16 09:02:20 2020 No.11306108

Interesting paper, population self regulation is incdependent of carrying capacity.

Sibly, R. M. (2005). On the Regulation of Populations of Mammals, Birds, Fish, and Insects. Science, 309(5734), 607–610. doi:10.1126/science.1110760
https://sci-hub..
tw/10.1126/science.1110760
https://files.catbox.moe/5ojyg4.pdf

Anonymous Thu Jan 16 09:09:45 2020 No.11306120

>>11305532
cross cousins
https://umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/marriage/xcuz.html

https://umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/marriage/toc.html

Igbo
https://umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/case_studies/igbo/igbo_marriage.html
I wonder if this explains some of their greater openness or why they were so much more accepting of colonial customs like education?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 16 16:32:38 2020 No.11306852 >>11306089 what?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 16 17:07:21 2020 No.11306909 >>11306108 I wonder how this would relate to island populations and island dwarfism? perhaps the population is normalising its body size to fit within this population plateau?

Anonymous Fri Jan 17 03:01:20 2020 No.11307954

>>11306108
if this is in some way controlled by relatedness, would a more diverse founding population have a lower optimal limit compared to a population founded from a full sib pair such as lab mice which would inherently be more similar to each other?
I wonder if someone has tested it? surely it's a relatively cheap experiment to perform if all you need to do is feed and separate mice and count them occasionally ?

Anonymous Fri Jan 17 05:18:09 2020 No.11308126

>>11306120
Hang on, this is kind of unusual.
>Alternatively, a woman, especially if she is very wealthy, will set up her own compound and take wives to establish and advance her own status. In this case the wives involved will have affairs, sometimes with men of the "husband's choosing, and add any children as dependents of her household. They will accordingly form a minor lineage of which she is the founder. Although this group has a female ancestor, subsequent descent will be traced through her sons and subsequent male offspring to form a patrilineal group.

Anonymous Fri Jan 17 21:28:28 2020 No.11309819

>>11306909
it might explain island gigantism better
though is there much correlation between habitat food supply and total size? there used to be some unintended experiments on a bunch of remote islands with abandoned livestock where they monitored numbers and bodysize

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 18 00:34:19 2020 No.11310213 if there isn't some level of consanguinity within a population is evolution actually possible? is it possible to only breed 8th+ cousins every time?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 18 00:41:23 2020 No.11310224 >>11310213 I'll rephrase that, how big would a population have to be to only breed outside of a certain relatedness?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 18 11:52:44 2020 No.11311324 >>11306108 do these limits really apply to humans in he same way? What might be evidence for it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 18 22:40:37 2020 No.11312748 Are polygamous species differently affected than monogamous, since there's less chance of two single individuals meeting relatives?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 01:33:13 2020 No.11313133 http://soaysheep.biology.ed.ac.uk/

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 01:34:50 2020 No.11313136 http://soaysheep.biology.ed.ac.uk/history

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 05:49:15 2020 No.11313398 >>11313136 It is an odd path my reading takes me. https://animalstudiesrepository.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1374&context=animsent

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 16:16:33 2020 No.11315151 Bump. This is important stuff.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 16:18:34 2020 No.11315160 >>11290488 >it may make /pol/ seethe but it gets a lot wrong Not him but I am curious, what is wrong? History interests me, but recent rewrites about early Europeans are getting confusing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 16:29:32 2020 No.11315198 Unsurprisingly, at family gatherings I can't stop checking out my second cousins

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 16:41:14 2020 No.11315231 >>11315151 Yes it is. >>11315198 Same

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 16:53:25 2020 No.11315262 File: 169 KB, 1175x1280, IMG_20200113_135525_790.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11286137

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 16:55:00 2020 No.11315266 File: 177 KB, 1280x1213, 874733652621182.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11286137 >>11315262

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 17:13:55 2020 No.11315314 >>11315266 >>11315262 You missed the indian master race and the south chinese

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 21:04:47 2020 No.11316067 Is the /pol/ racism really necessary?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 19 23:16:38 2020 No.11316330 >>11316067 Yes, but only if it's scientific racism.

Anonymous Mon Jan 20 05:14:51 2020 No.11317032

How does this present itself in r/k theory?

Actually how much of an argument is there for mating courtship rituals?
Surely there must be a study of species like Great Crested Grebes? If your genetically predetermined courtship strategy has to be compatible or it won't be recognised then there's obviously some form of selection for similarity going on?

