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/sci/ - Science & Math

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10755939 No.10755939 [Reply] [Original]

Why do they use brain scans to diagnose Alzheimer's disease but not schizophrenia? Is it because schizophrenia is fake?

>> No.10756521

>>10755939
It's not useful for making the diagnosis. There are certain anatomical changes a doctor can find on a brain scan or MRI that can help to make the diagnosis, but that's not the case with schizophrenia.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23612107
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6371794

>> No.10756527

schizophrenia is a behavioral diagnosis. a diagnosis is made by a trained, experienced clinician using "validated" criteria and direct observation of behavior. it's the same for autism spectrum disorder, depression, and any other psychological disorder.

brain imaging is more useful for alzheimer's because it produces an unmistakable change in brain structure, but you still need pre-post to see that change in the first place.

>> No.10756529

>>10755939
"they" used a brainscan on me and found nothing. The doctors decided to diagnoze me with schizotypal disorder anyway

>> No.10756539

>>10756529
Take your meds you fucking schizo.

>> No.10756543

>>10756521
I'm pretty sure this is false. Don't people with schizophrenia have higher gray matter degradation? They should be able to see that in a brain scan.

>> No.10756544

>>10755939
Because not everyone with brain abnormality has schizophrenia and not all people with schizophrenia have brain abnormalities.
So it’s a diagnostic tool, not THE diagnostic method for the disease.

>> No.10756548

>>10755939
ITs fake like how diabetes is fake because lol just don’t eat sugar for 30 years nonstop.

Aka it develops due to stress, poor emotional management, and has a hereditary component.

>> No.10756563

>>10756543
>Don't people with schizophrenia have higher gray matter degradation?
That's because of the anti-psychotic medication.

>> No.10756568

>>10756563
>t. schizo

>> No.10756571

>>10756543
To be useful, the anatomical findings on the image must be related to the disease and not to other unrelated causes/normal variations. We are talking about a diagnostic test (in this case CT scan or MRI) with enough sensitivity (catching all the positive cases) and especificity (catching all the negative cases) to be useful.
See >>10756544

>> No.10756575
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10756575

>>10755939
Schizophrenia is not diagnosed through any physical findings and is a psychiatric condition, not a neurological condition. It's purely diagnosed on the basis of a psychiatrist's opinion of whether or not a patient displays enough of the behaviors in their checklist to count. Studies have been done to try to show relationships between that diagnosis and physical attributes of the brain, but none of this is used for actual diagnosis.
You can't use brain scans for actual diagnosis even if you wanted to because there isn't enough difference between the brain features associated with that diagnosis and the brain features associated with distinct other psychiatric diagnoses.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/hbm.23486

>> No.10756577

>>10756568
Say whatever you want psychiatrists are ABUSIVE fuck them. You can't fucking infect me with your meds. There are alternative treatments out there in Finland.

>> No.10756584

>>10756568
Schizo or not, he's not wrong.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3476840/..
>Antipsychotic treatment also had a significant influence on brain volumes even after accounting for the potential confounds of the other 3 variables. More antipsychotic treatment was associated both with generalized tissue volume reduction involving multiple subregions and with a specific increase in putamen. The other 2 variables, severity of illness and substance abuse, had minimal or no effects. Progressive brain volume changes during the lifelong course of schizophrenia, including GM and WM volume reductions, CSF volume expansions, and basal ganglia volume enlargements, appeared in part to be related to antipsychotics. These findings may potentially have clinical implications for the use of long-term antipsychotic treatment.
>The plausibility of long-term antipsychotic treatment leading to global brain volume reductions is further supported by recent controlled studies in macaque monkeys.19–21 Animal studies provide an additional perspective on possible causative links because they permit postmortem neuropathological examination of the brain. Dorph-Petersen et al19 administered haloperidol, olanzapine, or sham medication to macaque monkeys in doses that produced plasma levels equivalent to those observed in treatment of schizophrenia patients. After 17 to 27 months of treatment, both haloperidol- and olanzapine-treated monkeys had an equivalent and highly significant 8% to 11% decrease in fresh brain weight and volume when compared with the sham group. These decreases affected all major brain regions but were most robust in frontal and parietal lobes.

>> No.10756733

>>10756584
So schizophrenia is a no-win situation then. You either don't take meds, be a literal schizo, then end up getting hit by a train, or you take meds and literally melt your brain.

