Neurotoxicity and Amphetamines

[Anonymous No.10230112]

Lemme get down to brass tacks, /sci/- is there any conclusive evidence that prescription amphetamines actually lead to severe and debilitating neurotoxicity? I have read and heard a lot of different things, but it seems like people have ultimately made the use and abuse of these drugs more of a moral issue rather than one with genuinely harmful repercussions.

Under what circumstances does the drug go from being therapeutic to being entirely harmful?

[Anonymous No.10230140]

What is an overdose?

[Anonymous No.10230179]

>>10230140
So an overdose is the only way in which this drug can be neurotoxic? I've heard that in conjunction with SSRI's it can also induce neurotoxicity, even without overdosing.

[Anonymous No.10230194]

>>10230112
>neurotoxic
no one knows there's been very little studies done on people with ADHD taking the drug for long periods of time. Its been demonstrated in babboons and rats but they have biochemistry from humans so its up in the air as to whether this is something to worry about. More importantly it will definitely cause dependency, seeking out of hyperdopaminergic substances and will restructure and deform dopamine receptors. There is a possiblity it could cause problems with the connections between the dorsal striatum and the pfc but this is all speculation. I've seen a few reviews that seem to warn that there is high potential for neurotoxicity and longer term side effects but there is conspicuously little research on teens and kids who've taken it for long periods. If you have taken them for years, which I have, you'll notice that exhaustion, weight gain problems and blunted reactions to dopaminergic substances are pretty common, also sensitizing and seeking out dopaminergic substances. The thread if it doesn't die will be flooded with people sayings its perfectly safe and you can rail addy's in your dorm room all day long, and others spouting shit about it being neurotoxic. Just use common sense, its extremely similar to meth and street speed, they obviously have long term negative effects so be conservative with your intake and consider cessation of amphetamines after schooling ends. Would not recommend using them in social settings, causes muted empathetic reactions but increased propensity to engage socially, and definitely don't rely on it for work or gaming or anything like that.

[Anonymous No.10230201]

>>10230179
How do you define neurotoxicity? Taking it on a regular basis changes your brain chemistry but it can recover with time. To get to a point where you can't recover you need to be taking it in high doses for many years. There are meth addicts that have recovered after like 10 years of abuse. But then again, I have also known guys who went crazy from speed abuse. Like legit developed psychosis and never recovered.

[Anonymous No.10230814]

>>10230194
>work
>gaming

These are both things that I use amphetamines for, and I can feel the quality of my life rapidly deteriorating before my eyes. I figured that an effective recovery period would take at least a few months and would require vigorous exercise and forced engagement in work/vidya.

Unfortunately, I have very little discipline and the idea of going through this recovery sounds so oppressive that I have a hard time understanding exactly what there is to be gained from going through it.

[Anonymous No.10230817]

Sexual activity on the drugs worsen neurotoxicity.
Never masturbate or have sex on them. You are what you do on any stimulant, even caffeine. Never associate substances that confer productivity with acts that takes away from productivity.

[Anonymous No.10230822]

>>10230817
I know you're probably just trolling, but this anecdotal nonsense isn't really helping anyone.

[Anonymous No.10230833]

>>10230814
You sound like you were already deteriorated.

[Anonymous No.10230845]

>>10230822
It's not "anecdotal" nor is it nonsense.
Sexual activity measurably increases dopamine release substantially in the VTA. Stimulants potentiate this release and vice versa. Sex on stimulants >>> +more dopamine release; Dopamine release >>> oxidative (DOPAC, etc)
As for the second point, there also is the matter of pharmacodynamic conditioned place preference, causing you to associate these drugs with sexual activity.
You sound like a moron rationalizing touching yourself on these drugs

[Anonymous No.10230847]

>>10230833
Yeah, seems that way.

I think going back on my meds is probably a wise choice.

