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File: 307 KB, 1280x670, Lunar_Thorium_concentrations.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10822168 No.10822168 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

I'm a big believer in thorium and Molten Salt Reactors (MSR).
The fact thorium was readily available on the surface of the moon a long time before humans reached it is just another reason to develop the reactor and materials further. The MSR experiment at Oak Ridge National Laboratory in the 60's proved its working priniple and the need for energy on space stations must be the final push for making it a reality here on Earth as soon as possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDqCpfVwdP4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHO1ebNxhVI

>> No.10822176
File: 39 KB, 400x384, Msr.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10822176

>>10822168
MSR schematics

>> No.10822684

Great, now invent a material that isn't corroded by the molten salt.

>> No.10822705

>>10822168
It's not so much the meltdowns that scare people, or even the radioactive fallout and radiation, its the deadly tumors.

>> No.10822917

>>10822684
Copenhagen Atomics has a test loop ready for non-radioactive FLiNaK salt demonstrated here:
>26:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaeK9u0pWVA&t=26m30s

The reactor ORNL ran were up for 4 years. Yes, there is still work to be done but it's worth the effort as it's running at atmospheric pressure without the risk of hydrogen or steam explosions as is the case with LWRs. Once the molten salt loses moderation it cools and solidifies back to salt crystals again. I don't think the issue with corrosion has been a focus for material developers but there are methods for monitoring the state of pipes without disconnecting them with sound. This reactor have been literally forgotten for 50 years, of course it's not developed fully.

>> No.10822951

>>10822705
It's unmotivated fear fueled by renewable hippies that totally disregard the environmental impact of mining rare earths for solar cells and magnets for wind turbines.
Renewable enegy might warm a single household but nuclear will be necessary to carry the masses of people we have reached with the stored energy from petroleum fuels... It's time to educate people about the different kinds of reactors and the risk and benefints of each.

>> No.10822968

>>10822705
For me it's fallout first and the garbage that piles up as a close second.
So in space stations or on the moon where we can just throw the garbage somewhere far away from earth crust activities, digging humans and groundwater it's much less of a problem.

>> No.10822969
File: 47 KB, 400x567, 1559998245391.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10822969

>>10822168
THHHHOOOOOOOOORRRRIUUUUM
POOOOOWER !!!!

>> No.10822975
File: 6 KB, 596x256, Deaths-per-TWh-of-power-produced-vs.2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10822975

>>10822705
Just look at the numbers...

>> No.10822984

>>10822951
>totally disregard the environmental impact of mining rare earths for solar cells and magnets for wind turbines
This though. Some just want to change close-by danger and dirt for danger and dirt on the other side of the world but it's always been like that.
My favourite scenario would be reviving public transportation using overhead wiring or comparable things. For inner-city transport that would solve a lot of problems at once.

>> No.10823000

>>10822975
>that coal
Ecologically speaking nuclear might be best as well expecially if meltdowns happen.
But regarding possible future human generations the waste problem is horrifying.

>> No.10823005
File: 232 KB, 630x435, 8476824.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10823005

>>10822968
Check the first talk linked in OP, your fear lacks grounds...
When the fuel is dissolved it can be cleaned online and valuable resourced extracted for medical applications.
The garbage that is left only needs to be stored for a few hundred years as opposed to tousands of years with solid fuel pellets. With MSR we can even reburn the radioactive stockpiles!

>> No.10823007

>>10822168
>Give me VC funding I won't waste it at all.
Sounds like a great Idea

>> No.10823008

>>10822176
This looks so simple. They could retrofit a coal power plant with very little effort, since half of it is already the same thing.

>> No.10823067
File: 62 KB, 600x900, NEAT-62-Figure-1-n2-twr1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10823067

>>10823008
...and put the construction workers of these KINO cooling tower out of work??
Nonono, nuclear must be BIG and DANGEROUS otherwise anyone could produce energy.

