/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.10709959]

which plan is more realistic, Elon’s plan to colonize the planets/moons, or Bezos plan to build O’Neil cylinders?

[Anonymous No.10709968]

>>10709959
Langan's plan

[Anonymous No.10709993]

>>10709959
Mars will probably happen before 2030. O'Neil cylinders won't happen for a very long time due to lack of material capacity of the rockets. Mars can be kicked-started with just a handful of payloads with proper buildings made from local parts (or using spaceship itself)/electrical generation(via solar + nuclear). Then its a matter of creating a biodome either underground or with some reliable protection.

[Anonymous No.10710057]

Musk will actually spend his own money to try to get there

[Anonymous No.10710061]

>>10709959
The plan that tries both. Focusing all spaceflight efforts into one project is just asking for something to go wrong with it and end up holding back spaceflight.

[Anonymous No.10710068]

>>10709959
O'Neil's is a heckuva lot more fleshed out than Musk's...

[Anonymous No.10710089]

>>10709959

What you do is build an O'neil cylinder (or simpler habitats) around earth and send one to Mars orbit (and to every other planet). There is no easier way to start a mars colony than an orbital habitat. So both plans combined works very well.

[Anonymous No.10710108]

>>10710089
>creating miles long O'neil cylinder in Earth orbit/space within our lifetime
Nope.

Bezo's dream is really a dream, a really long dream that will take few decades at the very least due to lack of transportation. Do you know how many of New Glenn flights it would take to build a single 1 mile long O'neil cylinder? It would take a TON. At the very least couple hundreds to thousands of rocket to simply put a barebone system up in orbit.

[Anonymous No.10710119]

>>10709959
How doable is harvesting material from the moon to make cylinders?
Living on the moon itself seems rough because of gravity, but using the lack of gravity to more easily make cylinders seems like a better first step than terraforming Mars.

[Anonymous No.10710132]

>>10710108

Oh, uh, I didn't mean within our lifetimes. I just meant 'eventually'.

I think a permanently manned outpost is more likely in my lifetime (baring some sort of life extension technology becoming available). And even then, a space station around Mars is almost certainly first.

[Anonymous No.10710136]

>>10709959
What’s most realistic is expanding into space via multiple avenues, not just one.

[Anonymous No.10710139]

>>10709959
Humanity needs to stop delusional megalomaniac billionaires with delusions of grandeur like these two fuckwits if it's going to have any chance at long term survival.

[Anonymous No.10710164]

>>10709959
>>10710139
Humanity needs to stop them from using up all the resources for their retarded little pet projects. Sooner or later one of them is gonna want to build a HUGE pyramid or some shit and people will start to realize this.

[Anonymous No.10710211]

>>10709959
O'Neil cylinders are uninsurable so probably Musk's

[Anonymous No.10710279]

>>10709968
Jesus but Langan is a brainlet. What the hell does he mean by "merit survival in space"? Obviously it doesn't mean that "we can't even survive on Earth so obviously we can't do it in space", since we clearly can survive on Earth. His question has no satisfactory answer because it's a stupid question.

[Anonymous No.10710300]

>>10710279
cringe and bluepilled

[Anonymous No.10710306]

>>10710300
Take your mouth off Langan's cock for a minute. That way you can sound out your words, which might help you formulate an argument against what I said. I know it can be tricky for some people if you can't say the words out loud

[Anonymous No.10710312]

>>10710306

[Anonymous No.10710318]

>>10709959
Humans did not evolve to live in space, so staying in space for too long can have disastrous consequences. The same can be said about colonizing planets, we didn't evolve in these environments and any significant difference will eventually start marking humanity if we try to reproduce anywhere else besides earth.

[Anonymous No.10710319]

>>10710312
Zero relevance to what I said. Good thinking to try to dig up an irrelevant quote though, that's a good workaround if even sounding out the words isn't helping

[Anonymous No.10710326]

>>10710319
What you said was "we can clearly survive on Earth". What do you want me to do that? You're simply nitpicking one sentence and ignoring the topic at hand.

[Anonymous No.10710331]

>>10710326
I just dropped by to call Langan a brainlet and a poser, not talk about space colonies. His overall point is ok, not interesting but I wouldn't waste time trying to argue against it. However his question at the end is the kind of atrociously stupid thing you expect from classic Langan, so I commented on it.
My point, if it wasn't clear, is that what our species "merits" has no relevance whatsoever to whether space colonies are either possible or advisable, so the entire question is braindead posturing.

[Anonymous No.10710345]

>>10710331
cringe

[Anonymous No.10710353]

>>10710345
>I have nothing further to say in defense of my favorite pseudointellectual hack so I'll just say "cringe" and pretend that wasn't a dead on characterization

[Anonymous No.10710384]

https://youtu.be/b3D7QlMVa5s

Elon's plan seems to be cheaper and to add to that one could hollow out asteroids as well. Prime building material.

[Anonymous No.10710394]

>>10710312
>Racism that’s unrelated to the topic

[Anonymous No.10710404]

>>10710394
>waycis
Care to point out exactly what part of that comment was racist?

[Anonymous No.10710411]

>>10710404
“yet the borders of all and only the western nations have been ripped open so that they can serve as relief valves for less adaptive, reproductively incontinent groups”

Pretty obvious racist dogwhistle. Dunno why I expected you to be honest about it, though.

