/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.1124157]

http://preview.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-04/u-s-s-13-trillion-debt-poised-to-overtake-weigh-down-gd
p-chart-of-day.html
>$13 Trillion Debt Poised to Overtake GDP
>>President Barack Obama is poised to increase the U.S. debt to a level that exceeds the value of the nation's annual economic output

Well, you're scientists, aren't you?

What now? Are we doomed? Give me your opinion on the state of the American economy.

[Anonymous No.1124162]

i seriously hope youre not >implying
that economics is science

[Anonymous No.1124164]

If we keep Republicans/Democrats in office, then yes, we're doomed.

Not science though. Take it to /new/, I'm sure they'd like to comment on it. >.>

[Anonymous No.1124168]

>>1124162
Yeah, economics is as much of a science as computer science.

Not a science at all.

[Anonymous No.1124171]

>>1124162
Not at all! I just want the opinion of scientists.

[Anonymous No.1124179]

>>1124171
>i want the opinion of someone who has no real credentials about the topic at hand to give an opinion

i'd say this is part of the problem

[Anonymous No.1124181]

>>1124164
You know that's a horrible idea. Besides, they're already talking about it, and every thread about it has turned into a "Blacks are the problem" thread.

[Anonymous No.1124187]

>>1124179
>implying economists have any real credentials

[Anonymous No.1124195]

>>1124179
Some would say the problem is that people who appear to be qualified (econ majors, for instance) suffer from severe groupthink issues.

A fresh view from an intelligent outsider would be appreciated.

[Anonymous No.1124209]

I know nothing about economics besides what's in my wallet.

I view Wall Street as a bunch of wizards that failed out of Hogwarts.

[Anonymous No.1124222]

>>1124195
>>1124187

my point is that i'm not an expert in this field, so my opinion should not be valid. However if you insist...

there's nothing you or i can do about it so whats the fucking point.

[Anonymous No.1124237]

Forget it.

[Anonymous No.1124240]

The U.S is as fucked as fucked gets basically. We're in a marginally better economic position than Greece, but no one can afford to bail us out and there's no simple solution. Greece just had to raise taxes and cut back spending on stupid shit. America needs to raise taxes, get UHC, and slash the military budget, but the Republican party keeps shitting on economic responsibility. The democrats spend less, but still far too much while keeping taxes too low. It's a completely unsustainable system, but the American public and politicians refuse to make any significant changes to it.

[Anonymous No.1124254]

>>1124240
Democrats are shitting on it nearly as much as Republicans. We don't need to raise taxes at all, we just need to get rid of unnecessary shit which makes up 99% of the US government today.

[Anonymous No.1124261]

Obviously its because of obama.
Not because he's a bad president, but because he's black.
I heard this is news somewhere

[Anonymous No.1124268]

>>1124240

This.

Greece fucked the euro beyond recognition because their deficit was 12.7% of their GDP. What elected official in America is going to have the balls to slash spending and raise taxes? No one. The debt tipping point will come out of nowhere just like the mortgage shit. Any sane person should learn their bartering skills right now, because we'll soon be using wampum again.

[Anonymous No.1124274]

>>1124268
>bartering skills

lol, i love people like you.

[Anonymous No.1124278]

[Anonymous No.1124283]

The biggest expenditures are the military and entitlements (medicare, medicaid, social security, etc). The solution: order the military execute the elderly, then disband. Obvious in hindsight.

[Anonymous No.1124291]

legalize marijuana and tax it, this would reverse the tax dollars used in the arrest/incarceration of people for marijuana and add a source or revenue.
also stop giving tax breaks to oil companies, tax them like any other company.
pull out of iraq and afghanistan tomorrow.
only build 3 new aircraft carriers instead of 11.
stop foreign aid to all countries like israel and mexico.
end nafta and any free/fair trade agreements with china and put tariffs on all imported goods.

[Anonymous No.1124303]

>>1124291
This.

Exactly why we need a Libertarian right now.

[Anonymous No.1124307]

>end nafta and any free/fair trade agreements with china and put tariffs on all imported goods.
This is a HORRIBLE idea.

[Anonymous No.1124325]

>>1124303
There's a big gap between undoing the breaks that corporations get, and all-out Libertarianism.

Oh wait! I just realised!

THIS ISN'T SCIENCE AT ALL!

[Anonymous No.1124329]

>>1124307
explain why this is a horrible idea?
nearly no goods are produced domestically anymore and this would enable businesses domestically to compete with product that is imported.

