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/sci/ - Science & Math

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10263767 No.10263767[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Why do you people consider trans women to be women?

I will call a trans women with she/her pronouns in public to be polite, but politeness aside you people seem to think a trans woman IS a woman.

You are supposed to be men of science, what gives?

>> No.10263797

>>10263767
i dont think trans women are women lol...

>> No.10263804

>>10263767
Because scientists are bought out drones, and 99% of this board is filled w/ retarded undergrads who love to slurp on their blue haired antifa profs dick

>> No.10263806

Not science and not math.

>> No.10263810

this is literally a non issue. it’s just a matter of how you personally define man and woman. if i define woman to have xx chromosomes, then trans women are not women, and neither are intersex people

>> No.10263813

>be a shill
>have your ip banned from /pol/
>"hmm I wonder what board should I shit up."

>> No.10263816

>>10263810
I can personally define an apple to be a banana. Does it make it right? No. Retard

>> No.10263817

>>10263804
>>>/pol/

>> No.10263822

>>10263816
There is no way you're this stupid. R-right?

>> No.10263826

>>10263767
>but politeness aside you people seem to think a trans woman IS a woman.
why wouldn't i? i have no proof to the contrary.

>> No.10263831

>>10263822
never underestimate the stupidity of a /pol/tard

>> No.10263836

>>10263826
B-b-but /pol/ says they aren't

>> No.10263841

>>10263831
>>10263817
>>10263813
Sometimes I wish /pol/ didn't exist so you retards could come up with ANYTHING other than "lol go back to /pol/ sweetie :)"

>> No.10263845

>>10263841
what, are you butthurt you're too easily dismissed?

>> No.10263847

>>10263841
Sometimes I wish people came here to discuss science and math.

>> No.10263854
File: 25 KB, 745x813, 1544021155965.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10263854

>>10263767
notice how everyone responds to your thread with
>go back to /pol/
Having people resort to adhoms immediately is a good way to tell that you have a good point

>> No.10263860

>>10263854
insulting people is not an ad honinem

>> No.10263869

>>10263841
>>10263854
>MY definition of man/woman doesn't include trans people
>well MINE does
this """debate""" has nothing to do with science and everything to do with politics. /pol/ is the appropriate board for it. everyone just uses whatever definition fits their personal political agenda. neither is necessarily wrong.

>> No.10263871

>>10263810
>personally define
Wut. I though this board was about ACTUAL science, not make believe. How many more retards like you are lurking here?

>> No.10263873

Trans women are women if they pass. OP's picrelated doesn't and is a straight man with a fetish.

>> No.10263876

>>10263767
The fact that you're calling them a trans WOMAN is very telling. A trans woman is a woman who is trans.

>>10263841
>s-stop being mean to my shitty website wahhhh

>> No.10263877

>>10263871
...where do you think words and their definitions come from? does god just hand them down to us on stone tablets or something?

>> No.10263879
File: 45 KB, 364x634, 1544666275802.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10263879

>>10263876
This is a trans woman. Please explain how this is a woman and not a man taking HRT

>> No.10263884

>>10263876
Would you prefer if I used TIM?

Trans identified males

>> No.10263885

>>10263876
The fact that you're calling them a TRANS woman (as opposed to just women) is very telling.

>> No.10263887

I had a friend who transitioned. Was a good friend so I never acknowledged it and just kept threating him normally. It's only a problem if you make it one.

>> No.10263888
File: 65 KB, 750x563, 1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10263888

>>10263879
The same way that this is a woman.

>> No.10263890

>>10263887
Forcing society to lie and forcing people to say a man is a woman is dangerous

>> No.10263892

neural development isn't absolutely specified, it's hormonally influenced as it follows patterns of development. if you think that can't go awry and result in a brain that conceives of itself as being different from the rest of the body, you straight-up don't know a single thing about biology

>> No.10263893

>>10263888
Is she is a woman. Look at her
>shoulders
>hips
>jawline
>arms
>checks
>forehead
>eyes

Looking like a man != a man

>> No.10263895

>>10263888
Yeah lets see what's under his pants. That frankenstein dick doesn't make her a man.

