/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9947800
if by meme degree you mean a degree that actually guarantees you a job vs having to suck dicks for a dollar each for at least a year before you get hired with another degree then yes, very much so.

>>9947800
Not if you have any shred of dignity or morals. Most software unconstitutionally harvests data from the user without consent; only reason it's not outright illegal is because of bureaucracy in Washington.

>>9947800
The modern world is built on Computers. CS made that happen and will continue to build it.

>>9947857
Software development isn't the only thing you can do with CS degree.
You don't even need it if you want to be code monkey

>>9947800
CS, a fantastic field borne out of math and engineering, at an unfortunate number of schools is a meme. It is however a legitimate field of study that tackles a lot of interesting problems, from pure math to natural science.

Good schools have math heavy programs. Look to Stanford’s courses on graphics, OS, and theory if you want to see a good CS program. Most good schools should make it easy to double major in math and CS.

>>9947792 shows a pretty basic requirement list of “good” undergrad CS

http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~jean/math-basics.pdf

This is a pretty good survey of the mid to late undergrad math that “good” CS tackles

>>9947800
>Will we develop AI that can program itself?
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1705.08807.pdf

>>9947800
Funny thing is the math of compSci doesn’t bother me, its the actual programming aspect. Programming and troubleshooting is much more of an art than science? I’ve been told by Post Masters in computer science that the former is true but have not heard much on the latter. This is coming from a plebfag.

Programming is becoming the arithmetic of our age; a basic skill.

Engineering degrees are trending towards CS degrees with a particular specialization in some application.

The ability to make a computer "do things" is becoming an essential aspect of pretty much every field of human endeavor. Being good at this is obviously a valuable skill for the future.

More over, I see CS people as a generalized replacement for your average business employee. When I look at say a business analyst, I can't help but think I am far more qualified to do their job than they are. While they are juggling business lingo and fiddling with excel spreadsheets, I could be running monte carlo simulations, fitting regressions, doing unsupervised clustering etc. In their mind these are the domain of a PhD, but these days an above average CS or engineering student could do all of these things straight out of college with a few python libraries.

>>9948421
But business people know things about the business world and the people in it that you don't. And you can't just acquire this information, you have to go through a "hazing" process of networking and competing and whatnot. You can't just read it out of a book.

>>9948424
Sure, but you can view the majority of the knowledge that business people have as just inefficiencies. From a business perspective these are bottlenecks. That one guy in sales who drives most of your business and has all the networking isn't an asset, he is a liability. Technology is smoothing out most of this human inefficiency.

>>9948266
Thanks for the source

>>9948270
Post masters isn’t a meme. It literally just means you want a research career where you do hard math. I’d imagine most people on /g/ would say it’s a meme because it’s not easy employment, but then again most people I know don’t want to do research in quantum information, machine learning over signal processing, randomized algorithms, etc

>>9948421
>Programming is becoming the arithmetic of our age
A few years ago, there was a big poster in the main building of ETH Zurich which stated (just to make this clear: CS =/= programming):
"Mathematics is the queen,... and Computer Science is the princess - with the claim to inherit" ;)

>>9948421
>When I look at say a business analyst, I can't help but think I am far more qualified to do their job than they are.
Typical CS grad thinking right here folks. No you are not more qualified to do his job. Business analysts serve a purpose, and most do their job very well.

I am a classically trained statistician that works as a "data scientist." Our data science team is a health mix of statisticians and computer scientists. We also have three data analysts (for the SQL stuff) and a business analyst (6 years experience). The data analysts perform the data preprocessing for us and the business analyst helps us communicate results to the C-suite. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, but we complement each other well.

We also take interns every Summer (paid) and the ones with a CS background (undergrads students) tend to be the most insufferable from the lot. They tend to think they know everything and can just do X and report the results, without thinking big picture (i.e. use a random forest when logistic regression will suffice). The real world (industry) is very different than what they teach you in school. How many fuckwit MBAs in the C-suite do you deal with regularly?

>monte carlo simulations, fitting regressions, doing unsupervised clustering
>monte carlo simulations
Often take to long with sufficiently large data matrices
>fitting regressions
What about statistical assumptions and remediation?
>unsupervised clustering
That's redundant, as clustering is an unsupervised method.

Be humble and learn if you want to make it in this industry. It's a small community!

Codemonkey "Science" is for peorple too stupid to get a real STEM degree

>>9948942
What do you get out of posting this? The state of undergrad education might be worrying, but do you even know what computer science is?

