/sci/ - Science & Math

Anti-vaxxers should unironically just be shot. They're all braindead anyways.

>>9934087

Read your own post retard. You invalidate your own position.

>>9934087
BASED. I think all vaccines shoud be given at the same time to avoid aluminium exposition and eliminate mrcury """preservants""" and also the gonadotropins jews i mean based medics put in them to provoque abortions

>>9934284
Also meme sickneses such as varicella should NOT have a vaccine. Fun fact: vaccines are olny worth it in an epidemy, once it disapeared they are retarded

vaccines actually cause autism and cancer

Please do your /x/ posting on /x/.

>Pro-vaxxers refuse to even have a debate on vaccines
we had the debate many many times and it always goes the same way. we dont want to have it again because you bring nothing new to the table

>we injected a bunch of people with a vaccine and then injected another group of people with a vaccine and they had the same rates of health issues, therefore vaccines are safe
That is how every vaccine safety study is done, do you see the problem?

explain this

>>9934543
https://www.henrymakow.com/hidden_history_of_vaccines.html
Polio is gone because we changed the definition and diagnosis criteria of it ON THE SAME DAY AS VACCINE USE, I'm sure that had no effect on the data. Coincidentally at the exact same time, polio-like illnesses sky rocketed, it's almost like we were over misdiagnosing with other illnesses.
http://web.archive.org/web/20130522091608/http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/updates/archive/polio_and_cancer_factsheet.htm
SV40 was discovered in the polio vaccine in 1960 and it took them until 1963 to remove it, tens of millions of people are at risk for cancer now because of the polio vaccine.

>>9934087

>>9934290
>What is herd immunity

>>9934595
What is natural immunity and why is it better than the fake one

>>9934087
Based and redpilled
Personally I’m not an anti vaccer, but almost every single 1st world country has practiced eugenics or done biological experiments on their own unwilling and or unwitting population. I am genuinely upset when discussion of ideas is not allowed just because, “It’s crazy.”

>>9934431
>Your not allowed to think that!
Thank you for shutting down discussion and debate :)

Reddditpleb

>>9934087
The antivax problem is as big as it is because of sociopaths like you who think it's somehow funny to bait people like this. Most people are dumb and easily baited and you know that, hence the problem. I hope you die a horrible horrible death of some disease that ironically could have been prevented if not for anti-vaxxers

>>9934087
All medication is known to hide side effects.

Why would vaccines be any different?

Why does everyone seem to have a nearly religious point of view for or against, instead of considering them like any other medical procedure?

>>9934752
>what are vaccine strain outbreaks and why do all outbreaks occur in fully vaccinated groups
>what is natural immunity and why is infinitely superior to induced herd immunity
>often scar and disable" got a source on that?
>>9934752
It's not about being for or against its that they are forcing a product and you do not have the ability to sue them, it's my body I will choose, if you want to vaccinate go ahead but dont force me to because your product is failed and cannot protect you. They dont have any incentives to make a safe vaccine.

http://vaxtruth.org/2012/03/the-polio-vaccine-part-1-2/
Polio is not as dangerous as you think.

>>9934697
...after a shit ton of people die first

>>9934778
Most people are not actually full "anti-vax" many of them are just selective, use a delayed schedule, or simply want more safety studies to be done before they vaccinate. The biggest issue in this whole thing is that you can't consider them like other medical procedures or products because they are heavily enforced or mandated in some places, and you cannot sue them if you are injured. I want the ability to choose, if you want to vaccinate go ahead, I wont stop you but don't force me to vaccinate because your medicine is shit and doesn't actually work, my body my choice.
>>9934821
Nobody has to die from natural immunity, people die from poor living conditions.

>>9934826
>Nobody has to die from natural immunity,

imagine being this stupid

>>9934840
Imagine injecting yourself with heavy metals that have never been properly tested

>>9934842
Imagine thinking they don't test the shit out of vaccines before they hit the market

Vaccines do get tested against unvaccinated populations in countries where you have opt-in yearly flu vaccines. As it turns out, the vaccinated people don't get the flu.

>>9934556
>pro-vaxxers have NOTHING to respond to that
how does it feel to be wrong, pathetic incels?

