/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9979692
but i don't want to

>>9979692
I don't want to so I choose not to

>>9979694
>>9979696
>"""YOU"""
>"""Choose"""
year okay buddy.

>>9979698
A person with free will will choose the option best for them

>>9979692
We're social beings. A fun social life is just as important as food, water and exercise.

>>9979692
>tfw op hasn't transcended his physical form
nice projecting

>>9979700
They WILL choose? So you're saying they have a predetermined guaranteed action that they WILL perform and it's only qualifier is that it's "best for them". That sounds easy to predict. I guess people don't have free will.

>>9979702
Exactly. There is a strong aversion to avoiding these things, and this aversion is usually only compensated for with distractions. If you take away those to things you'll drive a man insane and he would definitely """choose""" to partake in them if offered the choice. Ergo, no free will.

>>9979704
You're definition of free will seems to be people whose choices are random which is incorrect.

>>9979704
no, they will choose a path that's best for them.

not they will choose one specific path.

LOGIC :o

>>9979706
Who the fuck has free will? I mean, even if we have quantum whatever decision-making that isn't deterministic, we still have no choice about our place/time of birth and slice of reality. Making the rational decision doesn't mean you're a slave to your instincts, it means you're sensible.

>>9979692
>sustain yourself
>do things that don't sustain yourself

>>9979710
I'm not saying it's random. I'm saying it's determined by environmental and biological factors.

>>9979714
>They will choose the one specific path that's best for them.
Yes that's what I'm saying. I'm glad we agree.

The fact is people don't choose what's best for them. Look at drugs and addictions. Not even necessarily physical addictions but psychological dependencies. It links back to my other post here, >>9979706.

10/10 brilliant OP. Dualists unironically rek'd.

>>9979719
You could argue a drug addiction IS what's best for you. Why slave away an absurd existence if you can have pleasure highs you would have never reached living a clean life? You're going to die no matter what so you might as well enjoy yourself.

>>9979719
>I'm not saying it's random. I'm saying it's determined by environmental and biological factors
Factors which due to quantum mechanics cannot be known with certainty therefore making someones choices non deterministic.

>>9979727
So you're saying pleasure is the ultimate good and that addiction to a drug is somehow the best thing for you? I don't think so. Obviously pleasure plays into it but the question is why? Why does pleasure have such a high hold on our actions? Because we don't have a choice. Addiction is determined by environmental factors and biological. Some people are genetically predisposed to addiction. How can you answer this without accepting determinism? If we had free will then pleasure and pain wouldn't exist. These things only exist to push us in the direction which most benefits the propagation of the species. Emotions and feelings literally prove determinism. And funnily enough they make people vary uncomfortable with the idea of determinism.

>>9979692
>Do not mingle with other people
Oh fucking wow so hard. Is this a fucking joke? I haven't left the house in two weeks and haven't made eye contact with my mom for days

>>9979738
>If we had free will then pleasure and pain wouldn't exist.
Then we wouldn't exist.

Suppose we eliminate pleasure and pain in the future, if that's even possible. Would we have free will then, or would we be bored out of our minds and depressed husks?

>>9979740
And you do what? Play games and masturbate all day? Distract yourself from your existence? Hide away from the strong aversion you feel? Try not playing games or distracting yourself with pointless shit and suddenly you won't feel so good about not talking to people.

>>9979743
Boredom wouldn't exist. Depression wouldn't exist. With free will life's meaningless becomes apparent.

Now don't mistake me for some depressed suicidal schizophrenic. I'm just bouncing ideas of you guys to see if anyone can come up with a reasonable response to my ponderings. I'm not going to stop living my life or enjoying it any less because it's determined. I'm going to enjoy the ride just like any other roller coaster.

>>9979748
It's the only roller coaster there is :^)

I fucking hate existentialism.

>>9979738
Pleasure and pain proves free will exists as they exist to motivate something with the ability to choose to choose what is best for itself.
If we had no free will then we wouldn't need pleasure or pain because they wouldn't do anything.

>>9979748
In fact I'd say becoming comfortable with determinism sets you free from all the bullshit trivialities that make you sad in everyday life.

>>9979752
Think of your brain like a circuit. It's actually a very close analogy. The chemicals and electrical signals, which are both very entwined, cause reactions which create more signals and reactions. On the most basic level just look at logic gates. I argue we are just a series of these gates, a very complicated series, but a series none the less.

>>9979744
>implying I do those things
Most days I stare at the wall until I'm tired enough to fall asleep. I haven't read a book or watched a movie or played a game for months. I haven't had an erection since 2016.

