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/sci/ - Science & Math

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10696691 No.10696691 [Reply] [Original]

The most important reason you do not believe in free will is because it is a tough pill to swallow that you are a mere spectator of your own life.

>> No.10696699

>>10696691
I fully accept that I am a mere spectator of my own life. That is precisely the reason I don't believe in free will. How did you get this so backwards?

>> No.10696702

>>10696691
Also, if McDonald's ever stopped serving steak bagels all day, I would stop living.

>> No.10696705
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10696705

>>10696699
Explain to me how you can have free will and be a mere spectator of your own life then. Of course you would be able to choose to be a mere spectator, but I take it you didn't mean that.

>> No.10696706

>>10696699
I believe in free will but I still think OP is a retard.

>> No.10696709

>>10696691
>Anon, it's time to go look for a job. You're 30 years old and haven't left your room since high school
>Moooooom, don't you GET IT? I'm not responsible for my own actions, I'm just a spectator in an automaton that responds to outside stimuli

>Anon then went on to jerk off some more.

>> No.10696710

this makes no sense. you mean the most important reason people don't believe in determinism?

>> No.10696715

>>10696705
>Explain to me how you can have free will and be a mere spectator of your own life
What you're asking me is the opposite of what I said. I guess you did that intentionally.

>> No.10696716

>>10696710
You're completely right, I messed that up. Should have been:
>The most important reason you do not believe in the absence of free will is because it is a tough pill to swallow that you are a mere spectator of your own life.

>> No.10696719

>>10696715
I just realized I made a mistake.
See >>10696716

>> No.10696723

>>10696715
>Doesn't believe in free will
>Ascribes intent to others

>> No.10696725

>>10696691
i am an expert on the standard model of particle physics, and i do not claim to know about consciousness. that’s bio shit. science continues without worrying about the “big questions”

>> No.10696729

>>10696709
This is exactly what people who stubbornly believe in free will say. Even if you're successful, your success wasn't due to your own choices. But it is nice to ascribe your success to your own choices. It is very satisfying. This is the main reason people believe in free will, even though it doesn't exist. Because this belief makes them feel good about themselves. There is no other reason for it.

>> No.10696733
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10696733

>>10696691
i have free will but i just can't stop loving you OP.

>> No.10696735

>>10696729
>M-muh successful people don't deserve success
>M-muh personal failures are actually just determinism

Pseudointellectual cope

>> No.10696736

>>10696723
You got me there. Almost. But his "intent" is just the basic nature of his mind, which is to seek out conflict. He did not chooses this. He was born with this. If we wished to switch it off, he would be unable to. Therefore he is a slave to this tendency. He has no freedom to transform himself into someone less confrontational. And why would he? He believes this is the best way to be. Because it is his way.

>> No.10696747

>>10696735
Please just read some Derk Pereboom. Blameworthiness and praiseworthiness are both figments of a social animal's imagination.

>> No.10696748

>>10696736
back to /his/ philosophag

>> No.10696749
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10696749

you subconscious mind has impulses and you conscious mind has the will power to choose to act on said impulse or not. what's so hard to understand?

>> No.10696756

>>10696691
am i stupid or did you write that wrong?

>> No.10696759

>>10696756
He wrote it wrong on purpose. That's the joke.

>> No.10696769

>>10696749
Self-control is definitely a real phenomenon. It doesn't account for freedom, though. It's just the degree to which your actions are controlled by your instinctual impulses, versus what little you have learned about the world in your short lifetime. It's nothing to write home about.

>> No.10696779

>>10696769
but if we didn't have free will we would only be instinctive and couldn't refuse are impulses. i disagree.

>> No.10696781

>>10696747
I think I'm going to choose not to do that, on account of
>American philospher

>> No.10696782

>>10696779
This is wrong. This is what learning is. It is drawing on memory to affect your behavior. You do not choose which memories you will acquire in your life. You have no choice over this, nor over how your behaviors will be affected by this.

>> No.10696787

>>10696779

Why do you think reasoning implies free will? It just implies greater computational complexity than you can rationalize. Your brain sends an impulse, your frontal lobe receives and performs a cost benefit analysis, you generate a response, this is is all fully within the scope of determinism, it's just that you don't understand it because the machine performing this action is the machine trying to rationalize it.

>> No.10696790

>>10696781
He is Dutch, but resides in the America States.

>> No.10696793

>>10696759
>le just pretending
I'm sure it was that way

>> No.10696816

>>10696782
free will is control of your own actions not control over reality itself.

>>10696787
i think reasoning implies free will because im given a list of options and i'm free to choose one, several or all.

>> No.10696833

>>10696816

You aren't "free", you make a choice, it's based off of factors beyond your perspective. "Free will" is just a catch all for the black box that is abstract human reasoning, beyond our current abilities.

We are descended from species that were far more basic than us and easier to break down as "deterministic". They took in inputs and their brains generated a limited reaction set based off of those. We're just a higher evolved, more complex form of that, inductively speaking, your "free will" is just an inability to currently break down the hard, static processes of the human mind down and trace every combination of inputs to outputs.

