/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.10312499]

do birds learn to build nests or are they born knowing how to build nests?

[Anonymous No.10312505]

>>10312499
Young birds build shittier nests. But all birds build nests. It is a mix of nature and experience.

[Anonymous No.10312515]

>>10312505
It doesn't matter if the nest is shity.

if a bird is isolated from other birds of its kind from birth and put in a controlled environment similar to the one its species inhabits in the wild will it still build a nest?

[Anonymous No.10312607]

>>10312515
Yes.
It's probably the same as singing: a bird isolated from his specie will still be able to sing, but his singing skills will be much worse than a bird free in the wild, this proves that there are innate behaviors, but experience still plays a major role in modifying and perfecting those behaviors in birds. It's an old ethology experiment.

[Anonymous No.10312610]

>>10312499
>not the amd version
fuck off

[Anonymous No.10312626]

>almost all species that are distinct in that they build a structure or utilize a specific tool are born with this knowledge

Why aren't humans born with knowledge of fire starting?

I mean we're born with predisposition to like fire. People naturally/instinctively stare at it for long periods of time but don't have knowledge of starting fires. (protip: this is why TV is so popular. literal hearth has been replaced with digital hearth) Did humans have this instinctual knowledge at one point and we eventually lost it or bred it out of ourselves due to pyromaniacs instinctively starting random fire in villages?

[Anonymous No.10312682]

>>10312607

Where is your evidence to back up your claim? Singing or more accurately random noise (that is later on attuned to harmonization) is a biological innate feature. The ability to build a "nest" is not. Birds have the ability to cluster random foliage together but the structure of the "nest" itself does not seem to be programmed from birth.

How do you show that the structure that is the nest is not learned via their experience of constructed reality when they were a chick? The chick could easily internalize the experience of the structure that is their childhood resting/ eating place and later on recreate the structure from memory as a way revisit that memory and place it's babies in as a self-determined safe place.

I say this because I highly doubt that a bird like the social weaver (even as a group when isolated from birth) could recreate this structure in pic without some passed down experience/memory system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociable_weaver

By the way this structure also has thorns placed in multiple spots of the entrance holes. How would a bird innate understand security via thorns? This structure also allows birds of other species to nest as well on top of the structure. Were does the biologically innate behavior come into play to allow other species to commune with your own kind ?

[Anonymous No.10312701]

>>10312682
So do bees learn to build beehives and do they learn to dance in order to tell other bees the direction of flowers and shit?
Or do you think it's just a genetic adaptation?

I doubt bees can even "learn" in any significant sense.

[Anonymous No.10312756]

>>10312701
>So do bees learn to build beehives and do they learn to dance in order to tell other bees the direction of flowers and shit?

Yes, research involving mushroom body brains of insects such as honey bees shows that the sensory experience they receive during flight activity is incorporated in their dance and hive location via memorization.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0000371

>Or do you think it's just a genetic adaptation?

Research shows there is a genetic basis but mostly in how the brain structure is formed in caste breakdown. I don't remember where the link for it was but I know it is similar to how paper wasp formulate forager and caretaker neuron structures that can actually be changed if the hive requires it.


>I doubt bees can even "learn" in any significant sense.

Scientist have been able to train them to learn and understand the concept and value of zero.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180607141031.htm

Scientist can train them to learn human faces.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100129092010.htm

[Anonymous No.10312770]

Evolution is a mystery
Full of change that no one sees
Clock makes a fool of history

[Anonymous No.10312930]

>>10312499
stacking things in the shape of nests feels good to birds, so they build nests.

[Anonymous No.10312971]

>>10312626
>I mean we're born with predisposition to like fire
Citation needed

[Anonymous No.10312972]

>>10312499
no. European colonialism taught them how to build nests. Before that they were savages

[Anonymous No.10312987]

If a bird is born knowing how to build a nest, how come I wasn't born with the knowledge of how to get a qt gf and start a family? All of my ancestors did it, why not me?

[Anonymous No.10312992]

>>10312505
How do you encode "building a nest" in a brain since birth?

[Anonymous No.10312994]

>>10312987
families are a social construct

[Anonymous No.10312997]

>>10312930
but why does it feel good

[Anonymous No.10312999]

>>10312971
This. I hate fire. If I see fire I run away

[Anonymous No.10313000]

>>10312987
How do you live with yourself knowing that you'll be the first broken link in a chain of procreation that goes back thousands of millenia?

[Anonymous No.10313008]

>>10313000
It goes back to the beginning of the universe, if you really think about it.

[Anonymous No.10313014]

>>10312701
This. Bees absolutely are born with the knowledge they have. If the chain in learning was broken even once (which it must have quadrillions of opportunities to happen) all the bees would have died off long ago. It's absolutely innate.

[Anonymous No.10313030]

>>10312756
>Research shows there is a genetic basis
Well there is clearly a "nature" component. The reason we don't understand how this happens is that we don't even know how the brain of anything larger than a nematode works.

[Anonymous No.10313035]

>>10312499

they know instinctively how to build nests, but how good they build them is learned

[Anonymous No.10313040]

>>10312992

How do you encode the ability to learn any language in the brain since brith? Take a japanese kid from birth and raise them with an English family and they will speak English - not Japanese.

[Anonymous No.10313050]

>>10313040
>How do you encode the ability to learn any language in the brain since brith?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE

[Anonymous No.10313061]

>>10312682
>How do you show that the structure that is the nest is not learned via their experience of constructed reality when they were a chick?
Doesn't seem so hard to me, you could just use a KH (kaspar hauser) youngling and make it copulate with another bird (this would be the only hard part since I think a kh bird would hardly find a partner in nature, but you could artificially fertilize it, hormones alone should do the trick).
Then you would observe if he does build a nest or not, and how well he does it.
>By the way this structure also has thorns placed in multiple spots of the entrance holes. How would a bird innate understand security via thorns?
An animal, even as complex as a bird, doesn't have to "understand" anything he does, that's something only us humans do. Or I didn't understand your statement.
You are underestimating innate behaviour if you thinnk it can't bring an animal to do extremely complex stuffs, it's something a behaviourist would do

[Anonymous No.10313068]

>>10313061
Cont.

>>10312756
>>So do bees learn to build beehives and do they learn to dance in order to tell other bees the direction of flowers and shit?
>Yes, research involving mushroom body brains of insects such as honey bees shows that the sensory experience they receive during flight activity is incorporated in their dance and hive location via memorization.
>https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0000371
Have you actually read the article? Because it has nothing do with innate/acquired behaviours.
Thinking bees learn to dance or build their nest is extremely retarded.
Anyway, imprinting is really important especially in birds, so I guess that it's possible that they aquire some knowledge about the nest structure, not about nest building tho since obviously nests are built before their birth, this kind of prove the fact that nest building is an innate behaviour.
Still it would be interesting to find out if their imprinting has some kind of effect on their nest quality with the method I stated before

[Anonymous No.10313125]

>>10312499
Also consider that birds are not necessarily unthinking, unintelligent creatures. Birds obviously have some capacity to understand that their offspring need protection, whether that be a hole or a wide open nest. If you have birds that are unable to solve this problem, then they will not successfully raise offspring; evolution would push for an intense desire to create, find a nest.

Furthermore, birds will happily take advantage of their environment to find suitable nesting areas. In the UK I often see House Sparrows use the corners of roofs. However, this is obviously somewhat instinct driven because many species of birds will in nest in ways that reflect their natural environment, for example Peregrine Falcons will nest on tall buildings because they are naturally found around cliffs.

[Anonymous No.10313485]

>>10313068
>have you actually read the article? Because it has nothing do with innate/acquired behaviours

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0000371

>Honeybees organize a sophisticated society, and the workers transmit information about the location of food sources using a symbolic dance, known as ‘dance communication’. Recent studies indicate that workers integrate sensory information during foraging flight for dance communication.

>According to the expression profile (Figure 1D and Figure 2K–O), kakusei expression reflects neural activity that occurred 15 to 60 min prior to sampling of the bees. In our observation, dancers repeated the dance every 5 to 7 min and the foraging every 10 to 15 min. Thus, the neural activity detected in the dancer brains might be due not only to the dancing behavior, but also to the preceding foraging behavior. To address this question, we examined kakusei expression in the brains of foragers. Only some of the foragers that succeed in finding food display dance behavior [7], [23]. Thus, when we analyze foragers, only some of them are expected to be dancers.

>Therefore, we collected foragers with pollen loads (an indication that they were successful in finding food) in front of the hive entrance before we checked whether or not they danced in the hive. The results indicated that every forager (N=12) had a kakusei expression pattern similar to that of the dancers (N=6). In addition, there was no significant difference in the density of kakusei-positive cells in the MB neurons, including in the sKCs, between these bees [Figure 5; P>0.05, two-factor ANOVA (F1: bee type; F2: brain hemisphere)]. Thus, these results suggest that the increased sKC neural activity in the dancer brain is associated with foraging behavior rather than dancing behavior, although we cannot exclude the possibility that the foragers we examined also exhibited the dance behavior shortly before the observation period.

[Anonymous No.10313491]

>>10312499
If spiders, which have no brain, can have ingrained web-weaving behavior then it's not really that impressive.

[Anonymous No.10313497]

>>10313491

[Anonymous No.10313660]

>>10313485
Ok this confirms you are actually mentally challenged, nowhere in the article is said they learn to dance, it's about specific neural activity in forager and dancer
>These findings demonstrate that the small-type Kenyon cell-preferential activity is associated with foraging behavior, suggesting its involvement in information integration during foraging flight, which is an essential basis for dance communication.
Where do you read or extrapolate "dancing is an acquired behaviour"?
Pic related is you thinking nest and hive building is acquired behaviour

[Anonymous No.10313757]

>>10313491
spiders produce the substance they need to build webs with. it's almost an extension of their body.


Birds go out into the wild, find something, carry it to a chosen location then build something with said found materials.