Anonymous Mon Jan 20 08:11:30 2020 No.11317238

How does one select for improved performance?
reading this >>11313136 on one of the research pages it talks about a surprise result that the gene for large/scur(stub) horns has two alleles Ho+/Ho- and was also influential in survivability, the large horns allele Ho+ made the rams reproductively more competitive while the stub horn allele Ho- was associated with higher survivability, and those that were heterozygous.received both benefits so both were selected for as those Ho+/Ho- rams were better able to compete and survived for longer to pass on their genes,
http://soaysheep.biology.ed.ac.uk/evolution-and-genetics#Understanding%20Microevolution

Though the entire island breeding population is around 2,000 animals which puts a limit on their outbreeding potential.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 20 09:45:24 2020 No.11317359 >>11282472 Not 2,000 years, but they are very inbred. https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 20 19:57:30 2020 No.11318784 you'd think there would be plenty of in depth resources on in and out breeding depression given its significance for livestock and lab breeding, maybe I'm just not looking in the right places?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 21 06:29:46 2020 No.11319700 >>11318784 Probably

Anonymous Tue Jan 21 06:45:36 2020 No.11319728

>>11316067
Inbreeding/outbreeding as it applies to humans is not controversial science at this point. Even Robert Sapolsky, who is probably as liberal leftist as a person can get, talks about how optimal fitness in humans seem to happen closer to inbreeding on the in/outbreeding scale than previously thought, breeding within a community of about 200 people (which just happens to be the size of later hunter-gatherer and early agarian societies and also one where least-relatived people are approximately fourth cousins) appearing to be the most optimal.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 21 06:52:44 2020 No.11319738 >>11319728 yeah the more I look at this the more it seems communities naturally form around certain size ranges partly due to relatedness those who go outside this range are less fit and don't persist.

Anonymous Tue Jan 21 07:55:00 2020 No.11319814

I feel like I'm hitting the ability cliff on this one, it feels important but I don't have the knowledge to truly understand the pattern and my attention wavers.

Linton proposed that the fertility effect is to do with protein compatability and referenced a study on sperm from related males being more inclined to cooperate, but I don't know where o look or how that ties into ultimate fertility especially at a population level, though I can see the implications for Haldanes rule and why male sterility and underperformance is an issue as antagonistic heterozygosity increases

is there any relation between the protein shell around a sperm cell and the specific haploid set of chromosomes it carries? is it some some specific relatively small group of gene regions or is it the entire set?
I don't have the background in biology that might give me enough insight, I'm only an agric, we touched on genetics and ecology but mostly from a management perspective, though some of the most important breeders in history that have left their mark eployed high levels of line breeding to achieve fixation of desired phenotypes, usually with a comparatively small nucleus of animals. the big cattle semen companies must have this data especially the way they've become more data focused over recent years, tracking down mastitis related genes and fertility effects, I find it unlikely they would miss something like this if they were looking...but the source breeding pool for a lot of their work is relatively small...and their selection criteria leave a lot to be desired.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 21 10:55:03 2020 No.11320151 What is Hamilton's inclusive fitness theory any why is there so much division over whether it is real or not?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 21 11:06:41 2020 No.11320176 >>11265272 How is high fertility optimal? Who the hell would take care of the kids? How can you work while you have kids and be truly focused at work? Isn't your job completely automatable then?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 21 11:13:07 2020 No.11320188 >>11320176 The number of kids isn't the issue here, it's an indicator of genetic compatibility. the fact that the pattern persists at a weaker level even out to 5th and 6th cousins suggests something important is at work.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 21 18:20:38 2020 No.11320951 >>11288504 you liked what he didn't like

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 22 01:12:22 2020 No.11321713 average relatedness of a couple was controlled by geography and density to some level now it isn't, so the only way is through culture and preferential maing and imprinting similar traits.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 22 12:11:21 2020 No.11322791 >>11282266 surely there must have been other similar studies of this? japan would surely be a candidate given their record keeping.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 22 12:22:50 2020 No.11322806 >>11265272 Reminder that einstein married his cousin. roosevelt as well.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 22 12:39:09 2020 No.11322832 found an unusual anecdote that The Darwin family had members of the royal society for over 200 years, longer than any other.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 22 17:56:44 2020 No.11323516 Selection: the mechanism of evolution by Graham Bell https://files.catbox.moe/ydrvsb.pdf

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 22 18:58:55 2020 No.11323621 >>11265272 how can the mean number of children be negative?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 22 22:29:29 2020 No.11324109 >>11323621 It's relative to the average. read the paper if you want here >>11282266

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 23 04:47:42 2020 No.11324731 >>11320151 I still can't figure out what Inclusive Fitness means

Anonymous Thu Jan 23 11:13:56 2020 No.11325225

Line 1 Herefords, Fort Keogh, Miles City, Montana.
Research contributions from seventy-five years of breeding Line 1 Hereford cattle at Miles City, Montana (2009)
A must read long term experiment on a closed herd of 250 cows running for 85 years
https://pubag.nal.usda.gov/download/33988/PDF

Anonymous Thu Jan 23 16:23:00 2020 No.11325860

A population will naturally build up deleterious mutations.
Which is the most effective way to purge these bad mutations while maintaining healthy diversity?
As I can see it there are two options, you maintain the population overall at a moderate level of inbreeding whereby these mutations regularly reveal themselves and can be purged,
or
A generally outbreeding population ocassionally is isolated into smallish groups that undergo intense inbreeding for 2 or 3 generations and then recombine them later to overcome losses from drift.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 24 02:16:40 2020 No.11326912 So the only reason for inbreeding is if you want lots of kids? Why would anyone want that in modern times?