>>9934777
Based and checked

>>9935268
Link to the study then faggot, back up your claims.
>>9935265
https://youtu.be/ajyc1gFU_mw
Last tested in 1929, nice.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908388/
Only Thimerosol and mmr have ever been tested for a relation to autism, not the other several dangerous ingredients, nor have they EVER done a cumulative study of the entire vaccine schedule or just multiple vaccines, they look at them in singles.
>No studies have compared the incidence of autism in vaccinated, unvaccinated, or alternatively vaccinated children (i.e., schedules that spread out vaccines, avoid combination vaccines, or include only select vaccines). These studies would be difficult to perform because of the likely differences among these 3 groups in health care seeking behavior and the ethics of experimentally studying children who have not received vaccines.
Literally the biggest shit excuse ever.
Also studies they used in this had Poul Thornsen involved, who is a wanted criminal and they never verified his data.

It's mostly because germ theory is absurd. The amount of potentially pathogenic particles one comes into contact with during a single day is beyond comprehension. Think of sewage alone, free to constantly aerosolise through hundreds of openings in all cities. If germ theory were true, crude Mathematics dictates that all people should suffer from simultaneous illnesses for most if not all of their lives. Instead, most people are rather healthy for most of their lives, irrespective of medicine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Virchow

>>9934087

These companies that make vaccines are the same ones fucking around with food genetics and making pesticides.

With there being so much coelicac disease, Crohns, and IBS now, I am convinced not to trust their vaccines.

>>9934087

>>9935681
Thats good, they seem to be attacking anything that is considered "natural" because they know how effective it is. The basis of our health is not pumping us full of chemicals and drugs but eating and living a healthy lifestyle.

>>9934556
>Some evidence suggests that receipt of SV40-contaminated polio vaccine may increase risk of cancer. However, the majority of studies done in the U.S. and Europe which compare persons who received SV40-contaminated polio vaccine with those who did not have shown no causal relationship between receipt of SV40-contaminated polio vaccine and cancer.
From your own link.

>>9935672
Lmfao citing Wikipedia noice anon. You can thank medicine that most people are healthy for most of their lives now. There's a reason the life expectancy was around 30-40 a few centuries ago.

>>9934087
Show me these anti-vaxxers willing to risk an injection of heavy metals and I'll gladly perform that experiment

>>9936732
I can't give you any direct sources but I'll tell you that if the CDC offers to do a 100% vaccinated vs unvaccinated study you will have countless anti-vaxxers signing up, it's the study thats been asked since the beginning, there are some large groups that have expressed interest in taking part of those studies becuase its the one study they know the CDC cant hide the data.
You shouldn't be asking whether the anti-vaxxers are willing to do the experiment, you should first ask the CDC who says they wont.

>>9934129
fpbp

>>9936753
Yeah the CDC isnt going to do that because of medical ethics and something called human rights violations. That's why it's up to private individuals like you and me to gather subjects

>>9936760
What a convenient excuse, vaccines are so great that they cant even do a proper safety study because it would be unfair to those who dont get the wonderful magic medicine, it also does not violate human rights, they just dont want to be responsible or so they say, its completely legal to do as each individual has the choice to vaccinate already in most places.

>>9936764
Who said the act of injecting somebody is the major human rights concern? I'm thinking more about the fact that we'd have to remove approximately 40 or so (20 control 20 experimental) children of similar ages from their families and then house them together in a secure government facility for maybe 5-10 years in order to control for environmental factors.

>>9936780
What kind of study are you talking about? The study that is being asked for is group A gets the vaccine, group B gets no vaccine, compare results of health issues and death rates.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3505292/
This is the gold standard, double blind placebo test, every other drug goes through it, they dont have to remove children from families.

>>9936814
>This is the gold standard, double blind placebo test, every other drug goes through it, they dont have to remove children from families.
>doesn't want to control for environmental factors when death rates and disease rates are gonna heavily depend on the environment of the subject
>instead proposes an experiment that is essentially already in place
Also, why the fuck are you looking at an article from an INDIAN journal for the gold standard in study?

>>9936764
Read up on bioethics before making stupid claims lmao
If you want to know why we don't do any of those type of experiments look up the Tuskugee Experiment. It's been done before and for these reasons is why we won't ever do it again.