>> No.10756736

>>10756733
What's wrong with getting hit by a train? Trains are pretty neat.

>> No.10756739

>>10756733
That's not true anon it is just the failure of our mental health system. Watch this if you want to learn more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPfKc-TknWU

>> No.10756746

>>10756733
>So schizophrenia is a no-win situation then. You either don't take meds, be a literal schizo, then end up getting hit by a train, or you take meds and literally melt your brain.
Pretty much, yeah.
On the plus side modern psychiatry is so thoroughly screwed up, corrupt, and incompetent that there's a very strong likelihood "schizophrenia" isn't some legitimate brain disease (like what psychiatrists really want it to be for the sake of the added clout they hope comes with having an objective, physical / biological organ to point to for the basis of the maladies they treat) and is more of a psychological tar pit schizophrenics think themselves into. In which case you could probably do some common sense things like get to sleep on a regular schedule for regular amounts of time, get some light exercise in like walking around the neighborhood, and eat at regular intervals with a health variety of food groups in sane calorie counts relative to your height and sex

>> No.10756861

>Why do they use brain scans to diagnose Alzheimer's disease but not schizophrenia?

The first part of this statement is bullshit. Alzheimers can only be seen on images in very severe cases. The tried and true method for diagnostic testing is brain slices with a microscope during autopsy.

>> No.10756922

>>10756861
>Alzheimers can only be seen on images in very severe cases.
Sort of. It can be seen, the problem is you can't necessarily differentiate between Alzheimer's brain degradation vs. normal age-related brain change. Severe cases aren't uniquely visible, they're just more obviously distinct from normal age-related brain change.

>> No.10756943

>>10756861
You always get some sort of brain imaging as part of the Alzheimer's diagnosis process. It just isn't the only thing looked at.
Also PET scans in particular have been used more recently for the specific purpose of diagnosis.
https://www.webmd.com/alzheimers/news/20190402/brain-scans-spot-track-alzheimers#1
>Brain scans can improve diagnosis and management of Alzheimer's disease, a new study claims.
>Researchers assessed the use of PET scans to identify Alzheimer's-related amyloid plaques in the brain. The study included more than 11,000 Medicare beneficiaries with mild thinking impairment or dementia of uncertain cause.
>This scanning technique changed the diagnosis of the cause of mental impairment in more than one-third of the participants in the study.
>The brain scan results also changed management -- including the use of medications and counseling -- in nearly two-thirds of cases, according to the study published April 2 in the Journal of the American Medical Association.
>"These results present highly credible, large-scale evidence that amyloid PET imaging can be a powerful tool to improve the accuracy of Alzheimer's diagnosis and lead to better medical management, especially in difficult-to-diagnose cases," said study co-author Maria Carrillo, chief science officer of the Alzheimer's Association.

>> No.10757056

>>10755939
I think Parkinson is more comparable than Alzheimer. Then you will realize Parkinson is also extremely hard to detect by MRI, because it is just dopamine
Well schizophrenia dopamine theory is long gone, but worth a shot

>> No.10757186

>>10755939
Because it's a made up disease and psychitrists are kooks. They diagnosed my sister with schizophrenia because she's an alcoholic and had delirium tremens. It's a made up disease made up by a fake science.

>> No.10757205

>>10755939
Is there any research on diagnosing schizophrenics based on their /sci/ post history?

>> No.10757206

>>10756584
Is this reversible ?

>> No.10757212

>>10757206
No. Antipsychotics fry your striatum in several hours. This CAN bee seen on an MRI, but nobody wants to talk about that.

>> No.10757353

>>10756733
it's unfortunate, but schizophrenics should be confined. Here's today's schizo murder from my news - there's one of these at least every second day
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-26/nigel-chaytor-stabbed-father-in-kelmscot-after-spirit-told-him/11249316
which i include to illuminate the problem with what people on here have heard from the media will solve the schizo threat "they can take medication"
>in the week before the attack, Mr Chaytor's parents noticed that his mental health was deteriorating and were concerned he was not taking his medication.
>his father sought help from a mental health triage team
>...the team said it would send someone to speak to him at his workplace, but two days later, in the early hours of the morning, he went to his parents' home and carried out the attack.
This is how it goes, there is no way to ensure they take the meds except confinement
I spoke too strongly in a previous thread saying they needed to be euthanased because i guess that day i just forgot about the option of locking them up

>> No.10757386

>>10757353
He took antipsychotics before, so it doesn't count.

