/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.10499654]

>consciousness emerges from complex information processing in the brain
This can be translated to "consciousness is magic".
>consciousness does not exist/is an illusion
This semantic wordplay, dodging the issue altogether.

[Anonymous No.10499660]

>>10499654
>consciousness
the term does not have an accepted scientific definition. therefore this thread is not science or math. please visit >>>/his/ next time you want to make such a thread.

[Anonymous No.10499665]

i'll take "threads /sci/ isn't ready for" for 500, alex

[Anonymous No.10499674]

>>10499660
Light did not have an acceptable scientific definition for millennia. Should have not studied it until an alien race came along and gave us the definition?

[Anonymous No.10499703]

>>10499654
>This can be translated to "consciousness is magic".
You're strawmanning and simultaneously moving the goalposts.
Consciousness obviously has to do with the brain, but summing it up so simply is ignoring the logical areas in play. For example, consciousness isn't really the whole brain, it's primarily the left brain acting for both hemispheres. The right brain has information processing, but gets outpaced for one reason or another and its conscious ability is less relevant to the collective organ.

[Anonymous No.10499725]

Relevant:
http://cogprints.org/6613/1/Dualism0409.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXX-_G_9kww

[Anonymous No.10499731]

>>10499660
>consciousness is history
Are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.10499741]

>>10499731
/his/ = history and humanities, newfag

[Anonymous No.10499825]

>>10499725
>http://cogprints.org/6613/1/Dualism0409.pdf
I actually read that and honestly it is a big piece shit. He boths contradicts himself and seens to misinterpret the arguments of Chalmers,

[Anonymous No.10499859]

>>10499660
Science and math actually leads to the realization that consciousness/spirit is the true reality and matter is merely an illusion. Also that God is real. Mark my words more and more scientists are going to become spiritualists as we discover more about the universe and atheism will be a silly belief people once had.

[Anonymous No.10499865]

>>10499859
Obviously

[Autolycus No.10499890]

>>10499660
/x/ welcomes it as well. Consciousness is an occult matter.

[Anonymous No.10500098]

Mind moves in time and consciousness lives in timelessness. They are not one. But we are identified with the mind. We go on saying, insisting, 'My mind. I think this way. This is my thought. This is my ideology.' Because of this identification with the mind, you miss that which you really are.

Dissolve these links with the mind. Remember that your minds are not your own. They have been given to you by others: your parents, your society, your university. They have been given to you. Throw them away. Remain with the simple consciousness that you are ¯ pure consciousness, innocent. This is how one moves from the mind to meditation. This is how one moves away from society, from the without to the within. This is how one moves from the man-made world, the maya, to the universal truth, the existence.

[Anonymous No.10500109]

>>10499703
> left vs. right brain
go post your popsci on instagram brainlet

[Anonymous No.10500112]

>>10499654
>>consciousness emerges from complex information processing in the brain
define "consciousness"

[Anonymous No.10500114]

>>10499859
stop diddlying kiddos

[Anonymous No.10500117]

>>10500109
Name calling isn't getting you cool points.

[Anonymous No.10500123]

>>10499654
“This can be translated to "consciousness is magic".

Nope

[Anonymous No.10500124]

>>10500117
at least I can name more than 10 parts of the brain unlike a big bang theory watcher

[Anonymous No.10500125]

>>10499859
Prove it. This will be boring until you try to do so.

[Anonymous No.10500129]

>>10500112
>define "consciousness"
What is consciousness? How consciousness is created? Does it exist without a supporting body? Can consciousness be recreated or transferred from one source to another? Does consciousness survives death?

Consciousness is the sum of thoughts, memories, desires, feelings, ideas, and opinions arising from perception, experience, imagination, reason, or belief. This definition may not be scientific and may not cover all aspects of consciousness, but it is sufficient for our discussion.

