/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.11127995]

>wants to understand more in deep about X disease that I have
>"hurr talk to your doctor" reddit replies everywhere
>actually go and talk to the damn doctor
>he provides a vague and ambiguous brainlet explanation without any logical structure whatsoever, clearly showing that his knowledge about it is superficial very little backed by hard data
Wow, doctors are such gods, so above us lesser mortals.

[Anonymous No.11128047]

>>11127995
>he provides a vague and ambiguous brainlet explanation without any logical structure whatsoever, clearly showing that his knowledge about it is superficial very little backed by hard data
That's because that is how it is for the vast majority of illness without obvious mechanical pathology (i.e. fractures, perforations etc.)

[Anonymous No.11128050]

>>11127995

[Anonymous No.11128088]

>>11127995
What's your issue? Are you the dementia schizo?

[Anonymous No.11128114]

>>11127995
What the fuck did you think? The purpose of doctors is to identify diseases and treat them, not study them. If you want to know useless data look for the papers yourself, nothing's stopping you.

[Anonymous No.11128123]

>>11128047
>>11128114
Those fucks don't have any half-accurate models that involves actual data to explain shit? Is everything thing this hand wavy in medicine?
God, I would drop med school in the first semester in fear of becoming a brainlet

[Anonymous No.11128127]

>>11128123
>Those fucks don't have any half-accurate models that involves actual data to explain shit?
More or less no.

[Anonymous No.11128132]

>>11128123
>reeee why is my GP not giving me a 1 hour lecture on diabetes!!!!???

[Anonymous No.11128137]

>>11128114
they ought to have a strong understanding of the physiological, genetic and molecular mechanisms giving rise to a disease but tend to lack even basic knowledge of those subjects so that they are incapable of proper diagnosis and treatment plans. this is why pre-meds all need to be gassed

[Anonymous No.11128155]

>>11128137
>they ought to have a strong understanding of the physiological, genetic and molecular mechanisms giving rise to a disease
That's what pathologists, medical physicists, biochemists, physiologists and so on are for. MDs are just for cutting into people and following guidelines created by the aforementioned.

[Anonymous No.11128166]

>>11128123
>>11128137

What exactly do you think treating diseases involve? Do you think the useless effort you want those doctors to make is congruent with the salary the receive on top of having full responsibility on lawsuits and the life of the patient itself?

Medicine is not for everyone. You want to wank on useless data, become a biochemist or some shit. The difference between that and a doctor is that a doctor doesn't have the luxury to play with people's lives, his trade is identifying a problem and giving treatment.

>>11128155
>pathologist
A pathologist is an MD that looks at slides to identify cancer.

[Anonymous No.11128170]

>>11128166
So you are saying doctors are just the technicians of the medical field? They shouldn't have the salary and prestige they have then, fucking overpraised brainlets

[Anonymous No.11128171]

>>11128137
>this is why pre-meds need to be gassed
Curious. You sound exactly like a dumb pre-med who went into the degree without making any research whatsoever about what the job is about.

[Anonymous No.11128184]

>>11128166
Right, but pathologists and histologists are usually the ones with the best understanding of pathogenesis, pathophysiology and so on.

[Anonymous No.11128187]

>>11128170
What salary are you talking about? If you're talking about the hyperinflated shit you get in the US, that's capitalism at work, brainlet autist. People started to make a business from extorting money from the doctors, so they started paying them more to make less mistakes, to the point the US won't let non-specialists practice medicine, USMLE is required to drop 50% of its appliccants and afterwards residency programs are reserved the right to admit only the highest scores, if residents do bad in further exams the government closes down that residency program.

[Anonymous No.11128191]

>>11128187
Quit your bullshit, doctors earn more than medical researchers everywhere

[Anonymous No.11128195]

>>11128184
Yeah, they don't need to see patients, the look at slides. They don't feel the pressure of lawsuit and are free to study more, plus understanding the histologic changes require them understanding the processes that lead to them.

[Anonymous No.11128203]

>>11128191
Then why the fuck am i starving. Piss off mutt. You don't fucking know the shit you whine about. The real world works in terms of investments and profits. Medicine isn't worth shit unless the people are willing to pay for health, which in most of the world they are not.

