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/sci/ - Science & Math


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10269054 No.10269054 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

Is math invented or discovered? I personally think math is something so fundamental, it transcends our universe.

>> No.10269101

>>10269054
invented

we "discovered" that one rock and one rock are 2 rocks, but then to make that idea rigorous we had to make math.

>> No.10269109

to my knowledge (brainlet btw), math is modeled after real-world phenomena. Making it lean more discovered.

an example is calculus is the study of the rate of change. the math happens without the need to write an equation for it.

inventing math would be a new frontier. Maybe machine learning could be considered "inventing" math, but idk desu. I feel like there is a stronger arguement that invalidates. such as discovering and utilizing a method to make machines learn isn't inventing, but just discovering and utilizing.

>> No.10269119

>>10269054
100% invented. Math is a tool to describe ideas and logic.

>> No.10269125

>>10269101
>>10269119
But what about stuff like lambda calculus? It's so abstract and minimalistic it almost doesn't exist

>> No.10269138

>>10269125
Was still made by a human brain to describe or form some function in the universe. The universe operates by laws most likely, math is a set of tools used to understand those functions, or to understand theoretical things like non-euclidean geometry

>> No.10269145

>>10269054
it is neither, not discovered not invented
it is humans understanding of universal laws
so it doesn't transcend our universe, it only works in our universe or at least in this part of the universe

>> No.10269149

>>10269054
This is one of these dumb philosophical questions that will never be given a definitive answer either way. Stick to math.

>> No.10269155

>>10269149
I think it's important, because if math IS the fundamental governing force in the universe, it means anything that is accurate mathematically could be physically possible. Banarch-Tarski comes to mind.

>> No.10269312

>>10269145
then it is invented

>> No.10269346

There is no real difference between abstract constructions and real constructions.
You can consider the space of all physical machinery. It is infinite and countable. We say that an inventor invented something when they come up with an element from this space.
In the same way you can consider the space of all mathematical constructs, some of which people will eventually come up with.

If we say that we invent physical machines then there is no reason not to say that we invent mathematics.

>> No.10269422

Math is a human creation that symbolizes abstract patterns perceived by thought that represent things in the real world. There are nowadays maths that don't resemble anything in the real world. They are abstractions upon our first layer of abstractions.

The patterns exist. Math was invented to describe these patterns. The map is not the territory.

>> No.10269428
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10269428

>>10269054

>> No.10269604

>>10269312
can you read?

>> No.10269613

>>10269604
>humans understanding
we are the ones formulating it
so its invented

>> No.10269666

>>10269054

The actual mathematical symbols and things are just our way of describing observed phenomenon.

At the very core of mathematics is the assumptions that reality is static. Static might not be the best word but basically I am saying that nature has finite laws especially the fact that mass cannot be created or destroy; every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Without these fundamental observations, mathematics would be futile.

Math is how we solve problems and extrapolation of ideas predicated on things working in a consistent manor.

>> No.10269709

>>10269054
I can recommend the book "Our mathematical universe" by Max Tegmark (professor in physics at MIT). Its about your question amongst other things, popsci but still good.

>> No.10269764

You invent the axioms and then discover the implications of your choice.

>> No.10269845

>>10269709
Thanks!

>> No.10269994

>hurr durr it's both
The problem is that Math as we're calling it is really 2 separate things. Because it's two separate entities it can be both invented and discovered, one of each.

Math can be the numbering system we use, and in this sense it can best be described as a language.

Math can also be the specific things that we do with this numbering system, like addition, subtraction, division, square roots. This 2nd would exist in the universe even if it was never described with our numerical system of language. Therefore the things you can do with math is discovered.

In order to avoid confusion math should be 2 separate words, not one.

>> No.10270008

>>10269054
Math is just a symbol system to describe the observable nature and in advanced methods and theories to describe the way the mind perceive, process and conceptualize the partially observable "nature", or reality.
>i personally like to see it ass the "language", to transmit and register, the deep processes of our minds.

>> No.10270014

Mathematical concepts are discovered, the way we express those concepts is invented

>> No.10270614

>>10269604
no :(

>> No.10270645

Math just describes brain processes. Math only exists within human minds (if you are thinking about it.)

>> No.10270709
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10270709

Discovered. All these anons say the fundamental nature of inherently mathematical things make math a human invention...how? If three herds of buffalo merge with a fourth on an unexplored plain but nobody is around to see it, it still adds up to a total sum of four combined herds whether man was there to invent the explaination or not

>> No.10270716

>>10269054
Idk but it can't transcend the universe. Maybe math just exists in the human mind and aliens would actually have different math.

>> No.10270748
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10270748

>m-math is invented! i invent stuff!!!!
FUCK OFF YOU FUCKING IDIOT!
Math exists in a perfect and eternal universe after which ours is crudely modeled. Those of us who study math are simply exploring the objects and dynamics of this platonic universe. This is why mathematicians will always be better than physishits and other scientists who study le epic meme reality with it's fucking garbage laws and imperfections, and we will also always be better than engineers because we aren't fucking inspector gadget tier inventors. we are the only ones studying TRUE BEAUTY!!!

>> No.10270825

How many times do we have to have this fucking gay thread.

>> No.10270830

>>10270748
>The demiurge HATES him!

>> No.10270849

>>10270830
you haven't read Plato or are not very good at humor

>> No.10270858
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10270858

>>10269054
the language is invented
the patterns are discovered

>> No.10270924

>>10270858

and since math itself is the pattern(s), it (math) is discovered. You have to grow up and stop trying to have it both ways, a young person's mistake which is a regular occurence in these threads. Math is purely discovered, everybody, been saying this for a few years in these threads but you're all still young, dumb and full of cum.