>> No.10263896

>>10263893
Call him a woman to his face, please.

>> No.10263898

>>10263893
She is a woman*

>> No.10263899

>>10263895
Most trans men don't get SRS. He probably has a vag.

>> No.10263900

>>10263890
Does anyone force you to do anything? Are you sent to the gulag if you don't?

>> No.10263902

>>10263893
You forgot
>nipples
>vagina or frankenstien penis

>>10263896
If she attacks me (which she won't since females are not violent) then I can just press assault charges on her.

>> No.10263907

>>10263899
>man
>vag
You people really are delusional nutjobs

>> No.10263908

>>10263900
I am a canadian and I can go to jail if I use he/him pronouns when interacting with a trans woman.

>> No.10263909

OP it's alright. Your mom won't beat you if you come out.

>> No.10263914

>>10263899
She* probable has a vag

She is a woman ergo she gets she/her pronouns

>> No.10263916

>>10263909
Nice ad hominem snowflake

>> No.10263917

>>10263907
if i took your brain and transplanted it into a body with XX chromosomes, you wouldn't suddenly start believing yourself to be a woman, would you? you would feel a sense of self that you were a man, correct? that no matter what the meat supporting you was, your brain told you you were a man?

how is it then so inconceivable that someone could be born in that state?

>> No.10263918

>>10263908
Suppose this is true. How is that the fault of trans people exactly?

>> No.10263920

Trams women aren't women, they're trans women. Why is this a contention? Are we supposed to believe that they actually are somehow women?

>> No.10263921

>>10263918
Its not the fault of trannies its the fault of the government for forcing me to lie

>> No.10263924

>>10263916
Not an adhom. I didn't use that as an argument. Insults are not adhoms. Get a basic education before posting on a science board.

>> No.10263926

>>10263917
>if I did a theoretical surgery that doesn't exist
Not an argument

>> No.10263927

>>10263918
Nice backpedaling, faggot

>> No.10263929

>>10263918
>>10263921
They are the ones lobbying the government for special rights

>> No.10263930

>>10263926
there's literally surgeons who want to do that surgery today

>> No.10263931

>>10263921
So why are you starting a discussion about trans people when it should be about the government?

>> No.10263942

>>10263924
>science
As if you're not a larping faggot in the first place

>> No.10263955

>>10263926
>what is a hypothetical situation

>> No.10263960

>>10263767
>Why do you people consider trans women to be women?
Who said we do?

>> No.10263962

>>10263917
Because it is.

>> No.10263963

>>10263960
People in this very thread are saying they do

>> No.10263969

>>10263962
it's literally not though. nothing in developmental biology is invariably dictated by the genome. it's a complex, emergent process directed by environmental inputs. it's incredibly error-prone.

>> No.10263984

>>10263822

Retard here. What exactly is wrong with his analogy?

>> No.10263991

>>10263917
It seems like you're saying believing you're a man = being a man. Do you believe this? Are there other categories of people that work like this?

>> No.10263992
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10263992

>>10263888
Look at this man and tell me he's not an emperor

>> No.10263996

>>10263991
it should be self-evident what i was arguing for.

>> No.10263999

>>10263984
Literally nothing.

>> No.10264001

>>10263896
Not an argument

things that say she is a woman
>hips
>shoulders
>nipples
>jawline
>arms
>eyes
>checks
>forehead
>brow
>vagina

Things that say she is a man
>her delusions

Whats more trustworthy?

>> No.10264009

>>10264001
>human perception is trustworthy durr

Leave

>> No.10264010
File: 69 KB, 1280x720, pope_michael.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10264010

>>10263896
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKZ9Tpa_lLs

Call this man not the pope to his face, please

>> No.10264011

>>10264009
>biological features are merely human perception

>> No.10264013

>>10264011
see: >>10263917

>> No.10264016

>>10264013
Not an argument
A brain is an organ of the body

A trans woman is a male homosapien

>> No.10264021

>>10264016
if the brain is just an organ of the body, then if you change the body, the gender changes, correct? if i took your brain and put it in an XX body, you would become a woman? regardless of what the brain senses?