>> No.10823113

>>10823067
>can burn much more of the fuel
>can be used to burn other spent nuclear fuel (of which something like only 1% is used to make any power)
>spent fuel is much less dangerous

This is such a logical step forward. The US could have dozens of functioning reactor designs for the same amount of money they spent on a fighter jet

>> No.10823393

>>10823113
The MSR has been built small enough to power an airplane as mentioned in this old film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyDbq5HRs0o

>> No.10823868

>>10822951
renewables are a ridiculous, low EROEI technology being pushed by the infinite growther cult not to fight climate change but because fossil fuels are literally running out, and so is nuclear

>> No.10823943
File: 50 KB, 600x600, 1560027110649_out2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10823943

>>10822684
Clamped mindset.

>> No.10824069

>>10822951
Most solar panels don't need rare earths, I think.

>> No.10824213

>>10824069
Even if the production of solar cells was environment friendly VAST areas of land still needs to be covered and the skies cloud free. It's an optimists choice of power, for those who never bring an umbrella because the weather is fine leaving the house.
>>10823868
>because fossil fuels are literally running out, and so is nuclear
No, natural occuring uranium-235 is running out. Thorium is 3 times as common as tin!
MSR is a thermal breeder, meaning it produces heat and more fissile materials.
It's critical to start capturing CO2 and that requires energy or huge areas as well. Cutting down forests and letting toxic algea bloom instead is an environmental danger as well.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2018/05/23/if-solar-panels-are-so-clean-why-do-they-produce-so-much-toxic-waste/

Nuclear is the future, thorium and the MSR makes it ALOT safer!

>> No.10824355

I's not good idea to mine on the moon.

I would focus on thermal and classical mechanics, there are loops to have energy different way.

>> No.10824409

>>10822975
How do you want to prove radioactive death?

>> No.10824934

>>10824355
>I's not good idea to mine on the moon.
It could be, to develop the technology to make survival on Mars possible. Making use of local resources is key to a sustainable colony.
>>10824409
I don't know anything about the methodolgy behind those numbers to be honest. Given the education needed to mine and manufacture nuclear fuel and the amount of energy produced from it doesn't seem unplausible. Coal mines is prone to collapse and wind turbine maintenace is very riskfull for a small amount of energy.

>> No.10825379

>>10824213
EROEI is obviously a concept that is beyond your mental capacity, money priest

>> No.10825437

>>10825379
Your grand "mental capacity" of abbreivations sure put me in my seat!

>> No.10825620

>>10824355
is it the moon or mars that's heavily thorium deprived, I remember one of them just didn't have any

>> No.10825633
File: 8 KB, 428x301, he3 energy.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10825633

>>10822168
We'll be mining and utilizing He3 for fusion reactors on the Moon by 2067. Screencap this, I'm from the future.

>> No.10825636

>>10825633
there's not enough there to matter

>> No.10825646

>>10825636
Enough to power the stepping stone in building the infrastructure to extract He3 from Jupiter. Completion of that venture won't be finished in our time, neither was it close to complete in my time.

>> No.10825649

>>10825646
nope, extracting He3 from the moon will never be energy-positive
thorium is a much better plan

>> No.10825657

>>10825649
I'm not discounting thorium, both and more will be required to build the lunar mining infrastructure.

>> No.10825661

>>10825657
I don't think you understand just how little helium 3 is on the moon
it's like saying that extracting the gold from your toenails will make you rich

>> No.10825662

>>10824409
Let's chalk up "If they worked in a nuclear power plant for any significant period of time or were present in the event of a disaster and then developed any kind of cancer at any point in their life" as death as a result of nuclear power. That way, there will always be quite a large overestimate and it'll still be lowest number

>> No.10826125

>>10825649
>>10825657
>the moon
>lunar mining
There's no oil, coal or atmosphere that needs $solutions on the moon, why even go there?
Learn your Money Returned On Money Invested 101!

>> No.10826313

>>10825437
you and your ilk are blinded by greed

>> No.10826415

>>10826313
>greed
By making energy and clean water available to every nation? It's time to end to the need for people to flee to McDonald's nations to have their human rights met.

>> No.10826462

>>10825633
Why go all the way to the moon when you can just get He3 from H3 production from LWR on earth?

