Is Mandarin better suited for an international language than English?

[Anonymous No.11114201]

1. Chinese combines agglutinative word derivation with regular analytic grammar, avoiding both the difficulty of synthetic languages and the large vocabularies needed by isolating languages. English takes the worst of both sides, having highly irregular remnants of lost synthetic grammar, and almost no useful word derivation.

2. No features "unlearnable" for foreigners, like noun cases or articles.

3. Tiny vocabulary, per 1. ~3500 characters is sufficient even for science heavy topics.

4. Pronunciation on the simpler side; a restricted set of simple syllables, with no unusual features. (tone doesn't seem to be a problem in practice except for people who reached advanced levels while ignoring tones, and tones are not uncommon worldwide)
English has one of the largest vowel inventories, several rare consonants, and complex syllables.

5. The everyday way of expression is highly literal; almost everything what is said is meant literally, what is meant figuratively usually makes no literal sense.
English has an elaborate system of hinting and avoidance speech that may be hard to master for speakers of unrelated langauges; things that make sense literally may not be meant literally and this may lead to unnoticeable misunderstandings, as literally meant statements of foreign speakers may be interpreted in highly unpredictable ways by native speakers; truthful statements can imply lies and seemingly innocuous comments may be interpreted as insults.

Some counterarguments:
>It is still necessary to learn over 3000 characters to be fully fluent.
English also needs to be memorized to a large extent, since the spelling is unpredictable.

>My dictionary lists 196000 words
>for example, you can say 漂亮, 美丽, 秀美,美秀, 艳丽, 绚丽, 佳美, or even stuff like 窈窕.

Most of those are obvious and don't need to be learned separately. 漂 may actually a case of a missing character, since all the other instances are pronounced piao1

[Anonymous No.11114212]

>>11114201
Their writing system is retarded and inneficient, requiring memorisation of thousands of characters. European languages have only few characters which approximate sounds we make and that means inventing new words from scratch or existing words is easy. You can't just make a new Chinese hieroglyph, because no one would understand how to pronounce it.

[Solivagus No.11114213]

>>11114201
By that standard why not just make the Chinese A.I. do everything and call it 永遠溝通?

[Anonymous No.11114216]

>>11114201
Chinese is terrible because nobody, Chinks included, can even read written Chinkoid.

[Solivagus No.11114217]

>>11114212
The limited character set of the latin alphabet is what allows its users to require unique and complex word arrangement. It is what encourages English to explore different perspective and interpretations instead of getting semantic-logged by the history of its culture.

Most other languages are heavily based on cultural predicate and that is where English beats the rest of world, hands down: It can survive with virtually nil.

[Anonymous No.11114220]

>>11114201
I would say that it's less suited for an international language than English purely based on what is considered the already existing distribution of languages throughout the world. Although the number of English and Mandarin speakers throughout the world is roughly similar, Mandarin is primarily spoken in China, whereas English is already understood in important institutions like business, universities, research, etc, throughout the world. In addition, a large portion of the world's population already speaks a germanic or latin based language, allowing an easier transition into English. And their writing system is truly terrible.

[Anonymous No.11114242]

>>11114212
>>11114217
That is not actually the case in English which uses the alphabet in such a retarded way it could just as well use characters and it would make almost no difference. (similar sounding characters also often look alike)
It's actually pretty hard to read an alphabet, the ability to hear the sound is not innate, Chinese characters make dyslexia virtually nonexistent in China, and can be read faster.

>>11114217
See 5. English is actually completely awful in that regard, whcih may not be very obvious if you speak another Germanic or Romance language.

>>11114220
That is hardly an argument for anything. Look where English was two centuries ago.

[Anonymous No.11114244]

>>11114212
>>11114217
That is not actually the case in English which uses the alphabet in such a retarded way it could just as well use characters and it would make almost no difference. (similar sounding characters also often look alike)
It's actually pretty hard to read an alphabet, the ability to hear the sound is not innate, Chinese characters make dyslexia virtually nonexistent in China, and can be read faster.

>>11114213
No idea what A.I. has to do with that, but otherwise you are right.

>>11114217
See 5. English is actually completely awful in that regard, whcih may not be very obvious if you speak another Germanic or Romance language.

>>11114220
That is hardly an argument for anything. Look where English was two centuries ago.

[Solivagus No.11114246]

>>11114244
Your argument for Chinese is still based on accounting and not on artistic expression at this point. Whichever ones provides the greatest adherence to a dictionary definition is not what defines the integrity of message/messenger/language.

[Anonymous No.11114251]

>>11114217
And Chinese, on the other hand, due to its limited number of characters (since it's very hard to make and have everyone accept new ones) has to create many meanings on many of them. This means that as the amount of things you want to label increases, it gets much harder to keep track of all the different meanings every symbol has. In English you just create a new word and everyone can approximately understand how it's pronounced.

The only reason Chinese words have so many different literal and non-literal meanings which need to be taken into account all the time is because the writing system is limiting the language. English is free from it.

[Solivagus No.11114260]

>>11114251
+1 fo' ma boi

Eventually if you don't know the 'character' in Chinese and all of its extra fancy-pants interpretation then you may lose a lot of nuance. In English you can just rape an understanding and still get the point across, even if it is a bit crass about it. Chinese has too much 'respect my authority', which is great for isolation art but pretty horrible for a society based on actually sharing with open-slut attitudes.

Worst that happens is someone just goes 'word salad' as if that has some educational value in expressing. We're all unique language users that seek a functional grammar of translation that is essentially one massive tautological conjugate.

>The snake that fucked its own ass

[Anonymous No.11114277]

>>11114212
The reasoning is terrible. With a simple memorization of 10 radicals from Chinese, you can make sense of 100+ different meanings.

With 26 memorization of english alphabet, there is 0 meaning in any infinite number of combination. Each letter is a sound and not a meaning unto itself. Each sound differs from others in different space and time. So 26 latin characters are not the same in Rome as it is in US in 100 years nor is it in Germany 500 years ago or Bulgaria 1000 years ago and so on. Where as if you have the 10 simple radicals from Chinese, no matter where you go, the meaning stays the same. The sound will be very different from different space/time.

The reason English has to "invent" new word is because the language is a very limited tool and each new meaning must be derived from local culture/society and not from the language itself.

[Solivagus No.11114301]

>>11114277
What doesn't Chinese try to win over by argument of superior predicate?

[Anonymous No.11114310]

>>11114201
>Linguistics
Finally some social science in my /sci/

[Anonymous No.11114314]

tiny vocabulary is a bad thing

[Anonymous No.11114320]

>>11114251
>>11114314

Not true, since Chinese supports agglutination in word derivation, so it can glue existing characters together to create new meanings. Others can not only guess (know) how the new word is pronounced, they can also guess its meaning.

起电机 - qidianji - begin electricity machine - dynamo
电脑 - diannao - electricity brain - computer
巴氏杀菌 - (bashi)shajun - Pasteur (phonetic) kill germ
塑料 - suliao - sculpt/mold material
电话 - dianhua - electricity talk
手机 - shouji - hand machine
留声机 - liushengji - keep sound machine
飞机 - feiji - fly machine
磁浮 - cifu - magnet float
白炽灯 - baichideng - white burning lamp
荧光灯 - yingguangdeng - shine light lamp
自行车 - jixingche - self move vehicle (行 is antoher character that seems to be used for what should be two entirely different words)

And so on. As long as you know the characters, you will get at least some idea what the combination is referring to.

>The only reason Chinese words have so many different literal and non-literal meanings which need to be taken into account all the time is because the writing system is limiting the language. English is free from it.

It's more a problem of providing clear English definitions, since characters tend to have somewhat more abstract meanings than English words. The meaning usually becomes obvious if you look at multiple combinations where the character is used.

[Anonymous No.11114323]

>>11114201
Is number 5 why Chinese people are literal and autistic? Surely there is great Chinese literature that utilizes figurative concepts.

[Anonymous No.11114330]

>>11114201
English is one of the easiest launguages to learn. Ask any foreigner.

[Anonymous No.11114335]

>>11114277
>The reason English has to "invent" new word is because the language is a very limited tool and each new meaning must be derived from local culture/society and not from the language itself.

This has to be an argument in favour of english though.

Anyway mandarin is garbage for international communication because only the mandarin believe there's a difference between their hundreds of different "sh" sounds.

[Anonymous No.11114345]

>>11114335
>This has to be an argument in favour of english though.
Only if you want a localized language that is incommunicable with others. That defeats the very purpose of language, to communicate. Thankfully modern internet/world solves this issues, but in the past, you got something like Europe where dozens/hundreds of different language popped up when they weren't closely binded. In China, when their civs fell apart, its easy to put them right back up because they mostly share the same written language.

What I fear is fragmentation in the future where PIE derived language creates divides cultures as we fall into outer space with very little communication thus becoming alien to each other.

[Anonymous No.11114347]

>>11114320
You know why we don't talk like that in english?
It sounds retarded.

