/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.10733079]

Is the universe deterministic? Does the uncertainty principle by Heisenberg have any real effect on a macroscale? If it does, does it imply free will?

[Anonymous No.10733124]

>>10733079
if there's true randomness in anywhere at the universe, then surely it's not deterministic. human free will is deterministic regardless of the universe.

[Anonymous No.10733138]

>>10733124
Does true randomness exist?

[Anonymous No.10733150]

>>10733138
We currently do not know although at the cosmic micro/quantum scale it certainly does seem plausible.

Also, unlike what >>10733124 said, we have no fucking clue if free will exists or not, regardless of what brainlets say to make themselves look smart and edgy

[Anonymous No.10733158]

>>10733138
yes, it's source is quantum superposition.
https://phys.org/news/2018-04-quantum-method-random.html

>>10733150
>we have no fucking clue if free will exists or not,
there's no free will because humans are very predictable. that doesn't mean humans are deterministic, for instance i can flip a quantum coin (like observing spin of a particle) and kill myself if it's head. nobody knows if i will kill myself or not, so i'm not deterministic,

[Anonymous No.10733160]

>>10733150
>we have no fucking clue if free will exists or not, regardless of what brainlets say to make themselves look smart and edgy

We don't even have a coherent definition of "free will", so whether it exists or not is a non-question

[Anonymous No.10733162]

>>10733158
Could the quantum superposition exist solely because we're not advanced enough to observe the underlying variables? Also it seems to rely on probabilities, and the outcome seems to be the most probable one on a macroscale virtually every time. Doesn't that support the deterministic point of view?

[Anonymous No.10733166]

>>10733162
let me give you a secret of universe nobody knows in /sci/. quantum superposition is merely a shortcoming of our universe. it's too much processing power to execute each particle rigorously, so the universe uses this statistical approach to approximate reality. until you start measuring it of course.

it's like games render only the visible part of the map for efficiency, but you think that the whole game world is always there. it's not, there's no reason for it.

[Anonymous No.10733175]

>>10733166
So by that logic is not completely implausible that we live in a simulation and we're being controlled by this "error" in the universe?

[Anonymous No.10733177]

>>10733158
>kill myself if it’s head
But this statement is itself predetermined. At this point the quantum coin would split our timeline in to two predetermined realities.
Unless you could roll a infinitely sided quantum dice with each dice face causing something to happen that splits our timeline into situations that are impossibly predetermined, determinism is real.

[Anonymous No.10733179]

>>10733175
precisely

[Anonymous No.10733348]

>Free will exists because of quantum mechanics
>The universe is probabilistic
>Therefore the universe is a simulation

[Anonymous No.10733350]

>>10733079
The universe is non deterministic and free will doesn't exist

[Anonymous No.10733435]

>>10733079
>Is the universe deterministic?

that depends, are you aware of your fate, little one?

[Anonymous No.10733742]

>>10733079
>Is the universe deterministic?
It depends on whether you believe in wave-function collapse or not. For example, MWI-virgins are NPCs.

[Anonymous No.10733743]

>>10733079
>Is the universe deterministic?
It depends on whether you believe in wave-function collapse or not. For example, MWIrgins are NPCs.

[Anonymous No.10733757]

>>10733160
>>10733348

There is zero sum between freedom of will and freedom of action. In fact, that is precisely why the former is self-evident. This argument would be almost unassailable if they were one and the same. Had my will been "free" in implicitly being made manifest, then I would have to concede that it would be Epistemologically indistinguishable from a will totally subordinate to an autonomous Phenomenal. But I and the Phenomenal can disagree and, indeed, though it quantitatively binds my action, it cannot qualitatively bind my will.