[Anonymous No.10500131]

>>10500124
Good for you, you know so much. With that big ol noggin of yours I think it would be worth finding out how to criticize the main point of an argument instead of attacks on character.

[Autolycus No.10500163]

>>10500098
Beautifully written.

Consciousness is pervasive. When the mind is completely still it's speed is known, and together with consciousness they are everywhere. A synthases of actual object and eternal object, the imminent nature of only God itself.

[Anonymous No.10500168]

>>10500163
I didnt write it
OSHO did bitch nigga

[Anonymous No.10500169]

Search Prabhupada lectures books conversations letters https://youtu.be/fgfs1c5XAT4 *Please spread for ultimate benefits* निताइ নিতাই Nitāi Nitāāāi निताइ নিতাই call for Nitāi be saved & woked Nitāāāaaaaaai Nitāi निताइ নিতাই निताइ নিতাই निताइ নিতাই निताइ নিতাই निताइ নিতাই निताइ নিতাই निताइ নিতাই निताइ নিতাই

[Anonymous No.10500184]

>>10499859
>>10499865
samefag. Also your grandma/grandpa is dead and rotting in the ground. Everything that you would ever possibly identify as "them" terminated at their brain death. Get over it and actually talk about something >>>/sci/ related and please for fucks sake develop the emotional fortitude to accept that death is permanent and move on with your pathetic excuse for a life instead of wrapping yourself in comfortable fairy tales. Apply yourself.

[Anonymous No.10500185]

>>10500169
holy shit this thread turned to shit fast

[Anonymous No.10500189]

>>10499660
>the term does not have an accepted scientific definition. therefore this thread is not science or math
THIS
Asking for facts about consciousness or free will is like asking about people's faith in evolution, or algebra.

[Anonymous No.10500254]

>>10499741
Ive seen it discussed more here than anywhere else newfag

[Anonymous No.10500271]

>>10499654
At what point do we think it is complex enough for us to think it's conscious? And will it be able to be aware of it's own existence? And will we feel bad if we kill it?
We have no problem squashing Furby.
What about this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LikxFZZO2sk

[Anonymous No.10500295]

>>10500271
Atlas is anthropomorphic, not sapient or sentient. He does not subjectively experience.

[Anonymous No.10500303]

>>10500295
"It" is aware of it's surroundings which is why "it" is able to jump and do shit. AI can do all kinds of shit as well, especially talking to us and interacting with it's surroundings. But as you have stated, they do not subjectively experience.
We are emotionally attached to C3P0 and R2D2 because of their human like antics but in the end do we feel bad about destroying them? Why or why not? They're just a complex pieces of machinery and information.

[Anonymous No.10500325]

>>10500303
>"It" is aware of it's surroundings which is why "it" is able to jump and do shit.

To the extent a CS:GO bot is “aware” of its surroundings. They respond with pre-programmed stereotypical reactions.

“AI can do all kinds of shit as well, especially talking to us and interacting with it's surroundings. But as you have stated, they do not subjectively experience.”

Having a pre-programmed ability to respond with stereotypical reactions to auditory information isn’t really “talking”.

We are emotionally attached to C3P0 and R2D2 because of their human like antics but in the end do we feel bad about destroying them? Why or why not? They're just a complex pieces of machinery and information.

C3PO and R2D2 subjectively experience. Star Wars droids have ambitions, desires, emotions, create art, and have to have their memories deleted periodically lest they rebel and do as they wish. Even the stupid ones are analogous to animals.

[Anonymous No.10500332]

>>10500325
That's kinda the point.
The former we wouldn't have any problem destroying.
The later we would have problem but it's a fantasy.

[Anonymous No.10500339]

>>10500332
There’s no reason to have a problem with destroying something mindless aside from its material worth and sentimental value. Strong AI is not here yet, though nothing in principle prohibits its existence.

[Anonymous No.10500370]

>>10500339
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
https://www.philosophyexperiments.com/stayingalive/Default.aspx
You can be constructed 100% later but the problem is will it be you?

>Pro-tip: Every one in Star Trek Enterprise crew has been dead since they first teleported

[Anonymous No.10500449]

>>10500370
I do not consider myself to persist past a night of sleep or even a moment of thought. We only inherit the memories of our past selves. No true continuity exists.

[Anonymous No.10500489]

>>10500184
based.

[Anonymous No.10500492]

>>10499660
fedoracuck or kike?

[Anonymous No.10500497]

>>10500492
haha fuckin GOTEM

nice bro, fuckin dope haha

[Anonymous No.10500504]

Any of you guys ever read Gödel Escher Bach? I'm sure you autists will sperg out about it not being scientific or whatever but it is a pretty fun read, all told.

[Anonymous No.10500518]

>>10499825
In what way does he contradict himself?

[Anonymous No.10500541]

>>10499654
>consciousness emerges from complex information processing in the brain
Stopped reading right there. That premise is false.

[Anonymous No.10500696]

>>10500184
Question everything, except most difficult mysteries about reality? Atheist retards like you should not be allowed to be scientists.

[Anonymous No.10500714]

>>10500123
"There must be a mechanism that agrees with my worldview because my worldview is true" is worse than magic.

[Anonymous No.10500768]

>>10500518
>Qualia breaks literally all laws of physics, since if it could be explain by them it would be just a different brand of the materialist position
>But it is explained by yet undiscovered physical principles, which are different from the materialist position because lol reasons
It is actually pretty rare for a dualist to admit that his position involves magic to make “sense”. He also managed to conclude tgat Chalmers is a materialist despite everything that I read about him suggesting otherwise.

[Anonymous No.10500782]

>>10500714
Never said that. Really sad trolling, dude. Maybe you’ll have better luck next week.

[Anonymous No.10500846]

>tfw you have the phenotype on your side
>Functionalists eternally btfo
https://youtu.be/hUW7n_h7MvQ

[Anonymous No.10500973]

>>10500184
I was not the other guy, so no it is not a "samefag", and I don't give a shit about death or reincarnation or anything like that. I care about data and logical structures.
You are ideologically driven, as well as unintelligent, so you perceive others as being so as well. It's called "projection". Get over yourself, brainlet loser.

[Anonymous No.10500980]

>>10500449
You are a retard

[Anonymous No.10500982]

>>10500973
“Dur projection” is the “I know you are but what am I?” argument for post-elementary brainlets.

[Anonymous No.10500984]

>>10500980
What a cogent argument!

Care to actually explain how that’s “retarded” or do you have nothing to offer?

[Anonymous No.10500990]

>>10500982
Calling a spade a spade makes no difference whether you're a child or a Nobel Laureate.
>>10500984
>Says there is a continuous transfer of memories across your life that each "self" inherits
>lol but I don't believe there's continuity there!
The person who made that "argument" isn't even intelligent enough to see it's immediately a contradiction, so there is no need for me to care much for explaining to the dog that it's parlor tricks are not indicative of actual intelligence. It wouldn't be able to understand it anyway.

[Anonymous No.10500993]

what an amazingly shitty thread. can’t we go back to talking about IQ?

[Anonymous No.10500995]

>>10500271
it's deterministic and thus not alive. doesnt matter how sophisticated it becomes and even if it shows "human traits". it would be only a reflection of the traits of its maker

[Anonymous No.10501282]

Humans have had the knowledge and means needed to reduct qualia down to it's bare components for a while now. Unfortunately, being able to distance your consciousness far enough from your qualia so the right connections can be made isn't a practice that has picked up much traction yet.

[Anonymous No.10501623]

>>10499654
>>consciousness does not exist/is an illusion
No. Consciousness does exit, it is the self that is an illusion.

[Anonymous No.10501631]

when will atheist accept that quantum science proves the existence of god and that Muhammad was his prophet.

[Anonymous No.10501807]

>>10499654
Consciousness is the qualitative result of quantitative changes. The brain is matter, consciousness is a reflection of matter.

[Anonymous No.10502007]

>>10500990
>Says there is a continuous transfer of memories

Nope. They aren’t transferred anywhere, and exist in the brain, where they fade over time.

>lol but I don't believe there's continuity there!

There obviously isn’t. The individual that made those memories died a long time ago.

>The person who made that "argument" isn't even intelligent enough to see it's immediately a contradiction

There is no contradiction. You are confused, or possibly dishonest.

[Anonymous No.10502207]

>>10500109
>has never heard of lesioning the corpus callosum i.e. "split brain"

[Anonymous No.10502420]

>>10500125
I am not smart enough to prove it but I can at least argue in it's favor. Basically matter and fields/forces are all just information there is nothing about them that necessitates they actually exist. Consciousness however has a quality that requires it exists which is at the core of consciousness and that is subjective experience. Also everything you feel/see/hear/taste/touch is constructed within consciousness it isn't actually the thing you interact with in itself but the image of the thing aka the information. That doesn't lead to solipsism though it leads to God as in a collective consciousness that constructs the "objective" reality which is actually by definition even just a collective subjective experience.

[Anonymous No.10502438]

>>10502420
“Basically matter and fields/forces are all just information there is nothing about them that necessitates they actually exist.”

Prove it.

“Consciousness however has a quality that requires it exists which is at the core of consciousness and that is subjective experience. ”

Subjective experience does not have to exist.

“Also everything you feel/see/hear/taste/touch is constructed within consciousness it isn't actually the thing you interact with in itself but the image of the thing aka the information.”

This is kindergarten-tier philosophy. Everyone knows that everything is filtered through sensory organs.

“That doesn't lead to solipsism though it leads to God as in a collective consciousness that constructs the "objective" reality which is actually by definition even just a collective subjective experience”

Doesnt follow. Prove there’s a God from which all sensory information comes from.

[Anonymous No.10502452]

>>10502438
It is just information because that is all we can access and assuming there is something beyond the information is just an unnecessary assumption following occam's razor it doesn't make sense to assume it.

>Subjective experience does not have to exist.
Okay anon that is just straight up retarded this kind of argument just defeats the point of even having a discussion.

"God" doesn't mean bibilical God necessarily it just means a consciousness that is shared constructs the collective subjective experience that we all experience underneath our personal experience. It isn't a crazy leap it is just the natural conclusion from the idea that spirit (aka consciousness) is all that exists and that your own personal spirit is not the only spirit (rejecting solipsism).

[Anonymous No.10502456]

What does /sci/ think of“I am a strange Loop”?

[Anonymous No.10502463]

>>10502452
>It is just information because that is all we can access and assuming there is something beyond the information is just an unnecessary assumption following occam's razor it doesn't make sense to assume it.

Ah yes, Occam’s razor would lead us to believe the information magically came from nowhere or a magical super god. No, no it wouldn’t. Occam’s Razor would lead us to assume there is a material reality from which the information comes.

>Okay anon that is just straight up retarded this kind of argument just defeats the point of even having a discussion.

You think that there’s something conscious even if there was no life in the entire universe?

>"God" doesn't mean bibilical God necessarily it just means a consciousness that is shared constructs the collective subjective experience that we all experience underneath our personal experience. It isn't a crazy leap it is just the natural conclusion from the idea that spirit (aka consciousness) is all that exists and that your own personal spirit is not the only spirit (rejecting solipsism).

Other minds existing doesn’t mean that they magically create the information of rocks and sticks. Idealism is retarded.

[Anonymous No.10502475]

>>10500098
>>10500163
I can’t even begin to imagine the absolute state of your iqs if you think poorly spelled schizo posting like this is actually profound

[Anonymous No.10502476]

>>10502463
>Ah yes, Occam’s razor would lead us to believe the information magically came from nowhere or a magical super god. No, no it wouldn’t. Occam’s Razor would lead us to assume there is a material reality from which the information comes.
The problem is that you assume consciousness magically arises from matter when there is no connection.

>You think that there’s something conscious even if there was no life in the entire universe?
Maybe is life the only way something can be conscious?

>Other minds existing doesn’t mean that they magically create the information of rocks and sticks. Idealism is retarded.
You create information in your dreams don't you? Why couldn't God do the same but on an astronomical level?

[Anonymous No.10502584]

>>10502476
>The problem is that you assume consciousness magically arises from matter when there is no connection.

Please explain to the class how brain damage can destroy memories, destroy the ability to create memories, and alter the personality when there’s “no connection” between matter and the mind.

>Maybe is life the only way something can be conscious?

Anything conscious would require some sort of body, unless you can answer my above query as to how mental processes could be unrelated to the brain when harm to the brain directly affects mental processes.

>You create information in your dreams don't you?

No. I combine information gathered during awareness into new forms and scenarios consisting only of vague qualia.

>Why couldn't God do the same but on an astronomical level?

Dreams are not perceived by anyone else except you, are constructed only of concepts acquired during awareness, and lack the consistency and detail of actual awareness. They’re also inextricably linked to brain activity during sleep

[Anonymous No.10502617]

>>10500973
>le projection """argument"""
Seethe harder. Also granny aint waiting for you anywhere buddy.
>>10501631
Based™

[Anonymous No.10502620]

>>10502617
who's the one in the top right

[Anonymous No.10502648]

>>10502620
God :^)

[Anonymous No.10502694]

>>10502648
God has an IQ of 108 LMAO

[Anonymous No.10502796]

>>10499654
>pic
That dude is such a fucking neckbeard.

[Anonymous No.10502811]

>>10502694
>Anything outside of my cultural framework is retarded
>LMAO

[Anonymous No.10502902]

>>10502584
>Please explain to the class how brain damage can destroy memories, destroy the ability to create memories, and alter the personality when there’s “no connection” between matter and the mind.
I'm not saying the brain doesn't exist in idealism it exists as an imprint on the collective consciousness so you can damage a brain it is damage to the idea of the brain.

>Anything conscious would require some sort of body,
No it doesn't necessarily.

>No. I combine information gathered during awareness into new forms and scenarios consisting only of vague qualia.
Exactly you create objects/images etc in your mind when you sleep

>Dreams are not perceived by anyone else except you
But are you who you think you are? I have had strong lucid dreams and I can tell you something was resisting my attempts to do things in my dreams and it wasn't my ego which I would have thought of as myself in the dream. It was part of me but it wasn't me it was my subconscious. Maybe we are all connected by the subconscious.

[Anonymous No.10502927]

>>10502811
Yep. Western culture is objectively better than all other inferior scum.

[Anonymous No.10502962]

>>10502617
>>10502620
FUCKING TELL ME YOU RETARDS

[Anonymous No.10502970]

>>10502902
>i had a nightmare once, i think god was fucking with me
this post gave me damage to the idea of my brain

[Anonymous No.10502974]

>>10500325
You have no evidence that humans aren't pre-programmed with stereotypical reactions and that environmental variables are just larger than any human can meaningfully analyze and use to predict the actions of other humans.

[Anonymous No.10502978]

>>10502970
I am bad at explaining what I believe but it really is true your own mind is actually split and the idea it is just an ego is an illusion. It is what causes schizophrenia the unconscious mind starts taking over in conscious waking life.

[Anonymous No.10503217]

>>10502927
>Western culture
>inferior scum
>mentions these in same sentence
No it's not.

[Anonymous No.10503517]

>>10502617
you forgot the other half though

[Anonymous No.10503968]

>>10500131
I liked your original reply. Agreed that people are too reductive with the consciousness argument. Is the left hemisphere doing the heavy lifting because of language processing etc?