>>9979757
That's interesting. Tell me more. What is your full routine? How do you sustain yourself?

>>9979753
>becoming comfortable with determinism
Surely we have no choice as to whether we're comfortable with determinism, as our comfort itself is determined. We are helpless to actively prefer one thing or another

>>9979761
>How do you sustain yourself
I tell myself that one day I'll have the energy and motivation for suicide.

>>9979692

You're free to believe what you want buddy.

>>9979762
Correct. But obviously I still need to make this post so that those who would be influenced by it are and then they make their own "choice". I can't tell you why I started this thread. I just did.

>>9979692
This joke backfired on you so hard because I have done those for MONTHS.

>>9979768
I argue that I'm not, and neither are you.

>>9979767
So you don't sustain yourself then? You're on a road to destruction, slowly deteriorating. The que

>>9979767
>>9979772
*The question is why don't you act on the feelings of aversion (depression) and do something other than killing yourself? What makes you want to stay in your current. What do you feel other than aversion?

>>9979770
>I still need
Poor choice of words I'd say. There was no 'need' that you decided on, just a chain of events that resulted in the post. There was a helpless zombie acting a predestined path. It's like saying a ball 'needs' to roll down the slope.

>>9979774
Language is constructed as though we are agents. Words the accurately described determinism are few and far between. The closet you can to are analogies and metaphors like, "a helpless zombie acting a predestined path".

>>9979773
>why don't you act on the feelings of aversion
What choice do I have? I can't act other than I do, I have no free will or agency

>>9979780
You can act other than you do. People do it everyday. Just because it's determined doesn't mean it's somehow inconceivable. Actions still spawn from thoughts and thoughts still spawn from emotions. All I'm saying is we have no control over our emotions. You can still change. You just need a reason to, a reason other than yourself.

An artist spent 12 hours painting then erasing every minute of a clock in real time to be used in an art installation.

Thats an example of what anyone can do if they *want* to do it.

I do not want to sit still for hours because someone challenged me to but I could do it if I wanted to.

>>9979785
1. They had a reason to do it.
2. No you couldn't. You likely won't even try but if you did you would fail. You don't have the ability to do nothing for 7 days. It violates millennia of evolution to do nothing.

>>9979788
Just find someone autistic and they would do it easy peezy.

define free will

>>9979784
>You can still change.
Possibly, but that's not something I have any control over. I can't choose to change because choice isn't possible.

>>9979791
Autists crave stimulation and distraction. That's why they're so good at specific things like memorizing all the bus times for an entire city or something.

>>9979794
I didn't say you did have a choice. I just said you can change if you have a reason. You can go looking for a reason if you want a reason. No one comes from nothing and no one changes for nothing. Just find something to change you if that appeals to you.

>>9979798
>You can go looking for a reason if you want a reason
That's the point. Possibly one day I will look for a reason. But I can't decide to start looking for a reason. Unless it randomly happens that the universe determines that I look, or that I want one, I'm where I am and can't change.

>>9979798
So he can change if he chooses to do so
Good to know

>>9979803
He can change if the right stimulus causes a chemical reaction that makes him change.

>>9979802
Why can't you change. If you believe in determinism then you can identify why would feel the way you do. If you can't do that then there's no reason for you to believe you can't change.

Free will has nothing to do with action you god forsaken mongoloids, even if you were unable to move, you'd exercise your free will by UNDERSTANDING THE CONCEPT OF BEING A UNIT
if "you" understand what "you" is, that's free will

ITT: willlets

>>9979806
>>9979807

Will, Noun.
"the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action."

ITT: Determined Brainlets from birth.

>>9979810
>Will = Free Will
retardation
riːtɑːˈdeJʃ(ə)n/
noun
the action of delaying or slowing the progress or development of something.

>>9979814
Free = Free, Will = Will, Free Will = Free + Will.
Free + Will = "The faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action free as one wishes; not under the control of another."
I know it's hard to grasp on concept of joining words together to create new meanings but I'm sure you'll get it eventually.

>>9979819
acting in control of someone else that can exercise free will means you're exercising free will by your own definition

>>9979804
>If you believe in determinism then you can identify why
But I cannot control my own thoughts. Everything has been predetermined and there is no input I can have into my thoughts or actions, anymore than a ball can decide how quickly it rolls down the slope.