[Anonymous No.10230862]

>>10230845
Do you have a study to back this up? Or are you just using basic logic to indicate that more dopamine released at once leads to greater risk of neurotoxicity?

Because if there's anything I learned from biochem, it's that there's a lot more than basic logic backing it up.

[Anonymous No.10230874]

>>10230817
That pic is unironically true, but not because of the reason you'd probably think it would be, rather because intelligence is a pea cocking strategy to attract a mate, and the more you prolong your dry spell the more intelligent you will become as your brain shifts into overdrive and squeezes every remaining potential to spread your genes. In fact, it's exactly the same with business success or any other type of success, and specifically political success - they're all compensation strategies for what you perceive to lack.
On the other hand, it's quite interesting how people who're naturally very social and are around massive social circles since their teens never manage to succeed above the comfortable average, as if something was lacking in their drive for success to force them to push beyond just the average satisfactory career.

[Anonymous No.10230879]

>>10230862
>dopamine released at once leads to greater risk of neurotoxicity
That's exactly the mechanism behind AMPH induced neurotoxicity.

[Anonymous No.10230882]

It's been a couple years, but from what I read when I first got interested in amphetamines is that moderated use is fine, but if you use them daily like the shrinks tell you to for ADHD, that can actually have some neurotoxic effects.

[Anonymous No.10230888]

>>10230874
Humans are practical creatures, anon. Why work hard for something you already have?

[Anonymous No.10230895]

>>10230879
Do antioxidants help mitigate the severity of this type of damage?

[Anonymous No.10230901]

>>10230888
Exactly, why should your brain break the metabolic optimization and shift into overdrive when you propagate your genes (get sex) as effortlessly as you are right now? Why should it strive to get fit, develop a business, or do anything at all if what you're currently doing just works out for you and all areas of your life are comfortably satisfied at a mediocre average level?

[Anonymous No.10230906]

>>10230901
Besides being envious of all the kewl things people seem to be doing on the internet, I suppose boredom and the creeping sense of stagnation have a tendency to remind people of the fear of death. As a result, they try to go out of their way to distract themselves with new ways to reinvent their lifestyles.

The cycle is endless, but the satisfaction a person gains from successfully overcoming a new task is usually enough to give them a reason to keep living in spite of the inevitable bouts of existential dread.

[Anonymous No.10230970]

>>10230194
So, would my risk be low if I'm eating the adderall only in the amount perscribed to me?

[Anonymous No.10230975]

There are healthier alternatives for boosting brainpower, like for example racetams.

[Anonymous No.10230993]

>>10230879
If so, how risky is it for someone with anorgasmia?

[Anonymous No.10231012]

Ex-heroic-dose methhead here. Used to injest maybe two grams over a 24-hour period, once a week. Always went into a psychosis of course but the only lasting damage seems to be a degregation in short term memory.

Guy I know would crush an ounce in two months, he went permanently crazy, even after getting sober.

[Anonymous No.10231053]

>>10230993
Equally risky. Dopamine is what drives sexual arousal/the sensation of activity. The release of endogenous opioid peptides, oxytocin and 5-HT are responsible for the sensation of orgasm.

[Anonymous No.10231584]

>>10231012
Why would you guys take such fucking outrageous doses? Was your tolerance really so high that you had to ingest suicidal amounts of it for it to work?

If my math was right and we're talking about adderall, then your friend was taking something like 470mg a day, which is absolutely fucking insane. If it's meth that you're talking about then honestly I'm more surprised about him still being alive than just losing his mind.

Then again, I'm not really an expert on the toxic effects of these drugs. If you can consume such a tremendous amount and still live to talk about it, then I guess that's proof that this drug class isn't quite as destructive as I thought.

[Anonymous No.10231860]

>>10231012
I used to go through like 3 points in a week but I'd stay up the whole time.