>> No.10696841

How about this, Free will is the person themselves choosing the option they want out of what's available, and all the options that come up are deterministic in nature due to being outside of the conscious being's control.
So basically we're not in control what happens to us in life, just how we react to each situation which leads to the next and so on and so forth. So the free choice determines the next set of choices to come up to set up the next free choice and so on from birth till death.

>> No.10696850

>>10696833
okay well now we're just twisting words.

Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. Free will is closely linked to the concepts of responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen. Wikipedia

and with that i do believe ill be signing off.

>> No.10696854

The mental gymnastics everyone has to go to to prove the existence of freedom is alone proof that there is no such thing. We don't like it. I get that. But just because you don't like a thing doesn't mean that it isn't true.

>> No.10696864

>>10696816
It's kinda hard to distinguish between reality and "your actions" since your actions fall within the bracket of reality.

>> No.10696887 [DELETED] 

>>10696850
nigger

>> No.10696900

>>10696850

You keep saying "free" and I keep telling you that it's just your brain, which is incapable of actually breaking down all of the millions and billions of inputs/outputs it processes, putting together a conceptual placeholder. You can quite literally trace our genetic line down to a rat-like creature which is way easier to analyze on a cognitive basis and "prove" is nothing more than a base being living a deterministic life without "spirit" or "freedom". It eats when the brain says hungry, it shits, it sleeps, it fucks, and it runs, and then it dies. The brain evolved, it built layer, upon layer, upon layer of complexity, but it's still the same switch at its root. It's the same way a neural network works in programming, adding layers of complexity to the point where we don't know exactly what is happening, we just know we can feed it input and get sophisticated responses.

>> No.10696903

why is this perpetually being debated?
like, why isn't this as straightforward as "an apple is an apple"?
no controversy.
no debate.
the fact that people shiv each other in the neck over this kinda shows that they don't know what is true.
"an orange is an orange."
who would shiv me in the neck over this statement?
no one.

>> No.10696969

>>10696691
>The most important reason you do not believe in free will is because it is a tough pill to swallow that you are a mere spectator of your own life.
The scientific consensus is that free will exists.

>> No.10696979

>>10696969
source?

>> No.10696996

>>10696979
>source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Believing_in_free_will
>Among philosophers
>A recent 2009 survey has shown that compatibilism is quite a popular stance among those who specialize in philosophy (59%). Belief in libertarianism amounted to 14%, while a lack of belief in free will equaled 12%. More than a half of surveyed people were US Americans.[214]

>Among evolutionary biologists
>79 percent of evolutionary biologists said that they believe in free-will according to a survey conducted in 2007, only 14 percent chose no free will, and 7 percent did not answer the question.[215]

The consensus is clear.

>> No.10697015

>>10696996
What about neuroscientists? Those are the only ones who matter. Yes, I know opinion is split among them too, but it's certainly not 80% in favor of free will. It's more like 50-50.

>> No.10697021

>>10696969
>696969

>> No.10697029

>>10697021
It's as good a sign as any that free will is real.

>> No.10697092

>>10697015
>What about neuroscientists?
Irrelevant.

>> No.10697179

OP seems to have fucked up but anyway
It's funny as fuck that's Bells inequalities has these premises and one of them is 'free will exists'. like
>duhhh i'm an advanced physicist working at the highest echelons of intellect and mind bending math, thinking specifically about the nature of reality and how out intuitions don't hold up but buhhh of course humans have some magic spark inside them that means their intention operates outside physics buhhh

>> No.10697217

>>10697179
>Strawmanning Bell's Theorem

Free will only comes up when he's describing superdeterminism, the one possible way to construct a hidden variable theory by simply having EVERY seemingly-random outcome be predetermined at the start of the universe, implicitly also destroying free will. The rest of it is purely grounded in physical arguments

>> No.10697222

>>10696729
Another reason to believe in free will is resistance to brainwashing.

>> No.10697227

>>10697217
why is that called superdeterminism when that's implied by plain determinism?

>> No.10697239

>>10697227
>1930s
Hm, I wonder, could it have something to do with the religious situation at the time making soft determinism the default position?

>> No.10697248

>>10696854
uhhhh

>> No.10697285

>>10696691
This isn't science.
>>>/his/

>> No.10698247

>>10696691
HEY FAGGOT OP I REMEMBER THE LAST TIME YOU MADE THIS SHITTY THREAD YOU DELETED IT AFTER I LAUGHED AT YOU BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT THAT FREE WILL HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH SELF CONTROL.

I SEE YOU'RE STILL AT IT AGAIN, POSTING THE SAME STUPID SHIT SLIGHTLY REPHRASED!

EAT SHIT AND DIE YOU STUPID CUNT!

>> No.10698255

>>10696691
>ITT: Cowards & Lazies self-justifying

>> No.10698376

>>10697227
Superdeterminism is classical, but determinism can be non-classical (many worlds).

>> No.10698418

>>10696850
>Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded
No its not you dolt, for the purposes of this conversation its the ability to create circumstances that shouldnt follow from the previous world state.
>Free will is closely linked to the concepts of responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen.
I have a surprise for you, this is not a self evident pov and is hotly contested in philosophy.

When you figure out a way to reconcile causality with free will, publish and collect your nobel.

>> No.10698425

>>10697092
>Neuroscience is irrelevant vis a vis the human condition
So you believe in magic then?
Man you are a new level of idiot.