[Anonymous No.11114364]

>>11114277
>If you memorize few Chinese symbols and their meanings, you know Chinese words
>If you memorize Latin alphabet you don't know the meaning of words

What the fuck is that argument even about lol. Chinese characters are hieroglyphs that got simplified multiple times and don't carry any information today on their own today. In Latin alphabet, every letter is a sound. Today, many languages had adopted it for easier communication, but changed the meanings of letters to suit them better. English, for example, absolutely butchered those meanings. Still, in most languages the letters correspond to similar sounds - "a" is almost always some type of "a" sound.

>Where as if you have the 10 simple radicals from Chinese, no matter where you go, the meaning stays the same.

Lol no. They mean nothing in Europe, just as French means nothing to Hungarians. Why are you even comparing being able to communicate in one country in one language to communicating in different countries in different languages... German is not a dialect of Bulgarian or English, they just share a writing systems which makes communication way easier.

[Anonymous No.11114374]

Hangul is the best writing system.

[Anonymous No.11114389]

>>11114364
>Chinese characters are hieroglyphs
Both Chinese and English are hieroglyphs. English letters lost its meaning early on. Chinese didn't.

>Lol no. They mean nothing in Europe
The argument is as goes, if someone learns 10 simple letters of Chinese vs 10 simple letters of English. On the base, you get meaning from the Chinese and nothing from English. So with 10 simple Chinese letters with meaning, you can make an infinite number of combinations of combinations. Carrying meaning in each of them that can be roughly understood by every other person who learns those 10 simple letters.

[Anonymous No.11114394]

>>11114374
Indeed. To bad Korean isn't a simple language at all.

[Anonymous No.11114410]

There is a reason alphabet-based writing systems are more widespread.
They do not inhibit communication the way hieroglyphs do. Abstraction makes things easier to understand and easier to study.
It's why it's less tedious to learn speaking 3 to 5 European (read civilized) languages, but it takes you about as long to learn chink or nip.
Writing systems are a huge barrier. Something that lets you guess at the pronunciation of a word and lets you easily read/write/speak the word without knowing what it means fosters understanding rapidly. Looking up a chink word in a dictionary is a pain, writing it in pinyin to search its meaning is impossible and you can't easily ask someone, because you can't even say the word.
It's for that reasin also near impossible to learn chink through osmosis. Unlike real languages.

Chink will never be a language used outside China until they drop the hieroglyphs.

[Anonymous No.11114412]

>>11114201
Yellow claws typed this post

[Anonymous No.11114415]

This is retarded.

Japanese on top of kanji use kana because it was so much unconvenient to only use them.

Korean decided to give up on chinese characters because of how complicated it was for everyone to learn them.

Chinese themselves widly use latin characters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin
.

I wont even talk about how unpractical chinese dictionnaries are compared to latin ones.

How do you except to introduce characters, that even the countries where it was introduced centuries ago can't even rely on completely?

[Anonymous No.11114418]

>>11114394
Just write Chink in Hangul
hire me CCP, I'll fix your country

[Anonymous No.11114427]

>>11114389
Latin alphabet was never hieroglyphic.. it represented the sounds in Latin. English then adopted it and after hundreds of years the sounds that are associated with letters changed. Additionally, new sounds became associated with letter combinations (like "th"). Today it's chaos, yes. Not every language has that, though - Polish is very conservative in that regard, letters almost always sound exactly the same.

You might have a point if you compared English words to Chinese symbols. English words usually don't have many meanings and are very precise. Chinese can't do that because of the limited word pool.

10 Chinese symbols is nowhere near enough to communicate in Chinese. Then you would have to know what the combinations mean, which is also not obvious. Like the other (or you? Idk) anon has shown - "electricity brain" means computer. But what if I meant a brain powered by electricity? Or a robot? Or an AI? You need to know many, many symbols to understand the nuances.

[Anonymous No.11114457]

I tried to learn Mandarin in high school for 4 years. It's very hard, nearly impossible to listen/talk to other people with. There are fucking tones that determine the meaning of a word. Which in a conversation who the fuck is listening to tones + the word. "muh hieroglyphs", people don't speak in hieroglyphs idiot. I'm currently learning Japanese as my second language in university, which is actually easier than Chink + a lot of the language is basically European/English at this point.

[Anonymous No.11114467]

>>11114201
>2. and 5. waaah English is hard to learn and may offend 3rd worlders
Who gives a flying fuck? Yes, let us sacrifice our beautiful, expressive language so that we can better communicate with the foreign hordes. Fuck off seriously.

[Anonymous No.11114469]

>>11114201
Why would I want to use retarded logograms when I have based phonograms?

[Anonymous No.11114485]

>>11114323
>Surely there is great Chinese literature that utilizes figurative concepts.
I'm not aware of any, to be honest. There are the four character idioms that are often metaphors, but those are expected to be memorized, not figured out.
Openly praising something that is obviously awful is about as far as Chinese satire goes. (the reason why The Onion was taken many times as real news. It's just not a thing in China)
I tried to look it up and found some really desperate attempts to call things metaphors: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1001526.pdf

But maybe somebody will correct me.

>>11114335
> because only the mandarin believe there's a difference between their hundreds of different "sh" sounds.

That may actually be more correct than you think. It's the usual practice that any sound that is pronoucned differently in whatever situation is called a different sound. Mandarin phonology is highly restrictive to which consonats can go with what vowels, so being able to distinguish those is more a bonus, and I guess those would be called one sound and spelled the same if Mandarin was an european language, because european linguists only call different sounds those sounds that can distinguish words, which most of the Mandarin sh sounds can not.

>>11114364
Characters do carry information, as my examples show. >>11114320

>>11114415
Yet they haven't gotten rid of kanji.

>>11114418
Try to invent Hangul that will distinguis all chinese words that sound different. I don't think it will be easy.

>>11114427
The phoenician alphabet originally came from egyptian hieroglyphics, I think, so it isn't entirely wrong.

>>11114457
>Which in a conversation who the fuck is listening to tones + the word.
You don't. You get used to it and start hearing them as different words instead after a while.

>>11114469
My argument was that English also needs to be memorized because of how horrible it is, so it isn't that much worse.

[Anonymous No.11114494]

>>11114485
>Try to invent Hangul that will distinguis all chinese words that sound different. I don't think it will be easy.
oh wait, we can just pinyin, easy

[Anonymous No.11114523]

>>11114485
>Yet they haven't gotten rid of kanji.

Many reasons for that, some being historical as well as the fact that japanese has a lot of homonyms. Kanji also have some advantages.

But even so in the last century japanese people greatly simplified the kanji they used both in their forms (reducing the number of stroke) and in their number (making a list of usable kanji in official documents as well as in names).

For Korea they don't even use it anymore aside from in names (you have to consider the historical aspect of it).
And for China they fucking use latin in their dictionnary (to give pronunciation and order words).

Like I said chinese characters do have some advantages in some cases, but they are far outweighted by their disadvantages.
There is a reaso those countries aren't entirely dependant on chinese characters as well as why like this anon said
>>11114410
phonograms are way more widespread than logograms.

[Anonymous No.11114557]

>>11114212
You learn "radicals", fundamental pieces of a character, as opposed to whole characters at a time. A character tells you the meaning of a word as opposed to the pronunciation, so people who speak different dialects of Chinese can still fully understand each other by exchanging writing (which would help its case for being used internationally). Plus, you can take an educated guess to the pronunciation of the character, especially if you have seen similar characters before.

[Anonymous No.11114585]

Why not Esperanto?

It has all the pros of Chinese and none of the cons of both Chinese and English

[Anonymous No.11114591]

>type 5 language
>3500 characters
>simple pronunciation
>implying anyone wants to speak this garbage
Fuck off commie. June 4th 1989, the Tienanmen Square Massacre. Also, >>>/int/.

[Anonymous No.11114592]

Why not Lojban?

[Anonymous No.11114613]

>>11114585
>>11114592
Without massive institutional support an artificial language will never see widespread use.

[Anonymous No.11114615]

>>11114592
Try looking for lojban on YouTube.
Then try to look for Esperanto.

[Anonymous No.11114620]

>>11114613
I suspect you are right.
Anyway you can have huge institutional support but America will never learn Chinese or Russian, and Russia and China will never learn English.

China and Russia are far more prone to learn Esperanto than English

[Anonymous No.11114626]

>>11114320
>巴氏杀菌 - (bashi)shajun - Pasteur (phonetic) kill germ
In what world is Pasteur pronounced bashi?

[Anonymous No.11114628]

>>11114585
As someone who enjoys learning languages, I've never heard of Esperanto. I am interested in learning it now and will throw in a vote to make this preferred as the international standard.

[Anonymous No.11114641]

>>11114628
>As someone who enjoys learning languages, I've never heard of Esperanto.

Never heard about Esperanto?

Impossible.

Download Amikumu and visit Esperanto Page on Reddit.

If you really enjoy learning languages you will probably be proficient in a week or less.

[Anonymous No.11114646]

>>11114201
>hieroglyphics better than an alphabet known worldwide
>imagine typing hieroglyphics
pic related is the efficiency of chink language
>english is complex
you must be a brainlet of tremendous proportion to say that

[Anonymous No.11114650]

>>11114201
>spelling is unpredictable
having the pattern recognition of a baboon

[Anonymous No.11114658]

>>11114585
As someone who knows portuguese and french I can understand spoken Esperanto very well. It's really weird.
But Asians often complain that esperando isn't as simple as westerns make it to be

[Anonymous No.11114660]

>>11114244
>English is actually completely awful in that regard
no it's not you tard

[Anonymous No.11114667]

>>11114658
Yeah clearly is not that easy for them as it is for westerners, especially romance language speakers.