[Anonymous No.10710456]

>>10710411
calling it "racist" doesn't make it untrue.

[Anonymous No.10710534]

First they must build a lift to space. So they can cheaply send material into space.
While they don't do this they can't properly colonize nothing.

[Anonymous No.10710633]

>>10709959
Both
only paint drinking brainlets think we can only do one singular thing

[Anonymous No.10710634]

>>10710456
it's a leftist, anon
they're not sapient

[Anonymous No.10710666]

>>10710411

>racist
>dog whistle

buzzwords

[Anonymous No.10710675]

>>10709959
Mars colony in the short term, rotating habitats in the long term

Mars has actual resources available compared to vacuum of space, which makes Mars settlement much easier (inb4 asteroid mining meme)

however Mars lacks 1g gravity, which may yet turn out to be a huge issue for any colony

[Anonymous No.10710676]

>>10710666

"Dogwhistle" just means "I am attaching my own interpretation to what you are saying in order to assault you for the crime of disagreeing with me politically"

[Anonymous No.10710683]

whichever works

[Anonymous No.10710707]

>>10710675
asteroid mining is far less of a meme than planetary mining
>high purity deposits
>no fucktons of dirt to move out of the way
>no gravity forcing heavy earthmovers to be used
the only advantage planet mining has is the fact that we're well experienced with doing it, but that's no reason to not try and git gud at another thing, as we can always, and should always do both at once

[Anonymous No.10710729]

>>10709968
>what is and asteroid impact
>what is a gamma ray burst
>what is a nuclear war
>what is a yellowstone eruption

For a self-proclaimed 200 IQ he is quite the brainlet...

[Anonymous No.10710747]

>>10710729
Chris Langan is like the poster child of the problem with attributing intelligence to IQ scores.

It's like you have this really impressive bandwidth but the quality of the instructions you run can still be severely compromised.
Much like you had the fastest supercomputer there was but all you ever did with it was rendering porn.

[Anonymous No.10710804]

Oneil cylinder from hollowing out an asteroid could actually happen in our lifetime imo. Just find a right sized near earth asteroid and send drilling robots there.

[Anonymous No.10710826]

>>10709959
>O’Neil cylinders
WRONG SHAPE
YOU CAN'T HAVE WINDOWS IN SPACE

[Anonymous No.10710830]

>>10710729
>>10710747
Intelligence can't be quantified.

[Anonymous No.10710870]

>>10710826
>all artistic renditions of anything must be purely and artistically scientific with absolutely no allowance for personal aesthetics

[Anonymous No.10710871]

>>10710830
.t Brainlet

[Anonymous No.10710887]

>>10710707
asteroid mining is a meme because any suitable, large and differentiated asteroids are far in terms of delta-v and flight time, so unless you are building your colony right next to the asteroid, it is utterly pointless

suffice to say we aint flying humans to Ceres anytime soon

there will be a time when rotating habitats built from asteoidal material will become a good option, but not this century, this is the century of cis-lunar and Martian colonization

[Anonymous No.10710905]

>>10710826
you can have windows in space, but having such large glass walls is stupid, having most of your habitat be a hollow cavity is rather dumb, and having long cylinder is inherently unstable and prone to tip over during rotation

O'Neill cylinder was among the first designs for a colony, but we have progressed since then, and a more plausible design looks like this

https://settlement.arc.nasa.gov/Kalpana/KalpanaOne.html

[Anonymous No.10710912]

>>10710887
but that's fucking wrong
http://www.asterank.com/
There's fucktons of near earth asteroids, not all of them are way off in the fucking belt
additionally, the delta v requirements to go to an asteroid depends on the individual asteroids, with quite a few taking LESS delta v than going to the moon would take

no shit we ain't going to ceres, but ceres was never the target in the first place for this shit

[Anonymous No.10710929]

>>10710912
>unironically posting less than one kilometer large rocks, baked dry by the Sun

These are not viable targets for colonization.

The closest possibly viable targets are Phobos and Deimos, assuming they have sufficient volatiles, which we still do not know.

[Anonymous No.10710938]

>>10709959
O'Neil Cylinders are an End Game thing.
Bernal spheres and Stanford tori can be much smaller and while they aren't perfect they're stopgaps and stepping stones.
The name of the permanent extraterrestrial habitation game is bootstrapping. You start small and use what you have to build and leverage your next step.
Not to mention that there's still a lot to be learned about making a permanent habitat, and it's a lot easier to work those out in smaller facilities and start scaling them up.

[Anonymous No.10710943]

>>10710089
No dude. You go to the asteroid belts and build a station with a factory that builds new habitats and new factories.

[Anonymous No.10710950]

>>10710929
>The closest possibly viable targets are Phobos and Deimos
>>10710905
>and a more plausible design looks like this

Something like this for a plausible orbital colony, then. As a bonus you can maybe use Martian atmosphere to aerobrake into orbit.

[Anonymous No.10710970]

>Elon’s plan to colonize the planets/moons

We still dont know if the low gravity of Moon or Mars is enough to prevent zero g health issues. If its not enough, then any such colony is doomed from the start. Rotating space stations are harder, but a sure bet. Or perhaps Venus.