Why are you obsessed with this extreme scientific study where the children have to live in bubbles. I just want the gold standard study, a double blind placebo study. I am not purposes an experiment that is already in place, we dont test vaccinated groups against unvaccinated, we test vaccinated vs vaccinated.
Holy shit, do you not actually know about the rct gold standard? Why are you even talking if you don't know the most basic of basic science.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomized_controlled_trial
>The RCT is often considered the gold standard for a clinical trial.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/280574.php
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889858805703099
>Nevertheless, the RCT remains the “gold standard.
https://academic.oup.com/ejo/article/37/5/457/2599978
>the best way for seeking the truth are RCTs. They are considered as the gold standard because they deliver the highest level of evidence, due to their potential to limit all sorts of bias.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms1604593
>clinical epidemiologists, meanwhile, promoted RCTs as the best means to make medicine more rational.11,12 By the early 1980s, they had labeled RCTs the gold standard of medical knowledge.
http://i-base.info/ttfa/8-clinical-trials-and-research/8-7-randomised-double-blind-placebo-controlled-trials/
The most reliable evidence – often referred to as the ‘gold standard’ – comes from ‘prospective randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled study.
>>9936843
You're the retarded one, the Tuskegee experiment was only illegal because they were REFUSED treatment, everyone in the study is allowed a vaccine and they are signing up for the study and are told they may or may not receive one and may drop from it at any time and receive any and all treatments desired.

>>9936845
>I just want the gold standard study, a double blind placebo study.
But that doesn't test the things you want to test. That's only useful for comparing the disease incidence rates in each population when they are both exposed to the disease the vaccine was designed to combat.
This already happens in real life and there's epidemiological data freely available for the cdc, see slide 11 here for the 2016 data: https://www.cdc.gov/measles/downloads/measlesdataandstatsslideset.pdf
Such a study would not show rates for other conditions which are the primary concern of the anti-vax movement.
>Why are you even talking if you don't know the most basic of basic science.
If you know science, then what's your degree in? What labs have you worked in? Or do you consider yourself a self-taught "scientist"

>>9936845
https://vaxopedia.org/2017/07/10/where-are-the-double-blind-placebo-controlled-randomized-trials-about-vaccines/
Here's your answer now STFU

>>9936856
Also, even in your dumbass idea we'd still have to isolate the subjects due to the risk of an outbreak. It also wouldn't be some longterm study like you mention in the OP

>>9934087
>willing to sign themselves and their children up, as well as many unvaccinated groups such as homeschooled, the amish, other religious groups
This is exactly how you don't do a scientific study. You definitely don't pick people who already have sky-high rates of autism when testing for if something can cause autism.

I'd love to know how you think an injection will remove someone's social skills.

>>9936856
No, it tests whether people are getting cancer or having seizures, you watch both groups and see who dies from adverse reactions.
>>9936861
Holy shit, none of that is a real study, they dont use saline, you are just comparing a vaccine to ANOTHER vaccine. Fuck off retard, give me the study I asked for.

>>9936870
>No, it tests whether people are getting cancer or having seizures, you watch both groups and see who dies from adverse reactions.
how do you determine causation of these events? a lot of studies suggest that environmental factors influence cancer

>>9936870
>Holy shit, none of that is a real study, they dont use saline, you are just comparing a vaccine to ANOTHER vaccine. Fuck off retard, give me the study I asked for.
You didn't even read it. 'cmon senpai. It literally mentions the use of saline.

>>9934129

/thread

>>9936856
The CDC considers "unvaccinated" as anyone who has not had all boosters, so basically anyone over the age of 40 is technically unvaccinated by today's standards because we dont give them boosters, they are a huge threat by your own standards because vaccines wear off after years.
>>9936873
It mentions saline use in the gardisil vaccine but I've already looked at that, I don't need to read your garbage, the insert study combines the AAHS and the saline groups because they are both a "Placebo" so the chronic illness rates of both are totaled rather than compared, it's not a true placebo. They used only 300 people in the saline group then used like 10k in the vaccine and 8k in the AAHS.

>>9936868
Are you retarded, comparing the incidences of unvaxxed vs. vaxxed would be better if they come from similar backgrounds/environments

>>9936878
>because we dont give them boosters
wtf are you talking about, boosters are a recommended procedure. Besides that, the data is still useful for determining the effectiveness of the vaccine. If you're testing an antibiotic to find it's effectiveness, you don't look at the data 20 years out from the last dosage

>>9936878
>The CDC considers "unvaccinated" as anyone who has not had all boosters,
Also not true for measles: https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html
>CDC considers people who received two doses of measles vaccine as children according to the U.S. vaccination schedule protected for life, and they do not ever need a booster dose.

>>9936880
Not when it's an outlier demographic more prone to autism than the general population, like hyper-religious (inability to distinguish fiction from reality is a common symptom of autism), amish, and homeschooled.