[Anonymous No.11128206]

>>11128170
I can smell the seething master in biochem or some shitty equivalent degree who thinks he is the new Neuberg because he played with glass in a lab for 5 years.
Go back on working on an aroma for dog food or some meme trash like that while doctors save people lives and make mad bucks.

[Anonymous No.11128216]

Probably because he/she is too busy contemplating suicide

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20180508/doctors-suicide-rate-highest-of-any-profession#1

[Anonymous No.11128218]

>>11128206
Lucky doctors make mad bucks in the US. Doctors don't save lives either, they slow down death if the patient is willing. However i am admired at the sheer amount of actual autists in this board, it really tells they have never hungered and that they haven't spent a fucking day out of their homes.

[Anonymous No.11128220]

>>11128206
>Save lives
Doctors destroy lives by not setting lifestyle guidelines and resorting to drugs for every little thing. Their costs are overinflated because of arbitrary quotas, a third of residencies are filled by internationals.

[Anonymous No.11128229]

>>11128220
Treat yourself then. Nobody forces you to go to a doctor. Start some bullshit paramedicine career based on your "hard data" and see how far you get.

[Anonymous No.11128289]

>>11128206
>I can smell the seething master in biochem or some shitty equivalent degree
Comp sci, actually.
Its just frustrating shaping your entire mindset around hard and unambiguous logic, only to find out that the person responsible for treating you doesn't share this mindset and instead relies on intuition and "experience".
I can't wait for comp sci to make those untalented arrogant retards obsolete.

[Anonymous No.11128305]

>>11128289
Sounds like you've had a problem with choosing your own degree. Then again, that's completely your fault. Have you ever considered Doctors have to treat people who are plain dumb? Sometimes they have to treat people with mental retardation, which is a clinical diagnosis itself, other times you have to treat people who simply don't accept the treatment you offer or have grave misunderstandings on what they believe heals them (there are people who believe boiling some plants will treat their kidney disease). How do you wrap around your logic into treating people who are in nature illogical? How do you manage to put sensors on them if they are not even capable of using a fucking phone?

Stay to your shit field if you're comfortable with it. Maybe some day you'll grow up and realize the world works as it is and that innovations are rare, and that most of the work you will do is simply ineffective or not efficient enough for the real needs.

[Anonymous No.11128322]

Also, Evidence based medicine is a fucking joke. It may have confirmed a few truths but is now creating an even greater amount of half-truths. It seems the model was rather a convenient way for publishers to monopolize the creation of content rather than an actual effort to discover truths.

[Anonymous No.11128357]

>>11127995
If you actually want to learn about whatever diagnosis you have, ask them to print off the uptodate file on whatever they diagnosed you with. Moreover, unless you're seeing a specialist, you should never expect a doctor to have more than cursory knowledge on your diagnosis unless it's super common.

[Anonymous No.11128386]

>>11128289
>it's another episode of code monkeys thinking they can totally fix diagnosis with an app
Just go ahead, we're watching you buddy.

>hard and unambiguous logic
It's not economically viable to put everyone in a RMI machine nor making hundreds of different blood tests everytime someone has a stomachache.
Even if it was the case medicine isn't an exact discipline in any case, it's mostly based on a lot of empiricism and statistical approaches.

>instead relies on intuition and "experience".
Any doctor under 40 these days follows a general protocol based on EBM.
Besides there is nothing wrong relying on the experience of someone who have seen hundreds of cases of the same pathologies.

If you think you're misdiagnosed you can always see someone else , unless you're an hypochondriac schizo, in this case just stick to your impotent rage on a nigerian biathlon mail list.

[Anonymous No.11128414]

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8nk7GrB-zs
>14:10
=)

[Anonymous No.11128560]

>>11128289
>I can't wait for comp sci to make those untalented arrogant retards obsolete.
It's already on its way.