[Anonymous No.10710971]

>>10710950
If you were planning on staying on mars, a space elevator is practical. Mars' lower g means you won't need carbon nanotubes, modern materials would be up to the job.

[Anonymous No.10710974]

>>10710929
>asteroid mining wont work
>yes it will
>No, cause you can't colonize them
how much paint do you drink a day
clearly it's at least half a can

[Anonymous No.10710978]

>>10710938
Spheres are a meme
the majority of your fucking habitat is low and crooked gravity, with only a tiny ass band in the middle being decent
Tori however could actually work

[Anonymous No.10710981]

>>10710971
a space elevator would still be a massive undertaking that they wouldn't be able to manage, cause you need a fucking lot of material for it because of sheer size

[Anonymous No.10710991]

>>10710974
obviously we will not be shuffling unrefined resources all over the solar system, the only way asteroid mining makes any sense is if you utilize the resources locally, in orbit around the roid itself

[Anonymous No.10710992]

>>10710978
tori or cylinders, as "gravitational potential" of a rotating space station is cylindrical in shape

[Anonymous No.10710995]

>>10710971
not sure about an elevator, but Mars is a good planet for SSTO, something like a Starship does not need a booster when used as a vehicle to Mars orbit and back

[Anonymous No.10710999]

>>10710995
Mars has a thin atmosphere that would not cause much weather corrosion, while at the same time having enough to ensure the dust isn't like sawblades and shred the tether during a dust storm
mars is the worst place for landing on, but is one of the best for an elevator

[Anonymous No.10711001]

>>10710970
what about a Mars colony but with a Phobos Gestator station for raising non-jello babies
>>10710950

[Anonymous No.10711002]

>>10710999
Martian atmosphere, while thin, is thick enough for aerobraking

[Anonymous No.10711006]

Orbital space stations are the most viable option.

[Anonymous No.10711008]

>>10711006
sure, but orbit around what? you cannot colonize a vacuum

[Anonymous No.10711011]

it would be impossible to build an oneill cylindor. the scale of the production is too big. you'd need to transport far too much material out earth's gravity which would require too much energy.

the best we can hope for is send spaceships loaded up with tonnes of sperm and egg samples on a very long voyage to attractive potential planet.
We certainly would not be able to send many people on these voyages, we'd just be sending off people to start new colonies carrying a lot of genetic material with them.

Most of the human race is always going to stay on the planet they're born on. there is no way around that. there isn't enough energy for many people to leave earth.

We really need to get serious about managing the human population , pollution, environment, biodiversity.
our quick development is letting too many things go unchecked and build up.

[Anonymous No.10711012]

>>10711008
The planets obviously

[Anonymous No.10711021]

>>10711001

Why not just stay on the Phobos station then.

[Anonymous No.10711026]

>>10710981
>would still be a massive undertaking
Which is why I said if you were planning on staying there long term.
It's not something you throw up in a weekend, but if you've got established space based industry and infrastructure then material resources will not be a problem for several hundred thousand years.
Mars, being adjacent to the asteroid belt, also makes it a very good weigh station for anything headed out there. As mentioned before it's a pain in the ass to get to the asteroid belt because there's not really anything substantial enough to "catch" you. It's why the ion drive was perfectly suited for the missions out there, you don't need gravitational assist, but that's not feasible for a heavy load that you need to get there in a reasonable time frame. So you use mars as a transit hub.
A big warehouse where you hold everything sent from earth, when good transits are open, and then dole it out as mars approaches various asteroid's that need to be resupplied, or that you are establishing.
It's still a lot of delta v to brake at the other end, but you've got a shorter trip so less fuel spent over all.
As an added bonus, with a space elevator its cheap for martians to get up to a station that spins at 1g, so just make it a part of martian life that for every month spent on the planet you spend a few weeks on station for recreation and PT. Send pregnant women and young children up there so skeletal and muscular development can go ahead in normal-ish conditions.
It's still far in the future, but it doesn't require any novel new technologies to accomplish, just time, money, and elbow grease. Considering that if you do it right, economics and scarcity are re-defined, and you remove population pressures for the next eon or two, it's a minimal investment compared to the infinite return.

[Anonymous No.10711028]

>>10711021
not enough resources for an entire civilization

[Anonymous No.10711033]

>>10711028

You can mine Mars. Delta v from Mars to Phobos or Deimos is pretty low.

[Anonymous No.10711077]

>>10710887

>asteroid mining is a meme because any suitable, large and differentiated asteroids are far in terms of delta-v and flight time

You can minimize delta-v by increasing flight time. And if you are just sending pre-processed ore from asteroid belt into the inner system, without people on board, there is no reason to not do so - radiation is not a danger to minerals. As long as you have continuous stream of resources flowing in, it does not matter if the flight of individual container took many years.

Pack a container with 100s of tons of asteroid resources, give it a gentle push with an engine, wait 15 years until it reaches your inner system colony, give it the same gentle push to decelerate. Do this continously.

[Anonymous No.10711265]

>>10709968
"All your objections are a priori invalid"

[Anonymous No.10711339]

>>10710119
>not enough gravity on the moon
>take away stuff so there's even less
these are the minds of the future of science

[Anonymous No.10711344]

>>10710211
is Mars colony insurable?