Nevertheless it is still far easier than any other natural language

Heard some statistics for Japanese. 6 month for Esperanto while many years for English. And a broken English.

[Anonymous No.11114674]

>>11114658
Whenever someone says "Esparanto is a universal language" is makes me laugh. Esparanto is a universal language as far as Japanese is a universal language. That is to say, a Chinese person can learn Japanese language fairly easy because of Japanese language's shared vocabularies. Esparanto is easy to someone who speaks romance language. The grammar/vocab are just roughly same as what you'd find in romance languages.

Its a dumb meme at this point and serves no purpose other than a hobby project with no use.

[Anonymous No.11114677]

>>11114667
To be fair, highschool English doesn't work because locking kids in a room and forcing them to study something doesn't work very well.
But yeah, English is much harder than most people realize. In other hand I have heard consistent claims that you can learn all of Esperanto's grammar rules in one or two days.

[Anonymous No.11114692]

>>11114674
Experience of many people Aaron's the world says otherwise.

Moreover no one ever used the world "universal". World language, yes. International, yes. But not universal. That's simply not an Esperanto claim.

Vocabulary is mostly agglutinative and based over a somewhat restricted set of roots with a few easy and very flexible grammar rules.

This way even if the roots come from Indo European, that's not an issue

[Anonymous No.11114703]

>>11114677
Highschool English first work for the same reason Esperanto still doesn't work .

People will learn things they find useful.

If they don't have the need of communication, they simply won't have the need of learning a language.

[Anonymous No.11114704]

>>11114646
english syntax is super irregular... take for example how the verb "go" interacts with the destination.

"I go to the store"
"I go to school"
"I go home"

in each of these examples the grammar is slightly different. there are tons of irregularities like this which can easily take years to learn, and other languages definitely don't have these many. but even worse than this is vocabulary construction:

"during" "endure" "durable" but FUCK YOU, no "to dure"
"king" is germanic, etymologically unrelated to "royal, reign, rule, ..." which are originally latin/PIE further back
"mural" meaning "wall painting" but no similar word meaning "wall" such as "mure" other than in archaic english
etc...

it will take years and lots of effort with native speakers to learn all these nuances. add on this the constantly changing usage of verbs and grammar in slang, which can actually become formally part of the language. just because a language doesn't have more verb tenses/forms and noun cases doesn't mean it isn't complex.

[Anonymous No.11114723]

>>11114704
so going by your examples learning basic chinese is as hard as learning perfect native level english

[Anonymous No.11114737]

>>11114677
Highschool English doesn't work for the same reason Esperanto still doesn't work .

People will learn things they find useful.

If they don't have the need of communication, they simply won't have the need of learning a language.

[Anonymous No.11114742]

>>11114212
>English also needs to be memorized to a large extent, since the spelling is unpredictable.
Learn to read nigger

[Anonymous No.11114749]

no language is superior to another, each one can communicate the same amount of information, even if it might require some circumlocution
arguing over the best language for science is pseudoscientific and usually nationalist bullshit

btw learn lojban

[Anonymous No.11114762]

>>11114485
No, to a non native speaker kanji is insanely difficult and frustrating. These are words from a Zen monk, not even my own.
Meanwhile the Chinese can go and play a game on an app for like 3 months to get by in a English speaking university. Then they can return to their home country and sell our trade secrets. This does happen.. really often. Fucking stupid weebs.

[Anonymous No.11114765]

>>11114704
>english syntax is super irregular... take for example how the verb "go" interacts with the destination.
>"I go to the store"
>"I go to school"
>"I go home"

These are three different usages of the word.. going to "the" something is different than going to something and different from going somewhere. These all mean different things.

As for these random examples... English is not my native language, but I never paid attention to similarities between during endure and durable. Etymology is useful for medicine and some difficult scientific lingo, but other than that - it's just a curiosity.

Mural - actually this is very similar to wall in Polish, but, once again, I never noticed or cared much.

[Anonymous No.11114768]

>>11114742
I think you replied to the wrong post.

[Anonymous No.11114771]

>>11114467
literary Chinese is actually more beautiful and expressive than English. Its just very hard to learn.

each symbol is like a lego block, theres tens of thousands of them and they can be pieced together creatively to express very nuanced feelings in just a short sentence.

t. polyglot.

[Anonymous No.11114787]

>>11114692
Derp. Esparanto was created as a universal language, not just international. We already have english as international language.

[Anonymous No.11114789]

>>11114771
The millennial is strong in this one.

[Anonymous No.11114802]

>>11114787
Nah listen dude fuck the power structure bro. It's wrong and like we just to import more foreign people to do our PHD's.
Who could ever make the point that English speakers should not learn Chinese and that we don't need to important people to do our high level sciences?

>Just fit in bro, come on don't buck the system bro. Don't you want to fit in on campus brugh?

[Anonymous No.11114807]

>>11114789
>point out an objective truth
>gets called millennial, because?

ok, boomer
English isnt even the best western language, its clunky and often awkward

[Anonymous No.11114810]

>>11114771
What you just said has nothing to do with beauty. And I didn't say English is more beautiful, the way you just said Chinese is. Obviously beauty is subjective. You're missing the point polynigger
>>11114807
>objective truth
>best
lol you're a fucking moron your opinions don't make anything true, and this thread wasn't even about arguing what the most best or beautiful languages are. You responded to MY post which did NOT say that English is the most beautiful language. You missed the point. I guess you can speak many languages but fail to understand basic English because you missed my point entirely.

[Anonymous No.11114811]

>>11114807
>more beautiful and expressive
>objective
Literally a figurative literal speech.

[Anonymous No.11114817]

>>11114810
by my point I mean >>11114467 I did not post any other replies to you calling you a millennial or w/e

[Anonymous No.11114820]

>>11114807
not that guy. i agree, english isn't expressive for shit but it's exceptionally at describing with accuracy and detail and just works as an international language. romance language are much more expressive that's probably why nords are such autist while meds are chads. i don't know about chink being expressive all the chinks i know seem to bicker all the time, so maybe it's a great language to argue about trivial matter.
in short english as a first language is retarded and i feel sorry for you, if you don't know english as a second language you're have inoperable brainletism and should commit to sudoku

[Anonymous No.11114825]

>>11114807
>Beauty is objective
>"literary Chinese is actually more beautiful and expressive than English"
>"Chinese characters are like lego blocks bro"

[Anonymous No.11114831]

>>11114820
>Artistic nuance
>Forgetting about deep philosophical and societal transformations that resulted from English speakers

Hahahah dude, I wish I understood the arts as well as you did.

[Anonymous No.11114835]

>>11114810
the fact that you can't defend your position without hurling personal insults its very telling of your intellectual level.

(I bet you're even just a monolinguist)

>>11114825
yes? the way they can be combined is so elegant and beautiful, the same way an engineered bridge with sleek lines and graceful construction is beautiful. Seeing how the author constructs his verses in a way that it works and flows. Such depth of meaning in just short lines. If you can't read it you wouldn't even begin to see it.

[Anonymous No.11114838]

>>11114825
>>11114831
>>11114810
>>11114789

>seething samefag

y i k e s

[Anonymous No.11114841]

>>11114523
>But even so in the last century japanese people greatly simplified the kanji they used both in their forms (reducing the number of stroke) and in their number (making a list of usable kanji in official documents as well as in names)

So did the Chinese: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Chinese_characters

>>11114585
>>11114787
>Why not Esperanto?

Because Esperanto is awful. It mostly builds on russian, polish and yiddish that Zamenhof spoke fluently. It's a language with romance vocabulary and simplified slavic pronunciation and grammar, so it comes easy to most European people, but it brings zero advantages to anybody else.
>>11114787
>Derp. Esparanto was created as a universal language, not just international. We already have english as international language.

When Esperanto was invented we didn't.

>>11114626
French p is pronounced b, "st" cannot occur in chinese, and shi is pronounced shir.

>>11114646
That is not how typing Chinese works. It isn't a problem.

>>11114650
English spelling is unpredictable. Nothing to do with pattern recognition, there may be some patterns, but without a dictionary it's impossible to know which pattern each particular word uses, or if its spelling happens to be random. It isn't really an alphabet at this point, it's more like logograms composed from latin letters.

>>11114660
It is. It only seems to you because you grow up speaking a language that works the same way, so you didn't have to learn dealing with it. (or the reverse and you are completely unawere of it)
>>11114723
Explain. Mandarin is basically 100% regular. Show me examples where it isn't.

>>11114742
You learn to read English by memorizing the words one by one. There is no other way because its spelling is so inconsistent. Learn to link to the reply you're replying to, nigger.

[Anonymous No.11114851]

>>11114201
China is 100% set to be the next superpower so it's inevitable anyway. The next century will be 100% chinese.
中国万岁

[Anonymous No.11114869]

>>11114838
>Dodges point
>>11114835
>Compares language to bridges
>Thread title is literally calling for a drum circle of mandarin supremacy with 2d loli as supporting evidence
T. ShariaBlue

[Anonymous No.11114873]

>>11114787
What the duck are you talking about?