[Anonymous No.11128670]

>>11128386
>It's not economically viable to put everyone in a RMI machine nor making hundreds of different blood tests everytime someone has a stomachache.
You are right, solving this is the crucial step to really kickstart things.
This motivated me to go full autism and elaborate more: >>11128667

[Anonymous No.11130277]

>>11127995
>>"hurr talk to your doctor" reddit replies everywhere
Does this surprise you?
The average ledditor has no idea what a Cochrane Review is, and thinks their GP knows everything.

[Anonymous No.11130281]

>>11128206
>doctors save people lives
Given that like half of peoples' medical problems are caused by previous treatments, that's a bold claim.
You are a parasite.

[Anonymous No.11130283]

>>11130277
Even better, many of these same quack worshipers had their penises mutilated by said quacks shortly after birth, are upset about it, yet still worship quacks anyway.

[Anonymous No.11130287]

>>11130283
>ask dr shekleberg

[Anonymous No.11130293]

>>11127995
Hydrocephalic reporting for duty.
You're right, anon, to a degree. I tried asking my neurosurgeon about the mechanism behind my condition, and was told, quite frankly, that it was not at all understood. With communicating hydrocephalus, there is no blockage in the brain preventing the circulation of cerebrospinal fluid. Current theory postulates that the cilia lining the brain's ventricles are damaged in utero, which leads to the development of the condition soon after birth. But they're not sure.
In any case, I'm quite grateful that my doctors spent the majority of their time studying the treatment, rather than the etiology of hydrocephalus. Otherwise I'd look like pic related, and would probably have expired years ago.

[Anonymous No.11130732]

>>11127995
>hurr talk to your doctor" reddit replies everywhere
Don't go to reddit if you don't want to read reddit replies.

[Anonymous No.11130742]

>>11128206
Doctors write prescriptions for drugs made by the work of biochemists, chemists, engineers, vetrinarians, molecular biologists, and biophysicists. The drugs save the patients or improve their lifestyles.

[Anonymous No.11130741]

>>11130732
"reddit replies" was just a general term for basedboy replies, you see "talk to your doctor!!!" replies on the entire internet, because everyone treat medical information as some sacred knowledge that just a few elite are allowed to have, its stupid.

[Anonymous No.11130768]

>>11130293
The shunts used in treating that condition were only possible with the work of hydraulic and biomedical engineers though. Interestingly enough, author Roald Dahl was involved in the innovation of one of them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade-Dahl-Till_valve

[Anonymous No.11130776]

There's nothing a doctor knows that you can't find on wikipedia or dynamed

[Anonymous No.11130860]

>>11130742
The patient saves himself and he improves his own lifestyle. The drugs are a suplement which the patient chooses or not to take

[Anonymous No.11130898]

>>11130860
Not in the case of diseases that arise from chance.

[Anonymous No.11130908]

>>11127995
Doctor wants to know more about disease.
Make 10000 people suffer from same symptoms.
Knows nothing more about actual disease.
$300k year job selling pills is $300k yearly.

Epidemics are easier to cure, but diseases with similar symptoms are only distinguishable and curable "morally" after years of research.

Psychological disease can't be viewed this way, as there is generational gap in kids that are years apart now. Maybe like one year.

However they got common root traits, that are often social ground problems.

As it comes to any learning system, some are... They won't have ever to be the "non ill" part by certain systems.

[Anonymous No.11130913]

>>11130898
>diseases that arise from chance
Fake news.

[Anonymous No.11130919]

>>11130908
Another example is diabetes.

Pure chemical resolution is that body have insulin problems.

Biological resolution is that body have some enzymatic disfunction.

I know it's easier to inject somebody with insulin for the rest of their life.

Enzymatic problems is pretty harder to research, but with our current computational and analytical resources the "reboot" of enzymatic system or it's correction to react or produce insulin is much better for patients "demanded" lifestyle.

It can be more riskier, but... ;

However, to find out enzymatic system problems, you would have to examine "healthy" enzymatic system to know how "healthy" looks like.

Now back to psychiatry... Does patient remains healthy after being forcefully locked up on something that for sure causes chemical imbalance, if we want to know what healthy is?

[Anonymous No.11130924]

>>11130913
No... Syfilis arises only of chance of getting sex or otherwise interacting fluid to fluid.