Anonymous Fri Jan 24 05:16:02 2020 No.11327076

>>11326912
It's not quite that simple, it partly explains the crashing birthrates of developed countries. this demographic collapse is likely to have dire consequences, look at Japan's recent policy change of focus hoping to undo the damage potential if its people don't breed.
the social and economic consequences of varying levels of consanguineous marriage are not trivial.
Thirdly we have arguments about optimal expression of complex gene interactions.
Look at how well teeth into a jaw.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 24 13:40:23 2020 No.11327915 >>11281045 Just why are the 90% variances so tight? if it weren't for that I#d assume there were more of an environmental effect but the spread is so narrow compared to the difference.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 24 16:40:46 2020 No.11328309 >>11325860 4th cousins isn't really inbreeding though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 24 18:14:23 2020 No.11328533 Yeah I don't know what would be sensible from that perspective, I'm just speculating based on historical patterns and animal models. the conclusioin I keep coming to is that our current system is hostile to long term stability.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 24 19:57:51 2020 No.11328807 since we're concered with traditional lifestles perhaps this has some relevance. Title: Nutrition and Physical Degeneration Author: Weston A. Price http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 24 20:01:25 2020 No.11328817 >>11328807 Actual the whole dental nature chimes in with that earlier link talking about dental morphology. >>11300184 gene/environment effects are pretty important.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 24 20:32:26 2020 No.11328884 >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NhH9B6nVY 50%+ of these must be mine >>11328817 what proportion of dental defects like crowding are a product of genes vs diet? how would you even measure it? is there a viable animal model?

Anonymous Sat Jan 25 05:51:59 2020 No.11330176

I want to clarify that I don't think going down the Pakistan route of 60+% marrying their first cousins repeatedly is a sane venture as can be seen by these groups' levels of congenital illness, violence, and IQ depression.
But that historical social structures of distant kin marriage seem somewhat optimal for balancing inbreeding against outbreeding depression and the move away from these structures might have greater influence on current social and birthrate trends than initially seems apparent.

This topic seems to me at least somewhat important, so I will probably attempt to compile a pastebin that can be easily shared containing what relevant sources I have come across, I make no promises as I acknowledge my own analytic skills are somewhat primitive.
If any legitimate competent social science researchers wish to contribute or weigh in on this and pursue it further then please do.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 25 07:09:41 2020 No.11330268 Also I had not previously appreciated the power of genetic drift and small groups.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 25 16:32:06 2020 No.11331409 searched the OP image and it's wound up in some odd places

Anonymous Sat Jan 25 17:32:58 2020 No.11331538

I think the key message is that small local fairly independent and self sufficient communities with strong kinship bonds are the most sustainable.
So something much more like small independent villages or the complete opposite of the retarded financial elites and their megacity plans.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 26 04:09:23 2020 No.11332698 interesting discussion on the black footed ferret, a little dated though. https://www.ti.org/bffhess.html#RTFToC7

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 26 14:30:29 2020 No.11333918 >>11332698 It's remarkable how many ways government policy can fuck up the environment.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 26 18:57:07 2020 No.11334637 found this, don't know much about it but it might be relevant. The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature by Geoffrey Miller https://b-ok.cc/book/509813/c6c730?dsource=recommend is it meme or legit?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 26 19:01:12 2020 No.11334648 File: 153 KB, 700x317, left is men reproducing, right is women reproducing.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11287454

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 26 19:03:17 2020 No.11334654 >>11271678 basically yeah

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 26 19:04:18 2020 No.11334660 >>11271200 >scandinavia >inbred this post reeks of americans

Anonymous Mon Jan 27 04:36:16 2020 No.11335856

>>11300181
I can't seem to find this study
>Some of the studies of humans suggest that fecundity is related to the similarity between spouses. For example, in one study the more alike human couples were on 17 out of 19 measures of the body (such as forearm length, height and ear length), the more children they had. Although most correlations were positive, each correlation coefficient was low and could, of course, be explained by shared associations between the measures and a third variable such as social class
It's not as good as a descent analysis but it implies something about complimentary genetics.
surely there must be other pedigree studies on fertility?
if you had the old church records of births, deaths, marriages data for many regional parishes you could put together some fairly good approximations. at least enough to tie with the Iceland study.

Anonymous Mon Jan 27 07:05:21 2020 No.11336005

What are the political implications of kin marriage? or does a certain culture likely more tight knit, conservative and traditional favour a scenario where kin marriage is more common?
if your political ideology is telling you that everyone is equal and you should be open does that produce a culture where birth rates are on the floor?
is this the root of the conflict and problem?
every piece of evidence is telling us that we do better living as small interspersed village communities of broadly related people even within cities.
some of the oldest continuously inhabited cities had specific quarters and trade groups.