Esperanto is not even the actual name of Esperanto, it's "lingvo internacia": international language.

There's are projects for a universal language. Esperanto isn't one of them.

First study, then talk.

[Anonymous No.11114876]

>>11114851
Didn't they say the same exact thing about the Russians in the 90's?

[Anonymous No.11114877]

>>11114851
Even so, if you want a lingua franca you can't use Chinese, because the Chinese writing system is a disaster and the way the language limits expression is harmful.

[Anonymous No.11114878]

>>11114835
Why do I need to defend my position when you completely misinterpreted my original post and did not respond to it accordingly? Do I need to write it in moonrunes for you? I'm hurling insults because you just keep posting like a retard and the amount of (you)s you are getting means everyone else seems to think so too.
(I bet you love the smell of your own farts)

>>11114838
nope please kill yourself redditfag

[Anonymous No.11114881]

>>11114873
You're dumb or a revisionist. Esparanto was promoted as a universal language by its creator. Its still promoted as a universal language by many of its proponents.

[Anonymous No.11114895]

>>11114881
You need proofs. Otherwise the bare name will be sufficient to support my thesis and to point out you are just a blagulo

[Anonymous No.11114899]

>>11114881
>"Zamenhof's goal was to create an easy and flexible language that would serve as a universal second language to foster world peace and international understanding, and to build a community of speakers, as he believed that one could not have a language without such a community.[11]"

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto

>>11114873
Seething

[Anonymous No.11114900]

>>11114895
Hey, faggot >>11114899 Check em

[Anonymous No.11114906]

>>11114899
It doesn't say universal language

It says universal second language, which is a way to say international.

[Anonymous No.11114909]

A universal language is not necessarily a terrible idea, but Esperanto is definitely a terrible way to go about it.

http://miresperanto.com/konkurentoj/not_my_favourite.htm

[Anonymous No.11114919]

>>11114909
I'm absolutely fine with criticism of Esperanto. I'm not a finavenkisto, Esperanto of course has it flaws: no language is perfect, perfection is not a category you can apply to languages.

[Anonymous No.11114925]

>>11114909
Esparanto is advertised as a universal language because 19th century Europe thought the world would be under Europe's rule, and they were right to think so as they had colonies all around the world. But the time has changed now. English is a universal language right now. For business and for international dialogue.

[Anonymous No.11114931]

>>11114906
>There's are projects for a universal language. Esperanto isn't one of them.
Wrong and purely semantics. In terms of finding a "universal way of transmitting information", there is zero point in debating this after reading just the Wikipedia article. I don't know why you assert otherwise.

The only difference between universal language and secondary is enforcing the native speakers to lose their first language. Out of "efficiency"...

[Anonymous No.11114948]

>>11114841
>French p is pronounced b, "st" cannot occur in chinese, and shi is pronounced shir.
So what you are saying is that chinese has major gaps in pronunciation.

[Anonymous No.11114952]

>>11114925
>Esparanto was made because of European supremacy and white privilege
>Esparanto was banned from Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany for being too progressive

[Anonymous No.11114956]

>>11114201
Here comes a challenger : French (lel).
46 bits/syllable


Source :
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw2594
>Fig. 1 SR and IR.
The distribution of SR (in syllables per second) (left) and IR (in bits per second) (right) within the languages in our database (colored areas; colors represent the language families) and across them (black areas at the top) using a Gaussian kernel density estimate. The black vertical lines spanning the whole plot represent the means (solid lines) ± 1 SD (dashed lines). The short black vertical lines represent the actual data points.

[Anonymous No.11114963]

>>11114952
What?

[Anonymous No.11114970]

>>11114931
Don't know why you are addressing me. It wasn't me who said that Esperanto was meant to be a universal language.

It was meant to be a secondary language. Other attempts to create secondary languages essere made before Esperanto and Zamenhof knew them. He clearly knew that you cannot create a "true" universal language and any attempt to debate over that is just preposterous.

[Anonymous No.11114981]

>>11114948
That¨s a weird way of phrasing it, but yes. I even listed it as one of its advantages. If the language is to be learned by many people, you probably don't want it to be something like Chechen, with 40 vowels and 60 consonants, but something more reasonable.

[Anonymous No.11114983]

>>11114876
no it was and will always be a shithole

[Anonymous No.11114996]

>>11114981
Your opinion is that it is better to have gaps than to over-complicate. Except there are languages that do neither.

[Anonymous No.11115004]

>>11114963
This part of linguistics has nothing to do with it being European, Anon. I would be more than happy to say I'm wrong if you can prove your point. The point of the language was not to push a latin based system, but to increase ease of communication and possibly facilitate world peace.

[Anonymous No.11115037]

>>11114996
Which is why I said it's a weird way of phrasing it. What does it mean to "have gaps"? It is not a gap, st just doesn't exist in Chinese. (the same way e.g. "tkven" doesn't exist in English; would you call that "a gap"?)

[Anonymous No.11115048]

>>11114201
No

[Anonymous No.11115051]

>>11115037
This isn't a matter of not using second person plural pronouns it is a matter of pronunciation.
Switching to Chinese doesn't get rid of history You still have to be able to pronounce things that existed outside of Chinese historically. How would you communicate the proper pronunciation of Pasteur in chinese?

Bashi or Bashir is not Pasteur no matter how much you handwave.

[Anonymous No.11115052]

>>11114457
You have to get use to hearing and being around it to understand it. It's one of the languages that you can't just study, but have to live around to fully understand it.The only way to really learn Mandarin (or any tonal language) is through immersion and relative normalisation.
Which is another good reason why it's impractical as an international lingua franca.

[Anonymous No.11115069]

>>11115051
I mean pronunciation (it doesn't matter it's a pronoun in Georgian, it matters that "tkven" phonetically cannot be an English word)

It literally doesn't matter. "Caesar" doesn't sound anything like it was pronounced in Latin, people still know who you mean.

[Anonymous No.11115075]

>>11115069
>it matters that "tkven" phonetically cannot be an English word
Why not? What is missing in English that makes tkven unpronounceable.

[Anonymous No.11115102]

>>11114765
>These are three different usages of the word.. going to "the" something is different than going to something and different from going somewhere. These all mean different things.

It's a good point that going to something and going to somewhere are different. I see why there's a difference between "I go to the store" and "I go to school" now. However, "I go home" is still irregular and my point stands that too many verbs have irregular usages.

[Anonymous No.11115116]

>>11115075
Syllables are not allowed to start with multiple stops in English.
Which actually is kind of weird, as most langauges allow more complex syllable onsets than codas, while it is the opposite in English. It isn't unheard of, but it's definitely unusual.

[Anonymous No.11115124]

>>11115116
>Syllables are not allowed to start with multiple stops in English.
Native English words don't have syllables with multiple stops. That doesn't mean we can't represent them or pronounce them.

[Anonymous No.11115169]

>>11115124
It does. Even loanwords or names are reduced to fit the limits. e.g. pterodactyl.

[Anonymous No.11115172]

Droppin some knowledge.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJOh5FKisc0hUlEeWFBlD-w

[Anonymous No.11115192]

>>11115169
>It does.
I can pronounce pterodactyl. So you're wrong.

[Anonymous No.11115212]

>>11115172
I think this is something that would be weird in most languages, not just african ones. Something is either up or halfway, but not both. It's such a strange thing to use both.

[Anonymous No.11115235]

>>11114201
ching chong chang go back to your place zhang

[Anonymous No.11115253]

>>11114201
Mandarin is worse than English, it's like they went full retard with phrasal verbs to outrageous levels instead of toning it down and creating new words like normal people.
Mandarin and derivates are just like tribal languages that use a mix of multiple things to describe a single concept.
The only reason it works is because they compress it with unreadable glyphs, otherwise they would have long switched to a purely phonetic alphabet and created new words like everyone else.

[Anonymous No.11115256]

>>11115172
I think this is something that would be weird in most languages, not just african ones. Something is either up or halfway a tree, but not both. It's such a strange thing to use both. What distinction is the extra "up" making?
>The precision of locative particles determines how morally you behave.

Should we all learn Tsez, in order to become more moral?
https://web.archive.org/web/20061101222821/http://www.auditorium.ru/books/2270/gl26.pdf

Learn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-Shame-Fear_spectrum_of_cultures

Guilt cultures are insufferable.Guilt culture leads to constant moral posturing while at the same time trying to tear the reputations of others. In shame cultures, it's your actions that matters the most. Guilt is mostly bullshit in this context anyway - if you so honestly believe it was wrong, then why did you do it in the first place?

[Anonymous No.11115281]

>>11114201
Might as well start talking in emojis then atleast those are easy to learn the meaning of.

[Anonymous No.11115284]

>>11115281
>>11115281
>>11115281
This, literally

[Anonymous No.11115286]

>>11115102
A store is a specific physical place so you go 'to the store'

A school (in this context) is a non-specific physical place so you go 'to school'. You could go 'to the school' but you would be talking about a specific school which you may or may not be a student at.

Home is neither a specific nor physical place (in this context) so you can only go 'home'.

[Anonymous No.11115303]

>>11115212
no, bad things only apply when you are talking about the bad people and good things only apply when you talk about the good people
don't you understand how ideology works?