[Anonymous No.10231925]

>>10230112
I've done recreationally for a while, knowledge you not protect you from the addictive properties of the drug. You can't rationalize your way out of the emotional pull of the substance. Here's some things that happen when you do speed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditioned_place_preference

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOSB#Summary_of_addiction-related_plasticity

You can also microdose it but I wouldn't recommend it, it's too fun.

[Anonymous No.10231974]

>>10231053
Dies this mean that both my dopamine pathways AND opioid/oxytocin/5-HT pathways are fucked?
Fuck my life...

[Anonymous No.10231989]

>>10230817
I like to fap while high. Is that neurotoxic?

[Anonymous No.10232012]

>>10230814
>>10230194
>using stimulants for gaming

Haha can you imagine how much of a loser you have to be to tweak just for the purpose of playing video games? Unless you do it on a professional level and get money/fame for it.

[Anonymous No.10232399]

>>10231584
I enjoyed the sexy time and honestly I wanted to die at the time.

It was meth. So much more effective at crossing the BBB

[Anonymous No.10232627]

>>10232012
Games are a lot of fun when tweaking, not sure what you're on about.

[Anonymous No.10232948]

>>10231989
I'm surprised you are alive to ask the question

[Anonymous No.10232957]

>>10231584
The thing with amphs is a lot of people almost immediately start taking dangerous doses, this includes people prescribed the meds who start off very discipline and just using them to focus. I saw it all around me in hs even among smarter kids. There's no strong evidence the normal therapeutic dose is neurotoxic, though of course worry remains about other problems long term, but that's the thing, no one sticks with that dose. This dumb nigger is doing something that's rare but not as rare as you'd think.
>>10232012
Have you not jerked off or played vidya while on stims? Its like nothing you could experience without them, total entanglement with the autistic vision machine stream of consciousness experience.

[Anonymous No.10233022]

>>10230993
How the hell did you get anorgasmia?

[Anonymous No.10233145]

>>10233022
I still don't know.
Even though my nervous system seems Okay generally, and I can get aroused and even ejaculate normally, I just can't experience that rush/"high" of an orgasm, even though everything was normal before - it just sort of faded away (gradually) at some point.
And even after extensive medical evaluation, nobody has an idea what's going on…

[Anonymous No.10233151]

>>10233145
Do you perceive the moment you are going to ejaculate? Or does it just sort of happen without you realizing it?

[Anonymous No.10233167]

>>10233151
I can fell it getting closer, but I cannot perceive the exact moment.
I.E. less accurate than before.

[Anonymous No.10233179]

>>10233167
Man, that is just too bizarre. I hope you can figure out a way to cure it, anon. Not being able to perceive an orgasm sounds like a pretty twisted joke of a disease. Like something a wizard would cast on an apprentice as punishment for overcooking the roast.

[Anonymous No.10233199]

>>10233179
Honestly I've kinda given up on figuring it out at this point.
As almost a whole year of extensive medical testing and visiting numerous experts got me nowhere.
Only route that I haven't checked (which I'm checking now) is the psychosomatic one, I mean psychotherapy is helping me a lot now, but so far not with this issue.

[Anonymous No.10234510]

Bump

[Anonymous No.10234576]

>>10230194
>>10230112
>>10230879
>>10230975
as long as you don't go above 2x prescription dose, nothing will happen
I honestly don't get why some drugs are illegal.
Adderall is as addictive as a chocolate bar or coffee and has the same downsides more or less. I think it was made illegal cause some retard decided to yolo it and snorted 10 pills
for those of you who have never tried it, this is what it feels like:
>your less sleepy
>if you decide to do something, you won't lose concentration
that's pretty much it
if you've ever read an interesting book or watched a good film, you've experienced a dopamine rush

[Anonymous No.10234660]

>>10230194
>unironically citing the ricaurte "study"

Jesus Christ this board has gotten awful

[Anonymous No.10234675]

>>10234576
This is basically the consensus I have reached after my many years of using/abusing it. The trouble starts with developing a tolerance and allowing yourself to succumb to the addictive cravings (i.e. taking higher and higher doses when you don't feel high enough).