Anonymous Mon Jan 27 09:12:23 2020 No.11336181

>>11336005
No I think I need to recant some of that plenty of tribal groups had/have stable partial outbreeding systems with political relations often controlling the number of acceptable suitors usually with arranged marriages accounting for a minimum distance of third cousin and not to share a family name or be related through direct maternal or paternally shared lines but these seem linked to wider communities and forming strong political bonds and improving redundencey in the case of famine or war.
many communities that allow first cousin marriage but only cross-cousin marriages forbidding between mother's sister's child and father's brother's child

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 09:24:35 2020 No.11336210 muslims marry their cousins and they have retarded offspring often

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 09:28:51 2020 No.11336220 >>11336210 They should abort the retarded offspring. Btw their bad recessive genes are getting purged by producing retarded dead ends. Only functional genes move on. Westerns keep all the genes in the same pool.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 09:37:40 2020 No.11336240 File: 353 KB, 672x1017, 1578068559398.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11274339 Optimized.

Anonymous Mon Jan 27 09:57:21 2020 No.11336281 [DELETED]

>>11336220
There are issues with the muslim system. Honestly in some ways a modest outbreeding policy is much better than repeated first cousin marriage, you'd get slower purging but the negative social effects would not be anywhere near as severe on actual progress. and it's much better at maintaining genetic redundancy against disease or climatic upheaval.

Western euros really need to cleanse their gene pool before it gets toxic it's a shame they can't implement any sensible policies because of certain groups encouraging massive destabilisation for their political motivation.

Anonymous Mon Jan 27 10:04:18 2020 No.11336291

>>11336210
Repeated cousin marriage is problematic, too little within group diversity and you really put yourself at disease vulnerability.

modest outbreeding seems to be a better option as you don't get overwhelmed by the deleterious effects like islamic societies suffer from, like reduced IQ and excessive clannish violence
western euros would be better able to sort out their population problems without the idiots saying that mass immigration of violent retards is the answer to the elite's cheap labour problems.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 10:25:15 2020 No.11336332 >>11271200 Scandinavia is not inbred these days but it was not too far back.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 10:29:55 2020 No.11336349 >>11336332 most places wee pretty inbred not too long ago by current outbreeding rate

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 11:11:50 2020 No.11336441 >>11336349 And yet population IQ has never been lower. Victorian london was much smarter and it's been downhill since then. Probably because of outbreeding

Anonymous Mon Jan 27 11:21:19 2020 No.11336459

>>11336441
it may have some contribution but the bigger factor has been dysgenic birth rates.
historically the upper 50% by wealth had 40% more children surviving until adulthood meaning that gradually the population reflects the more successful upper middle class group and slowly purges out the bad genes by pushing them to the very bottom, part of this is a consequence of social policies
another factor that accelerated it it smart women that would otherwise have been phenomenal productive mothers redirected these energies into careers and education instead of into finding a good partner and raising their kids well as had been the absolute necessity through the rest of history.
instead we now have situations where the only group reproducing at above replacement are those where both parents are on welfare.
it's literally breeding parasite class on the system.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 16:31:17 2020 No.11337235 how does the genome deal with weakly negative genes that are located close to strongly positive genes? surely they're difficult to remove?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 16:36:30 2020 No.11337242 >>11265272 It's curious that we all learn about the dangers of inbreeding and the benefits of hybrid vigor, but never about the opposite danger of outbreeding depression. In fact, (((Firefox))) spell check flags outbreeding as not being a word at all.

Anonymous Mon Jan 27 17:54:30 2020 No.11337417

>>11337242
Mozilla is often a little shady.
But I don't think that's likely intentional. outbreeding is just much less notable. inbreeding creates much more obvious consequences while outbreeding is more subtle, insidious and mostly deals with compatibility. don't forget that ancient eurasians successfully admixtured with Neanderthals and other distant hominid relatives.
It was probably a close run thing with serious purging of non compatible gene regions but it was eventually successful, likely because of small bands of kin breeding among themselves, purging deleterious combinations for so many generations then progressing onwards and intermixing with other similar tribes using the advantageous admixtured genes to move into and survive in increasingly more diverse and hostile lands.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 18:11:30 2020 No.11337448 >>11337235 You gotta inbreed till the gene is moved away from the good ones and expressed which results in death and thus the death of the gene.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 18:17:22 2020 No.11337461 >>11265272 how is this thread still alive?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 18:48:30 2020 No.11337581 >>11337461 Autism, maybe some perversion.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 27 19:51:01 2020 No.11337759 >>11337448 Why would inbreeding affect it? surely you need sufficient heterogeneity to actually provide an alternative to these weakly negative genes.

Anonymous Mon Jan 27 20:01:47 2020 No.11337793

>>11269363
Kind of. Sometimes it's best for an organism to have two different variants of the same gene. In inbred society, you must choose one or the other. It can also be good for a population to have some "specialized" genes at a low rate. This is also impossible in inbred society.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 28 04:45:26 2020 No.11338561 >>11337793 I was reading how in some population experiments they find that with certain genes even if you start with wildly differing allele ratios across multiple populations like 1% vs 99%, you eventually end up with similar ratios.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 28 07:33:08 2020 No.11338761 >>11266875 if your family has gene sets that cause higher fertility inbreeding preserves them

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 28 09:53:05 2020 No.11339055 >>11336441 No historically it was horrid back then.