>>9949049
>do you even know what computer science is?
RADIX + here is linux always use sudo + failed EEng

>>9949164
Lol, you're describing a software development degree.

A computer science degree, at least for me, was mostly a lot of math and a fuckton of systems. If you want me to divulge my course list, I'll happily do so.

Also I, like every peer I had, picked up linux and basic quality of life stuff on our own time

>>9949165
How much maths do you need for a git commit and code review? lol
>If you want me to divulge my course list, I'll happily do so
pls do the needful and revert me!

>>9949165
>t. had a couple discrete math courses,some shitty calculus classes and one basic stats class

>>9949176
I'll repeat myself. A computer science degree is not a software development degree. Here's my course list

Calculus (I, II, Multivariable, ODE, PDE)
Introduction to Proofs
Two semesters of Linear Algebra (proof based)
Mechanics (2 semesters)
Electromagnetism (2 semesters)
Graph Theory
Combinatorics
First semester analysis (not required but took it anyway. Came up in algorithms)
Data Structures
Probability theory (discrete and continuous)
Stochastic processes
Differential Geometry
Design and Analysis of Algorithms (graduate)
Compilers
Machine Learning
Computer Architecture
Signal Processing
OS theory and design
Parallel Computing
Graphics
Networking and the Internet
Automata Theory and Computability
Computational Complexity Theory
Abstract Algebra (not required)

I took some more courses, but these are the top off my head and the majority of my courses

>>9949187
See >>9949187
These are most of my courses

>>9949197
Oh, and Numerical Analysis, That's where I used a lot of my ODE/PDE stuff

>>9949197
Pretty basic courses for a math/cs dual major. The fact that you americans have calculus and analysis as two different classes says a lot.

>>9949212
You would have to take it up with the math department. Analysis wasn't super bad. I had to flex my rigor muscles, but at the end of the day, the truth of the proof is easy; translating intuition to formalism was the meat of the course.

Either way, this course load isn't exactly trivial, and it got me a position in a Big 4 company doing research, so it served me well. I'm probably gonna do a PhD either in math or in theoretical CS and focus on quantum information.

>>9949219
>this course load isn't exactly trivial
Well the only "hard" CS classes I see there are:
>Electromagnetism (If EE/Physics class)
>Graphics (if that means Computer Vision)
>Signal Processing
The rest are either basic Math classes that any math major has to take, meme CS classes (like Data structures, networks, algorithms) or dumbed down EE classes (automata theory, computer architecture, etc).

>>9949234
Yes, they are in fact math classes that math majors take. I didn't assume I took as much math as a math major, but I took a good amount of it, and definitely more than an engineering student, who usually takes 5 semesters of calculus and does the rest through some quick and dirty approximations/numerical methods

Data structures was easy, but I don't think it's a meme
Networking and the Internet? I'm assuming you've never understood the hell of distributed computation and setting up something like it

You clearly haven't taken a rigorous algorithms course. It's literally about writing algorithms based off of mathematical derivations. The structure of the class is given a math problem, derive a few features and then design an algorithm. Do a proof of correctness and a proof of its runtime cases. This was compounded by the fact that I took the graduate version, which was populated by math and CS people alike.

Electromagnetism is just a physics class. Graphics was about developing actual graphics, which is a lot of vector calculus, a lot of weight laplacians, differential geometry, some topology, etc.

Automata Theory? EE? What the hell are you smoking? EE doesn't touch anything close to automata theory, as EE is heavily focused in power, embedded systems, digital logic design, RF/communications, embedded work, etc. The computer architecture class we had is for both CS and EE people.

You keep making these assumptions about the rigor of my classes. The CS classes I took weren't dumbed down. I took a control theory class from the EE department, and it was no harder than anything else I had taken.

I know you have come in with this assumption that CS is inherently less rigorous than everything else, and so your words are there to discredit my education. I've told you already that I work at a Big 4 in research. My team is alongside math grads and engineering grads. I've never lagged behind them in that regard.

>>9949234
>>9949244
Also computer vision was covered in my ML class, but it wasn't the focus. By developing graphics, I mean engines, methods, actually drawing them by solving how to decompose, mesh models, etc.

>>9949244
holy fuck how insecure are you??

>>9949258
Haha
It's not so much insecurity as it is a response to someone who very clearly has no idea what he's talking about.