>> No.10757393

>>10757353
Jesus christ

>> No.10757403

>>10757393

It's the antipsychotics, really. Sister got antipsychotics because she had hallucinations from alcohol withdrawal, has been violent ever since.

>> No.10757410

>>10757386
you're saying if he'd never taken the meds he wouldn't have got like this? the one who killed the most people in one go, who ran everyone over the other year, had never taken meds until after he was in prison for it. he probably took a lot of ice (meth) though

>>10757393
what?

>> No.10757416

>>10757410
>you're saying if he'd never taken the meds he wouldn't have got like this?
Yes. see>>10757403 And she's not the only one. In fact there doesn't seem to be anybody who didn't get even worse on them.


> the one who killed the most people in one go, who ran everyone over the other year, had never taken meds until after he was in prison for it. he probably took a lot of ice (meth) though

No idea who you're refering to, and the meth could have contributed to that.

>> No.10757417
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10757417

>>10756527
>behavioral diagnosis

>> No.10757455

>>10757417
Hi. Have you noticed if your friend has been behaving cancerous lately?

>> No.10757869

>>10757212
Why the fuck we CAN see that in MRI

>> No.10757884

>>10757212
... WHAT Antipsychotics, tho? There is hundreds of it, you know.
And source please, "ncbi.nlm.nih.gov" required

>> No.10757900

>>10757884
EVERY SINGLE Antipsychotics plays the largest role in fucking up Dopamine D2 receptor of striatum
You don't even know how basic function works, why you even want ncbi.nlm.nih.gov?

>> No.10757904

>>10757900
[hand waving intensifies]

>> No.10757905

>>10757900
It is because I do not know this. I'm sorry if you hurt your mind. But I would really appreciate it if the link was added.

>> No.10757912

>>10757904
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4286512/
>Structures of the striatum are of particular interest when considering the effects of treatment since they harbor the largest density of dopamine D2 receptors16. Although antipsychotic drugs vary in their potency and effect on cortical and subcortical functions, all known antipsychotic agents bind to the D2 receptor17.
But that is exactly how it works. This is literally the most basic assumption of Antipsychotics

>> No.10759445

>>10757417
what? schizophrenia is diagnosed when a person is clinically observed to meet specific criteria. you don't pull a test-positive for schizophrenia out of a blood test or a brain scan.

>ahyuck that means it isn't real

>> No.10759716

>>10756861
Literally not true. Tau PET and amyloid PET are very sensitive and can detect amyloid burden in prodromal alzheimers.

>> No.10759721

>>10757056
This isn't true. Parkinson's is similar to alzheimers in that its a proteinopathy where alpha synuclein accumulates. It can currently be imaged using DATscan which is measuring dopamine transporters, but people are currently trying to develop alpha synuclein PET imaging agents to direct image Lewy body pathology. MJFF has a 2 million dollar bounty if any of you autists want to take a crack at it.

>> No.10759729

>>10757884
>... WHAT Antipsychotics, tho? There is hundreds of it, you know.
If not otherwise specified "antipsychotic" almost certainly refers to dopamine blockers.

>> No.10759751

>>10759445
Yes, diagnosis is now done mostly over anonymous imageboard posts.

>> No.10759759
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10759759

>>10759445
>schizophrenia is diagnosed when a person is clinically observed to meet specific criteria. you don't pull a test-positive for schizophrenia out of a blood test or a brain scan.
>ahyuck that means it isn't real
It doesn't necessarily mean it isn't real, but it isn't a great sign either that you can't objectively ground it in the brain despite many years of trying to do exactly that.
Reverse inference test was failed about as badly as is possible:
>>10756575
It's a really fucking bad sign when you can't take what little physical detail you did manage to associate with schizophrenia and tell it apart from multiple other psychiatric diagnoses that were supposed to be distinct diseases of their own.
And of course the worst part of all this is the solid evidence available pointing to the brain damage bogeyman that was used to try to scare people into accepting schizophrenia is a biological disease actually being inflicted by the same antipsychotics meant to treat it:
>>10756584
But if that isn't bad enough, let's add big pharma corruption on top of all that so that indication creep can make the best selling drug of ANY kind a few years back end up an antipsychotic. Because antipsychotics are great if you need help getting to sleep at night, or feel kind of sad, or get a bit nervous every so often.
https://www.rt.com/usa/204563-abilify-top-grossing-medication/
I hate scientologists so much for making antipsychiatry a joke by association. Psychiatry is a mess and should be completely overhauled from the ground up if not just discarded altogether.