Anonymous Tue Jan 28 09:55:50 2020 No.11339064

Pakistan meme needs to stop. All those sites something about it used a certain set of Pakistani immigrants from a certain part of rural mountainous Pakistan. Its literally extremely exceptional cases.

Fucks sake you can make the same case for many other groups.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 28 12:52:18 2020 No.11339460 >>11339064 Is there data available on more recent consanguineous marriage rates?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 28 12:53:40 2020 No.11339463 >>11338761 That would not explain why the 90% variance is so tight.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 28 19:45:08 2020 No.11340610 >>11305493 It never really existed. Just clickbait articles talking about it. >>11336332 >Scandinavia is not inbred these days but it was not too far back. What? Source?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 28 21:26:11 2020 No.11340948 >>11340610 depends where you are in scandinavia. cities are probably low more traditional rural areas will be higher.

Anonymous Tue Jan 28 21:31:33 2020 No.11340964

how many ways are there to split off a potential kinship linked breeding group?
Obviously geography, religion, language, and caste/class.
What about trade groups and professions?
do historical societies above a certain size routinely fragment because of this kinship fertility effect or is that a consequence??

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 29 07:51:55 2020 No.11342119 >>11340964 Trade and professions are recent. People were multi skilled to a larger degree and specialised to a lesser degree in the past.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 29 09:38:37 2020 No.11342392 >>11342119 Indian castes say there should be 4 castes

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 29 15:17:21 2020 No.11343302 >>11342392 But I thought you have 5 castes if you count the untouchables?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 29 17:38:15 2020 No.11343686 I really need to actually read full papers instead of the first half then following up a reference and forgetting to read the full paper, I just realiseed that what I wasted a couple of days looking up, was summarised on the next few pages

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 29 20:18:19 2020 No.11344080 Wynne-Edwards, V. C. 1962. Animal Dispersion in Relation to Social Behavior https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1921359/pdf/canmedaj01001-0040.pdf

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 29 20:21:34 2020 No.11344093 Fisher, H. S., and H. E. Hoekstra. 2010. “Competition Drives Cooperation among Closely-Related Sperm of Deer Mice.” https://hoekstra.oeb.harvard.edu/files/hoekstra/files/fisherhoekstra2010nat.pdf weird but not really

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 30 06:56:23 2020 No.11345069 >>11344093 Nice

Anonymous Thu Jan 30 15:11:47 2020 No.11346188

If as according to Fox some close marriage patterns basically lead to the creation of Mafia?
Does that exlain the clannish crimionality of certain ethnic groups?
Just how broad and far reaching an effect does marriage policy actually have?
in the face of such clannishness is the only solution to bcome as close knit and clannish or be oveerwhelmed?

Anonymous Thu Jan 30 15:14:40 2020 No.11346192

>>11343686
You should read a book on mathematical/quant genetics, try Felsenstein’s Evolutionary Genetics if you aren’t too mathematically mature, Ewen’s Mathematical Genetics vol I if you have a good background in stats, probability, diff eq and analysis

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 30 15:27:00 2020 No.11346228 >>11346192 >Felsenstein’s Evolutionary Genetics This one? http://evolution.gs.washington.edu/pgbook/pgbook.pdf https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9780387201917

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 30 17:02:14 2020 No.11346470 >>11346228 https://anonfile.com/L5o0Z6Rcn9/_Warren-J.-Ewens-_auth._-Mathematical-Population_genetics_pdf

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 30 23:03:47 2020 No.11347261 I want to impregnate my cousin but she's like 6 years older than me (kind of a hag) and also has anger control issues and is depressed. Should I just try? It's not like I have any other prospects in life anyway

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 31 00:32:36 2020 No.11347414 >>11347261 Who's gonna look after the kid? Jerk off and then consider if that sounds like a good idea or not

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 31 04:24:51 2020 No.11347777 >>11347261 It sounds like making bad decisions runs in your family, you might not want reinforce these genetics.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 31 05:23:23 2020 No.11347841 >>11347261 >cousin Go for it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 31 15:05:48 2020 No.11349167 How does it affect the immune system? don't you need MHC group diversity to fight off infections? or can you be too diverse there?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 31 17:49:57 2020 No.11349669 https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/24/4/842/220309 odd but interesting paper, females and males are affected differently.