It's hard not to be aghast when someone tells you that Automata Theory is a watered down EE subject; it's like saying integral calculus is watered down addition

Also, it's hard to not be defensive when you have a board where people are telling you that your education and your prowess is beneath them and some imaginary elite. Either way, you can't really say something inflammatory and ill informed, have me respond to some arguments, and then tell me that I'm the insecure one.

>>9949244
>Data structures was easy, but I don't think it's a meme
Networking and the Internet? I'm assuming you've never understood the hell of distributed computation and setting up something like it
I called them memes because they are easy
>You clearly haven't taken a rigorous algorithms course.
I started taking CS and CE uni classes when i was around 15 (I'm not american, here you can start taking uni classes -replacing normal higschool classes- before finishing highschool if you met some conditions). I graduated highschool and got the equivalent degree to an american bachelor one. I may post the classes if i have time to translate them. After that i dual majored EE-CE and Math. (6 years degrees).
>Automata Theory? EE?
CE class.
>You keep making these assumptions about the rigor of my classes.
American courses are easier (at undergrad level), even in top universities.

>>9949305
not to be nitpicky, but in many schools, EE and CE are part of the same department and are filled with EE/CE+ CS double majors.

>>9949305
>Distributed comp/networking easy
okay buddy. Aside from the boiler plate C code for some TCP protocols, most of it was difficult because of the real time behavior and constraints. Less hard, more just complicated

>graduated highschool and got the equivalent of an American bachelor
okay buddy

>CE class
...no, even in CE departments, Automata Theory is a theoretical CS class.

>even in top universities
okay buddy

I'm having a really hard time believing this, mainly since it sounds like a larp, and secondly because I have a British, a German, and a Hungarian friend, and they haven't really reported anything like what you're saying to me. Analysis with calculus? Yes. Equivalent of an American bachelors through high school? Not really

>>9947800
>Is CS a meme degree?
Yep, the only reason to study CS is if you can't handle CpE or EE. Literally everything you can do with a CS degree do can be done by any CpE or EE major.

>>9949325
>no, even in CE departments, Automata Theory is a theoretical CS class.
I don't know what you are trying to say. EE-CE-CS-SE-SysE are all the same department and share classes (with previous classes requeriments, since i got the 3 years CS degree i could take most CS classes anyway)
> Analysis with calculus? Yes. Equivalent of an American bachelors through high school? Not really
It is recognized as "Bachelor of Science in Computer Science and Engineering"

>>9949362
/Thread.

>>9949197
>being the meme
Every CS course in that list is a joke. The only ones that are less of a joke are Math or EE courses which are rare in a CS degree (lmao at CS majors knowing anything about Signal Processing)

>>9948171
>implying that all people employed in CS are working on software the supports the world and is building the future.

Reality: a relative few in CS, ultra smart people, have an outsized impact on software of substantial importance.

Many, if not most, employed in CS do work that has very little importance to society and often gigantic negative externailities. (note: also true for non CS).

example: facebook it is of very little importance as far as "the world being built", yet much of silicon valley startups are stuff like this and draw in tens of thousands of CS workers who do nothing of any real importance.

That is, i agree that CS is essential for the modern world and "key to the future", but the chances are you (generally), and no one you know will be working on any software of any importance. I mean, here we are on a gigantic "social site" that uses relatively ancient coding and design-yet marketers convince people they need some new app and almost all of them are trash and/or rebrands that solve no problem.

That is, most CS job growth has been simple marketing rather than CS growing because it was solving problems that people demanded solutions for.

Think of the really amazing software and relatively how few people are involved in, or better yet open source.

Then think of all the people who are involved with software that is largely bullshit that has to be constantly advertised and marketed because no person would go looking for it, because...ya know they dont need it because it doesnt solve a problem. Ask yourself why you almost never see an add for Havok, Excel, Autodesk, or R, but constantly for see ads for all sorts of dumb apps that monitor your weight, help you upload pictures to your website using your fridge instead of a mouse and so on...like really pointless stuff.

>>9948421
>More over, I see CS people as a generalized replacement for your average business employee
NO! you people suck (and i mean that in a friendly way anon)

I worked in large biz/fin companies with big pile of money. They were always paying consultants (CS), buying new software, and so on and so on. I'd hear about the next rollout, the "new data scienctist", new "data visualization tool and accompanying models", the econometric CS guy and so.

Bottom line, these people were intelligent, worked hard, and did create novel stuff that did what they said but in reality it was useless. It was basically a bunch of intelligent guys dicking around. Or like, a corporate welfare payment to high IQ individuals (which im all for).