[Anonymous No.10711383]

>>10709959

Why not both? Gundam did that, didn't it?

[Anonymous No.10711406]

10711339
>shitting on the floor for attention

[Anonymous No.10711421]

Until we get launch loop, space elevators, mass drivers, skyhooks, space towers, and orbital rings, we aren't going anywhere. Rockets, even renewable ones, are too inefficient to sends millions of people necessary to fully colonise space.

[Anonymous No.10711423]

>Bezos
Boy, I sure envy those future people living in their Amazon SpaceTubes, surrounded by technology so smart they can be ejected into space for wrongthink inferred from metadata.

[Anonymous No.10711430]

>>10711421
>Rockets, even renewable ones, are too inefficient to sends millions of people necessary to fully colonise space.

You only need to send tens of thousands. The rest will be achieved by them reproducing.

[Anonymous No.10711436]

>>10709959

Colonize the Moon first, you idiots. It's closer. You aren't completely on your own. Your comms don't have to deal with much lighspeed lag. You can go back to Earth in a couple of days rather than having to spend months or even years, and it would serve as a launching point to space for missions beyond Earth's orbit.

[Anonymous No.10711437]

>>10711430

Not even thousands. If you want to send megatons to space, you need something better than a rocket.

[Anonymous No.10711441]

>>10711430

>Find out that you get jelly babies outside Earth's gravity.

[Anonymous No.10711443]

>>10711344
The people and things on it, sure. Don't forget that payloads now are insured. Losing whats on a launch represents a significant sink of time, money, and resources.

[Anonymous No.10711457]

>>10711441

Rotational gravity.

[Anonymous No.10711461]

>>10711421

>that Launch Loop base station render

Upvoted.

[Anonymous No.10711490]

Ok

[Anonymous No.10711495]

How does 4chan works?

[Anonymous No.10711498]

>>10709968
>implying human survival on earth isn't dependent on technologies
I'd like to see how well he'd do if he just walked into the middle of a forest without any form of technology. For that matter, I'd like to see how he'd fare if the complex global food supply system failed.

We're completely dependent on technology already, so we might as well go live somewhere that doesn't have constant random earthquakes, storms, plagues, etc.

[Anonymous No.10711505]

They're both just spouting buzzwords.

[Anonymous No.10711518]

>>10710411
Ok retard. A little obsessed maybe? What are you gonna do? Cry? Piss and shit? Maybe shit and cum?

[Anonymous No.10711540]

>>10711437
>If you want to send megatons to space, you need something better than a rocket.

Mature reusable rocketry should result in costs of less than $100 per kilogram to orbit, within order of magnitude of propellant costs.

[Anonymous No.10711587]

>>10711430
SpaceX estimates ~5000 for a fully redundant colonization project for Mars. However the Mars colonization can run with little as few hundreds with proper pairings.

[Anonymous No.10711602]

>>10711587
source please

[Anonymous No.10711650]

>>10711602
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/gch2.201800062

Not the same paper, but they also believe 5000 is needed for sustainable/longterm colony on Mars. I dodn't remember the original source for SpaceX.

[Anonymous No.10711710]

If carbon nanotubes proves to be shit would it be theoretically possible to just build an ordinary tower close to geosynchronous orbit with current technology? Out of steel and over several generations?

[Anonymous No.10711777]

>>10711710
not just no, but hell no

[Anonymous No.10711810]

>>10710905
>you can have windows in space

Sure, but you can't have them open to space for very long or the radiation will kill/cancer you and everyone else. People don't realize that the amount of radiation shielding you'd need for a window is so much that seeing through the window would be a lost cause. That is why the Cupola on the ISS has thick shielding to cover the windows when not in use, though mostly for debris protection since ISS is a radiation sink already.

[Anonymous No.10711817]

>>10711710

Before that, we will see a nanotube bridge between Asia and the America.

[Anonymous No.10711825]

>>10711540

Launch loops drops that cost to 3$/kg beating even the space elevator.

[Anonymous No.10711832]

>>10711710

Nope. The only way how to build similar elevators without carbon nanotubes is by using active structures, like Launch Loop. Material tensile strength is substituted by inertia.

[Anonymous No.10711840]

>>10711710
No, a space elevators, launch loops, or orbital rings are all completely sci-fi. Stuff like carbon nanotubes and graphene are just grant chasing fodder at worst and at best for electronics, optics, and keeping you clothing clean respectively. Materials science and physics simply don't work like that.

[Anonymous No.10711847]

>>10711840

We could build a Launch Loop with our current materials right now and it will only get easier as our tech improves.

[Anonymous No.10711854]

>>10711847
No, you, and the people seeking grants for it, are all completely full of high order sci-fi shit.

[Anonymous No.10711875]

>>10711854

The only limit is the cost to build one which currently is in the order of 2-10 billions $ with our current tech. Developing cheap reusable rockets won't eliminate the rational for building launch loops or other space infrastructure.

[Anonymous No.10711891]

>>10711875
Sure thing, kid.

[Anonymous No.10711900]

>>10711540

Yes, I'm totally sure Elon will make rockets a 1000 times more reliable and a 100 times cheaper in 10 years.

If Elon Musk comes up to you and says that he's going to make a 20,000 $ car for 2$ you would call bullshit.