>>9936900
Tbh, that's actually fine so long as the study is within the bounds of that population. Theoretically, the background incidences of autism should be equal between the control and experimental groups.

>>9936907
Not necessarily. We don't really know how autism works from a neurological perspective, so that'd be really bad science. Propose autism was a lightswitch, and vaccines flipped it the other way 10% of the time, regardless of the original setting. A group who is 90% autistic would then seem to have their rates of autism _lowered_ by vaccines, while a normal population which is only 1% autistic would still get large amounts of autism from it.

>>9936912
Which is why you wouldn't compare or extrapolate data between normal and alternative groups.

>>9936678
>There's a reason the life expectancy was around 30-40 a few centuries ago.

Which is?

>>9936968
Everyone has been as retarded as you on the subject of germ theory and vaccines

>>9934543
In that very chart, it shows the majority of the decrease happening before the vaccine was introduced.

>>9936988

How does that affect life expectancy?

>>9935672
What do you think an immune system is?

>>9937063

The amount of foreign material in one day's food intake alone is far greater than the amount of material in your body allegedly managing your "immunity". By what kind of parsing do you suppose such a system operates?

>>9937081
Autism

>>9936895
when they look at outbreaks they only consider those who have had all current boosters to be in the "fully vaccinated" group, so if you've received only 1 or 2 doses but not 3, then you are put into the unvaccinated group.

>>9937119
Source for that statement?

>>9937108
based tbqh

>>9934087
>>>/x/

>>9937969
I'm here to discuss science not a conspiracy, perhaps you should go back to plebbit if you don't want real science on your science boards, they'll happily censor anything that might force you to face reality.

>>9934087
good less africans means less over population and humanity and the climate is saved

[Ommiting the fact that this thread is obviously a bait]

>natural immunity is the best thing to protect us from a disease
>adult organism gets immunity to diseases basically through being exposed to them
>but it creates a danger of not winning on this first 'fight', still without having immunity to this disease
>what if we could expose the immunity system to weakened germs so organism could learn how to fight them without getting the risk of loosing
>oh wait

meanwhile in reality
https://healthit.ahrq.gov/ahrq-funded-projects/electronic-support-public-health-vaccine-adverse-event-reporting-system
Preliminary data were collected from June 2006 through October 2009 on 715,000 patients. A total of 1.4 million vaccine doses (of 45 different vaccines) were given to 376,452 individuals. Of these doses, 35,570 possible reactions (2.6 percent of vaccinations) were identified.

>>9935672
How many of those germs actually get into the air and at what concentration in the body are they able to actually make a person "sick"?

>>9938472
The question is, how severe are the identified reactions?
If I have a fever for a day after the vaccination is that recorded as a reaction? Cold-like symptoms for a couple of days?
You can't just go "Oh my god, about 3% of vaccinations cause a reaction. Vaccinations are bad!" because we know that vaccines cause fairly harmless reactions from time to time. The leap is going from that straight into autism and shit.

>>9937081
>The amount of foreign material in one day's food intake alone is far greater than the amount of material in your body allegedly managing your "immunity".
What evidence do you have of this?
Also, not all bacteria and shit can survive in the stomach and digestive tract, or use it as a vector to infect the body, so you need to take that into account as well.

>>9938547
Well, we actually dont know the percentage of severe reactions, but a severe reaction would be anything from a hospital visit to death.
The VAERS automated system done by Harvard wasn't meant to showcase how serious, but rather how many adverse events are really being reported.
They stopped a project that had no issues, they ghosted them and it died, no reason was given and it was a wasted $1million. You should look at it for what it is, why are even the mild adverse reactions so high compared to what the CDC is saying. We don't have a working adverse reporting system, we dont know how many people are actually being injured.

>>9934129
Holy shit, fpbp.

>>9937081
Holy fuck you're retarded. How do you think our bodies deal with pathogens?

Are you literally doubting the presence of the immune system?

>>9938564
Yes, any symptom, including the most mild which make up a vast majority of all events, is a recorded event. I work for a pharma company.

>>9938622
Ok, so we have less than 1% of all adverse reactions being reported and only a fraction of serious adverse reactions being reported, we literally do not know how many people are actually being affected by vaccines and you think that is good?

>>9938641
The benefits certainly outweigh the unproven negatives, yes absolutely.