Anonymous Fri Jan 31 17:51:25 2020 No.11349672

odd but interesting paper, females and males are affected differently when it comes to facial similarity preference.
>An experimental test of the Westermarck effect: sex differences in inbreeding avoidance
Urszula M. Marcinkowska, Fhionna R. Moore, Markus J. Rantala
>https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/24/4/842/220309

Anonymous Fri Jan 31 18:06:39 2020 No.11349711

>>11298312
I recall a study that linked the Maxum amount of faces a person can remember at one time to the optimal size of the society they live in. The idea being that this implies a level of trust and familiarity which precludes "cheating" behavior of the individual. Essentially it asserts that people subconsciously regulate their behavior towards others based on familiarity.
>100 person village
>you know all their faces, they all know yours
>you think about stealing some food or goods from someone one but subconsciously realize that the consequences are severe for being caught and it will hurt your standing in this community and with that person
>never seriously considers stealing
Meanwhile, in today's enormous societies
>think about stealing this person's SSN to do tax fraud
>I will likely never meet this person again in my life so the risks and consequences of being caught are low
>steals their SSN

Anonymous Fri Jan 31 20:02:41 2020 No.11349994

>>11349711
Maybe religion plays a part in this?
Being raised to see figures like Jesus or Mary in favourable light creating some sort of reinforcement effect since you feel warmly towards those and by extension you see others others raised similarly in a favourable light, it's all group cohesion dynamics but the mechanism is probably basically familial.
The less connection you feel to then the more hostile you are.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 31 21:14:02 2020 No.11350129 >>11330268 Sequences From First Settlers Reveal Rapid Evolution in Icelandic mtDNA Pool https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2613751/

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 1 11:51:36 2020 No.11351721 >>11350129 What would be the minimal breeding population size to avoid severe drift effects?

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 1 19:20:28 2020 No.11352995 I still can't seem to find any similar study on relatedness and birthrate or follow deeper analysis of the iceland data

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 2 08:06:33 2020 No.11354116 >>11306120 The patterns of marriage structures are fascinating things, plenty of exchange marriages and patrilineal/matrilineal parallel/cross cousin marriages and the effect of relative group size and political power.

Anonymous Sun Feb 2 17:13:47 2020 No.11355307

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/BF2A35F0D4F565757875287E59A1F534/S1832427417000378a.pdf/div-class-title-holocene-selection-for-variants-associated-with-general-cognitive-ability-comparing-ancient-and-modern-genomes-div.pdf

looking through this
The Son Also Rises: Surnames and the History of Social Mobility
Gregory Clark
https://b-ok.cc/book/550505/be4a63?dsource=recommend
it's making me a little curious how the relatedness dynamics plays out, since the thesis here is that surnames move down hierarchies through time to what level does kin marriage affect this dynamic?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 3 05:40:24 2020 No.11356730 >>11355307 makes me curious about the inter group competition and progress

>>	JzARK !!9fnWp2T2w16 Mon Feb 3 07:04:08 2020 No.11356808 >>11266875 ok genetic s wise at 3rd 4th cousin your likely to get multple hits of good genes and miss the bad ones by semiconservative gentics. all the good little of the bad

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 3 09:34:23 2020 No.11356982 >>11347261 do it for science

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 3 11:54:38 2020 No.11357224 >>11273010 >insular country like Japan? To put it simply, it's not an insular country. Has continuous mainland input and various natives intermixed.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 3 15:16:05 2020 No.11357641 >>11357224 What I mean is whatever records they had from their isolationist and subsequent period

Anonymous Mon Feb 3 17:59:27 2020 No.11357999

>>11357641
so 220 years of the Sakoku from the 1600s to 1853, and I doubt much changed in the time afterwards at least not enough though I'm sceptical whether they'd have the data for or care about peasants.
There must be other populatrions with detailed marriage and birth records over centuries?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 4 07:43:54 2020 No.11359073 There must be aradopsis or other plant species studies that investigate degree of relatedness and seed number, weight, abnormalities etc at different outbreeding levels.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 4 09:29:10 2020 No.11359209 >>11265272 jews married within the family for millennia and now theyre the master race

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 4 17:48:28 2020 No.11360128 An anon in an /a/ thread was talking about a group in brazil that been marrying their cousins for 4 generations and have some genetic disease that makes them photo-sensitive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeroderma_pigmentosum >>>/a/198702012

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 4 17:49:31 2020 No.11360130 An anon in an /a/ thread was talking about a group in brazil that been marrying their cousins for 4 generations and have some genetic disease that makes them photo-sensitive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeroderma_pigmentosum >>>/a/198763518

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 5 06:18:25 2020 No.11361318 Is there a way to reconcile this with huge constantly moving cities where your last common ancestor was millenia ago? or will it all just collapse?

Anonymous Wed Feb 5 11:15:38 2020 No.11361785

>>11360130
Not contradictory with OP's point. This is a common consequence of inbreeding depression.

According to OP the optimal genetic distance to produce optimal offspring (in term of environmental fitness) is found between 4th degree cousins.
If you go farther than that then outbreeding depression begins and closer than that inbreeding depression.

Anonymous Wed Feb 5 11:25:53 2020 No.11361812

>Should we be marrying within 4th cousins?
You're increasing the risk of birth defects, for what reason?
Who gives a shit really? If your 4th cousin has very desirable qualities you might aswell but in modern times people just want an attractive mate, in which case you might aswell just not risk it.