[Anonymous No.10711928]

>>10711854

So is a Mars colony.

[Anonymous No.10711929]

>>10711810
Bullshit, you do not understand space radiation. You can have windows in space, just like Cupola on ISS. But you need to only spend few hours per day near them, and the rest deeper in the station, where 10 tons per square meter of shielding is available, protecting you from cosmic rays. They just ignore this on the ISS because they are up there for less than a year, as it is not a true colony.

[Anonymous No.10711931]

>orbital rings
>launch loops
>both with John Knapman fingerprints all over them

Dr. John Knapman is nothing more than a speculative research grant farmer. This isn't his first rodeo.

[Anonymous No.10711938]

>>10711900
There is no technical reason why it would not be possible.

[Anonymous No.10711940]

>>10711929
Seems you know nothing of secondary particles.

[Anonymous No.10711942]

>>10711938

Oh, I'm sure that's exactly the reason why it hasn't been done in 50 years of spaceflight.

[Anonymous No.10711945]

>>10711940
Nothing about secondary particles invalidates what I said.

[Anonymous No.10711946]

>>10711928
Who cares about that bullshit? Good luck with their Jello Babies I say.

[Anonymous No.10711951]

>>10711942
Spaceflight is in infancy, and especially reusable rocketry.

[Anonymous No.10711969]

>it's the NEVER EVER luddite again
apparently, if something hasn't been done already, it's completely impossible to do and will never be done, with everyone trying presently being frauds and crooks, no matter the state of their efforts

[Anonymous No.10711971]

Current estimates indicate that sending humans to Mars is 500 billion US dollars, though the actual cost are likely to be more. US military budget is about $600 bn. That's far more than the entire NASA budget of just $20 bn. Musk's estimates that he can do it with a budget of $0.0002 bn. Yeah, sure. This Mars thing is nothing but a marketing gimmick. At most we will see space hotels in our lifetime.

[Anonymous No.10711979]

>>10711945
Your entire post is full of ignorance though. Read a book.

[Anonymous No.10711982]

>>10711971
>Current estimates indicate that sending humans to Mars is 500 billion US dollars

dumbest thing I ever read

[Anonymous No.10711986]

>>10711931

>hurr durr Knapman

Never heard of Lofstrom?

Here is a Launch Loop paper for you:

http://slides.launchloop.com//launchloop.pdf

Slides from Space Elevator conference:

http://launchloop.com/LaunchLoop?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=isdc2002loop.pdf

[Anonymous No.10711989]

>>10711969
*Logical fallacy alert*
*Sci-fi anon alert*

[Anonymous No.10711992]

>>10711979
not an argument

[Anonymous No.10712001]

>>10711982
anyone in the non-corrupt half of the space industry agrees
however, congressmen and their friends need their new yachts, so that's the number we get until Musk can go burn it

[Anonymous No.10712002]

>>10711982

Taylor, Fredric (2010). The Scientific Exploration of Mars. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 306.

[Anonymous No.10712007]

>>10712001

How is that hyperloop and tunnel cars going?

[Anonymous No.10712019]

>>10711986
>Keith Lofstrom
>electrical engineer
>speculative research for grants

"Sci-fi scientist"

[Anonymous No.10712027]

ITT: people with the inability to separate fiction from reality who suffer from white coat worship.

[Anonymous No.10712034]

>>10712007
dunno, they're administrated by other people autonomously, the former being unrelated to him completely

[Anonymous No.10712039]

>>10712019

Stop spreading FUD and read the paper, dummy.

[Anonymous No.10712051]

>>10711969

These are the kinds of people who think human spaceflight peaked in the 90s with the Shuttle and there will never be anything more advanced.

[Anonymous No.10712067]

>>10712051

Elon Musk is not Tony Stark.

[Anonymous No.10712071]

>>10712067
nobody said he was, thunderf00t

[Anonymous No.10712072]

>>10711875
>$2-10 billion for 2000 km long/80 km high, essentially a much more advanced hyperloop
NOPE. A 350 mile hyper loop can cost ~$10 billion dollar. 2000 mile launch loop will cost an order of magnitude more. I can guarantee it will cost atleast 100+ billion for the project due to logistics issues. Maybe in 1950, this might have costed $10 billion dollar.

FYI, California's 250 mile highspeed train will cost the state $100 billion dollars. The original estimate was $30 billion dollars. 2000 miles is nearly half the country of the US.

[Anonymous No.10712083]

>>10711971
>Current estimates indicate that sending humans to Mars is 500 billion US dollars
>>10711971
>That's far more than the entire NASA budget of just $20 bn

$500 billion is high estimate for entire cost of the program over two decades, $20bn is NASA *yearly* budget, way to mix apples and oranges

[Anonymous No.10712090]

>>10712072
>Californian government contracting
>a valid cost measurement
while I agree it will cost far more, your way of figuring it out is very flawed

[Anonymous No.10712095]

>>10712072

>California's 250 mile highspeed train will cost the state $100 billion dollars

>using Cali ridiculously overpriced government pork projects as an argument

You might as well say that its impossible to build cheap launch system because SLS or Shuttle is expensive as fuck, or its impossible to build cheap nuclear power plants because western red-tape infested nuclear industry cannot do so.

If not the US, China will build the Launch Loop, and do it for $10 billion as predicted in the paper.

[Anonymous No.10712102]

>>10712095
>chinese quality standards
>on a megastructure
jesus christ the fucking horror

[Anonymous No.10712110]

>>10712090
>>10712095
There are just few main space/aeronatics centers in the US. California/Texas/Florida/Washington. They're all expensive due to the level of development.

[Anonymous No.10712114]

>>10712095
China has their own ambitions on space elevators by 2050 or so.

[Anonymous No.10712119]

>>10712102

Thats racist.

[Anonymous No.10712123]

>>10712072

With our current capabilities, yes. But then again, reusable rockets are in their infancy too. A rocket hull made out of diamond-hard graphene might make rockets way lighter and more reusable, but it would also make alternative launching systems such skyhooks and space elevators a lot more viable too. Same thing, room temperature superconductors like metallic hydrogen makes mass drivers or a space gun a lot more viable also. You are always confined to the dynamics of the rocket equation so that these other options still make better results for large-scale cargo in the long run.

[Anonymous No.10712164]

>>10712102
Can we all just be thankful that the three gorges damn hasn't killed a few hundred thousands chinese yet.

[Anonymous No.10713023]

>>10712119
Hahaha, look at this baizou

[Anonymous No.10713027]

>>10709959
>Bezos
>Musk
>pop-sci
Dude, this ain't R eddit, kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.10713029]

>>10710057
Kill yourself r edditor fanboy

[Anonymous No.10713036]

>>10711710
Good, I want Elon to send my poop to space so I can telepathically brap his neko anime girls

[Anonymous No.10713399]

>>10709959
>Elon’s plan to colonize the planets/moons, or Bezos plan to build O’Neil cylinders?

we don't know enough about how long term fractional gravity effects full cycle human reproduction.

[Anonymous No.10713569]

>>10711498
I think he personally would do just fine

[Anonymous No.10713800]

>>10712007
Former hyperloop employee here. They downsized over the last year but didnt die. Just got another 100 mill from investors. Dunno what project theyre doing but whatever it is its small scale. Probably " how do we into turning?"

[Anonymous No.10713964]

>>10709968
>he doesn't know about flood basalt eruptions

[Anonymous No.10713970]

>>10709959
For the launched mass required to build a single orbital habitat you could build a very large colony on Mars with enough industrial capability to double its own size annually and end up with a colony with a population of millions in several decades, which would be a far more advantageous starting point for building orbital habitats from, since Mars has low gravity and two ultra-low gravity moons conveniently orbiting it.

[Anonymous No.10713992]

>>10713970
>launching habitat material from a planet
nobody of any intelligence ever under any circumstance held this idea nor ever suggested it

[Anonymous No.10714033]

>pro planet anons: hurr how are we gonna send that much materials up there?
>pro oneil anons: no you just make it from an asteroid
rinse and repeat the thread

[Anonymous No.10714241]

>>10713992
What are exports? For 200, Alex

[Anonymous No.10714280]

>>10711423

I'm thinking that wage-cuck cage was designed for space stations.

[Anonymous No.10714294]

>>10712039
>anon, read "mathematical asspulls and poor understandings of material science" paper please!

It is semi-hard science fiction, nothing more. It is like you want to compare people telling the Wright brothers that then can't do it, but actually it is like you're saying Icarus is legit.

[Anonymous No.10714297]

>>10714280
No, it was designed for this place.

[Anonymous No.10714471]

>>10713970

>you could build a very large colony on Mars

Unless Martian gravity is not enough to prevent jellyfication.

[Anonymous No.10714812]

>>10709959
It is difficult to predict, considering that, right now, the feasibility of either of them tends to zero.

[Anonymous No.10714844]

>>10714297
>tfw my company gave kiva a whole bunch of money to come in and retool our warehousing system
>they installed it in one facility and then dropped us like a bad habit the minute amazon started sniffing around them

[Anonymous No.10714985]

Why do r edditors love Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos so much?

[Anonymous No.10714998]

>>10714294
so you never bothered reading it and had already made up your mind right from the beginning
k

[Anonymous No.10715020]

>>10710139
this

[Anonymous No.10715050]

Why do fags love Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos so much?

[Anonymous No.10715096]

>>10715050
They're doing something about the future of mankind rather than living a life of luxury and partying everyday for the rest of their life while their investments in stocks grow 6% a year.

[Anonymous No.10715097]

>>10715050
Probably because some spaceflight fans have lost faith in NASA, and those two rich men are breaking new ground (or at least don't have 50 years of disappointment behind them like NASA) which make people excited.

[Anonymous No.10715110]

>>10710318
we will evolve into space beings. just give it a few million years of living, bredding in space, and dna adaption

[Anonymous No.10715117]

>>10709959
Large space habitats make more sense quality of life-wise. Who would want to turn into a weakened fucking mutant on some garbage 0.38G planet on which you have to basically be underground 99% of the time? There isn't a non-doomsday scenario that could turn Earth into a shittier place to live than Mars, so there's also no reliable incentive for people to move there. By the time these projects become feasible to even plan (2060-70+), we'd have serious multi-level automation so actual colonists on Mars would probably have some small and very specific maintenance or service job that could be done in 2-3 hours, while wallowing in boredom for most of the time.
A L4/5 colony could have all the nature and quality of life of Earth, all the thrills of space, no gravity well for large-scale material moving, freedom of movement and be close enough to Earth for mostly real-time communication with the planet.

[Anonymous No.10715150]

>>10709959
>O’Neil
Two l's!

[Anonymous No.10715201]

>>10715117
Indoor underground habs can be comfy and spacious. Just look at the airport in Singapore, shopping malls in Dubai, or Biosphere 2 in Arizona, these are not underground structures but if you built something as grand and spacious there would'nt be much reason to outside. The first generation of Settlers will likely live pressurized vans while these are built, the second generation will live in the underground structures while the millennia long terraforming project begins.

[Anonymous No.10715730]

>>10715201
The thing is that Mars basically cannot be "terraformed". You have shit gravity, fuckall carbon, fuckall oxygen that isn't bound to silicates and fuckall water, the atmosphere is basically so thin its borderline non existent. And with the effort and time you'd need to expend with theoretical sci-fi tech to bring those resources in these quantities to Mars, you'd be able to build hundreds of thousands of habitats to house a trillion people with perfect conditions for human life.

[Anonymous No.10715945]

>>10715730
Mars has shittons of water under the poles, enough for full blown oceans

[Anonymous No.10715957]

>>10710826
>YOU CAN'T HAVE WINDOWS IN SPACE
14.7psi isn't that much. I have tubular gage glass that's subjected to 150psi steam and it's not blowing up. It's also like 1/8th of an inch thick.

[Anonymous No.10716071]

>>10715730
>Arctic can't be terraformed
>has a city of thousands thriving

Turns out you don't need to terraform the entire world into Earth, only the parts that you intend to use. So is it possible to do that? Ofcourse. We can build domes of virtually any size, given physical/cost limits today.

[Anonymous No.10716075]

>>10715050
Better question is, why dont you.. try to imagine that SpaceX and BO dont exist, and all we have to look forward to, in fucking 21st century, is the obsolete abomination that is SLS. It makes one weep.

[Anonymous No.10717617]

>>10712027
Huh

[Anonymous No.10718130]

Don't people realize that space habitats mean being able to live in your own ideal society? You want an all white protestant society? You got it. You want a society based around a specific philosophy, religion, lifestyle, or fetish? You got it.

How is this only something internet weirdos like me are interested in?

[Anonymous No.10718133]

Neither, we were born on this planet and will die on it like miscarriage.

[Anonymous No.10718135]

>>10710411
I'm progressive, but liberals are fucking retarded.
Vote Andrew Yang 2020

[Anonymous No.10718138]

>>10709959
Neither. Shitty planning will only maintain the current decay you call a society/civilization, and by the time anyone realizes that these are not big advancements, but capitalism bullshit that has no long term relevance, even the final frontier will become a sign of the spreading dystopia.

Then hope dies.

[Anonymous No.10718252]

>>10709959
>to build O’Neil cylinders

[Anonymous No.10718334]

>>10709959
We can do both.

[Anonymous No.10718704]

>>10718135
no, you are the bigger retard

[Anonymous No.10718708]

>>10709959

Both are exceedingly retarded plans by two men who are appealing to your "omg space daddy" senses in order to sell you their products.
Future generations will laugh at how gullible the "OMG I LOVE SCIENCE" generation was.

[Anonymous No.10718726]

>>10718252
where is that from

[Anonymous No.10718946]

>>10718708
As long as they're laughing at us from off world I couldn't give a shit.

[Anonymous No.10721170]

>>10718946
?

[Anonymous No.10721185]

>>10718708
I love both of them because they push space stuff. I love them even more because they trigger commie shits like you.

[Anonymous No.10721723]

>>10710804
typical asteroids are loose piles of rubble, you can not really "hollow it out"

[Anonymous No.10721726]

>>10709968
The whole species doesn’t have to inhabit the space ship. There is no “deserves” in spacefaring and survival, as well.

[Anonymous No.10721885]

>>10721723
you can if you put plating on the inside to keep it hollow
leave the outside as free radiation shielding, while your actual hab is a normal steel walled hab

[Anonymous No.10721969]

>>10718726
seems like a standard Universal Century Gundam colony to me

Watch Mobile Suit Gundam 0079 and Zeta Gundam for a pretty solid portrayal of space societies living in O'Neil cylinders, if you can bear the whole giant robots military SF with traumatized child soldier protagonists angle.

[Anonymous No.10722860]

>>10709959
>Bezos plan to build O’Neil cylinders
what

did he commit to it? KEK

i'd honestly have to side with musk on this one because it is at least possible to ship a living thing to anywhere in our solar system (it will die horribly but who cares), and the cylinder would take materials that don't exist in amounts that technically don't exist either and plus it also encompasses most if not all of the burdens of space colonization

[Anonymous No.10724643]

>>10722860
KEK?

[Anonymous No.10724845]

>>10710411
Found the nigger sympathizer

[Anonymous No.10724956]

Build cylinders
Fill them with undesirables
Turn on gas
Profit

[Anonymous No.10725005]

>>10709959
Neither.
Both are scams to get government money by appealing to people's sci-fi fantasies.

[Anonymous No.10725037]

>>10725005
we have a winner.