>>9938652
"unproven negatives" how about we actually find the negatives before you make the assumption that they are outweighed.
You are literally shooting in the dark, you just admitted to not knowing how many people are being hurt by the product but you're willing to take that risk.

>>9938657
It literally says 2.6% of patients had an adverse event. From my wealth of experience in pharma, I would confidently say probably .001% are serious. Even if that means death, that doesn't even come close to outweighing the well known benefits delivered by vaccines.

>>9938662
You are making an assumption on "blind faith" for the dangers of vaccines being low. You cannot tell me that vaccines are absolutely safe when we have no reliable injury reporting system.

>>9938664
Didn't say that. I said the benefit outweighs the risk. Get fucked :^)

>>9938676
What are the risks then if you don't mind me asking then.

>>9938664
>when we have no reliable injury reporting system.
It's called going to the institution that administered the vaccination if you have a serious reaction. Which is what happens.

>>9938767
And then they don't report it, like I said, serious adverse reactions are under reported as stated by the FDA

>>9938787
Well, what actually happens is you say you had a seizure after the vaccine, if you weren't in this time frame they don't have to report it.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2016-title42/pdf/USCODE-2016-title42-chap6A-subchapXIX-part2-subparta-sec300aa-14.pdf
So say I get my vaccines, 2 weeks later I have a seizure I come in and say it was possibly from the vaccine, the doctor then says "no thats impossible, it's just a coincidence" and nothing gets reported, so thats how the reporting system is failed and why we need an automated VAERS.

>>9936678
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2625386/
Actually, if you were born in the upper class of societies, and exclude those who died in war/childhood, the average lifespan was in the 60's for millenia.

>>9938789
>So say I get my vaccines, 2 weeks later I have a seizure I come in and say it was possibly from the vaccine
>and say it was possibly from the vaccine
And why would you think that?

>>9934129
/thread

>>9936760
>human rights violations
that's just fucking retarded

>>9938862
Because it's optional and we have an under reporting already?

>>9934129
fpbp

>another thread of fags straight out of /pol/ with complete disregard for scientific procedure, ethics, and conglomerated scientific knowledge as whole claiming they understand the world better than people who study it for a living

>>9938979
Oh, so let's just report things we know are outside the timeframe that could be caused by the vaccine as well. I'm sure that'll make things better.

>>9938620

I was asking you. How DO they deal with pathogens?

>>9934087
Every retard advocacy group in the world complains that people won't debate them. Creationists say it. Anti-vaxxers say it. Homeopaths say it. Conspiracy theorists say it. Climate change deniers say it. Neo-nazis say it. Functional people don't have unlimited energy to argue with retards every fucking day.

>>9939152
Not him, but just before you go on arguing about vaccines one would expect you have basic knowledge about how the immune system works. Literally go on fucking wikipedia and start reading, brainlet, nobody here is obliged to serve knowledge to you on a golden platter in a form people like you are capable to understand it.

>>9938549

Evidence of what? By its proponents' own words, the immune system is little more than literature. Any empirical traces would've surely made it easy to ascertain its material volume and topology so that we can compare it to the volume of foreign material entering the body on a daily basis in order to verify the likelyhood of its alleged functions.

>>9939171

Just say that you have no idea and are parroting what you've been told. It's not shameful at all. If anything, your ideology demands enthusiastic enthusiastic.

>>9939171

Just say that you have no idea and are parroting what you've been told. It's not shameful at all. If anything, your ideology demands enthusiastic prostration.

>>9939184
Fine, let me give you answer to your dumbass question, because you pissed me off. Actual virologist here.
>The amount of foreign material in one day's food intake alone is far greater than the amount of material in your body allegedly managing your "immunity". By what kind of parsing do you suppose such a system operates?
Even if your shitty assumption is true, you are lacking the basic understanding that all pathogens aren't dangerous in the same way. Most pathogens are just opportunistic pathogens, they are dangerous if the individual's immune system is compromised or not yet well developed (neonates, weak individuals, old people). Sure, there's a fuckton of such pathogens in the sewers and in shitty ill-prepared food, but these pose no threat to a healthy adult.
What most of the vaccines are against are highly infectious diseases, that have evolved to spread from host to host, mostly by direct or close contact, their survival is absolutely dependent on these hosts and have no business being in your food or being likely to be found in the sewers unless some infected person was touching your food or died rotting in the sewers. Also, most of these diseases are also host-specific, meaning you won't contract bird flu just because you ate a raw bird that died to it. