Mathematical Platonism

[Anonymous No.10389603]

If every number exists in a Platonic Realm of Forms, then every thing computable — which can be represented as a long number comprised of 0s and 1s — also exists there, eternal and unchanging.

Every idea, every thought, every book, every photo, every video, everything that ever was, everything that was not, eveything that will be and won't be, everything that could be. All as numbers.

There is a number in the Platonic realm that contains in its 0s and 1s every scientific law and truth.

[Anonymous No.10389613]

unverifiable claim

[Anonymous No.10389617]

>>10389603
Is the number which encodes all computable objects comuptable?

[Anonymous No.10389730]

>>10389603
You're taking the platonism part very literally. I personally believe that mathematical laws and numbers exist as the set of all logically true statements derived from constant axioms. This set is baked into the fabric of our universe, and in that sense "exists"

[Anonymous No.10389740]

>>10389603
>There is a number in the Platonic realm that contains in its 0s and 1s every scientific law and truth.
You may as well cut out the middleman and just jump straight to the form of the Good.
>>10389730
Read Kant. Mathematical laws arise from our intuited concepts of space and time, which apply to sense-data to give rise to our experience. However, these intuited concepts have no necessary grounding in things-in-themselves, and so mathematical laws have no necessary reference to the "fabric of the universe" or any such thing; they are merely required to hold for any object of experience, of objects for-us rather than in-themselves.

[Anonymous No.10389750]

I think what Plato tried to say, is that in the platonic realm exist ideas of things in their pure form.
For example take music. What is music really? It is kind of hard to grasp what music is, we can make songs, play instruments but the abstract idea of what makes music music, exists in the platonic realm and our mind can't really grasp it.

Now numbers are very interesting and unique as ideas, because they ONLY exist in the platonic realm. There are no numbers in the real world and our brain is incapable of conceiving or describing a number. What is a 2, or a 3? Nobody knows, nobody can explain it, but everyone can show you two oranges, or various representations of the number 2.
This is different from other ideas, like for example music. I can show you a song and tell you this IS music. It might not be the abstract idea of music, but it IS music.
But if I show you two oranges, I can't say this is 2. Because these are oranges, not 2. So numbers don't actually exist in our real world, but everyone knows what they are, so they must exist "somewhere".
It's just an example Plato uses, to prove his conception. Don't take it too literally and become a sophist. Try to grasp the essence of what he is trying to say and you will see it makes a lot of sense.

[Anonymous No.10389755]

>>10389603
>, then every thing computable — which can be represented as a long number comprised of 0s and 1s — also exists there, eternal and unchanging.
>>10389603
What are axioms such as addition in this platonic realm?
A correspondence between two infinite sets?

[Anonymous No.10389984]

>>10389603
>then every thing computable
Does not follow.

>There is a number in the Platonic realm that contains in its 0s and 1s every scientific law and truth.
Pretty much any normal number.

[Anonymous No.10390003]

>>10389603
>There is a number in the Platonic realm that contains in its 0s and 1s every scientific law and truth.
Wouldn't this sum just be part of a bigger sum, ad infinitum?

Sounds like you can't prove it.

[Anonymous No.10390029]

>>10389603
That is actually true .The thing is that a a priori Argument for matter can never be made as all the a priori axioms are immaterial (the ego ,logic ,platonic forms etc) and if a material conclusion arises from immaterial premises that's a non sequitur. Now a a posteriori Argument for matter is just circular as it pressuposes a reality and denies the possibility of solipcism or Idealism .This way materialism will never meat the burden of proof so platonic idealism all the way .

[Anonymous No.10390299]

>>10390029
And I'll take that even further due to the PSR everything must have a explanation for its existence .Now if a immaterial to material explanation is not possible but the things outside do have a explanation for their existance then the things outside are also immaterial and so ideas or platonic forms .

[Anonymous No.10390509]

>>10389740
>Jump to the Form of the Good
You could, but I want to show that even accepting a minimal Platonism of just mathematics and numbers actually grants a radically extensive Platonic ontology to almost everything, including forms of particulars, because the binary numbers that can represent almost all things will exist there.

An example:
>If Half Life 3 existed its code would be a long number of 0s and 1s
>Every long number of 0s and 1s exists in the Platonic realm along with every other number
>Therefore Half-Life 3 exists in the Platonic Realm
>As does Half-Life 4, 5 & 6, Half-Life ARPG, Half-Life MMO, Half-Life Battle Arena, and so on ad infinitum.

>Kant
Does Kant have a theory of nature? He just brackets it off and says it's not possible to know.

[Anonymous No.10390511]

>>10389750
>But if I show you two oranges, I can't say this is 2. Because these are oranges, not 2.
Twoness inheres in them and they inhere in twoness. That's what forms do, the exist as One form that inheres in Many particulars.

[Anonymous No.10390513]

>>10389603
>then everything computable
Prove it

[Anonymous No.10390519]

>>10389740
You suggest reading Kant as though the matter is solved rather than hotly debated topic by many schools of thought - notably the one we're discussing. Also various parts of simple math have been reproduced independently of humans in animals, so go fuck yourself with your "math comes from human intuition" argument.