>> No.10760111

>>10759445
>what? schizophrenia is diagnosed when a person is clinically observed to meet specific criteria.
Schizophrenia is diagnosed when the person feels off to the psychiatrist or based on second hand infromation.

>> No.10760117

>>10759759
>And of course the worst part of all this is the solid evidence available pointing to the brain damage bogeyman that was used to try to scare people into accepting schizophrenia is a biological disease actually being inflicted by the same antipsychotics meant to treat it:

That has always been known. Chlorpormazine was first used as a narcotic in surgeries. When they found it causes brain damage, psychiatry took it as a more acceptable replacement of lobotomies. But it does the same thing.

>> No.10760212

>>10759759
>brain damage bogeyman that was used to try to scare people into accepting schizophrenia is a biological disease actually being inflicted by the same antipsychotics meant to treat it:
I will gauge my fucking eye if this is true; there is no way psychiatry being that sloppy (and vicious).

>> No.10760221

>>10760212
They are not sloppy, the drugs were chosen on pupropse. this>>10760117 is not a conspiracy theory.

>> No.10760227

>>10760221
Nigga having good purpose is literally independent to this problem, even Thalidomide used as good purpose

>> No.10760236

>>10760227
That purpose here is damaging your brain in a way that is less brutal than having an icepick pushed behind your eyes. It doesn't help ansybody, it "helps" in the way that the patients are flushing down the drugs and doing everything they can to not get locked up again, because of how horrible the drug is.

>> No.10760243

>>10755939
Everybody can be a "Schizo", it's just how good you deal with your mind that determines if you are one to others and how severe it is. Schizophrenia's definition is so vague that fuck you basically.

>> No.10760288 [DELETED] 

>>10760243
I don't get how such blatant pseudoscience even stays legal.

>> No.10760292

>>10760243
I don't get how such blatant pseudoscience even stays legal. People get into trouble for such things as telling people to let their childrend drink bleach, but psychiatrists roam free.

>> No.10760295

>>10760288
>ban what i dont like
totalitarian!

>> No.10760306

>>10760236
I don't know what the hell it's worth. You're like a person who's trying to rationally choose whether to be bitten by a hippo or a bear.

>> No.10760400

>>10760306
You don't understand, it's better for the psychiatrics, because it doesn't look like the butchery it is.

>> No.10760461

>>10760292
Yeah, I have so much hate for psychiatrists, I hope they will get the karma they deserve.

>> No.10760479

>>10755939
>Is it because schizophrenia is fake
Yeah and all the people who are having delusions and are claiming to hear voices are faking it. They're paid actors.

>> No.10760746

>>10756733
Even those with misdiagnosed schizophrenia know this (after some time). Record correcting could occur, sure, but there is no return at all.

>> No.10760755

>>10760243
More like accidental synchronicity determines your ultimate karmic fate.

>> No.10760799

>>10760479
>Yeah and all the people who are having delusions and are claiming to hear voices are faking it.
It's more like the people who have hallucinations and delusions don't actually have a physical brain disease causing it.

>> No.10761100

This >>10759967 is the norm in the field of psychology. Why would anyone care about their opinions?

>> No.10761286

>>10760479
They dont exist, and the psychiatrists know it. They don't diagnose you by what you think, they made up the diagnosis to exterminate people with "low arousal emotions" and they are onyl looking for the facial expressions associated with them. (also called "psachopaths"; the other destructive diagnosis is "high functioning autism") They don't even ask about delusions.
>>10761100
I know a few psychologists. They tend to believe in telepathy, precognition or other paranormal stuff. Most 100% fit their definition of shizotypy.

>> No.10761330

RUUUUHH DURRRRRRR SCHIZO MEME NURRRRRRRR **DROOL**

>> No.10761353

>>10760746
>>10760799
There are no tests for schizophrenia because those who are supposed to be diagnosed with it show perfectly rational responses and are immune to many illusions and cognitive biases. It wouls be weird to diagnose people based on that, so they cannot use it.

>>10761330
People drool because of those drugs, retard.

>> No.10761954

All you pro-psychiatrist posters conveniently ignore the documentary I posted which shows psychiatry is immoral.