What im getting at, i really havent seen much value from MOST of the software and CS people in buis., especially from a societal point of view.

Honestly, to this day, microsoft office is by far the single biggest important thing to every general buisness (operations) i have ever been in. 99.5% of all great solutions ive ever seen arose from the use of office, maturity, and experience.

Over 90% of the great inventions that generate profits and societal improvement came from acquisitions of companies filled with really smart scientists and engineers (physicists, chemist, mech, ee).

So, yeah, as far as business admin goes, i think the problem is too much software and not using the stuff people already have. It's a case of too many cooks in the kitchen.

>>9949305
>Automata Theory? EE?
>CE class.
What? Automata Theory (Automata and Complexity) is given by the math departmen in most universities.

>>9949438
Give me the easiest math problem there's no fucking way the average CS major could solve.

>>9949268
>aghast

My fucking sides

>>9947800
Software engineer here. I think it's a meme degree and you should major in maths while on the side self-studying programming.

>>9949586
>the average CS major
lmao you are kidding, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ1ZEjjP_4k&t=7m43s this is the average CS major, notice the total absence of any math in both the video and the comments, it's just code monkey shit, the average CS major thinks Calculus 1 is impressive rofl

>>9948421
>Programming is becoming the arithmetic of our age; a basic skill.
>Engineering degrees are trending towards CS degrees with a particular specialization in some application.
This. Everybody in STEM learns programming. I know engineers that couldn't find jobs in their fields and got CS jobs instead.

>>9949763
Knowing the basics of Python syntax and calling yourself a programmer is the same as knowing basic Newtonian physics and calling yourself a physicist tbqh.

>>9948234
This.
>>9947800
I got a CS degree and I passed through college without learning anything new. Everything was either outdated, or I already knew it. A degree only helps you get a job ahead of a dude with the same experience and knowledge as you, but without a degree.

Just because you get a CS degree, doesn't mean you suddenly become a hax0r, able to write complex applications, like say for example, an office suite. AI is a different can of worms.

>>9947800

I'm not even a CS major, and understand the joke, but still don't find that funny.

Jesus, CS cucks step up your game.

>>9947800
>>9949797

see
>>9949789

See this is actually clever.

>>9949761
>I-I-I'm to afraid t-to take the cha-allenge, b-but I'm superio-or. R-right?

>>9949763
Just because something involves programming doesn't mean it's CS job. CS is not about programming.
It's like saying that working at shop is math job because you deal with numbers.

>>9949761
Women is not an average major of any STEM.

>>9950264
>CS is not about programming.
Top kek. CS is software engineering with a couple really basic discrete math classes.

>>9949767
With some python and stats you can easily get into the ML / IA meme.

>>9947800

1202 Alarm!

Just study math. I literally can absorb every CS concept effortlessly.

>>9950372
OP here, you can absorb my cock in your mouth effortlessly.

>>9950407
t.butthurt CS brainlet and certified faggot

>>9950407

The fuck, this is real OP speaking

Part two of post: is Software Engineering (aka: code monkeying) an enjoyable profession? Is it just slave labor? Does it get boring after a while? Is it just copy and pasting other people's code like a retard?

>>9947800
Just go in to statistics if you want to get a job

CS is most useful and one of the easiest STEM degree.
>get CS degree
>get few years of experience
>get well paid, comfy job almost anywhere in the world
>laugh at unemployed math spergs living in mom's basement solving useless abstract problems that no one cares about except other math spergs

>>9950330
Give me the easiest math problem there's no fucking way the average CS major could solve.

>>9947800
yes, but better start with the IQ degree

>>9948931
>Often take to long with sufficiently large data matrices
yes, and what is your point?
>What about statistical assumptions and remediation?
deal with them on a case by case basis, again you are just trying to sound smart
>That's redundant, as clustering is an unsupervised method.
supervised clustering is absolutely a thing. you don't even know you own field.

Looking forward to your response. I will enjoy teaching you.

>>9949539
>What im getting at, i really havent seen much value from MOST of the software and CS people in buis., especially from a societal point of view.

this has to be sarcastic...

>>9947800
>THIS IS A PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT
OP Pic is why you use a tail recursion instead of a normal recursion.
>THIS IS A PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT
>Return to your regularly scheduled shitposting.

>>9949362
>CpE or EE doing programming language theory or even knowing the prerequisites (Category Theory, Type Theory, Non-Classical Logic).
Don't make me laff

>>9947800
A CS degree program should actually be broken up into a bunch of separate degrees. Instead all of the courses are just added in as big grab bag requirements (eg. "at least k courses at 400 level or above") and the only actual requirements are basic theoretical fundamentals. As a result instead of having
>students who have taken a coherent series of courses in a highly specialized field
you have
>students who have taken a lot of introductory courses in a bunch of different areas of comp sci
and even when you do get students who specialize and take hard courses instead of easy As you get
>an assortment of students with the same degree but entirely different backgrounds

You can have comp sci students that specialized in any of the following:
>Database theory
>Theoretical comp sci (broad in itself, can include but is not limited to programming language theory, computability theory, complexity theory)
>Compiler and parsing shit
>Computer graphics (the implementation details, not graphics design shit)
>Information security
>Computer architecture and embedded programming
>etc..

You can also get retards like this: >>9949789
>I got a CS degree and I passed through college without learning anything new. Everything was either outdated, or I already knew it.

In short, a CS degree is what you make it. Some students choose to make theirs shit and some don't. Regardless it's still hard for employers to know what to make of a CS student without asking them about their background or seeing their personal projects/employment history.

>>9947857
>I know nothing about software or programming

>>9947822
Which one is CS?

>>9947800
Aren't Stack Overflows the error when there's a command to divide by zero? So I don't get the joke.

>>9953585
Stackoverflow is where a call or operation that causes a data segment to call or use more data than it is allocated on stack. It's just an abort operation since the promise to use memory off an OS request wasn't kept, the OS doesn't respect the program (or more accurately doesn't want bad behavior) and terminates as per policy

>>9953609
Nice - thanks!

>>9947800
No.
Yes.
Depending on what you mean by "program itself", we are already there. The way you probably mean it, it will take a while, but unless human kind manages to clear itself from the face of Earth within a decade or two, it will be done.

>>9950445
Probably depends on the company you work for.
I really hate the obsession of some CS people trying to force "engineer" into their job title, though.

>>9954478
>A CS student calling themselves an engineer

From insufferable to literal autism levels

>>9954483
I wouldn't blame the students.
It's the professors that instil them with that.

>Is CS a meme degree?
It is "mathematics lite".
>Is CS a legitimate discipline of study?
Yes, as a mathematics subfield.
>Will we develop AI that can program itself?
It has the same possibility as finding a theory everything.

>>9947800
>Is CS a meme degree?
Yes, CS is only good for code monkey jobs, you don't need a degree for that.

>>9954541
>it’s mathematics lite
Depends on the school and whether you double major (“proper CS”)

>>9954572
People with CS degrees get code jobs because that’s where the money is at, but it’s hardly representative of CS as a field. Either way, the high paying cryptography, HPC, etc. jobs are barred off by a university degree. In those cases they don’t care if “you can learn it and be capable of doing it” as much as they do having it on your resume as a degree so the automatic filter doesn’t cut you

>>9954483
>>9954527
I agree. They're engineering students.

>>9954614
A Compuer Engineering degree is far superior to get those jobs

>>9954705
Not exactly. CE people tend to focus on hardware development and driver support. They can do CS jobs, but quite frankly every CE person I’ve met doesn’t have the chops to prove themselves out of a box. I see them take the compiler class, but I don’t see them devising new compiler tricks, doing OS policy, etc.

Your average CS major is a dork, but the ones at non meme schools who got non meme education with a lot of math and a fair bit of science do very well in their field. Engineering students, especially in the US, take 5 classes of calculus and fudge the rest through their requirements. Linear Algebra isn’t even needed for ABET accreditation!

Another anon said it best: you don’t know if a CS degree is a meme or if it was a good education unless you review the courseload. It’s hard to make a blanket statement for all CS majors because the curriculum is so different between mid-high to high tier R1 schools in CS and everything else. If your professors go off the MIT/Stanford model, you’re good and you’ve learned a lot.

>>9954705
Hey! It's another one of those retards who move all non-trivial CS topics to CE so they can pretend CS is trivial and CE is god-tier!

>>9954970
what's a good CS curriculum then? I hope you don't mean this >>9949197 cause I can assure you that even good CS schools lack most of these, don't pretend courses like Signal Processing are a given at a "decent" CS school.

On the other hand even bad CE schools (the ones that are 75% CS, 25% EE) tend to have at least a few courses about DSP, Embedded Systems, Digital Systems, Microprocessors and just more Math and Physics in general (as opposed to CS where Physics courses are rare) and if you want to learn about "advanced" CS topics you can always take the electives you need like Theory of Computation or Advanced Algorithm Analysis.