[Anonymous No.10390521]

>>10389755
Does it need addition for everything to exist in the Platonic realm? The sum of anything you add together will already exist there as a number amongst every other number in an absolutely infinite and uncountable domain.

Mathematic Platonism and Platonism proper would say it contains all formal causes in mathematics.

[Anonymous No.10390527]

>>10390003
No because science is a limited field, not the set of all truth and knowledge, or of all formal causes. So a number with all scientific truths encoded in 0s and 1s would exist there because it would terminate where science terminates.

The totality of every number with every form represented in it would be absolutely infinite and uncountable, but it would still be a number, and all numbers exist in the Platonic realm.

[Anonymous No.10390532]

>>10389984
Expand it to "anything that can be represented by any number."

I wanted to demonstrate that even a minimal Platonism limitd to numbers will include a form of almost everything and have a radically extensive Platonic ontology granted just by the numbers themselves.

[Anonymous No.10390538]

>>10390509
>If Half Life 3 existed its code would be a long number of 0s and 1s
If Half Life 3 existed where? If you mean in the physical realm, then wouldn't the code essentially be electromagnetism rather than numbers?

[Anonymous No.10390540]

>>10390513
Because they can be represented as a number.
All numbers exist in the Platonic realm.
Therefore all things that can be represented by numbers exist in the Platonic realm.

[Anonymous No.10390552]

>>10390538
Immaterial forms inhere in material particulars, and material particulars participate in immaterial forms. The (future) material Half-Life 3 participates in the form of the immaterial 0s and 1s of the Platonic realm of forms.

All forms exist outside of time and space, even a minimal Platonism of just numbers or maths actually contains the forms of almost all particulars, because the number that represents them e.g. the long number of 0s and 1s that HL3 would be, already exist there.

[Anonymous No.10390554]

>>10389603
Ok, but then there is the beauty of interpretation. Like the brainstorm green needle thing. The same 0s and 1s, 2 completely different interpretations.

[Anonymous No.10390567]

>>10390511
Yes they inhere from many but they also have a dominant form.
There is nothing in this world whose main form is a number.
But for most other things there is a thing which mainly inheres from their form.
For example a song might inhere from many forms but the main form is music.
An orange might inhere from many forms but the main one is that of orange.
But nothing mainly inheres from a number. A 2 is just a symbol. It's main form is that of symbols and only secondarily is its twoness.
This is why a different race which does not know the symbolism will not understand the twoness but will instantly understand the orangeness in an orange or the musicness of a song.
This is why numbers are so special. I have thought about it and I can't find anything quite like them.

[Anonymous No.10390571]

>>10390552
Wouldn't this require the material and immaterial to map together perfectly? In essence, making them indistinguishable from each other as there can be no separation.

[Anonymous No.10390577]

>>10390554
Yes that is a problem, the same number in some cases will have to represent different things. Like with words in a dictionary an additional ordinal number could be added, so you have Definition 1 of Number X, and then Definition 2 of Number X, and so on. But that does lose much of the simplicity of this mimimal Platonism because why should the ordinal ordering be one way and not the other? For the ordinals to make sense it would have to be in an order, but there isn't a good reason to preference one ordering scheme over any other.

[Anonymous No.10390602]

>>10389613
Maybe he autocited himself .... we ll never know

[Anonymous No.10390612]

>>10390571
Yes Platonism is properly a Realism with one-world physics of both forms and matter together in a common nature. The hylo-mophic concept of form and matter, and the resulting division into two worlds with two different substances, one immaterial and the other material, is an addition from Aristotle. In Platonism matter isn't a substance, it's a receptacle.

[Anonymous No.10390621]

>>10389617
As long as it is any number it will exist.

[Anonymous No.10390672]

>>10390567
I don't think a dominant form prevents real participation in other forms, but you're getting a similar problem as this>>10390554, that numbers are signs or symbols of forms, rather than the signified forms themselves. Numbers are instrumental causes of forms, a type of tool forms use, rather then the formal causes themselves. The number code for Half-Life 3 isn't the form of HL3, its an instrument for the form of HL3.

[Anonymous No.10390731]

>>10390519
Those parts of math are simply animal intuition, ya dingus.

[Anonymous No.10390922]

>>10389603
Didn't godel already assign a prime number to almost everything .Just get a code which can convert prime numbers into 1s and 0s and OP is correct

[Anonymous No.10390936]

>>10390731
Ah logic or maths has to exist independently of humans or even conscious animals .Take the statement "at the time of the big bang there was no life " no also the state that "all propositions are proved by some sort of logic " then formulate a Argument .

P1. All propositions are true or false based on logic
P2.The proposition that "that there were no life at the time of the big bang ' is true in some possibilities worlds
P3 .In those possible worlds there are no alive creatures
C.Logic exists independent of humans


Also I would buy into what >>10390029
And >>10390299 is saying

[Anonymous No.10390947]

>>10390612
Which world would the conscious experience of playing Half Life 3 exist in? Is subjective awareness material or immaterial?