Anonymous Wed Feb 5 18:38:35 2020 No.11362690

>>11361812
You don't seem to have understood the thread,

This seems to be a pattern consistent even in such distant organisms as insects, fish and plants, it's about the gap between inbreeding and outbreeding depression, what might be called an optimal relatedness and it's consequences seem to have far reaching effects.
the level of outbreeding humanity is currently experiencing on mass has never been experienced before and this field raises some conclusions as to possible consequences such as increased vulnerability to disease challenge in outbred f2 generations or infertility consequences as suggested by Haldane's rule.

The dangers from deleterious inbreeding depression are somewhat overblown when we're dealing with < 3% relatedness but the loss of coadadapted gene complexes seems to have a very real if more subtle effect that people are likely to casually dismiss while not appreciating their implications.

Anonymous Thu Feb 6 06:37:33 2020 No.11363812

>>11302938
>>11300396
Found a few follow up studies by Price and Waser, this one looks at differences in pollen tube set in the same species and distance as the previous study and found a pattern consistent with their earlier seed set results.
Crossing Distance Effects on Prezygotic Performance in Plants: An Argument for Female Choice
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3544843
https://booksc.xyz/book/52469793/8e2e54

Anonymous Thu Feb 6 18:09:01 2020 No.11365296

OK well this seems like a worrying pattern, outbred populations of bass at the f2 level (f1xf1) had a reduced survival rate after viral inoculation likely due to incompatible coadapted gene complexes causing a weakened immune system.

Increased Infectious Disease Susceptibility Resulting from Outbreeding Depression
https://conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1523-1739.2005.00091.x
https://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/goldberglab/pdf/P029.pdf

I don't know the absolute relatedness of these two relatively close populations.
makes me wonder how many species show a similar pattern perhaps there are rodent tests?

Stabilizing selection on genomic divergence in a wildfish population, (2003), Bryan D. Neff
https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/101/8/2381.full.pdf

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 7 05:53:39 2020 No.11366377 >>11343302 >What about trade groups and professions? Don't forget the people who aren't in it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 7 06:53:26 2020 No.11366432 I was sure I'd posted a link to this book before but I can't find any trace of it The Weaker Vessel: Woman's Lot in Seventeenth-Century England Fraser Antonia https://b-ok.cc/book/4681499/5b8684

Anonymous Fri Feb 7 11:59:42 2020 No.11366827

I think I've previously misunderstood something likely quite important to this discussion, it isn't that 3rd cousins are inherently the best it's that your general relatednedness to a partner is similar to that of a 3rd cousin.
That through your various interlinked ancestors your overall relatedness is around that 0.8% of a third cousin, you could literally be tenth cousins at the closest point but share enough common ancestors on all descent paths that overall you have effectively third cousins. it was obviously spelled out by the Iceland graphs earlier but I wasn't paying attention.
This seems like a much more realistic effect size and gives a better explanation of larger breeding populations.
I wish I had the statistical knowledge to put this into words, I'll really have to take the earlier anon's book recomendations seriously.

Anonymous Fri Feb 7 18:56:28 2020 No.11367651

>>11355307
>https://b-ok.cc/book/550505/be4a63?dsource=recommend
wrong link sorry
https://b-ok.cc/book/2329536/778a87
https://files.catbox.moe/bctay1.pdf
https://anonfile.com/B6G592W1ne/_Gregory-Clark_-The-Son-Also-Rises-Surnames-and-t_z-lib.org_pdf

The genetics of inbreeding depression(2009), charlesworth
https://files.catbox.moe/wkotiw.pdf

Waser, N. M., & Price, M. V. (1985). Reciprocal Transplant Experiments with Delphinium nelsonii (Ranunculaceae): Evidence for Local Adaptation. American Journal of Botany,
doi = 10.2307/2443730

I should just make a folder of the Price Waser papers and related papers.
https://bsapubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.3732/ajb.89.3.427
I think I've found a good pattern to explore.

Anonymous Sat Feb 8 02:33:31 2020 No.11368339

>>11269363
No. See Familial Dysautonomia which is a lost exclusively in Jewish (Ashkenazi) family’s, 1/30 are a carrier dispite for all of history till very recently they would die in childhood (before having kids of their own), so about 1 in 3,600 of thier kids will get it.
Also see many other examples of exclusive or mostly Eastern Europe Jew genetic problems, often very severe. [No mods this is not racism, they are just a great genetics example because of thier closed breeding]

Anonymous Sat Feb 8 02:44:38 2020 No.11368353

>>11273010
The japanese are successful because their modern creation myth hinges on (nature) “generation,” instead of “creation”. [Became popular when Shinto nature resurgent during the Meiji era, this is what I mean by modern]
Christianity, unintuitively, also hinges on generation (god keeps things moving in the here, active presence, etc).
Contrast shitty creation myths that are something like “long ago the great cyoto spit out the world..l”