[Anonymous No.10313918]

>>10313660
>nowhere in the article is said they learn to dance, it's about specific neural activity in forager and dancer

How hard is it to understand that sensory experience received during flight activity while foraging is incorporated in their dance behavior? The entire point of the paper is to verify previous studies about whether or not sensory activity they experience outside of dancing influences their neural activity during their dancing behavior. They wouldn't be bothering with trying to figure out if the dancing behavior was influenced by pre/post time interval activity if the point wasn't to see if outside sensory experience affected it.

>Where do you read or extrapolate "dancing is an acquired behaviour"?

First off lets point out the blatant goal post moving you just did with >>10313068 stating the paper has nothing do with innate/acquired behaviours. This is despite the fact it clearly does. Second lets highlight the specific statement from my earlier post >>10312756 talking about how sensory experience in flight activity is incorporated in their dance.

Third the extrapolation of the "acquired behavior" comes from the bee dance itself being seen as a language from researchers like,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_L._Gould

Who supports bee dancing as a true communicative language learned through environmental interactions. Also it has been shown that bee dance not only differs by species but different species can learn each others bee dance. This supports the view that bee dance is can be viewed as a language and can be learned.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0002365

>We believe that this is the first report of successful symbolic communication between two honeybee species; our study hints at the possibility of social learning between the two honeybee species, and at the existence of a learning component in the honeybee dance language

I wasn't aware I had to perform this level of hand holding.

[Anonymous No.10313938]

>>10312992
>be born in a nest
>get kicked out of it
>nostalgia
>copy the only comfy place you experienced

[Anonymous No.10313988]

>>10313918
So you are basically telling me I'm right and you were not.
The fact that sensory experience affects their dancing behaviour doesn't mean it's an acquired behaviour at all, it simply means that their experience influences their behaviour.
You said:
>>So do bees learn to build beehives and do they learn to dance in order to tell other bees the direction of flowers and shit?
>Yes, research involving mushroom body brains of insects such as honey bees shows that the sensory experience they receive during flight activity is incorporated in their dance and hive location via memorization.

So no they don't learn how to dance, they modify their dance based on experience. Your answer and the article had nothing to do with the topic

[Anonymous No.10313992]

>>10313757
There are birds that make nests out of their own dried saliva.

[Anonymous No.10314072]

>>10313988

>So no they don't learn how to dance,

So you tell me what's going on in,

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0002365

What exactly is happening here when researchers are performing a cross species hive between two different bee species that both have their own "dance" which is literally defined as a language by experts. What exactly is going on in this research paper that allows these bees to literally learn a different dance (language because that is how experts define it) that is different from what they are supposedly genetically encoded for to have.

[Anonymous No.10314102]

>>10312499
Yes
i forgot what its called
but its a sort of hard coded pathway in the brain.
Humans are naturally inclined towards using tools. Dogs are naturally inclined to digging. Birds are inclined to make nest.
Their ancestors did it so much that those who had it hard coded excelled. Same things for birds.

[Anonymous No.10314925]

Due to european colonialism

[Anonymous No.10314966]

>>10313491
>which have no brain
They do have a brain. Also, the important thing is the presence of a neural architecture, so it can learn, and react to outside stimulus.

[Anonymous No.10317008]

>>10314925
lmao XD XD XD XD

[Anonymous No.10317026]

>>10314072
He literally told you whats going on in that paper in the post you're linking too

>So no they don't learn how to dance, they modify their dance based on experience. Your answer and the article had nothing to do with the topic

[Anonymous No.10317157]

>>10312987
I believe the instincts are latent within you, you just threw all of it away into the void of your post feminist society. Find that primal instinct. I know it's there...

[Anonymous No.10317214]

>>10317026

That research paper literally states in detail how two different bee species learned dances foreign to their genetically adapted dance. That anon has provided nothing to argue against what the researchers in that paper tested.

Also to say the subject matter in question is not related to the topic is dishonest due to the fact it is still focusing on the issue involving behavior aquired from birth vs learning that op talked about. Along with the fact that the responses and links are answering this >>10312701 post's question.

[Anonymous No.10317220]

>>10317214
Retard, listen. Bees has the genetic 'know-how' to dance. However, their dances change based on their environment.

What is hard to understand about this?

[Anonymous No.10317342]

>>10317220

What's hard to understand is that the research done by experts in the field show bees learning a dance foreign to their own from another species that isn't just simply based on "environment" factors. Also the "bee dance" is classified as a communicative language by experts. And the language they are learning is different from their own genetically adapted language.

So who should I believe? The scientists who spent years working on the subject in question showing emprical proof of learning a different dance that is classified as a language for bees. Or the retarded dumbass on a forum who doesn't provide any sources to support their claim against the experts in the research in question?

Trust me, it isn't hard to decide. Especially when no body of evidence is being presented to prove their research isn't correct or accurate to the circumstances they are testing.

[Anonymous No.10317344]

>>10312756
>scientist have been able to train bees to learn and understand the concept and value of zero.
That's fucking hilarious. I'm kinda tempted to start my own colony of bees so I can teach them to do this shit. Might even look good on a resume.

[Anonymous No.10317358]

>>10312930
This, birds have obsessive compulsive nesting disorder.