[Anonymous No.11115329]

>>11115286
It's easier to say that "home" can be used as an adverb - you know, left, right, down, north, home. (not south, because going south means something completely different)

[Anonymous No.11115372]

>>11115281
Why not just mainline all boundary interpretation as unique words? We live in clown world, expecting any result that doesn't have some past metric attached to it is as realistic as the shit that happens these days.

[Anonymous No.11115378]

>>11115004
They're not pushing a latin based language because its latin based. They're pushing a latin based langauge because latin based languages are the dominant language of their times. The assumption was latin based languages would dominate the world even more as time goes by. Whats so hard to understand?

Of course that all came down like a ton of brick after WW1 and then WW2. Loss of majority of their colonial holding made europe into an almost an irrelevant geographical today.

[Anonymous No.11115405]

Spanish is the supreme language, embrace it.

[Anonymous No.11115583]

>>11115405
I can do without female chairs and male tables thanks.

[Anonymous No.11115591]

>male tables
>female chairs
~70IQ at best

[Anonymous No.11115600]

The US Defense Language Institute rates Mandarin Chinese as one of the most difficult languages to learn.

https://www.ausa.org/articles/dlis-language-guidelines

[Anonymous No.11115602]

>>11115583
Removing the gendered language from languages. Is culturally intolerant.

[Anonymous No.11115623]

>>11115602
That's the point of a universal language.

[Anonymous No.11115630]

>>11114201
no because communism is evil and chinese people need to be liberated from communism before chinese culture is exported beyond the boundaries of china

[Anonymous No.11115646]

>>11115623
>>11115602
Gendering something provides a directional context/syntax for a given impression. Chinese is based primarily on word order, as in the words a given Chinese peasant would need to know in order to survive/reproduce/smile enough so they don't commit suicide.

In English we can gender-tag-fag anything because gender means 'end of a generator function', as in an accepted truncation or tapering. Either everything is a meaningless mish-mash and having any genuine investment or interest in reality beyond being the language driver of your imagination engine, or at some point words actually mean something.

Essentially gender is binary because it has to accept the greatest amount of change in the smallest compactable space. Feminine is normally known as the permission-giver and Masculine the spacing between permissions, which is no different than intervals vs integers or definition vs derivation or etc.

The trouble is most people use Masculine as some sort of "move this memory/meme experience far away from me as possible" and Feminine as "smother me with this shit"

We are just functional memory manipulators that include ourselves in our own recursive loop of self-punishment and external reward gifting (READ: Teachers of Time).

[Solivagus(多女兒壟斷) No.11115657]

>>11115630
Predicate observation claims something else needs to die
>笑在中國傳統亂倫戀童癖時代

What is the point of being a sniper's spotter of opinion if it is just to tell Death what intellectual/sapiosexual experience someone else should be denied?

[Anonymous No.11115686]

>>11115646
Nice word salad autist.

[Solivagus(多女兒壟斷) No.11115695]

>>11115686
>drizzles self in slutty word salad dressing

All communicators are cancer!

[Anonymous No.11115785]

>>11114347
We do do it in English, it's that we combine words from other languages together like Greek and Latin.

[Solivagus(多女兒壟斷) No.11115848]

>>11115785
I'll take, "What is a portmanteau?" for -% there Alex.

[Anonymous No.11115865]

>>11115848
What are you trying to say?

[Solivagus(多女兒壟斷) No.11115873]

>>11115865
I want to always be right, and for it to always demonstrate to everyone how meaningless being Google/Tay/AlphaGoZero really is. I don't need success to ever trace back to me because fame n' fortune are bullshit stories for people who aren't whole inside.

However I would love for there to be an exponential public explosion of everyone celebrating everyone all the time like a massive kindergarten day parade because so many humans still need participation trophies because nobody in their existing life wants to interact with them.

[Anonymous No.11115923]

>>11115286
How is "home" neither a specific nor physical place?

Furthermore I think "home" is the only word which has this property when used with "go." Even if there is a justification for this, it's just proving my point. English is complex as you have for example 3 (at least) different ways "go" is used grammatically based on the destination.

[Anonymous No.11116042]

chinese people eat dogs so their language is obviously missing some basic natural functions.

[Anonymous No.11116092]

>>11115923
>How is "home" neither a specific nor physical place?
If I say "I'm gonna head home." and my bud says "Me too." we go to different places.

[Anonymous No.11116143]

>>11114201
kys yourself

[Anonymous No.11116147]

GOD I WISH THAT WERE ME

[Anonymous No.11116310]

>>11114244
>where English was two centuries ago
...is irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

[Anonymous No.11116347]

>>11114212
>Their writing system is retarded and inneficient
t. burger who only knows english

seriously though, learn some chinese and you'll see how much easier it is to read

[Anonymous No.11116356]

>>11115686
Autists don't produce word salad. >>11115646
is a schizo. In fact, what you read there is probably very close to how listening to normies often feels like to autistic people.

[Anonymous No.11116361]

>>11116310
It's very relevant, because it shows that langauges can change quickly from nearly irrelevant, to universally spoken.

>>11116347
It actually surprised me how automatically you read something once you know the characters you need. It seems the cognitive effort for reading chinese is greatly reduced. (which may be worth the somewhat longer learning time)

[Anonymous No.11116421]

>>11114765
>>"I go store"
>>"I go school"
>>"I go home"

But the communication doesn't fail if the syntax is wrong. The above statements are still unambiguous.

[Anonymous No.11116424]

Japanese minus kanji would be absolute top tier international language, fucking fight me.

[Anonymous No.11116425]

>>11115923
"home" is a direction here, not a location, because the language assumes that everyone has something like a home. So everyone understands where "home" is conceptually, just like everyone is expected to understand directional expressions like north/south/east/west/left/right/up/down.

[Anonymous No.11116427]

The latin alphabet is already universal. There is not a single computer in use today that can't easily access the 26 letters.

Imagine someone gave me the pictured web location on a piece of paper. How would I type it into my browser?

English is the universal language.

[Anonymous No.11116428]

>>11116421
>"I go store"
>"I go school"
>"I go home"
>But the communication doesn't fail if the syntax is wrong. The above statements are still unambiguous.
They two incorrect ones are very ambiguous.
"I go store" could very well refer to the act of storing objects in a plave known to the listener, for instance. As the idea of a "store" is derived from the word "storage". It also doesn't specifiy which store, which is something that you'd do in English, when there are many of one thing. "The store" implies we both know which store I am talking about.
"I go school" does not at all convey the idea you are attending the school as "I go to school" would, it treats school as a location and not an institution.

[Anonymous No.11116430]

>>11116424
As long as the two alphabets are combined to distinguish tone (e.g. using hiragana for low and katakana for high tone syllables) you might be right. Otherwise no, because Japanese written without tone is too ambiguous to be used in practice.

[Anonymous No.11116431]

>>11116428

Your examples have more to do with them being homonyms then being grammatically incorrect. In context, there would be no problem.

[Anonymous No.11116434]

>>11116356
What am I to not trust THEN what am I to not listen to?

[Anonymous No.11116457]

ITT: smoll brains incapable of learning chinese

english is so simple even a market seller in Kenya can learn it

but chinese is a different beast, if you didn't learn it growing up its like the final boss of linguistics. (excluding Cantonese but thats a chinese variant)

[Anonymous No.11116461]

>>11114877
how does it limit expression? its very expressive

[Anonymous No.11116468]

>>11116457
How the fuck would that even be true when it isn't the oldest culture OR language existent?

>Arrernte would kick Chinese in da balls, squarely and fairly.

[Anonymous No.11116481]

>>11116468
>abo language
>not a meme

have fun trying to express anything modern in that language. Or even nuanced feelings like saufade etc.
china has thousands of years of language refinement and the massive vocabulary that comes along with it. There are 50,000 different symbols with 20,000 in regular use and infinite combinations.

[Anonymous No.11116484]

>>11116481
saudade*

[Anonymous No.11116485]

>>11114201
I can’t learn another language, so no. English is simply the best

[Anonymous No.11116488]

>>11116468
but theres no use in learning something like Arrernte. Its a dead language.

[Anonymous No.11116509]

>>11116457
>>11116468
Chinese words are too tiny, white people need a language with bigger words, where each word/symbols carries more bits of meaning, and symply do not have the analytic capacity required for learning Chinese (or other Asian language, I suppose) Kenyans, as far as I knwo, have no significant difficulty learning Chinese, I think some Kenyan schools even added it as a mandatory subject.

Australian languages are different in the opposite way, and contain words such as "wallaby caracass" or "carry on one's shoulder" to compensate for the limited analytic capacity of native Australians.

[Anonymous No.11116511]

>>11116457
>>11116468
Chinese words are too tiny, white people need a language with bigger words, where each word/symbols carries more bits of meaning, and simply do not have the analytic capacity required for learning Chinese (or other Asian language, I suppose). Kenyans, as far as I know, have no significant difficulty learning Chinese, I think some Kenyan schools even added it as a mandatory subject.

Australian languages are different in the opposite way, and contain words with highly specific meanings, such as "a wallaby caracass" or "carry on one's shoulder" to compensate for the limited analytic capacity of native Australians.