[Anonymous No.1124324]

End the stupefyingly corrupt fucking farm subsidies where Arab sheiks and dead people get paid millions not to plant.

[Anonymous No.1124341]

>>1124307

Why is this a horrible idea? The US is already at the bottom of the trade deficit list by country. We export jack shit. So you'll have to pay a quarter more for a Made in China Wal-Mart hammer. I'm ok with that.

[Anonymous No.1124350]

>>1124325
We don't need to go full-blown Libertarian.

We DO need to go a LONG ways away from Republican/Democrat corporatism.

We need to elect a lot more Libertarians for the time being, shrink the government a ton, THEN find a balance point.

[Anonymous No.1124353]

>>1124291
oh yeah i forgot impose a 1% national sales tax, this would become a source of revenue that was pregviously untapped and would tax every sale with no breaks on any one. look at our gdp, if 1% of that was turned into taxes it would equate to a few hundred million a year.
also another thing i forgot is to end the earmarks system we have in congress.

[Anonymous No.1124358]

>>1124329
Do you know what a nation does when another nation props up a trade barrier, especially one directed at them?

They retaliate with their own trade barriers. Or have you forgotten the Tariff Act of 1930?

[Anonymous No.1124362]

In less than 40 years, the government will only be able to pay for three things: Interest on the national debt, "some" Social Security and "some" Medicare. It will not be able to afford any of the other functions it now performs.

The United States is probably going to go broke during your lifetimes. Actually, it's already broke, but getting deeper into debt allows it to keep running on thin air, like the Road Runner.

[Anonymous No.1124369]

>>1124362
We can fix this by cutting entitlement and military spending.

[Anonymous No.1124371]

>>1124358
the fact of the matter is that there are already trade barriers in china, they have tariffs for imported items from the usa, that is why it is called 'fair' trade relationship with china instead of 'free' trade with them.

[Anonymous No.1124383]

>>1124324
oh fuck this
fucking subsidies

[Anonymous No.1124391]

>>1124369
this is somewhat true, but you also forget we need to abolish the federal reserve bank at the same time. that is in reality why income taxes exist. we have mortgaged out our future earnings to a privately owned, publicly subsidized bank in return for them to print our currency.
this is what is truly driving our decline. the federal reserve bank does not have a publicly availible list of share holders nor are its profitable activities taxed like other banks.

[Anonymous No.1124390]

>>1124369
This.

If states want free/socialized health care, or welfare programs, that's their business. The US as a whole can't handle it though.

We also need to cut the fuck out of countries where we're not wanted, and stop wasting money on shit countries like Israel.

[Anonymous No.1124399]

>>1124371
That's my point. If we retaliate, international trade falls apart like it did during the Depression, which will turn our current Recession into a full-blown Depression, which will obviously fuck us all over!

We have to use the debt they own to leverage them into fixing their protectionist monetary policies, including their false currency.

[Anonymous No.1124407]

>>1124391
This is actually feasible. Start by auditing the Fed, and move on from there.

[Anonymous No.1124416]

>>1124407
The House PASSED a bill (authored by Ron Paul, just saying) that would audit the Federal Reserve.

You know what the Senate did?

Well, I'm sure you can guess. Fucking pricks.

[Anonymous No.1124430]

>But I've been squirreling away my money in a nest egg for my entire working life!

A lot of good that will do when the government defaults on its debts and America experiences Hungarian-style hyperinflation, where wages rise daily and prices rise hourly.

Fucking short-sighted baby boomer fucks caused this mess and they'll be conveniently dead just in time to miss it.

[Anonymous No.1124437]

>>1124416
List of Senators to not vote for:

http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-05-11/senate-rejects-vitters-audit-the-fed-amendment-37-62/

All of the Nay votes.

[Anonymous No.1124442]

>>1124416
I know, and I raged too, but that's how it starts.

Bernie Sanders is my hero.

[Anonymous No.1124444]

>>1124399
using our debt to them to influence thheir policies could blow up in our faces, you forget that the un is pretty much on the chinese's dick and would back them if it ever came to a point of conflict. also they could call in their debt and totally fuck us over if we pushed too hard. a low tariff towards imported goods of say 2% to be added at time of sale would not impose any threat and be passed directly to the consumer.

[Anonymous No.1124456]

>>1124442
>Bernie Sanders
This man is a God among subhumans.

[Anonymous No.1124482]

>>1124442
>>1124456
Well, idk.

I'm a huge enemy of national involvement in business, but I don't mind communalism/socialism on the state/local level.