And this is just comparing bad CE vs top tier CS, let alone the average CS schools where the most math intensive course is Calc II

>>9955058
I took the majority of those courses. I double majored, but I got a myriad of those courses at the CS department. Signal Processing was in fact given at my department, since there was a follow up on with a course on ML over signal processing.

In CS, we were required to take mechanics and E&M + labs. Theory of computation and Advanced Algorithms had a lot of requirements. Our numerical analysis courses had a lot of calculus requirements, not to mention graphics, which was almost all differential geometry, algorithm analysis, vector calculus, and some topology.

Engineering students generally take 5 semesters of calculus, maybe a linalg course if they're not just learning the basics from matlab and their engineering courses, and maybe some control theory. CS students in bad schools don't take a lot of math, but the ones in good schools HAVE to take math because they're not in courses like "website design" or whatever bullshit you think CS is. I go to an R1 research school, and I haven't seen or heard of any of these stereotypical code monkey classes either here or in any other similar CS departments.

I took DSP through requesting the professor; it's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be. Switching theory is pretty useful to know, but it isn't incomprehensible or anything. Embedded Systems in my school, alongside Parallel Computation, is cross listed in the CE and CS departments.

>>9955058
>>9955079
Furthermore, this doesn't really refute my point about CE being more of a hardware thing. CS deals with solving hard problems in a scalable fashion. CE is more about developing the hardware and some of the low level code that runs on that hardware. The intersection is the design of systems such as OS or distributed computation, but other than that, they're two adjacent fields made to solve two different classes of problems. This becomes increasingly clear if you study theoretical CS, which is where my concentration is (well, theoretical CS and graphics, and a math double major)

>>9950529
Prove sqrt(2) is irrational.

>>9955058
>>9955079

I do CS at UIUC (ranked #5 or something) and the CS curriculum here doesn't even require algorithms. People can basically pick and choose to do whatever the fuck they want.

Now obviously some people still choose to take hard classes, but a good chunk of people just do things like UI Design or Web Programming or Applied XYZ.

Probably the only core CS curriculum that I respect is CMU's. I think they make it a point to teach CS in a unique way, rather than like at Javaschools like here.

>>9955109
I'm not UIUC, which is something like 12th, but I am in a similar place. Here we have fairly strict requirements but after you've taken 4-5 semesters of calculus, intro to proofs (from the math department), and linear algebra, you're free to take anything else. We don't have web programming or UI here. Most of our stuff is focused heavily on computational theory, graphics, and ML theory.
I understand where your frustration comes from, but I can't relate in some ways because my CS curriculum wasn't like that in the slightest.

I do agree that undergrad CS is mostly a joke if you don't go to the right school or take the right classes, but hell, look at UIUC's graduate theory department of CS, and you can see that they don't fuck around. I like Jeff Erickson's work myself

>>9955058
>>9955104
> I double majored
So you agree that CS by itself is worthless?

Either way I brought up CE because your idea of a "good" CS curriculum seems to be your typical CE degree, almost every course you mention here >>9955079 are just typical undergrad CE topics. If you requested your teacher to take DSP, why did you even bother with CS in the first place?

The only courses that you don't see often in CE in that post are Advanced Algorithms and Theory of Computation which can easily be taken as electives, can't say the same about EE courses for CS.

>>9955105
Dude, that's fucking easy. All you have to do is compare prime factorizations on either side if 2 = a^2 / b^2
2b^2 = a^2
is a contradiction because only either a or b is even, given that a/b is a reduced fraction. that means in both cases you'll have an odd number of 2's on one side's factorization and an even number on the other side.

This is a basic bitch proof that everyone learns.

>>9955132
No, I could have easily done CS by itself and get a good amount of the courses I did. Double majoring felt natural since I wanted to do more analysis, abstract algebra, and have an excuse to get into the upper level mathematical physics class. I chose to make a good curriculum out of my CS education

>>9955116
>I'm not UIUC, which is something like 12th

What ranking puts UIUC at 12th?

>>9955139
csrankings puts the UIUC program somwhere between 7th and 13th based on the topic

Keep in mind that rankings have a lot to do with the graduate education from a school. Undergrad ain't shit but a primer.