>>9979806
>Free will has nothing to do with action
>Shrinking your dualist scope so fucking hard to avoid getting rekd

>>9979846
It has nothing to do with action, still
it's is the knowledge of being

>>9979692
That's literally a thing since forever and it's called " contemplative prayer "

>>9979855
>contemplative prayer
And since forever it's an unsuccessful attempt at OP's challenge

>>9979692

your logic is stupid

Test.

>>9979883
Flawless rebuttal.

>>9979884
based Test poster

Does it actually matter?

Can't we just say we are predetermined to believe we have free will?

>>9979692
I just responded to you, automatically invalidating your entire post, sorry OP.

>>9979959
https://www.cleverbot.com/

>>9979692
Funnily enough, I already did this, not for one week but for three days, I was watching V Sauce's episode on isolation and wondered "hey I have a vacant room with no windows, I can do that" and so I locked myself in with basic supplies and a mattress for three days.

Was a strange experience, I was planning on doing it again anyways do you have an email address I can send you updates on OP ?

>>9979692
If lack of free will for humans means not going against the instinct to survive, that would mean no human would be capable of going against the animal instinct to survive.

Regardless, strict limitations does not mean there is no free will. The free will v determinism is about whether randomness is a construct of reality.

>>9980018
eburn085@gmail.com

>>9980008
Probably phishing but feel free to surprise me.
eburn085@gmail.com

>>9979698
succumbing to doing what OP says means that OP chose this for me. I will have let myself be mainpulated by him, which by its very definition, is not free will...

>>9979692
In my shithole european country, there's an interesting therapy. basically they lock you up in a cabin in complete darkness, there's only a matress, water and they fetch you food several times a day. of course you can quit any time. people do a few days up to weeks (I think 7 days is usual) and they say it truly changes your life.

>>9980026
You do what other people say all the time. In fact every opinion you have has been molded by other people, whether it's your family, friends, or strangers on the internet.

>>9980029
Sensory deprivation? I thought it becomes uncomfortable after a while

>>9979692
Should have wrote 40 days and 40 nights.
Wasted potential

>>9979692
I did this once when my power went out for around 24 hours and I couldn't contact the power company. I sat in my chair for hours at a time while doing more or less nothing. Maybe you just lack concentration, so speak for yourself

You have free will, but your free will doesn't manifest anywhere outside of your head.

>>9980044
24=/=168

>>9980058
the first 24 hours are the hardest; also this is a bullshit justification for your nonsense argument. every human has free will that has to be utilized actively, and it is a weak mental force I'll readily accept that.
>I don't have to prove myself
then you have no proof because otherwise you would do it

>>9979706
I was writing a long serious response, but OP's levels of brainletism ITT don't warrant one.

>>9980031
Gee maybe people don't act like complete autists and listen to other people because social interactions are worthwhile? Maybe doing this is retarded because we have things we have to attend to and this would make that much more difficult?

>>9979692
I've done this for years at a time. People suck and aren't interesting. Things are all fucked up. Examining thought experiments in detail for extended periods of time isn't a hardship, it's a welcome respite.

>>9979692
everyone is damned to have total free will

You claim that people have no free will. Let's say you're right. With this information, what should we do? How does this change things?

>>9979692
>those born with the ability to do so
yikes. good luck with that narrative.

>>9979692
>Hey girl, you don't have free will and I can prove it.
>Oh yeah?
>If you had free will then you could suck my dick.
>Anon, I really need to prove to you that I have free will so I will suck your dick.
>WorksEveryTime.jpg

>free will means choosing to do things you don't want to do

Do people still buy into the free-will meme?

>>9981219
>genetics aren't real
the fuck you doing on /sci/?

>>9979692
Extremely good post OP. Most people will tell themselves "I could do this if I wanted to, I just don't want to" and they WILL rationalize it away when they fail. This isn't difficult, it requires you to do literally nothing. But none of us have ever done it.

"I don't want to" is an excuse. I've had this EXACT same thought in the OP countless times. I tried this one time, and I lasted for 10 minutes counting in my head meditating in front of a lake, and it was sort of a memorable experience in my life. The only time I can do this is when I "have" to, like if I'm stuck in an airport or waiting for a bus. When I have options, I can't do it.

>>9981284
Thank you, also most people have their phones with them wherever they go and so even if they have to wait for something they'll just distract themselves with their phone. Additionally, a few hours waiting for a plane is nothing compared to a whole week. Most people seem to think because they can do it for some small amount of time that they can just extrapolate that to a whole week.