Still, he voted in favor of the audit, so I give him praise for that.

[Anonymous No.1124487]

>also they could call in their debt and totally fuck us over

My John Bircher father thinks that this is China's endgame.

On the one hand, he has a point. Getting hopelessly indebted to a sworn Communist enemy? What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous No.1124485]

>>1124416
let me guess they never did audit the federal reserve? or they put people up on congressional hearings that only said three letters? fif?

[Anonymous No.1124511]

>>1124487
this is what i fear, they could do the inverse of waht i was talking about, they could clal in their debt and use that to effect policies over here to mirror their own.

[Anonymous No.1124546]

>>1124444
>could blow up in our faces
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
>you forget that the un is pretty much on the chinese's dick and would back them if it ever came to a point of conflict.
Don't worry about the world's most impotent supranational body. They can't stop us from doing what it takes to preserve our economy.
>also they could call in their debt
I wouldn't be too worried about this either. Like I mentioned, they are implementing a monetary policy that is extremely questionable. They've spent quite some time advocating for an alternative world currency. Now, why would they be worried about that? Read about Deng Xiaoping circa 1987 for some eyebrow raising stuff.
>a low tariff towards imported goods of say 2% to be added at time of sale would not impose any threat and be passed directly to the consumer.
I just don't like it. Tariffs are fundamental economic no-nos, and we can't, like I said, risk repeating the disaster of 1930.

[Anonymous No.1124561]

Recession will last a few years (this is a nasty one). Unemployment will go down .5% every year for a few more years until we return to natural employment (~5%). Fed needs to sell of risky assets over time to restore confidence in government bonds, and raise interest as soon as possible to dodge a liquidity trap. Lower taxes unilaterally, and institute a pollution tax to deal with non-green companies and the negative externalities they create. Keep free trade (see comparative advantage as to why we benefit). Have the government keep spending like a motherfucker. The slump is going long enough that fiscal action is necessary, not just monetary. Besides, the RGDP will grow enough that all the debt won't really matter. Take this with a grain of salt as I'm not an economist, I've just taken a class. This is pretty first grade for economics. Oh and trade deficits aren't bad.

[Anonymous No.1124570]

>>1124561
A LIBERAL!

[Anonymous No.1124578]

>>1124168
FUCK YOU, COMPUTER SCIENCE IS A... who the fuck am I kidding the basis of computer science is just fucking around with parts that engineers build

even programming all the code is there you just put the pieces together ....

[Anonymous No.1124588]

>>1124570

On which point? Do you disagree with an active fiscal policy?

[Anonymous No.1124595]

>>1124588
The stimulus failed. Stop parroting this liberal talking point.

[Anonymous No.1124605]

my face when /sci/ faggots pretend they know economics and try to support protectionism

[Anonymous No.1124608]

>Oh and trade deficits aren't bad.

Because funneling hundreds of billion of dollars a year to insane Muslims for their oil helps us how?

[Anonymous No.1124615]

>>1124595
Ever heard of policy lags (specifically an effect or take effect lag)? That's the criticism with a stimulus package. It'll take about five years to see the effects of government injection.

[Anonymous No.1124628]

>>1124487

HA! You described china as both "enemy" and "communist"!

seriously though, do you even know why china keeps on purchasing US bonds? In order to depress the CNY.

Inflate the USD. Inflation is basically a tax on all persons holding USD, and China being one of the largest of them.

[Anonymous No.1124636]

>>1124156

"w" + "r" - "r" + "w" + "l" - "l" + "w" + "k" - "k" + "." + "b" - "b" + "a" + "l" - "l" + "n" + "o" - "o" + "o" + "a" - "a" + "n" + "e" - "e" + "t" + "a" - "a" + "a" + "i" - "i" + "l" + "b" - "b" + "k" + "m" - "m" + "." + "p" - "p" + "s" + "o" - "o" + "e" + "k" - "k"

[Anonymous No.1124635]

>>1124608 Because they're stuck with piles of our money. What are they going to do with stacks of our paper? They only have worth if they are invested back into our economy. Essentially, this means that the money comes back into our economy in the form of buying American assets or G&S, transfers, etc. Capital inflow into the American economy helps us grow, become richer, etc.

[Anonymous No.1124640]

>>1124546
that hawley-smoot tariff act of 1930 did fuck things up pretty badly for us back then. but that was mainly because the tariff was set at 13% and slowly climbed up to as high as 50% towards its end. what i am talking about is a 2% tax, flat on all imported items to help pay for the military that protects the trade routes these items come in on. it is pretty much a protection tax. anyways, i understand that the idea is derragatory in many minds becausae of how poorly the tariff act of 1930 failed. why not just impost a 2% sales tax on all sales?