>> No.10264023

>>10264021
We don't even know what would happen after the hypothetical surgery you retard. There is a chance the body rejects the brain

>> No.10264025

>>10263767
>you people seem to think
I learned a long time ago that any OP that assumes entire boards or threads hold a singular opinion about anything, is that it is a bad shitpost.

>> No.10264026

>>10264023
that chance always happens with transplant surgeries. assume immunosuppressants

>> No.10264027

>>10264023
It's obvious you're just trolling. Nobody could be this retarded.

>> No.10264028

>>10264026
I'm going to assume you're retarded

>> No.10264041

>>10264026
>assume immunosuppressants
>brain transplant surgery

How do I know you have never been to med school?

>> No.10264043

>>10263917

My brother has severe mental problems. He believes he is Barack Obama (even though my brother is white).

Does that make him Barack Obama? No you absolute fucking pleb.

You thought yourself into a right pickle there. No need to thank me for slapping you with an argument so powerful and simple that you need to reassess your self worth.

>> No.10264046

>>10263767
Because if some deranged faggot wants to call himself a woman, then by all means I won't stop him. It's his life. If it makes him happy I won't get in his way and I will support him.
As to what I honestly think...
I don't really think about faggots on my free time.
Since apparently it is an important issue to you OP, maybe you should take a break and think why it is so important to you, and maybe just maybe consider the fact that you are potentially a HUGE faggot.

>> No.10264048

>>10264025
If it's such a bad shitpost then why is this board eating this up? These are the most active threads in this board by far.

>> No.10264051

>>10264041
because i'm on /sci/, just like you

>>10264043
being barack obama is not something that comes out of a fetal developmental process of the brain. we have plausible biological theories for how a sense of self and gender arises. we don't have such a theory for being obama

>> No.10264065

>>10264051
>sense of gender
Made up hogwash to appease the feelings of trannys

>> No.10264069

>>10263885
Did you read the very next sentence, or....? I literally said it's a woman, with trans as a description adjective.

>> No.10264071

>>10264051
>we don't have such a theory for being obama

You have missed the point. It's not about being Obama. It's about the human brains failure to assign a sense of self that matches reality.

>> No.10264073

>>10264065
Do you have any evidence for that claim or is anything that goes against you beliefs just made up?

>> No.10264075

>>10264071
>thinking that your perception of reality actually matches it

How about you leave?

>> No.10264076

>>10263767
I would say most people going to college think they know a secret truth known only by them without having done any hard work. So of course they are contrarian edgelords, prone to the propaganda of extremist groups. LGBT are a counterculture group. On no timeline or hypothetical dimension reality will I ever call someone I think has a penis a woman.

>> No.10264080

>>10263917
>how is it then so inconceivable that someone could be born in that state?

Babies don't know what men and women are.
Your brain cannot tell you that you are in the wrong body without being aware of an alternative.
The whole trans argument is based around socially constructed norms.
>Recognize gender norms
>Realize your tastes don't fit your gender's norm
>Disavow gender norms to justify your tastes
>Transition to better fit the other gender's norm
>Start demanding that people uphold your new gender's norms when interacting with you.

>> No.10264081

>>10264071
which, unless that person felt they were barack obama since before they knew barack obama was a person, is irrelevant

>> No.10264084

>>10263908
when the fuck would you use third person when interacting directly with someone

>> No.10264087

>>10264080
>The whole trans argument is based around socially constructed norms.
not true, there are examples of children with very little understanding of the social norms around gender having convictions about gender that persist into adulthood

>> No.10264088

>>10264076
yeah, look at how ((((they)))) are >prone to the propaganda of extremist groups

rofl, go back to >>>/pol/

>> No.10264090

>>10264081

Are you suggesting people feel as though they are the opposite sex before ever encountering a member of the opposite sex?