>> No.10826531

>>10822684
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment#Results
>the corrosion of Hastelloy-N was negligible

>> No.10826539

>>10826462
>why
The Earth might get hit by an asteroid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_asteroid_close_approaches_to_Earth_in_2019

>> No.10826828
File: 3 KB, 124x124, citation-needed.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10826828

>>10822168
>thorium was readily available on the surface of the moon
[citation needed]

>> No.10827206

>>10826539
That has nothing to do with He3 though

>> No.10827227
File: 507 KB, 1280x834, But where are we goint to put enough solar panels to power a city.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10827227

>>10824213
>Even if the production of solar cells was environment friendly VAST areas of land still needs to be covered and the skies cloud free.

>> No.10827240

>>10825662
>Let's chalk up "If they worked in a nuclear power plant for any significant period of time or were present in the event of a disaster and then developed any kind of cancer at any point in their life" as death as a result of nuclear power.
Isn't this the same logic used against renewables?

>> No.10827402

>>10827227
It looks like real life Sim City.

>> No.10827604
File: 1.33 MB, 1010x923, 20120301111934!MSRE_Diagram.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10827604

>>10827227
I doubt the area of a parking lot provide enough solar power to recharge a car, even if it's a clear day.
The energy density of batteries is awful compared with gas, not to mention hydrogen.
>inb4 solar roadways
Grow up and realize "greens" just wants to sell you shit.

>> No.10827914
File: 222 KB, 1062x800, NAMrad_Th_let.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10827914

>>10823000
>if meltdowns happen
If you had cared to watch the clips in OP you'd learn that the MSR doesn't have meltdowns.

>>10823007
It seems like the west is passing this opportunity to China or India. It might be to make sure humankind reaches for the stars together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BybPPIMuQQ

>>10824213
>MSR is a thermal breeder, meaning it produces heat and more fissile materials.
"Thermal breeder" means the neutron radiation is in the "thermal spectrum" and not the "fast spectrum", the name has nothing to do with heat generation.
>>10825620
You can see in OP that the moon has been hit by thorium containing asteroids, see picrel for comparison. It's mineable concentration.

>> No.10827991

>>10826539
>The Earth might get hit by an asteroid.
Unless that asteroid was going to render Earth as dead and crystalline as the Moon, the Earth will always be the most human-friendly environment in the solar system.

>> No.10827998

>>10827604
>I doubt the area of a parking lot provide enough solar power to recharge a car,
Is this the power of the cum brain?

>The energy density of batteries is awful compared with gas, not to mention hydrogen.
Wow, why did no one else think of this one? Oh yeah.. the problems..

>> No.10828000

>>10825379
EROEI if a nuclear breeder reactor is as good as fossil fuels

>> No.10828484

>>10827998
>Is this the power of the cum brain?
I took your image of the parking lots as an implication of that surface being enough to recharge the cars and possible provide energy for households and industries...
Renewables are not feasible! If not nuclear then prepare for a massive increase in costs for energy and everything produced with energy.
MSR is the best reactor. Now you know!

>> No.10828488

>>10828484
>I think your wrong
Could have just said that.

I disagree by the way.

>> No.10828505

>>10828488
Check your numbers then, it's not hard. The production of solar panels is toxic and they are made in China.
Start from >>10822168.

>> No.10828512
File: 139 KB, 988x1059, 1554249513218.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10828512

>tfw you will pay tax for your shadow in the future

>> No.10828516

>>10822168
>>readily
at 12 ppm concentration, call it readily available is an exercise in mental gymnastics. Also the moon is 20% silicon. That's right. Not ppm, but PERCENT. Now that's readily available. You could easily cover the whole fucking moon in solar cells
>>need for energy in space stations
ISS uses solar power. If you are far enough from earth, say geostationary. You basically don't need any batteries as the earth only eclipses your panels only 72 minutes each equinox. Nuclear reactors are now a liability orbiting the Earth because we've got gamma ray telescopes up there now and the radiation they release interferes with them.

>> No.10828523

>>10828516
Thorium is easily extracted. As the 95th element it's quite heavy and ends up in the bottom if shaken in a container, if there were a market for it it would be isolated today looking for other elements.