If you live in sterile conditions there is no chance.

[Anonymous No.11130944]

>>11130913
Genetic diseases, some metabolic diseases, and cancers

[Anonymous No.11130949]

>>11130924
>>11130944
None random.

[Anonymous No.11130954]

>>11130949
Random?

When I read it loudly I think more of a dimethoxymethylamphetamin running like a subroutine....

I don't know what that words mean.

Determinsim has a fog distance beyond which some less advanced beings, maybe more advanced beyond the fog of discovery... But those beings call "random" stuff beyond fog distance of determinism. You mean this random? Still no chance, chance is when you roll a dice, which is deterministic principle too.

I tough from my analysis of language used, that random means non-deterministic. Myself is not able to determine should be different word, just for clarity in self description.

[Anonymous No.11130957]

>>11130954
God plays dice but is good friend with guy throwing's them and they both understand basic principles of mechanics?

[Anonymous No.11130962]

Worrying about doctor being superficial or replaceable or whatever is dumb.
Even if it was true, even is the whole medicine pill was just glorified drug dealing - which I personally doubt but that's not the point - it wouldn't matter.
Doctors are an elite. If tomorrow some guy in a garage came out with an app or something that made them completely obsolete, they would still hold their places. There would be riots. One thing is replacing taxi drivers or pony pizza, they have no powers, no networks. The world doesn't care about morals, innovations or efficiency, it cares about power and hierarchies, and doctors are near the top.
If you were to make a device capable of diagnosing any disease and treat it with 100% accuracy, they would wait till your death to acknowledge it and then pull some useless task out of their asses to give to doctors so that they can maintain their status.


>>11128414
BASED

[Anonymous No.11130969]

>>11127995
Provide specific examples
>Reddit replies everywhere
I'll give you that.

[Anonymous No.11131042]

>>11128206

Your entire field is applied human biology supported by several more fundamental fields and is only marketed as important because doctors are the visible faces for the common people when they have something they don't understand or know how to fix, it's not really strange that your field is being overtaken by AIs when most of your work can be reduced to one big flowchart.

[Anonymous No.11131090]

>>11131042
>Your entire field is applied physics supported by several more fundamental fields and is only marketed as important because engineers are the visible faces for the common people when they have something they don't know how to build, it's not really strange that your field is being overtaken by AIs when most of your work can be reduced to one big flowchart.

>Your entire field is heuristic supported by several more fundamental fields and is only marketed as important because developers are the visible faces for the common people when they want to display something on a screen, it's not really strange that your field is being overtaken by AIs when most of your work can be reduced to one big flowchart.

>Your entire field is applied chemistry supported by several more fundamental fields and is only marketed as important because chemists are the visible faces for the common people when they want to make a new soup or dog food, it's not really strange that your field is being overtaken by AIs when most of your work can be reduced to one big flowchart.

[Anonymous No.11131115]

>>11128289
>compsci
>hard and unambiguous logic
Legit bursted in laughter, med niggers are annoying sometimes but the ego of you code pajeets is mindblowing.
99% of you are just writing baby tier boolean logic and copy pasting stack overflow, I don't know if medniggers will be replaced by AI but if they are they could easily have a reconversion as code monkeys like you.

Seeing the progression of languages from BASIC to Python and all its libraries there is no doubt code monkeys will go way of the dodo in less than 20 years, Microsoft buying Github to datamine the shit out of it is the first hint.
Feels good to be a MathChad.

[Anonymous No.11131440]

>>11130741
>basedboy replies
Who?

[Anonymous No.11132773]

>>11130954
Regardless if the universe is deterministic or not, there a lot of factors that you don't control, genetics for example, and you can't do anything to prevent a non-zero chance of developing some disease.