Anonymous Sat Feb 8 02:56:46 2020 No.11368375
File: 42 KB, 597x480, 74E30060-3769-4EED-99FB-607C60DF76E2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>11265272
>>11269962
>>11273688
>familia ties improved by inbreeding is good (outweighs the bad)
Completely wrong and bonkers.
A major reason the Christian west did so well is the church outlawed cousin marriage, which raised the generations iq several points or more over just a few hundred years. This has been well studied.
Also keep in mind this would have much bigger effects in times when most people walked everywhere, and generally lived and died in the greater neighborhood they were born in.
Note I didn’t say “stops retardation”. So don’t bother linking studys that show the effect on that is small, I am just talking about moving the normals needle.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 8 14:01:42 2020 No.11369577 >>11271678 I really enjoyed Taleb's work. He statistically proven that high IQ doesn't predict better wealth. If a statistician can prove otherwise please do. Lower than 100 IQ definitely matters.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 8 14:17:49 2020 No.11369633 >>11273099 Psychology is not scientific consensus lmao

Anonymous Sat Feb 8 14:39:10 2020 No.11369684

>>11369633
>>11369577
this is not an IQ thread, can you wastes of space explore the actual topic of this thread and not bring your cancerous never ending IQ faggotry arguments here

>>11368375
this thread is not arguing for repeated first cousin, there are a number of references to studies of long term close consanguinous marriage (eg Bittles's studies on pakistani communiies) that look at the long term inbreeding depression such as a potential 20% loss of fitness in some traits or even death, however there does seem to be under appreciated danger in excessive outbreeding. this and the social effects of different levels of intermarriage were the main focus of the thread and an little reading up on what might be he mechanism (which seems to be mostly prezygotic compatibility reaching a peak at a certain in/out breeding level). previously the cost of travel and social constraints definitely limited the level of outbreeding.
frankly I find the data on the effect of the church's rules on social structure greatly interesting and would like to read more on the topic if you know some good sources.

>>11368339
I'm willing to argue that at that level of occurrence there must be some possible heterozygous advantage

>>11368353
>“generation,” instead of “creation”.
would you mind expanding on this concept it sounds interesting

Anonymous Sat Feb 8 17:59:09 2020 No.11370301

>>11369684
I appreciate you curating your topic, the idea of optimal inbreeding is absolutely relevant to IQ, you nonoptimally inbred piece of shit. Inbreeding magnifies certain traits like amish and some african tribes like the pygmies. They certainly won't collapse but their lifestyle isn't enviable. Amish do have a very good family structure and they even still want to welcome a pedophile back. https://www.snapnetwork.org/snap_statements/2010_statements/090310_snap_wants_probe_into_amish_for_hiding_child_sex_crimes.htm
God created things that are good and bad, vs Nature made things. quite simple. We used to think of certain animals as noble, alchemy discovered that noble lion's urine did not contain gold. Interesting how the japanese attitude of "it cannot be helped" is tied into the culture whereas feminists want to smash the patriarchy.
>>11368375
What about the flynn effect? How do you study the IQ of the dead?

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 9 06:29:59 2020 No.11371458 >>11370301 Kys lol

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 9 10:35:02 2020 No.11371818 >>11265272 If your forefathers only had 2 children you will only have 16 4th cousins. Outbreeding is inevitable.

Anonymous Sun Feb 9 10:51:00 2020 No.11371836

>>11265272
you know this is why white people have more genetic disorders that they suffer from vs other races.

fun fact the 'greatest" generation had a problem with this shit. hitler and einstein did it. eugenics is funny in that people started doing it with animals based on looks not knowing the consequences genetically. look at dogs. animal husbandry is built around inbreeding and dogs are the worst of the lot in regards to domesticated animals. nobody gives a fuck what a cats breed is its a cat you dumb nigger pet it love it you fucking retard. dogs no people want this breed or that breed and they are 1 step away from being unable to reproduce from inbreeding at any given moment

Anonymous Sun Feb 9 11:02:50 2020 No.11371853

>>11371818
No, You'd have 256 unique 4th cousins assuming no other shared ancestors if everyone had only 2 kids see the equation here >>11302331
1st = 4
2nd = 16
3rd = 64
4th = 256

and the issue is more about shared relatedness if all your various shared ancestors put you above 0.01% (6h cousin) relatedness then you're likely to conceive more kids than average with the level increasing until inbreeding depression effects kick in, this effect is possibly due to prezygotic membrane compatibility. see>>11363812 &>>11281045

>>11371836
that only applies to poorly bred pets
Working breeds like sheep dogs or police dogs have very professional thorough breeding policies to select only the fittest to breed from.

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 9 11:08:33 2020 No.11371863 >>11371836 actually I missed the thrust of your argument, if you did any research at all you'd discover that whites are statistically some of the least inbred, african and muslim countries have instances of of repeated first cousin marriage over 60%

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/sci/ - Science & Math