[Anonymous No.10725057]

10725005

[Anonymous No.10725398]

>>10710999
But dust is a major problem

[Anonymous No.10725423]

>>10725398
less of one compared to the moon's hell dust

[Anonymous No.10725450]

If space is as portrayed then logically both methods will pair well. It will require a full spectrum way of operating and existing outside of this, a diversified way. We would be young compared to the outside so if a plant has cycles of disasters unforeseen the other way is a contignecy, and vice-versa. They are both a team they just don't know it! If space is such that is!

[Anonymous No.10727018]

>>10709959
What matters is which one is more ambitious

[Anonymous No.10727218]

>>10713800
>Probably " how do we into turning?"
extremely low angles and when you really need to do an acute turn have it slow down.

there, give me the 100 mil

[Anonymous No.10727239]

>>10709959
if we have the technology to do either then we have the technology to ameliorate climate change

[Anonymous No.10727311]

Both are retarded.

There is not a single modern society that reproduces itself or even grows. Space habitats or Mars colonies, they're just fancy graves where people from Earth are sent to die.

What we actually need is to shed our bodies and become one with computers, a full upload of human civilization, then we can claim the stars and populate them because death has become meaningless.

[Anonymous No.10727362]

>>10718130
It's the future.

[Anonymous No.10727389]

How the fuck is gravity going to work on O'Neil cylinders???

[Anonymous No.10727400]

>>10727389
Sweety, we have engineering magic.

[Anonymous No.10727403]

>>10727389
were you the kid that skipped physics class in high school?

[Anonymous No.10727422]

>>10709959
Using nuclear pulse starships to transport human populations to nearby systems and build collapsar gates for ftl between the colonies and Sol.

[Anonymous No.10728439]

>>10715150
There's another one with only one l, but he has no sense of humor at all

[Anonymous No.10728493]

>>10727422
the fuck is a collapsar gate, faggot

[Anonymous No.10728499]

>>10710279
>taking the Lord's name in vain
>insulting a smart pious man
Enjoy hell.

[Anonymous No.10728505]

>>10710411
Cringe and bluebrained.

[Anonymous No.10728508]

>>10710729
Those are events that rely on knowledge not intuitive thinking.

[Anonymous No.10729613]

>>10710991

You can shuffle unrefined ores from asteroids from their parallel-to-Earth trajectories into Earths orbit then refine them there, as said earlier for less $$$ and Delta-V than a moon trip

[Anonymous No.10729668]

Bezos has a better plan and vision, which is understood by anyone that digged in the topic of space colonization.
However Musk has energy and charisma that drive people, and the vision of terraformed Mars is very romantic which will help him out.
In the long run though Bezos is right.
Ultimately Humanity will become a truly space civilization without the need for planets.

[Anonymous No.10729675]

>>10709959
>Elon's plan

>elon musk invented colonizing other planets

[Anonymous No.10729692]

Top lel.

[Anonymous No.10729763]

>>10729675
Elon Musk will invent colonizing other planets if he's the first. He's the only person with the goal/money/rockets/resourcefulness/drive to get there. China might, but don't count on NASA until atleast 2030-2040+

[Anonymous No.10731303]

>>10729692
What?

[Anonymous No.10731455]

>>10731303
You are not very smart, are you?

[Anonymous No.10731486]

>>10729692
you need available resources, good luck colonizing a vacuum lol

Mars first, orbital colonies much later

[Anonymous No.10731493]

>>10731486
t. hasn't read the thread

[Anonymous No.10731731]

>>10710279
gr8 b8 m8. i rel8 str8 appreci8 nd congratul8. i r8 dis b8 an 8/8. plz no h8, i'm str8 ir8. cr8 more cant w8. we shood convers8 i wont ber8, my number is 8888888 ask for N8. no calls l8 or out of st8. if on a d8, ask K8 to loc8. even with a full pl8 i always hav time to communic8 so dont hesit8. dont forget to medit8 and particip8 and masturb8 to allevi8 ur ability to tabul8 the f8. we should meet up m8 and convers8 on how we can cre8 more gr8 b8, im sure everyone would appreci8 no h8. i dont mean to defl8 ur hopes, but itz hard to dict8 where the b8 will rel8 and we may end up with out being appreci8d, im sure u can rel8. we can cre8 b8 like alexander the gr8, stretch posts longer than the nile's str8s. well be the captains of b8 4chan our first m8s the growth r8 will spread to reddit and like reel est8 and be a flow r8 of gr8 b8 like a blind d8 well coll8 meet me upst8 where we can convers8 or ice sk8 or lose w8 infl8 our hot air baloons and fly tail g8. we cood land in kuw8, eat a soup pl8 followed by a dessert pl8 the payment r8 wont be too ir8 and hopefully our currency wont defl8. well head to the israeli-St8, taker over like herod the gr8 and b8 the jewish masses 8 million m8. we could interrel8 communism thought it's past it's maturity d8, a department of st8 volunteer st8. reduce the infant mortality r8, all in the name of making gr8 b8 m8

[Anonymous No.10731856]

>>10727311
>upload of human civilization
our only hope is bioengineering
a upload of civilization would be just a non sentient copy

[Anonymous No.10733029]

>>10709959
Anyone have a better image?