>> No.10264093

>>10264073
Do you have any evidence that says gender is real or different from sex?

>> No.10264095

>>10264090
see: >>10264087

>> No.10264097

>>10264084
>hey can you pass me my water bottle? its right next to the guy over there

>> No.10264101

>>10264088
>back to /pol/ sweetie :)
not an argument

>> No.10264108

>>10264093
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3388783/

>> No.10264109

>>10264087
If they were born in a world where they were the only person, how would they know what gender was.
My argument is that they need to have some examples to observe before they can conclude that they are the "wrong" gender.

>> No.10264112

>>10264095

Nope. I can sub out "gender norms" for anything. How about "racial norms".

There are people alive right now that believe they are black even though they are white. They've had these convictions from childhood.

It doesn't mean they are correct because they believed it from a young age.

>> No.10264114

>>10264109
that's the whole point of dysphoria, that someone feels a profound discomfort with their body regardless of what external people say about it

>> No.10264116

>>10264108
Nothing on there says a trans woman is a female

>> No.10264118

>>10264112
sure, those people exist. however, race isn't mentally rooted, it's a skin phenotype.

>> No.10264122

>>10264116
>gender is associated with behaviour, lifestyle and life experience.
You can't even read yet are so hateful towards others.

>> No.10264127

>>10263767
It is because it is accepted in USA, the most scientifically advanced country in the world, with the most advanced scientists. So it is confirmed by science because science.

>> No.10264133

>>10264114
>someone feels a profound discomfort with their body regardless of what external people say about it
How do you know the discomfort isn't coming from the external?
If they were the only person in existence, they would just feel normal by definition.

>> No.10264136

>>10264097
>no him/her

Also “guy” is fairly gender neutral AFAIK. Otherwise, there must be a hundred other words in English that would do the same job, like “that person” or “them”.

You’d have to be really going out of your way to misgender someone AND make them hear it AND make them give a shit about it.

>> No.10264140

>>10264133
not true, dysphoria persists despite social isolation

>> No.10264142

>>10264136
I identify as Canadian.
My pronouns are buddy/guy.

>> No.10264150

>>10264140
The isolation of the person doesn't change the external world or the experiences/conclusions they have gotten from it.
They still know the rest of the world is the way it was before isolation.

>> No.10264154

>>10264150
so there's something fundamental about their self that they remember conflicting with the external world. like an identity related to their gender...

>> No.10264159

>>10264154
They know their tastes are not in alignment with the norms.

>> No.10264162

>>10263984
Bananas aren't conscious and cannot make their own decisions. Also there are negative externalities to changing the name of an apple that don't exist with pronouns.

>> No.10264170

>>10264159
so again, the transplant thought experiment. if i put your brain in an XX body, it would just be your taste that you're male?

>> No.10264171

>>10263767

I still consider transgenderism a mental disorder.

DSM-4: “A mental disorder is a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress or disability or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom.”

This fits transgender people perfectly. They have a mental state of disorder where they believe something not supported by objective reality that causes distress, social issues, and an increased risk of suicide.

Biologically; They are male; They were born and can only reproduce with females.

What I think people confuse is gender with gender role. I am adamant about my position that gender is something out of your control; like age you cannot change your age.

However, the gender role this individual may seek is that of the traditional females (Physically inferior, Wear different clothing, attract mates differently, cook/clean etc.)

Frankly, I have no issue with something who wants to take on different roles socially, we are all different in this regard anyway. Some men are stay at home parents etc.

I believe the leftist mentality is this "acceptance" without objectively observing the facts of the matter. Whatever way to treat people with these disorder is my stance, but statistically humoring their delusion is not successful.

>> No.10264181

>>10264170
I would enjoy the same things, dress the same way, etc.
The only thing that would change is the external pressure exerted by the socially constructed norms.

>> No.10264183

>>10264181
that's not what i asked. would you be male or female? if you considered your own mind, would you characterize it as male or female?