[Anonymous No.10390983]

>>10390936
Learn to speak English properly, your post is illegible.
Your premises do not imply C, as the logical judgment isn't being performed in a possible world without creatures but in this world with creatures, with the creatureless world merely the content of that judgment.

[Anonymous No.10391117]

>>10390983
C is implied since if I can prove a statement true independent of humans and P1 is correct then logic exists independence of humans .All propositions are either true or false same with this one, now I said "at the time of the big bang " but I really could've just said "where there is no life " it's all the same .The core logical laws and so logic itself does exist outside of human life because if you imply the negation of that statement then it would lead to contradictions .In a world with now logic you can't know anything about the world as you rationalise only with logic .But things can be known of worlds were humans don't exist so what does that mean ? Or do you assume that when all humans die contradictory statements start being true ,the law of identity is no longer true etc .No because the law of identity and the law of non contradiction are necessary truths which exist in all possible worlds at all times so even in the ones with us .The negation of this literally leads to contradictions .

[Anonymous No.10391123]

y'all niggas should read pic related

[Anonymous No.10391197]

>>10390983
>C is implied since if I can prove a statement true independent of humans and P1 is correct then logic exists independence of humans
But you haven't done this. You only proved a given statement about a creatureless world was true, but you proved it in a human world. For your argument to hold it needs to be proven in a humanless context; you only proved a sentence of humanless content.
>Or do you assume that when all humans die contradictory statements start being true ,the law of identity is no longer true etc
You wouldn't be able to tell. As soon as you identify the statement as contradictory, you're doing so through a human lens, and the world is no longer humanless.

[Anonymous No.10391563]

>>10390947
You could consider Platonic realism as a type of materialism where the material is forces and ideas (forms). There is a realm of being, which is eternal and unchanging, and a realm of becoming, which is subject to time, change, and participation of non-being. The material of both realms are forces and ideas. The subjective experience of HL3 would take part in both realms, primarily in the realm of becoming, but as all particulars become by participating in their form that is in the realm of being, likewise playing involves the form of HL3 descending from the realm of being into the realm of becoming. The players mind is a bridge between being world and becoming world. Plontinus would say the mind exists in both realms, most/all other Platonists would say the mind is in the realm of becoming and can access the realm of being from here.

[Anonymous No.10391590]

>>10390922
He was also a Platonist/mathematical realist.

[Anonymous No.10391649]

>>10389603
The diagonal length of a square made up of side lengths 1s and 0s cannot be represented as a finite string of any digits. You are forced to either demonstrate the geometry or reference it with a 'square root.'

[Anonymous No.10391852]

>>10391197
So basically you are asking for me to solve hard solipsism which even the best Philosophers can't do .No one can prove an external world exists without humans and that includes logic .Now Are you a biocentrist ? Because that would be the logical position with the level of skepticism you give to these claims .
>You can't tell
Ah so perfect but still means that the creatureless world is in a state of you can't "tell" rather then well creatureless so that violates the law of non contradiction which is a necessary truths so it's true in all possible worlds. The only way for your claim about the creatureless world to not violate the law of non contradiction is for it to be actually creatureless .And I'm not including us not being able to see it for what it is .It's literally in the premise that the world is creatureless .

[Anonymous No.10391877]

>>10389603
Does all anime exist there too? Can I watch it all?

[Anonymous No.10391891]

>>10389603
Do non-computable things exist there too? Paradoxes too?

[Anonymous No.10391894]

>>10391877
Yes. All anime that will ever exist, and all anime that will not ever exist, exists in the Platonic realm as a number.

[Anonymous No.10391898]

>>10390540
This isn’t necessarily correct though. This is desperately what Plato wanted but it’s not mutually inclusive with Platonism

[Anonymous No.10391900]

>>10391649
But that isn't an issue. An infinite number is still a number, all numbers exist in the Platonic realm.

[Anonymous No.10391909]

>>10391891
I'm guessing yes, but want to keep it simple by excluding the harder things and showing how expansive a simple Platonic ontology limited to numbers actually is.

[Anonymous No.10391913]

>>10391898
Explain your objection.

[Anonymous No.10391916]

>>10390936
>>10390936
>propositions are proved by some sort of logic
Proof is a social construct though. If proposition looks true then we say it was proved by logic. If it false then we say no luck.

[Anonymous No.10391921]

>>10391909
If paradoxes exist, wouldn't that imply that inconsistency can exist objectively. That's quite counterintuitive and contrary to material world.

[Anonymous No.10391963]

>>10391649
Indeed, any representation of a "number" using anything other than a finite string of decimal digits should be banned. Who really needs slashes and decimal points, like in 1/2 or 0.5? Please get rid of this unholyness. Not to mention abominations like 1x10^6.

[Anonymous No.10392090]

>>10391921
It would. I don't know what the Platonic treatment of paradoxes is desu senpai.