>>9981296
One refutation is that we may not have absolute free will because the concept doesn't make sense. I don't have free will to move walls with my brain, because it's physically impossible. Similarly, I may not have free will to make my body do certain things because boredom may result in neurochemicals building up which create an extremely unpleasant feeling which I becomes more and more difficult to avoid. Even if we are not on an infinitely long leash, as long as the leash is longer than length=0 we can have -some- semblance of free will

>>9981302
That's possible. Just like you can't play Witcher 3 on Windows93 maybe people can't do certain things but can act within the confines of their "programming".

>>9979692
>You have no free will. Don't believe me? For the next 7 days do nothing but sustain yourself. Eat only bread, drink only water, sit only in silence.
You do realize that there are religious orders across the world that do this on a regular basis?

I mean, there are "good" arguments against free will - provided you define it as the ability to defy physics at will, as determinists tend to insist on - but this certainly isn't one of those.

>>9981307
>Windows93
I really want to say global rule #2, but then I remembered how fucking old I am.

And this disproves free will because...?

>>9981326
it's a meme mate calm down. Only the old farts know the difference anyway.

>>9979692
what if instead I buy a horse, break into your house, and leave it in your livingroom?
Didint expect that did ya?

>>9982086
I do now :)

>>9982096
plz dont shoot me or your new wild pi- I mean horse mr. anon.

>>9979700
That's not true though. Many people make choices every day that are bad for them

You have such an undeveloped worldview anon. You’re a slave to the monkey brain
Don’t you know about meditation? How about fasting?

>>9979692
its obvious that there is no free will but this proves nothing

>>9979692
>For the next 7 days do nothing but sustain yourself. Eat only bread, drink only water, sit only in silence.
Find job, dude.

>>9979692
>"Just shoot yourself in the face! The fact that you won't do it means free will does not exist!"

>>9979692
But I'm free to do anything else, ok.

>>9979692
>7 days long shabbat
Nice try, Shlomo. How about freedom to not do your bidding if it doesn't benefit me?

>>9982740
>comparing harming yourself to doing nothing
Nice try kid but we both know why you can't do it.

>>9982732
You can go to your job if you want to. Just don't distract yourself while you're there. Don't talk to co workers or customers anymore than you need to.

>>9983405
Both are not benefical to me while watching tv and such are because it makes me happy. Sure the need to do something is a strong influence, but that doesnt mean it's impossible. This possibility of doing so means free will exist

>>9983645
You do things that make you happy. Do you control your happiness? No, the way your brain is wired makes you happy when you do certain things. You have no free will. You just do what the chemicals in your brain tell you to do.

>>9983653
What if I am the chemicals in my brain?

What if I'm the chemicals in YOUR brain!?

Woah man, deep.

>>9983667
So if I alter the chemicals in your brain with drugs you're no longer you? Sounds good.

>>9983669
What if I'm the chemicals in the drugs you use to alter the chemicals in your brain that caused you to become addicted to the chemicals that you used to alter the chemicals in your brain?

>>9983645
>watching tv and such are because it makes me happy
Hahah did you really convince yourself that you watch TV/play vidya because it makes you happy AND it's "beneficial" to you?

You're doing it to kill boredom and/or drown feelings of depression even if it doesn't produce a microgram of serotonin. You're compelled to do it.

>>9979692
>Do what I tell you to do, or you have no free will.

Not today, CIA.

We have hard coding though dna, eat, sleep, breath. You can fight this coding, starve, meth, suffocate.

Thus free will.

>>9984094
My computer is hardwired to turn on when I press the power button. But for some reason when it was dropped on it's head as a baby computer it stopped working.

then why do people kill themselves

lel checkm8 niga

>>9984666
Because, Satan, because they're depressed. You know what causes depression? Chemicals. I don't know why it's so hard for people to fucking figure this out. Anyone who spends more than a minute thinking about this would come to the same conclusion. If chemicals affect your behavior and are external to your control, you have no free will. Maybe I should give you some fluoride and sedatives, then you'll come around.

>>9984684
>chemicals affect your behavior and are external to your control
But the ones that matter are largely internal, and part of your self-control mechanisms.

>>9984689
If that were true then there would be no need for drugs, sex, or any other so called 'vices' that make people feel good. They'd just feel good.

>>9984684
Might as well say a self driving car isn't self driving because its silicon and circuits do the driving.

>>9984695
But all those things affect the ratios of those chemicals, thus the deliberate seeking behavior.

>>9984698
>But all those things affect the ratios of those chemicals, thus the deliberate seeking behavior.
So you agree. How can you say this and not agree? You're literally saying that people seek things that affect the chemicals in their brain. Thus they have no free will.