[Anonymous No.11132774]

>>11127995
>Wow, doctors are such gods, so above us lesser mortals.
Kek most of them do think that way desu

[Anonymous No.11132784]

>>11131090
Nah, the "flowchart property" of doctor work is way stronger compared to other more intelectually challenging fields

[Anonymous No.11132787]

>>11131115
>Feels good to be a MathChad.
Math is a subset of computer science your retard. Whatever scribbles you can do on the blackboard I can do better in a code editor, and with the power of heuristics that algorithms provide I can do far more useful things while you are playing your puzzle games of analytical solutions and proofs that no one gives a shit other than your retard autistic peers

[Anonymous No.11132802]

>>11132787
>>11132784
Enjoy being automated by Google and Microsoft dunning kruger monkeys

[Anonymous No.11133532]

>>11130962
If it's all about power hierarchies why are JDs getting automated? Lawyer and doctor are the typical "prestigious" professions

[Anonymous No.11133592]

>>11128123
go back to counting prime numbers you autistic baby

[Anonymous No.11133624]

Good luck performing surgery+anaesthesia on yourself, you 300 iq compsci nigger :^)

[Anonymous No.11133650]

>>11130768
True, but that doesn't discount the efforts of all the surgeons and diagnosticians (as well as nurses and techs) who've worked on me.
I remember hearing about Dahl's work on shunts as a kid. Fascinating story.

[Anonymous No.11134563]

>>11128305
I worked at a large hospital doing tech support work for a couple years, and a constant theme with doctors is that they're fucking clueless, arrogant people. A golden combo. Less than half of them are willing to learn anything new. They think they're a god or something. Most of them were pissy that they were being pushed off of paper towards electronic records, despite the electronic charts always being up to date and always recording information in a structured way. Some actually resorted to taking notes on a clipboard and handing it to a nurse to actually enter in the system, even though this lead to some mistakes and the latency caused problems for doctors who did use the electronic charts.
One doctor actually threw his laptop because the wifi wasn't working. The problem? The on/off switch was in the off position. It turned out he did it to get a new one, because his "kept breaking and he can't keep calling a tech out each time". Of course, he was told what the issue was and how to turn the wifi back on the last three times someone went out, but he obviously didn't listen at all. This isn't unexpected though. His new machine had the switch glued, and the day he got it he brought it back saying the on/off switch wouldn't move. Since he claimed complete ignorance every step of the way and was generally not willing to talk. It took us to this point to realize he was switching the wifi off before closing the lid, thinking it turned the computer off. Then sometimes he didn't switch it on when he opened the lid, and since he never linked the switch to the internet in his head, he would never have thought to check it. The guy was a gp. I feel sorry for his patients.
Nurses were pretty based though. They were generally willing to learn and you could usually get at least one nurse at a station to do very basic support stuff with a few minutes of training. I felt bad for them, as they had to deal with some really nasty doctors and really stupid docs.

[Anonymous No.11134765]

>>11133532
>JDs are getting automated
Qutation needed

[Anonymous No.11135568]

GPs man, I know that feel. Thank God for based surgeons though.

[Anonymous No.11135670]

>>11127995
That's why all doctors call what they do a "practice".

[Anonymous No.11135677]

>>11128187
I'm not sure I'd chalk it all up to capitalism. Medicine is heavily regulated here, from having government authority over how people practice, prohibiting certain scope of practices, certificates of need to reduce competition between healthcare providers, government involvement in the residency process... even the shortage if certain physicians now had a contribution through lobbyist activity in the 1990s that insisted there would be more than 100,000 excess doctors by the year 2000, to get Congress on board reducing the supply of physicians.

[Anonymous No.11135702]

>>11130919
How about thenrole of adverse childhood experiences, intergenerational trauma, and epigenetic changes which are associated with risk of diabetes and chronic disease? And the individual factors that result in metabolic syndrome, obesity, and subsequent development and maintenance of T2DM?

[Anonymous No.11137658]

>>11127995
>ambiguous brainlet explanation without any logical structure whatsoever,
That's what medicine is like.

[Anonymous No.11137701]

Nothing is stopping any motivated person to do their own research to verify your doctor's diagnosis. And by research I do not mean to google "leg hurts", but actually get some proper scientific literature, libgen and scihub.

However everyone doing that should be aware that you are lacking the experience of an actual practitioner. Still it is better to double check your doctor's work, since many doctors rely on outdated knowledge.