>> No.10270928

>>10269101
to convey the idea of composing 2 rocks was invented. This is called symbolic representation --> Notation --> Language.
Math in itself is something that already existed we just gave it a name "mathematics". So abstractly speaking there are one rock and another rock, each rock has topological homeomorphism congruent to a sphere. Each rock can be cut in half, then quarters etc. Even though we give names for things does not mean we invented them we linguistically translated them to symbolic representation.

>> No.10270931

>>10270858
I KoNKuRRRR

>> No.10270933

>>10269054
What is invented is mathematical models that describe reality to varying degrees of accuracy.

>> No.10270938

>>10270933
To further add to this, basiclly everything we do when we use math practically/to describe reality is using mathematical models. When we count something we assume certian properties that hold true on our macroscale but might not hold true on quantum scale.

>> No.10270946

Math is simply a way to get rich successful life

>> No.10270953
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10270953

>>10270924
I'm pretty sure on planet Borb in the Quath dimension they don't use Leibniz notation to denote their integrals.

>> No.10271066

we didn't invent pi or e

>> No.10271495

>>10269054
We invented math as a way to decipher the discovered phenomena. Math is fundamental but I'd assume it can take different forms, based on for example what base system you use.

>> No.10271769

>>10270953
But the fact that the derivative uses the chain rule is implicit to rates of change

>> No.10271792

>>10269428
This never made sense, religion is just a subset of philosophy.

>> No.10271807

>>10271792
No.

>> No.10271859

>>10271066
we invented the idea of a perfect circle and that implied pi
we invented the idea of a limit or a derivative and that implied e

just like how 1 and the definition of addition implies 2

>> No.10271863

>>10271859
>we invented the idea of a perfect circle
False
>we invented the idea of a limit or a derivative and that implied e
False

>> No.10271881

>>10271863
ok how about, we invented the definition of a circle and pi followed
we invented the definition of a limit and e followed

>> No.10271886

>>10271881
Idiot

>> No.10271977

>>10271886
>the epsilon delta definition of a limit wasnt invented
youre retarded

>> No.10272077

>>10270953

Holy shit you are dumb as fuck. You didn't understand what I wrote at all.

>> No.10272091
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10272091

>>10269054
invented

Just think about it logically, how does [math]\frac{1}{2} = 0.5[/math] supposedly function the same as [math]\frac{1}{i} = -i[/math]

>> No.10272095

>>10269054
It's a poor representation of universal truths.

>> No.10272109

>>10272091
I has magnitude one and division is the opposite of multiplication, multiplying both sides yields one. This is identical to [math]\frac{1}{2}=0.5[/math]

>> No.10272128

>>10269054
Mathematics has a framework of logic that was invented and then afterwards we discovered all of the rules that would work within that framework without contradicting themselves.

If you really fucking wanted to, you could make alternate mathematical systems that have a completely different framework, but are still internally consistent. It's just that the one we have seems divine because we designed the framework to apply to the world we see around us.

>> No.10272384
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10272384

>>10271792
one can argue that philosophy is a subset of theology. the way math is a subset of physics. But to have it your way, I would tape the left edge of the cartoon to the right edge.

>> No.10272413

>>10269346
Very pretty way of wording this concept! I agree.

>> No.10272414

>>10272384
>the way math is a subset of physics
?

>> No.10273298

>>10269054
its the result of something like information propagating itself in matter

>> No.10273299

>>10269422
well said.

>> No.10273304

>>10269422
i like to think that the math is a version some pattern which can replicate itself in the universe, when this pattern propagates itself in a brain/neural system.

>> No.10273306

>>10272091
because those symbols are many-to-one, with respect to certain ideas

>> No.10273309

>>10272384
In Super Smash brothers, your character thinks he's running in a circle when he runs to the end of the screen and appears on the other side (from your perspective).

>> No.10273311

>>10273309
Well, only on the secret mario level, in the others he just die of course.

>> No.10273324

>>10269054
I think cock routinely transcends your prostate

>> No.10273327

ITT: pseud orgy

>> No.10273872

you invent the rules and discover their consequences. it's really that simple.

>> No.10273875

>>10269764
yeah, this. it's like building a house and then discovering that it's not structurally sound after it crumbles on itself

>> No.10273913

All invention is discovery of possibility. Everyone in this thread infinitely pwned.

>> No.10273916

If the existence of math is transcendental, then it's impossible to discover, because we only have empirical access to the physical.

>> No.10274004

>>10271792
Science is a wholly contained subset of philosophy.

>> No.10274017

>>10269054
>implying humans invented a fundamental aspect of the universe
Maths is an observation of universal truths. That's all.

>> No.10274134

>>10274004
philosophy is a wholly contained subset of your mother's cunt

>> No.10274136

>>10274017
i think the truths are local and contingent. can you prove that they aren't?

>> No.10274150
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10274150

Math is discovered
Notation is invented

>> No.10274162

>>10269054
>IQ=200

That won't happen until there are over 76 billion people on earth.

>> No.10274300

>>10274150
Fuck off tooker

>> No.10275024

Discovered due to the universal fact that True != False.

>> No.10275182

Mathematics is a set of tools to describe relations between conceptual things based on a set of rules, usually thought to and largely actually corresponding to their actual nature.

It is constructed off of our innate animal ability to conceptualize things. Think about how euclidean geometry was and still is massively useful even though limited in that its application doesn't precisely correspond to physical reality.

The natural order is already there, we construct the methods to conceptualize it when its properties are discovered. Forget about notation, you have to build it in your mind before you can get there, you don't start out understanding.

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