>>9984701
They're decision making, pattern recognition systems that operate based on a combination of DNA programming, perception, and past experience. As they are conscious and their knowledge of past, future, and self isn't complete, they experience that decision making process as free will.

Self driving car is still self driving, regardless of it being dependent on electronics or the world around it or the inevitability of its reactions. Lest you wish to demand violation of physics to make the qualification.

>>9984714
So we agree that people have no choice. You just don't qualify the lack of choice as a lack of free will?

>>9984725
They have a choice - if they didn't make a decision, they wouldn't act. Similarly, the self driving car would just go into walls.

The choice is inevitable, but not from their perspective. Same would be true for a conscious self-driving car.

>>9979692
jokes on u im going on a silent retreat B)
then again free will is a meme

>>9979692
Good high-level bait (+1)

>>9979692
Free will is a spectrum, anon.

>>9981243
lol

>>9984763
Ahh, like the autism yes?

>>9984701
Why did the brain chemicals make Bobby Sands go on hunger strike until he died? Surely every natural instinct and heuristic in his brain and all his chemicals were telling him to eat? Did he have a choice as to which chemicals he was going to listen to?

>>9984823
Believe it or not, life isn't the be all and end all. Not everyone clings to life so desperately. Dolphins will often beach themselves if they're sick.

>>9979692
What if I use Free Will, and choose not to follow any of your instructions?

>>9983653
That would be freedom from yourself, which is not freedom, but slavery to external conditions.

>>9979906
Estrogen spotted

>>9984823
Not all chemicals.

>>9984831
Sands was a perfectly healthy young man. If humans are the slaves of our brain chemistry, why did he died? Why did the chemicals care about the political status of prisoners in Northern Ireland?

>>9984985
I said we don't have free will. I didn't say we're retarded monkeys. Obviously the processes in our brains are much more complicated than anything we can compare to, but we're still just a series of processes, ones capable of abstract logics. I don't know about the man but from the quick search I'd say he died doing what he thought was right. Just because it doesn't result in the immediate propagation of genetic material doesn't make it unimportant.

>>9979692
Who cares

>>9985032
>Obviously the processes in our brains are much more complicated than anything we can compare to, but we're still just a series of processes, ones capable of abstract logics.
So how can you be sure we don't have active input if you don't understand how the system works?

>>9979692
But I have shit to do over a 7 day weekend.
> how would it be free will if you told me to do it?

>>9985073
>I don't do anything anyone tells me and I don't listen to advice because that would mean I don't have free will.
>Yeah that's right
>I'm a rebel

>my experiences of having freewell, making choices and having a self are illusory
>my experiences of reading somewhere that I don't have freewill are real
Really jumbles the old mumbles

>>9985181
You can experience an illusion you tardis.

What?

>>9985192
Your dreams are as real as anything else. Just because it's an illusion doesn't make it not real. How hard is it to understand that. Also how fucking new are you? Link to the post your responding to.

>>9985190
Of course. And people seem so sure that their experiences of freewill and selfhood are illusions, but their experiences of being told those things are illusions are real. I mean, why trust one drug and not the other? That's politics man

>>9985211
What are you talking about. I think my experience of free will and self hood is real. I just think it's an illusion. They are not exclusive properties.

>>9985219
Ok you don't seem very bright so I'll try to explain. You experience freewill etc. You also experience believing freewill is an illusion. Why do you trust the second experience over the first?
You meet two men. First man says the second is a liar. The second man says the first man is a liar. Why do you believe the second man?

>>9984985
>Why did the chemicals care about the political status of prisoners in Northern Ireland?
Chemicals are a reaction to impulses from the brain, which can result from political views.

>>9979692
Does showering for a whole day count? And what's the benifit from this? To think more autistically?

>>9985650
*benefit
When will these typos stop?

>>9985650
>>9985653
You can't do it. That's the point.

>>9979692
>You have no free will.
Speak for yourself.

>OP makes blanket statements about a population he has never met
Wow what a surprise. People fast all the time and go without social contact, you dumb nigger.

>>9988087
Also to touch on the ridiculousness of the proposed argument, you can't believe free will doesn't exist while also simultaneously believing that a very small portion of the population DOES have free will, that's contradictory thinking and is fallacious. Basically, OP is an idiot.

>>9979700
it seems the choice has already been made as to how they will choose things by the objective being to choose the option best for them. if they must follow their objective, they must make 1 single set of optimal choices to achieving their objective, they can't choose not to.