>> No.10761965

>>10761954
you're just some faggot that's mentally ill that's in denial, so either you who's OP and also OP post these
>schizo isn't real u guise!!!!
here and on /x/

you don't know anything about the science behind it so you pretend that things which have been proven true are not.
you're a faggot, no matter what your problem is you'll always be one of those faggots
the people who make it harder for everyone who is sick somehow
fuck you

>> No.10761981

>>10759716
except not all alzheimers cases come with tau or amyloid plaques.

>> No.10761985

>>10761965
Wow you must be a psychiatrist that profits on people destroying their brains with anti-psychotics. Also you didn't watch the video schizophrenic people only ever FULLY recover when they get off their meds and go through actual quality therapy. There are alternative approaches for example the Open Dialogue approach. Anti-psychotics are poisonous and you actually don't know what you are talking about. Psychiatry is not a science it is pseudo-science and it does not have any relevance to the way the human mind actually works at all. Sorry you wasted your money on a psychiatry degree anon but it is not science at all and is an immoral business. The DSM is complete bullshit.

>> No.10761991

>>10761985
nope I'm schizophrenic
just stop while you're ahead you've already made a massive fool of yourself

>> No.10762002

>>10761991
Well anon that sucks if you are. But just so you know the psychiatrists are lying to you. It isn't a life long illness and you don't need medication. People have fully recovered without medication but they need to get real help and unfortunately especially in America the right help is not really available. But to make it available people need to stop listening to psychiatrists. Even if the anti-psychotics are helping you it is good to at least acknowledge there are alternatives which maybe are not viable for you but can be for others.

>> No.10762234

>>10761991
You're a pox on society whether you are cleared to be societal or not.

suggested viewing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEnklxGAmak

>> No.10762323

>>10761965
Not the same posteras me. I posted no documentary. Psychiatrists are quacks, there is no real science behind it. This is not made I made up, the6 say themselves this is how they diagnose people. They even say that testing for delusions would be pointless because it would upset the patient...

>> No.10762456

>>10760111
>>10759751
>>10759759

>a self diagnosis is valid
no it isn't. confused people posting on instagram or tumblr might be schizophrenic but aren't categorized as such until they are formally diagnosed.
>a diagnosis made without direct observation by a trained, experienced, licensed mental health professional is valid
no it isn't. not even health insurance will accept lesser diagnoses.
>if you can't find it in the brain, it probably doesn't exist
that's the hard part about psychology. behavior is a whole-organism phenomenon. it's not just in the brain or determined by a single gene sequence. that doesn't mean it's not real, it just means a whole lot of specialists in this area agree that this thing exists, they just don't have the technology to physically detect it yet. germs weren't "real" until we had microscopes and if you still disagree then i guess you think any celestial body other than earth and the moon "isn't real."

>> No.10762779

>>10762456
If you have no data in your support, you're a quack. Stop poisoning people.

>germs turned out to be real

A lot of things turned out to be bollox

>> No.10762800

>>10762456
>>>/biz/

>> No.10762943

>>10762456
I wrote nothing about self diagnosis. Read again.

>> No.10762946

>>10756539
the doctors were confused

>> No.10763024

>>10756539
and antipsychotics dont work on me

>> No.10763062

>>10755939
good question

>> No.10763074

>>10755939
Yes. Schizophrenia is a broad category of symptomatology and not a disease. There are probably numerous distinct neurological problems that can produce these symptoms. One hundred years from now, schizophrenia will be disintegrated and replaced with a variety of neurological diagnoses. These diagnoses will be treated with legitimate medications and procedures based on a biological understanding of the condition in question. These conditions will not be treated by psychiatrists (if that field even will exist anymore), but by neurologists. The current diagnosis of schizophrenia will be remember as pseudoscience and the current "treatments" for it (antipsychotics and ECT) will be regarded as harmful quackery.

>> No.10763088

>>10756577
>There are alternative treatments out there
Like a bullet in the back of the head.

>> No.10763093

>>10760212
>there is no way psychiatry being that sloppy (and vicious).
Get a load of this guy.

>> No.10763226

>>10763024
They do. You forget things, lose abilities and stop enjoying thins and you forget that you forget. Especially with the more vile ones like risperdal. You may even start thinking your past achievements were a delusion, that you actually cheated in school and that you'd never been able able to get straight A's otherwise.