>>9953585
>Stack Overflows the error when there's a command to divide by zero
I’m curious why you even thought this to begin with

>>9955150
Ah I see. I was confused because as a composite CSrankings puts it at #5. I thought you were going off some BS rankings like THE.

>>9948931
>>I am a classically trained statistician that works as a "data scientist.
what is your degree in statistics? BS? MS? PHD?

>>9955186
BS Math, MS Stats, and 4 years in industry. AMA

>>9947800
What are some non-meme schools for CS undergrad?

>>9955269
Just be a man and do EE

>>9955272
Why not CE?

>>9955269
there are none, the only non-memes "CS" schools are usually EECS or CSE.

CE major here. How true is the saying that CEs are just shitty computer scientist/Electrical Engineers in one ? I picked it because I liked aspects of both degrees and thought it was a good middle ground.

Am I better off just switching to EE and learning coding on the side ?

>>9955312
>Am I better off just switching to EE and learning coding on the side ?

Yes.

>>9955269
As far as core requirements go, I would have to give it to CMU. It has to do with how their requirements are logically and nicely organized.

For example introducing freshmen to both functional and imperative notions of computation (which is kind of unconventional) and their equivalence. Then their data structures and algorithms course places emphasis on parallelism vs sequentalism (yet another unconventional emphasis). There are a lot of other interesting ways they go about things. It's clear that they think beyond your typical Javaschool.

Of course you can de-memeify your curriculum wherever you go but it would have to be your own personal decision to do so.

>>9955277
Because generally speaking, CE offers less choice compared to either just EE or CS.

This is going to sound paradoxical to most people since they think CEs can do things both EEs and CS people can do, but this argument falls apart since there is literally no career in the world that asks you to simultaneously design analog ICs while building compilers. Generally CE will have more mandatory course requirements than either EE or CS, and that will just end up getting in the way if your interests change.

But generally speaking, it's much more rewarding to get serious about a single field and pursue it to excellence, than have an amateur understanding of many disparate and irrelevant disciplines. It's just a side effect of being in a knowledge economy where having specialized skills is held to a premium.

>>9955312
>How true is the saying that CEs are just shitty computer scientist/Electrical Engineers in one?
Pretty true. Most CEs I know usually lean to one side by the time they graduate and just wish they had pursued their preferred side since the beginning. It's easy to be ambivalent when you're an inexperienced freshman with a lot of time, and harder when you're hard pressed to make a decision on the next step of your career.

>>9955304
What practical effect does that have?

>>9955330
I agree with this. The advice I was given is that "You can like both fields, but you're better off picking a starting point in either CS or EE, and then learning how to integrate one with the other later in your career." A lot of the implementation work, especially around the OS/distributed computation side will lead into one another. I have a CS friend who ended up using a lot of control theory when he had to make some distributed problem over multiple embedded systems with a few being controllers.

>>9955312
It depends:

Do you want to solve problems related to hardware, to the development of devices, controllers, communication/RF, some parallelism, etc.? That's mostly EE. It's a classic field that has had a lot of important contributions to the world, and we wouldn't be anywhere without electronics and signal processing. I will say that EE people often think they write complicated code in class, especially in their computer architecture class, but it ends up being some pipelining lab that takes like an hour max, so you might be shooting yourself in the foot.

Do you want to learn about computation as a fundamental mathematical study? Do you want to learn how to derive language and meaning out of symbols, how to solve hard math problems by a maximally efficient manner, how to reason over the mechanistic nature of science and math? That's what CS *actually* is, but as it's taught in most schools, it's mostly just the math around solving problems with computers. I agree with >>9955330 in that you can de-memeify most CS education (mostly by taking graduate classes and going out of your way to read harder books), but it's a mixed bag. The essence of the field lies somewhere inbetween engineering and math, and you can stray as close to either side as you please. CS isn't really about programming; it comes down to math, but I like theoretical CS, so your mileage may vary.

>>9947800
>yes
>yes
>you can technically do that really shittily right now by generating random code until it gets a decent result and then saving it for later

>>9947800
>Is CS a meme degree?
Yes
>Is CS a legitimate discipline of study?
Yes
It should be only a grad program.

>>9955201
No need, I see you're a brainlet.

>>9949197
>No real time systems
Brainlet

>>9955449
>>9955458
brainlet

speaking of meme degrees, is cybersecurity a meme degree?

>>9951605
Brainlet, most c compilers can optimize certain recursion types to tail recursion and then into iterative method. There's no need for the extra work

>>9955470
cryptosystems, a subfield of cybersecurity, is definitely not a meme. It's a pretty interesting field of work where you have some tough math problems and some tough systems problems. Definitely lands you a pretty well paying job

>>9955474
good schools for compsec ?