>> No.10828534

>>10828516
>You could easily cover the whole fucking moon in solar cells
How? Think throu your answer. On Mars solar is less than 50% as effective as on the Earth... Watch the YouTube links!!!!

>> No.10828545

>>10828523
Anon I don't think you understand what parts per million means. 12 ppm means that to get 1 ton of thorium you need to process 83,333 tons of regolith to get the thorium and that's if things are 100% efficient.
>>shaking
bullshit. It's gonna be integrated into the lunar regolith. Also, the extraction processes we use on earth aren't readily applicable to the moon because water and hydrogen(necessary for acids) are rare on the moon.
>>10828534
>>Mars
We're talking about the Moon. Insolation is higher on the Moon than on Earth because Earth's atmosphere blocks some light.
>>watch the youtube
I ain't giving any stupid youtubers money. Fuck youtube. Text and papers only!

>> No.10828566

>>10828545
>1 ton of thorium
How much do you need?
Hint: See the first presentation in the first post!

>> No.10828595

>>10828545
Just bring a ball of thorium from Earth then, it's a lot easier than bringing a shit ton of inefficient solar panels which gets dusty and are close to impossible to produce on the moon or Mars.
Your bait is lazy. Give up renewables. Thorium will carry us until fusion is in production.

>> No.10828598

>>10822975
Read something interesting about coal a while ago, coal is a little bit radioactive, nothing that would harm you, even if you warmed your house with coal your entire life.
But humanity combined is burning so much coal every year that the combined nuclear disasters, waste, nuke testing is nothing compared to what coal burning pushes in the air every year.

>> No.10828796
File: 71 KB, 949x762, lunarsolarpowerpaver.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
10828796

>>10828566
That's not the point. The point is that the concentration of thorium is VERY LOW. This makes it difficult to extract.
>>See the first presentation in the first post!
TEXT AND PAPERS ONLY!
>>10828595
>> bringing a shit ton of inefficient solar panels
you don't have to because you can make them with materials available on the Moon.
>>which gets dusty
with a couple of charged wires you can capture all of the electrostatically charged moon dust. In addition, the laser retroreflectors on the moon have dimmed by about 90% over a FIFTY YEAR time period, so we need not clean our solar panels all that much.
http://stochasticscientist.blogspot.com/2010/04/dimming-moon-reflectors.html
>>are close to impossible to produce on the moon
They are not. In fact the Moon's high vacuum environment makes producing them easier than on earth. We can pave solar cells directly on to the surface of the Moon. We can melt regolith to make a nice flat surface, vacuum deposit aluminum, deposit silicon, dope, put on the top electrode by vacuum depositing calcium, aluminum or iron through a mask, and them depositing a layer of TiO2 for an antireflection coating(although we could also use AlO_x or SiO_x). We perform molten oxide electrolysis of the regolith to obtain a ferrosilicon melt. We extract the silicon from the melt through repeated vacuum distillation. In the process we also get iron. We might even be able to get aluminum from molten oxide electrolysis too, barring that we should be able to extract the alumina from the regolith and carry out a process such as Hall–Héroult to get aluminum. We get the TiO2 from ilmenite available on the moon which we reduce with hydrogen. For P-type dopants it's best to ship them from earth or somewhere else because we only micrograms per meter^2. We can get phosporous or sulfur from lunar regolith
http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/library/meetings/annual/jun00/433Ignatiev.pdf
http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/433Ignatiev.pdf

>> No.10828807

>>10822975
Give it time

>> No.10830323

>>10828796
Nice solar moon buggy, have you try it out yourself on the moon!
>>10828807
>Give it time
Anon... what are you planning?

>> No.10830576

>>10828796
>The point is that the concentration of thorium is VERY LOW. This makes it difficult to extract.
You are wrong, it's easily sifted as it's heavy...

>> No.10830658

>>10830576
do you have a single fact to back that up? It's likely uniformly distributed in lunar regolith grains. Since all the grains have more or less the same density, sifting would be useless.

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