[Anonymous No.1124646]

Japan and Italy are both well over 100% debt-over-GDP. Japan is nearly at 200%, in fact. It's not the end of the world. I believe however that this indicator is the United State's gross debt - it has to be remembered that America is one of the world's largest creditors, and its net debt is about half of that.

[Anonymous No.1124656]

>>1124561
i agreew with keeping 'free' trade agreements, but china, who is our largest trade partner does not recognize a free trade agreement with us and while we allow their goods into our country without tariff they do not, this is the problem i think needs to be solved.
auditing the federal reserve bank or abolishing it completely would be a benefit in my opinion as well, rather than pay a corporate bank to print our money we could audit them and shut them down, moving money printing to public means.

[Anonymous No.1124657]

>>1124595

[Anonymous No.1124659]

>>1124640 Even 2% creates some DWL. Here's a shitty graph

[Anonymous No.1124675]

>>1124646
so why not call in our loans or sell them to china to reduce what we owe them? i am not highly educated in how international finances work on the level of sovergn nations so if this si stupidity let me know..

[Anonymous No.1124671]

>auditing the federal reserve bank or abolishing it completely would be a benefit in my opinion as well

[Anonymous No.1124689]

all we need is a national bank. and to stop forcing our tax-funded public safety services to save burning churches

[Anonymous No.1124694]

>>1124671
how is this faggotry? i am confused? why is having a bank that is pretty much above taxation an d controls national intrest and some international intrest rates are? isn't this exactly what our founding fathers in america did not want? was a system like libor in england has?

[Anonymous No.1124704]

WE'RE DOOMED!

[Anonymous No.1124708]

>>1124689
why not tax religous orgianzations on income like anyother entity?

[Anonymous No.1124717]

Holy shit /sci/. You know nothing about economics. I give up.

[Anonymous No.1124722]

>>1124717
What's wrong with killing the fed, which is essentially legal robbery and imaginary money?

[Anonymous No.1124723]

>>1124717
nope, not really. that is why this is called /sci/ not /eco/

[Anonymous No.1124726]

>>1124689
>all we need is a national bank
Fuck this. Governemnt everywhere.

[Anonymous No.1124727]

Well as an Australian I am eagerly awaiting the collapse of the US into a 3rd world country.

[Anonymous No.1124748]

i realize the idea of killing the fed is something born of the faggotree which is zeitgeist.
lol. i understand why we need a bank that is seperate from the government, simply because if congress had a piggy bank to dip into it would be empty in 2 seconds. having an agreement with the fed to stop charging to print money would alleviate some woes, but not much. in any case our government survives pay check to pay check and this is not a successful strategy for survival for any entity. basically all i can agree with on this post is this
>>1124291
minus the tariffs on imported goods. what i would suggest is to bring china in for trade negotiations and ask them for a free trade agreement with the usa to level out the playing field.

[Anonymous No.1124776]

>>1124708
because then religious organizations have a stake in the government. however, i do think that donations to religious organizations should not be tax exempt
>>1124726
we would still have private banks, but a national bank would be just fine to have in addition.

[Anonymous No.1124804]

>>1124748
We need to do more, but cutting wasteful spending is the best start. People forget that ending both wars in the Mid East would only restore a tiny percentage of our GDP. We need to reevaluate Military and Entitlement spending immediately, as out Military is bloated and our Entitlements, especially Social Security, are not solvent.

[Anonymous No.1124815]

>>1124804
yes. the us navy is larger than the next 17 largest navies combined

[Anonymous No.1124823]

>>1124727
I am also an Australian posting in a thread that does not belong on this board

[Anonymous No.1124855]

>>1124748
>>1124804
But...the military funds /sci/!

[Anonymous No.1124863]

They spend a lot of money because they get to get it back in larger taxes. The more they spend -- the more taxes they get back.

[Anonymous No.1124884]

I wish we had a /gov/ board so that trolls would have a place to run free and have fun

[Anonymous No.1124885]

>>1124884
It's called /new/, and that's where this shit belongs.

[Anonymous No.1124887]

>>1124863
Oh boy inflation
I can't wait for my money to be worthless

[Anonymous No.1124889]

>>1124884
You are a troll for not adding to the conversation. More spending equals more taxes.