That's why the drug is classified as one with high potential for abuse.

[Anonymous No.10234745]

>>10230194
>>weight gain
>>more tired
>>worse reactions
>hur dur i'm growing old, must be side effects of adderall
the future is now, boomer

[Anonymous No.10236094]

>>10231584
A methhead can smoke an ounce of meth in under a week. Multiple grams a day essentially.

[Anonymous No.10238225]

i got a vyvanse script it's dope but costs sooo much money

[Anonymous No.10238435]

>>10238225
switch to meth boss. cheaper and feels better.

[Anonymous No.10238524]

>>10238435
i can't get desoxyn, duh.

[Anonymous No.10239955]

>>10230194
>its extremely similar to meth and street speed, they obviously have long term negative effects so be conservative with your intake and consider cessation of amphetamines after schooling ends.

Exactly. Pic related compares the meth and adderall molecule structure. Just look at the serotonin molecule. The amine (NH2 group) is similar to the adderall molecule so it plugs into serotonin receptors the same as serotonin but the rest of the molecule is altered causing a different effect. When you start adding carbonyl groups to amines/amides where the molecules are serotonin receptor antagonists it effects psychoactivity a great deal. For example, look at the lysergic acid amide (LSA) molecule where the amide group has NH2. The only difference between LSA and lysergic acid diethylamine (LSD) is 4 carbons and 8 hydrogens. Those carbons (diethyl carbonyl group) are directly attached to the nitrogen of amide group on LSD, replacing the 2 hydrogens previously directly attached to nitrogen of the LSA molecule amide group. This C4H8 increases potency, visuals, and neurological effects by a factor of 10. Considering this, every carbon that is directly attached to nitrogen of a serotonin receptor antagonists must attribute to its increase of psychoactivity. As far as dependency goes that is hard to say, but I would imagine adderall is relatively harmless considering it has a NH2 group and not a NHCH3 group like meth.

[Anonymous No.10241081]

>>10239955
i mean difference of a methyl group is hugely significant in making one completely safe (in moderation) and the other an addictive poison. Look at the difference between methionine and homocysteine, the difference is a methyl group yet homocystinuria is a disease and methionine is an important amino acid in dna synthesis

[Anonymous No.10241280]

>>10241081
Well, the H3C-S-C group on the essential amino acid Methionine is much less reactive than the H-S-C group on Homocysteine. Look at the two S atoms in the molecule Allicin, an organosulfur compound obtained from garlic: Both Sulfurs are contained between to Carbons making them mostly unreactive. Sulfur [16] has 6 valence electrons and usually forms 2 bonds because it wants a full octet to be like the noble gas Argon [18]. Once S has made 2 bonds, it has 4 valence electrons it can "expand its octet" with, and the electron whore O can bond to it also. R-S-H groups are Thiols, really nasty smelly sulfur analogues of alcohols that are fairly reactive (Thiols are easily deprotonated, more acidic relative to alcohols). High dose of Homocystiene leads to inflammation of blood cells leading to possible artery disease/blood clot. The methyl (CH3) group does a great job cock blocking the deprotonation of S atom. Homocystinuria is an inherited metabolic disorder and has different chirality at the 2-carbon between amino group [NH2] and ethylthiol group [C2H5S]. Same molecular formula with different chirality can have different effects.

[Anonymous No.10241323]

>>10241280
>>10241081
>>10239955
most of what you say makes sense but it very clearly does have long term side effects and is not completely harmless, dopamine response blunting and possible issues with weight gain and sleep do seem like legitimate worries. I’ve seen people become absolutely retarded spazoids from abusing dexamph for years in hs and dependency at least in the short-medium term is demonstrable, doesn’t require much in the way of proving, that’s not the same thing as physical addiction like benzos or opioids.