[Anonymous No.10733774]

>>10733079
the uncertainty principle is about uncertainty in measurement. It doesn't mean that the universe isn't deterministic. the universe being deterministic means that if the universe were put in the exact same state as before that everything would evolve over time the same way as before. such uncertainty in measurement can be found in other non-quantum wave phenomena.

the non-determinism comes from the wave-functions themselves because they're basically probability density functions. so if you do an experiment where you measure some physical observable of a quantum system the results will be distributed according to some probability density function.

people wondered if this apparently probabilistic behavious was simply due to a lack of knowledge of some other variables like for example the rolling of a die , but then experiments on Bell's inequalities showed that no local hidden variables could account for the probabilistic results of quantum mechanics in a deterministic way so the only options are non-local hidden variables or the universe is non-deterministic. Non-local would violate special relativity which is extremely well supported and so the theory with more evidence is that the universe is non-deterministic.

[Anonymous No.10733776]

>>10733158
>I can flip a quantum coin
The mere notion of this experiment as an example of free will entering into consciousness, is an invalidation of the premise itself. The universe may or not be determined (quantum coin-flip), but, your will to participate in the experiment is.

[Anonymous No.10733803]

lol quantum mechanics is bullshit.

[Anonymous No.10734472]

>>10733124
>if there's true randomness
Yes, and if the universe was made of only watermelon then surely it wouldnt be cantaloupe.
True randomness has never been observed, is not expected to ever be observed, and we have no known system of creating it ergo this is pointless.
>human free will is deterministic regardless of the universe.
We dont even have a definition of free will so you cant possibly be making claims about it, which again makes this pointless.

[Anonymous No.10734483]

>>10733158
see >>10733776
Additionally quantum superposition doesnt break causality. Stop confusing metaphysics with physics.

[Anonymous No.10734493]

This is really an argument about the Laplacian demon. There is only one irrefutable argument against its existence, which is quantum mechanics since it is testably truly random.
All the other arguments can be countered.

[Anonymous No.10734557]

By definition, the universe includes everything that there is. Therefore there is only one universe, an existential set that includes everything.
If there is one universe composed of several components, those components are located through the universe's dimensions. Time, being a dimension, is fixed. The future is as determined as the past, and our limited ability at making predictions does not invalidate the fact that the future is fixed, destiny unavoidable.

In the continuous chain of cause and effect we evolved a nervous system through natural selection, this eventually led to consciousness. The ventromedial prefrontal cortex area in the brain subconsciously runs emotional simulations and helps the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex take rational decissions based on what diminishes pain/maximizes dopamine release in the long run. It's a complex survival mechanism, the result of building rationality over our mammalian emotional limbic structures. All our decissions are ultimately emotional.
A consequence of this process is that we compare many imagined emotional possibilities, an illusion of several possible outcomes some of which appear more desirable than others, as if we had free will deciding among various timelines, but the truth is that we are still determined to pick one, our behavior (free "choice") is determined by environment, past experiences and our genes. The other imagined outcomes remain in memory and with them the illusion of different realities. But you were always going to decide the same.
The chain of cause and effect is what makes the universe a single thing, it's what connects elements through the time dimension. The chain is one. If you had free will it would mean that each human for some magic reason has the ability to create new effects beyond the causes that led him to the point of decission. It would imply every human is a God capable of new genesis. It is an illusion, and a typical religious concept.

[Anonymous No.10734566]

>>10733803
Prove it.

[Anonymous No.10734571]

>>10733166
>it's too much processing power to execute each particle rigorously, so the universe uses this statistical approach to approximate reality. until you start measuring
>>10733175

No, in fact the opposite is true, universe seems to calculate ALL possible paths when nobody is looking, and then add up their contributions. That is why simulating quantum mechanics is much harder, not easier, than simulating classical physics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_integral

[Anonymous No.10734579]

>>10734566
I don't understand it therefore it's bullshit. QED (no, not Quantum Electrodynamics)

[Anonymous No.10734616]

>>10733079
>we don't know
>we don't know
>free will is not implied by indeterminism, they're separate concepts that shouldn't be directly linked
if any form of free will exists, it doesn't exist how people idealize it to exist. most decisions are entirely based on previous actions in a very complicated fashion for humans.