>> No.10264188

>>10264183

No one is arguing that they don't BELIEVE they are the different gender.

The matter is whether they objectively are.. and THAT is FALSE.

>> No.10264190

>>10264183
The chromosome would be XX so the sex would be female.
I would be a female that acted like a dude.
There would most likely be a discomfort from not adhering to the female norm.

>> No.10264195

>>10264188
when it comes to an identity like gender that is wholly rooted in the brain, subjective belief is the only question that matters.

>> No.10264196

>>10264122
>saying that a trans woman is biologically a man is hateful

>> No.10264200

>>10264195
>I am talking to the sun
>You sure are!

Enabling someones delusions is wrong

>> No.10264209

>>10264195

Subjective belief.. so everything is true as long as a person believes it?

Gtfo out of here you're dropping my IQ

>> No.10264213

>>10264209
try reading it again
>like gender that is wholly rooted in the brain

>> No.10264216

>>10264213
A man having the delusions that he is a woman does not make him a woman

See
>>10263888

She may pass as a man (she doesn't but lets pretend she was wearing a hoodie and a mask)

The fact that she thinks she is a man and is taking HRT does not mean she is still not a woman.

>> No.10264220

>>10264213

All of your thoughts are wholly rooted in the brain.. again... why is it my obligation to believe things that are not supported by reality. You can believe the earth is flat.. but its not; So I am not believing you.

>> No.10264224
File: 128 KB, 423x705, 1532898751196.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10264224

ITT: Retards

When interacting with a trans person you should use their preferred pronouns since there is no reason not to.

Saying that a trans woman IS a woman however is unscientific and retarded.

>> No.10264225

>>10264216
the brain is the only thing that matters with gender. the more complex the structure, the more easily it's derailed, and that's especially true of the brain.

if your brain says you're a woman, it doesn't really matter what the rest of your body says, what your brain perceives is what you experience.

>>10264220
what your brain perceives IS your reality, not what someone else says

>> No.10264227

>>10264225
>if your brain says you're talking to the sun you are talking to the sun

>> No.10264229

>>10264225

Key word YOUR reality. Not anyone elses reality. Were going over the same fucking point; You can be mentally feeling male; perceiving as a male whatever.

You are NOT a BIOLOGICAL MALE.

>> No.10264232
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10264232

>>10264225
>mental delusions do not exist
>this is a woman because he thinks he is

>> No.10264234

>>10264229
the discussion was literally never about whether you were a biological male.

>> No.10264237

>>10264220
Hypothetically if a you were in a car accident and your male brain was taken out and put in the body of a vegetable and that body had XX chromosomes would you be a man or a woman?

>> No.10264248
File: 802 KB, 1296x2096, b03c26fcaeeccec4ef06361e8e2b4a5d95a61e4180e0178f90510772428f897b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10264248

>> No.10264254

>>10264232
I've literally seen uglier and more man-ish looking women who were born female. That's what I'd assume here if you weren't telling me they were trans.

>> No.10264257

>>10264254
Riiiiiiiiight

>> No.10264261

>>10264254
No you wouldnt.
stop projecting mr. tranny

>> No.10264263

Because I want to fuck a cute girl (male) like this >>10264248

Now fuck off back to /pol/.

>> No.10264266

>>10263841
lol go back to >>>/pol/ sweetie :)

>> No.10264273

in hypothetical terms, it honestly disturbs me
in practical terms (as in, how I would act), I think I wouldn't give much of a fuck, but I would think "wow, she really was born a man?" or "well, she looks like a man", depending on his/her look.

>> No.10264276

>>10264224
>no reason not to
Its dishonest, and sets the stage for more censorship.

>> No.10264282

>>10264276
>Its dishonest
to whom
>and sets the stage for more censorship
Slipperyslopesayswhat?

>> No.10264294

>>10264237

The difference is; They are not a brain that has been transplanted into a different body. They are biologically-genetically female, everything about their body is female and developed female. Therefore it is a delusion, a belief not coherent with objective reality.