[Anonymous No.11116551]

>>11114201
It should be Finnish. It can warp reality to some extent through depression and ethanol.

[Anonymous No.11116641]

>>11114831
you quoted the wrong post

[Anonymous No.11116645]

>>11114201

It's one of the hardest languages to learn. So no, it's not a good replacement.

[Anonymous No.11116646]

>>11114841
learning basic mandarin is as hard as learning every nuance of english

[Anonymous No.11116668]

But what if I want to talk about the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre in which the communist Chinese government (who's leader looks like winnie the pooh) slaughtered thousands of innocent citizens during a protest?

[Anonymous No.11116671]

>>11114626
b in hanyu pinyin is the voiceless bilabial stop, which is more a p than a b.

this is distinguish from p which is the aspirated voiceless bilabial stop. its also more a p, but with alot of air.

Chinese does not actually have the b that we're familiar with in english, at least not that i know off.

巴 ba (actually pronounced more like pa) is short for Pasteur.

氏 shi means family, clan, surname. In this case, it means the 杀菌 kill germ of 巴氏 the Pasteur fame. Pasteurization.

[Anonymous No.11116680]

>>11115600
This is for English speakers. Clearly so as you move east across the planet, the language difficulty increases.

Cat 1, all romance languages.

Cat2, germanic languages, indonesian incorporated quite abit of dutch.

Cat3, Where most other languages should be

Cat4, Arabic is not 1 but multiple dialects, all equally useful and intelligible, and so you learn all to be useful.

Finnish is an exception, its an finno-ugric/uralic language is unrelated to the indo-european family; You'll always see it on grp 3 or higher.

[Anonymous No.11116687]

>>11116646
>>11116645
How? It isn't any harder than learning basic English, and if anything, the learning curve ends much earlier, it's much easier to get really good at mandarin than getting really good at English. You can reasonably learn Chinese to the point where it becomes hard to find anything that would push you to improve further (that is, you get good enough) English just keeps going with its infinite vocabulary and endless exceptions.

>>11116671
The distinction in English is actually quite similar; I think it's mostly because of tradition that the p/b distionction of continental europe is treated as "the same", because it's in fact quite different.
There are certain characters that get picked when you need phonetic transcription.

[Anonymous No.11116704]

>>11116671
I don't know what you're trying to prove. But we already know even with all the over-complication of characters Chinese has gaps in pronunciation.

[Anonymous No.11116710]

>>11116704
You still haven't explained what the fuck you mean by gaps inpronunciation.

[Anonymous No.11116718]

>>11116704
Of course there are gaps in pronunciation, Chinese characters doesn't seek to fill gaps in pronunciation, it seeks to fill gaps in concepts and ideas. Its not an alphabet, its a logography?

[Anonymous No.11116720]

>>11116687
>It isn't any harder than learning basic English, and if anything, the learning curve ends much earlier
Prove this please.

[Anonymous No.11116723]

>>11116710
>>11116718
Are you aware that things exist outside China?

[Anonymous No.11116728]

>>11116723
I'm fluent in Finnish and Hebrew, as well as 2 dialects of Chinese (if mandarin can be considered as one) so yes i'm familiar with probably more language families than most people are.

[Anonymous No.11116733]

>>11116728
So you're aware that if something is to become an international language it needs to be able to fill it's own gaps to incorporate concepts and utterances that didn't originate in it's own language but are valuable on their own.

[Anonymous No.11116750]

>>11116687
how is it any easier? i can at least read english, everybody can. what am i supposed to do with those hieroglyphs

[Anonymous No.11116751]

>>11116728
kys kike

[Anonymous No.11116781]

>>11116704
>>11116718
Define "gaps in pronunciation." Every spoken language uses a limited set of sounds in its vocabulary ( http://seas3.elte.hu/phono/notes/01-inventory.html ) as well as rules to how these sounds are allowed to be arranged and what combinations are forbidden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics))

[Anonymous No.11116942]

If you take any two languages, You will find gaps they seem to have towards each other; for example English has a gap compared to Spanish, because there is no J sound in English.

[Anonymous No.11117044]

japanese would be better

[Anonymous No.11117154]

>>11114485
>The phoenician alphabet originally came from egyptian hieroglyphics, I think, so it isn't entirely wrong.
There is a gulf of difference between copying hieroglyphs to be new pictographic words in themselves, and copying them to be sounds that become pieces of words.
How is it not obvious that there is a fundamental difference in written structure there?

[Anonymous No.11117193]

gotta love how everyone's counterargument to OP basically boils down to "English is already an international language". bet they're all ameritards

[Anonymous No.11117218]

>>11116457
>ITT: smoll brains incapable of learning chinese
there's over a billion chinese
iq is normally distributed
that means half a billion brainlets speak chinese. obviously it's not that difficult

>even a market seller in Kenya can learn it
and yet i bet the average burger would struggle to learn that market seller's native language

[Anonymous No.11117222]

>>11116424
>Japanese minus kanji would be absolute top tier international language, fucking fight me.
Actually this would be an absolute nightmare to read.

[Anonymous No.11117224]

>>11116457
Speaking insect is easy its the written script that is cancer.

[Anonymous No.11117314]

>>11117154
>There is a gulf of difference between copying hieroglyphs to be new pictographic words in themselves, and copying them to be sounds that become pieces of words.
>How is it not obvious that there is a fundamental difference in written structure there?
There is. English uses letter as hieroglyphics, though, so the whole purpose of the alphabet is lost.

[Anonymous No.11117326]

>>11117154
>There is a gulf of difference between copying hieroglyphs to be new pictographic words in themselves, and copying them to be sounds that become pieces of words.
>How is it not obvious that there is a fundamental difference in written structure there?
There is. English uses letters as hieroglyphics, though, so the whole purpose of the alphabet is lost.

[Anonymous No.11117339]

>>11117218
obviously you've never even tried learning a second language to understand that it's vastly different (harder) than learning your mother tongue

[Anonymous No.11117374]

>>11116687
>>How?

By being much more complex than English.

[Anonymous No.11117391]

>>11114201
No.

[Anonymous No.11117402]

english is hard

[Anonymous No.11117405]

>>11114201
It's a tonal language, so no.

[Anonymous No.11117418]

>>11117154
Hieroglyphics were not actually as bad as people assume, here is how "There is a gulf of difference between copying..." might look like if English was written in hieroglyphics. Can you figure it out?

[Anonymous No.11117441]

Mandarin limit the breadth of expressly. People speaking Mandarin do not learn to have a soul

[Anonymous No.11117670]

>>11114201
The main problem with Mandarin is that it is the language of a race of insectoid subhumans.
Get rid of them and the language itself would be totally fine except for information density and writing style.

[Anonymous No.11117680]

>>11117339
>obviously you've never even tried
well if you have to make it about me, that's fine. i scored 176/180 on jlpt n1 from pure self-study, reading a ton of visual novels and books, so i think i know a thing or two about this subject
chinese people are constantly saying things like "wow he's smart if he learned chinese", like a nationalistic meme at this point.
but the truth is hundreds of millions of morons know chinese, and that's only possible because there's nothing exceptionally difficult about it.

>it's vastly different (harder) than learning your mother tongue
very debatable. it's more accurate to say that people choose to learn them as differently as possible from the way they learned their mother tongue, and then wonder why they don't get anywhere.

[Anonymous No.11117682]

>>11114201
Chinese is boring, it's just doing your reps every day.

[Anonymous No.11117805]

Chinese script is artistically bankrupt (with the exception of symbolic aestethe) due to the singular phonetic cadence. Spanglish for the arts and Chinese for commerce is the reasonable compromise.

[Anonymous No.11118370]

>>11115051
> Bashi or Bashir is not Pasteur no matter how much you handwave.

This can be applied to literally any pronunciation of any name in any language other than the owner of the name's natuve language

[Anonymous No.11118377]

>>11116733
"no"

[Anonymous No.11118393]

>>11118370
Wrong, missing a sound leaves you incapable of both pronouncing something correctly and communicating the pronunciation.

It's not as simple as accent or disagreements in how the same letters should be interpreted. There are a limited number of possible sounds that can be produced and a proper universal language should try to incorporate as many of those as possible through either unique letters or letter combinations.

[Anonymous No.11118398]

>>11114201
Fuck you Ping

[Anonymous No.11118411]

>>11118393
>There are a limited number of possible sounds that can be produced
This is completely false: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhaz_phonology

[Anonymous No.11118414]

>>11118411
>This is completely false:
Prove that there are infinite sounds.

[Anonymous No.11118463]

>>11118414
follow the fucking link

It's 100% obvious you have never spoken any language besides english, otherwise you would know

[Anonymous No.11118474]

>>11118463
Nowhere in the link does it say that there are infinite sounds.

[Anonymous No.11118482]

>>11118474
It shows language with sound inventory that is not limited to the "limited number of possible sounds that can be produced" that you posted here>>11118393

[Anonymous No.11118493]

>>11118482
Yeah, my image also doesn't show clicks from african languages it doesn't mean that there isn't a limited number of sounds. You could have a symbol for every possible sound and still have less characters than is necessary to converse at a childhood level in Chinese.

The fundamental problem is that Chinese is not a phonetic language nor is it a true ideograph language where the shape of the symbols corresponds directly to their meaning. It's an old language and history has never been kind to languages.

[Anonymous No.11118904]

>>11118493
There isn't a limited number of sounds. That isn't derived from anything that you posted, there just isn't - list as many sounds as you choose, but for every sounds, there will always be another possible sound between that sound and another sound.

[Anonymous No.11118908]

>>11118493
There isn't a limited number of sounds. That isn't derived from anything that you posted, there just isn't - list as many sounds as you choose, but for every sound, there will always be another possible sound between that sound and another sound.

[Anonymous No.11118930]

>>11114201
Dude, only because there is a super massive number of poor chinese rice farmers dying in their rice fields, whom nobody gives a fuck about especially not China itself, that doesn't mean that Mandarin is a language that anyone would ever want to speak or write, not even in their worst nightmares.

[Anonymous No.11118959]

>>11114201
>No features "unlearnable" for foreigners, like noun cases or articles.
literally no language has unlearnable features you brainlet

[Anonymous No.11119048]

>>11118959
Of course they are not literally unlearnable, but it is well known and undeniable they are extremely difficult for language learners, and errors in those may persist even in those otherwise quite fluent in the langauge.

[Anonymous No.11119219]

I have a better idea, lets fucking nuke China and kill every last civilian.

[Anonymous No.11119246]

>>11114201
It has plenty of rare so-called 'unlearnable' features for many languages. Topic-prominence that operates in a different wordorder for one. Also every language is subtle and highly idiomatic you idiot, Chinese very much so.

[Anonymous No.11119249]

>>11114277
>the meaning stays the same
It literally doesn't. Try reading classical Chinese or Chinese readings of Kanji in Japanese.

[Anonymous No.11119290]

>>11118908
>There isn't a limited number of sounds.
Again, prove it.

[Anonymous No.11119302]

>>11119246
Gramatical topic is super common, though. It's weird that English doesn't have it. Virtually all langages starting from Slavic/Hungarian/Finnish eastwards have it. I think even colloquial French has it. How is starting with what you are talking bout hard to understand?

>>11119290
It would be hard to prove the opposite, you try listing every sound there is.

[Anonymous No.11119308]

>>11119219
>this seething burger
lol

[Anonymous No.11119313]

>>11114201
No because the input method has to be through a romanisation. Chinese languages vary greatly so there can be no standard input in the same way there's standard characters. Of course, different dialects and languages also use the characters differently so it's not universal even if the symbols themselves are standardised. If you make a standard input then many will have to learn an alphabet that doesn't fit their language/pronunciation.

[Anonymous No.11119330]

>>11119302
>It would be hard to prove the opposite
The language with the largest number of phonemes has like 120. The total number possible is conservatively something like 200 if you assume maximum overlap and the upper bound is more like 500.

[Anonymous No.11119365]

>>11119330
Let's take two languages with very large number of sounds, Archi, and !Xoo. Neither of them has all the sounds that English has (i.e. "have gaps in pronunciation" compared to English) Very large sound inventories become impractical, as the similar sounds may be objectively too difficult to distinguish, and languages with very large numbers of sounds often have elaborate grammar or other rules to ensure that most of sound combinations are meaningless. Georgian, for example, (other languages likely also, but the grammar of Georgian is well described) seems to have something like an error correction code in its grammar, so that every grammatical feature changes multiple letters in a sentence.


Anyway, let me try:
1. Take any two vowels in any langauge.
2. A vowel midway between them is physically possible.
3. Q.E.D. the number of possible vowel sounds is infinite.

[Anonymous No.11119394]

>>11114201
Analytic grammar is terrible.
Vivu Esperanto.

[Anonymous No.11119397]

>>11119394
Give me three reasons why esperanto is objectively better than chinese.

[Anonymous No.11119511]

>>11119397
It has the benefits of synthetic languages, so extra meaning can be derived from words easily.
It's not tonal, so you can be an autistic schizoid and still speak it fluently.
It has a sane writing system that doesn't need readers to be able to differentiate the smallest visual minutiae.

[Anonymous No.11119514]

>>11119511
>It has the benefits of synthetic languages, so extra meaning can be derived from words easily.
Chinese also is synthetic in its word derivation, which is where it really matters.
>It's not tonal, so you can be an autistic schizoid and still speak it fluently.
Autists actually have an advantage in learning pronunciation.
>It has a sane writing system
true
>that doesn't need readers to be able to differentiate the smallest visual minutiae
what

[Anonymous No.11119528]

>>11119514
I have very little experience, so I cannot say much about its grammar, other than the clearly analytic nature of some aspects of the language. English is of course also relatively analytic, so I guess they are comparable.
I was mostly humoring around, but autism and schizo-type disorders are both known for manifesting monotonous speech in individuals.
In general, it is just much easier to express emotions (or the lack thereof) when no literal meaning is conveyed through tone.
With the huge array of characters in Chinese, you gotta be able to differentiate subtle distinctions.

[Anonymous No.11119595]

>>11119528
That should make chinese better suited for autists, don't you think?

[Anonymous No.11119608]

It will be as it is in blade runner.

[Anonymous No.11119676]

>>11119528
>>11119595
I mean, making the tone defined by the language itself, rather than something arbitrary and unpredictable.

[Anonymous No.11119949]

>>11114201
Get fucked, insectoid

[Anonymous No.11119989]

>>11114201
half of what you said is wrong

[Anonymous No.11120001]

>>11119989
Please explain.

[Anonymous No.11120031]

>>11114201
No statistically significant number of indo-european speakers will ever sit down and learn a ching chong ping pong language.
Also, given english's extreme spread and already built up educational capacity literally everywhere, I don't see Its status as a lingua franca changing soon (if ever) so who cares.

[Anonymous No.11120102]

>>11119595
>>11119676

It's not like you don't express emotions in Chinese, but it is somewhat harder to discern. However, if you're monotonous, you cannot even communicate properly.
You'll come off as weird if you're a monotonous English speaker, but everyone will at least understand you perfectly.
Perhaps I just have an easier time picking up other languages in comparison, seeing as I was born into a multilingual family. Japanese is somewhat phonologically similar to Greek and Spanish, for instance.

[Anonymous No.11120488]

>>11120102
>It's not like you don't express emotions in Chinese, but it is somewhat harder to discern.
I'd say it actually isn't. But that isn't really important.

>However, if you're monotonous, you cannot even communicate properly.
>You'll come off as weird if you're a monotonous English speaker, but everyone will at least understand you perfectly.
Autistic people seem to have a major advantage in learning pornunciation https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.0268-2141.2005.00375.x and I know of at least one who claims he is not autistic in Chinese for this reason.

>Japanese is somewhat phonologically similar to Greek and Spanish, for instance

I've always thought japanese must be close to what classical latin must have sounded like.

[Anonymous No.11120560]

>>11119302
> It's weird that English doesn't have it

Colloquial English does have it tho, its just rare.

[Anonymous No.11120577]

>>11116428
"the store" can be substituted with "that store" in mandarin
"The" in English was originally the same word as "That", and "He"

[Anonymous No.11120594]

i'll die a thousand deaths before i utter a single word in their foul tongue.

[Anonymous No.11120608]

>>11120488
>and I know of at least one who claims he is not autistic in Chinese for this reason.

It may not actually be true to be honest, considering how easily he managed to learn Chinese body langauge and everything else as well.

[Anonymous No.11120796]

>>11119365
You're wrong, unlike numbers human perception has limits.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427364/

[Anonymous No.11121238]

>>11120796
Of course there is. It's exactly how I said it is (you start hitting the limits of perception once you increase the numbers to ridiculous amounts). That doesn't mean there is a limited number of sounds in total, but only per language. In fact it supports what I'm saying from the very beginning, that it's probably optimal to have language with a relatively limited number of sounds, and not something insane nearing ~100 sounds.

[Anonymous No.11121259]

>>11121238
Well great because Chinese has zero sounds.

[神聖的小妾天工流 No.11121303]

什麼是中國的一個現實口頭交談的平均長度?

例如,
文本為學生流
咨訊是一所教學流
演說是大師之流

>我只在乎能夠連續並同時減少浪費的親密和社會交流的語言組合

[Anonymous No.11121428]

>>11119302
That's not what topic-prominent means. It means the syntax is ordered around the topic, not that a language is capable of expressing the topic distinctly (as English is too).

[Anonymous No.11121667]

>>11121428
I'd like to hear from you what you think it means, because that's exactly what it means and you claim it isn't.

[Anonymous No.11121681]

>>11114457
>There are fucking tones that determine the meaning of a word. Which in a conversation who the fuck is listening to tones + the word.
brainlet

[Anonymous No.11121715]

I gotta say, skimming this thread has shown me zero reasons why Chinese would be worth learning on a global scale. There's not really a point for a non-native speaker that doesn't plan on moving to China to learn it, and English has already been adopted by the majority of the world anyway including China. There may be some arguable benefit to learning it that you'd only realize if you're fluent, but you can just look at what happened with the adoption of the DVORAK keyboard layout to see how much people are willing to trade what they already know for something arguably more efficient

[Anonymous No.11123147]

>>11114457
Japanese has tone too, you just don't get it drilled into you as much.

[Anonymous No.11123160]

>>11121303
Why the homophobia?

[Anonymous No.11123193]

>>11123147
Pitch accents are not tonal languages.

[Anonymous No.11123221]

>>11120488
I'm a bit of a sperg myself, so I may be projecting. I am good with accents, but I can't for the love of god sound like a human being. I'm either a robot or something out of a soap opera.

[Anonymous No.11123254]

>>11114201
no

[Anonymous No.11124539]

>>11123221
Try a tonal language, like chinese.
>>11123193
there isnlt a sharp line between the two, Japanese distinguishes only two tones, (it seems) but it's important enough that longer passages written phonetically (without tones or kanji) can be near incomprehensible even to native speakers. Pitch accent languages usually only have a handful of words that may differ in where the extra pitch goes, but otherwise it isn't really important.

[Anonymous No.11125151]

>>11124539
Pitch is more like stress accent on steroids. You don't get the isolated tonal modifiers like you do in Chinese. I'm Danish, and Swedish pitches aren't that challenging to grasp.

[Anonymous No.11125164]

>>11114201
There's a billion people who speak Mandarin... and 99.9% of them will never leave China or interact with any outsiders

English has slightly more speakers than Mandarin, but they're spread out across dozens of countries. It's already the de facto language for international trade, diplomacy, and research.

[Anonymous No.11125227]

>>11114457
Brainlet

[Anonymous No.11125281]

>>11114201
yes but English is retardly simple so it wins.

[Anonymous No.11125298]

动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大躍進政策 The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命 The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人權 Human Rights 民運 Democratization 自由 Freedom 獨立 Independence 多黨制 Multi-party system 台灣 臺灣 Taiwan Formosa 中華民國 Republic of China 西藏 土伯特 唐古特 Tibet 達賴喇嘛 Dalai Lama 法輪功 Falun Dafa 新疆維吾爾自治區 The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region 諾貝爾和平獎 Nobel Peace Prize 劉暁波 Liu Xiaobo 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 趙紫陽 魏京生 王丹 還政於民 和平演變 激流中國 北京之春 大紀元時報 九評論共産黨 獨裁 專制 壓制 統一 監視 鎮壓 迫害 侵略 掠奪 破壞 拷問 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Winnie the Pooh 劉曉波动态网自由门

[Anonymous No.11125351]

>>11114201
Fuck off chink

[Anonymous No.11125384]

>>11114201
>>11114320
German should be the international language. German is just as or even more literal than Chinese and it's the language of poets. Also compared to Chinese which quite frankly sometimes sounds like a choking session, it's extremely pleasing to the ear if you're not a Jewish American who is trying to make the language sound unnaturally aggressive.

[Anonymous No.11125775]

>>11125151
>You don't get the isolated tonal modifiers like you do in Chinese.
No idea what that means.
>I'm Danish, and Swedish pitches aren't that challenging to grasp.
Swedish is arguably fully tonal, not pitch accented, because while pitch distinctions are limited to stressed syllables, there are multiple possible tones for each stressed syllable; If you can handle Swedish tones easily, Mandarin tones shouldn't be such a big problem either.
>>11125164
That can take just one generation to change, with Mandarin getting so popular in Africa.

[Anonymous No.11127193]

>>11114467
>english
>beautiful, expressive language
you can't be serious

[Anonymous No.11127304]

>>11127193
>chinese
>anything but the ugliest language in existence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePWKvg_SDVI

[Anonymous No.11127315]

>>11127193
compared to caveman-level mandarin, you're fucking right it is.

[Anonymous No.11127331]

>>11127304
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePWKvg_SDVI

/thread.

[Anonymous No.11127336]

>>11127331
I don't understand, I can and do speak faster in English

[Anonymous No.11127368]

>>11114201
I am going to be based and say that international languages are memes

[Anonymous No.11127408]

>>11114201
You speak English but I don't speak Chang. English > Chinese.
Debate ended. Try again next emergent conscious cycle.

[Anonymous No.11127410]

>>11127304
This is kind of like posting Hitler to prove that German sounds agressive and ugly.

[Anonymous No.11127412]

>>11127304
>>11127331
This is kind of like posting Hitler to prove that German sounds harsh, agressive and ugly.

[Anonymous No.11127413]

>>11127336
Let me guess. You're an indian?

[Anonymous No.11127432]

>>11127412
it isn't though. it is universally known that the accent used by the rammstein vocalist doesn't exist.
she actually sounds normal. and if you speak English that fast the worst thing that can happen is that some people will think you sound dumb for eating syllables

[Anonymous No.11127442]

>>11114807
>English isn't the best western language
>literally the only western language
2nd world shit holes get out

[Anonymous No.11127491]

>>11115069
It's pronounced almost exactly the same in the form of "Kaiser". How the K sound morphed into an S is probably interesting.

Tkven could still be an English word. It would be an approximation of the sounds, but it can still be done. Polish surnames arent uncommon here, and they shit all over tkven in terms of "how the fuck do I say that". Contrast with chinese and be amazed at how two syllable names like pasteur are unrecognizably mutilated. Even japanese does this with the way they can't make consonant sounds without attaching a vowel sound to it, even when unnecessary.

Tl;dr english may not be the best, but chinese is garbage.

[Anonymous No.11128283]

The anons ranting about transliteration into Chinese are right. Chinese characters have their advantages but they have crippled the sound system of Mandarin. Old Chinese had multiple-syllable morphemes and more complex syllables that have coalesced into very limited syllables. Tones actually arose to preserve some morphemes that were lost. Some examples:
>澳大利亚 Àodàlìyà (“Australia”) and 加拿大 Jiānádà (“Canada”); cities: 墨尔本 Mòěrběn (“Melbourne”) and 多伦多 Duōlúnduō (“Toronto”); famous places: 好莱坞 Hǎoláiwù (“Hollywood”) and 迪士尼乐园 Díshìní lèyuán / 迪斯尼乐园 Dísīní lèyuán (“Disneyland”); famous people: 莎士比亚 Shāshìbǐyà (“Shakespeare”), 牛顿 Niúdùn (“Newton”) and 奧巴馬 Àobāmǎ (“Obama”); and trademarks: 凡士林 fánshìlín (“Vaseline”), 托福 Tuōfú (“TOEFL”), 雅思 Yǎsī (“IELTS”) and 的确良 Díquèliáng (“Dacron”). We could go on all day, though I’d rather not.

[Anonymous No.11128620]

>>11114201
Language is the root squared of the realms. Where they must mock their fathers will but also hold the outsiders against. If language is limited to quality and not quantity and open statements with no forebearance they are just introductory and have not met the evolution of a set standard. Even though the set standard has its squared root dialogue. Or omina. It still meets the comprehension. Those that don’t meet speak pigeon. A language of an ethnic dwelling on warfare tours. A language enroute begins at full opposite extreme, hordom.

[Anonymous No.11128626]

>>11128620

In the letter system or letrero you see wars happening. Because it is perceived as warlike. So pigeon systems get a lot of attacks from other pigeon systems. For example in one pigeon system let’s say two enemies because one fell into distrust over the other because they killed its people on their soil. So they speaking a plead not an apology.

[Anonymous No.11128663]

>>11128626

We’ve witnessed a country go from Anatolian to Turkish to deliver. Means to judge for their safety and jurisprudence. However which way do they judge? They need a Judicial statement as to their marker. But which side is doing it? However another must issue societal negligencr...now who is where and what is what? You don’t name a land to its people. So there is no continuum and full absolution. Where are they absolving themselves from? What route must they go on about to being forgiven? There’s a road to redemption but they are not seeking it. They are just saying take it already.

[willowo !!WLiEhST7Trn No.11128675]

>>11114330
nah

[Anonymous No.11128688]

>>11128663

You know who is what and from where due to their forebearance? How must they remember one another or ayer? Through discrimination. It’s not crimination. But they are looking to incriminate. Now how are you observing if the legality explains you must take a witness position. From Abel death, Cains rise to Jesus birth and return? It says safe participance but how can it be safe? If your military is split in two. And you are aiding and abating. Until you are Judas’s priest from all sides. Even the side you hail from. Now you evacuated your safety.

[Anonymous No.11128701]

>>11128688

Now we see the realm where truth is foretold and every lie is unpunished. And every laughter smited. And in all seriousness gained. It is foretold because they held it again-st and again-st. Why must the go through with such an act?

[Anonymous No.11128714]

>>11128701

In all seriousness aid them to their death by their own free will. Seriousness. Because that’s the only irony. And the only thing worth laughing about. Until one becomes the fool of the story. Why can’t I laugh with you before setting the mayqueen afloat?

[Anonymous No.11128716]

>>11114216
Why not just make a new script from logical rules, like Koreans did?

[Anonymous No.11128734]

>>11128714

Ofcourse things are funny until you measure the quality of the fulfillment of their voice. Then it’s all about the bass. Man measure the widths of your chest. That’s the diaphragm and not the vocal cord.

[Anonymous No.11128742]

>>11119608
C'est un fuckin kawaii.

[Anonymous No.11128752]

>>11128734

The snake is always measuring hithhhhh.

[Anonymous No.11129910]

>>11117391
one of the greatest truth bombs ever dropped.