We need to stop having these threads.
An earlier anon said that if you're in a meme CS degree, you can de-memeify it. Otherwise, you're good.
I think /sci/ needs to make a distinction between CS as a field and the average normie who wants to do CS so that they can make big money as a "hacker" or whatever media at large thinks CS means

>>9955485
Any CS grad school.

>>9947800
>Is CS a meme degree?
Yes, 99% of them don't teach CS at all.
>Is CS a legitimate discipline of study?
Yes, it's only really taught in grad school though.

>>9955465
>mad that the curriculum that he's so proud of doesn't have a course on the most rigorous topic in CS
lmao

>>9955582
I'm the guy who wrote that curriculum out
the guy who called you a brainlet is different
either way, I studied real time systems more in graduate school.

>>9947800
Most software is worthless crap but people pay a lot to have it made.

I don’t know why and I don’t really care anymore.

>>9947800
>>9955139
>>9955161
UIUC is ranked #13 going by non-meme fields of CS in CSrankings.
UIUC is definitely overhyped for """"CS""""
Turn off buzzword "AI"
Turn off code-monkey "Systems"
Turn off brainlet "Interdisciplinary Areas"
"Theory" is the only non-meme in the list of categories.

>>9949539
based. Are you >>9948931?

>>9949751
he is LITERALLY the guy in >>9949438's pic

>>9955718
You forgot to turn off brainlet cryptography and verification.

That makes UIUC #4.

>>9947800
>a meme degree
Lrn2meme fgt pls

>>9955757
>implying verification and proofs are a meme
Brainlet code monkey detected
You're the coder analog of the shit slinger in the infinite monkey theorem.
Let's keep flinging shit at a compiler and hope it works.
>implying Cryptography is a meme
Number theory is older than CS you brainlet.

>>9955132
>So you agree that CS by itself is worthless?
Not him, but while it's clearly not, I'd definitely recommend every CS student to think about where he is going to apply what he has learned.

CS people are in demand practically everywhere, so the choice is all yours.
It's fucking ridiculous what you see walking around, that is not done using computers, despite it potentially being a major improvement on the status quo.
Note: I'm not an advocate of that "smart city" bullshit.

>>9948931
how do you hire your undergrads?

>>9955903
Data science is 50% diversity hires, 50% onions hires.

>>9956167
crossboarding cancerposter detected

>>9956191
>Fallacy by Personal Attack
Hello, data scientist.

>>9956206
Only containment board cancer say onions.

Is the CS/Math double major brainlet poster STILL trying to shill? This is getting really sad

>>9955330
>Most CEs I know usually lean to one side by the time they graduate and just wish they had pursued their preferred side since the beginning.
What kind of jobs a CS major can do that a CE can't?

>>9948421
>I could be running monte carlo simulations, fitting regressions, doing unsupervised clustering etc.

when baby thinks any of this stuff is remotely difficult

>>9949539
this x1000000

CS memers way overvalue themselves and their abilities.

>>9950559
i spent far too much time laughing at this

>>9956776
algorithm certification

Is Pure Math + CS guaranteed unemployment?

>>9949234
> EE classes
> automata theory
You have no idea what you're talking about lol

>>9957254
With internships, yeah

>>9949234
>if that means Computer Vision
Nah, usually "Graphics" means learning how to create computer graphics and what the technology behind that whole process is like.
Potentially also how to "abuse" GPUs for other shit, but usually that's not part of that course.
Also,
>Computer Vision
>hard
Unlike Machine Learning it is a fun class that I can recommend anyone with a remotely working brain.
Machine Learning isn't hard either, but it isn't fun.

>>9955903
The last one we hired was two years ago as a data analyst. The technical interviews focus on SQL, and we expect a lot from them. This hire had interned with us for two summers so we were very lienent as we knew this person was technically capable and would be a great fit.

>>9956167
No it is not. Sure there are some bugmen, but most (assuming you are talking about real data scientists with advanced quantitative degrees and not failed failed English majors with a bootcamp under their belt) are well adjusted and socially approachable. As for diversity hires? LoL not at all. The C-suite wants results and our high salaries cannot justify hiring LaQuashawndita because she is a minority and female. When big money is involved, the C-suite will tell HR to fuck off.

>>9948270
imagine if you could solve your math problem anyway you wanted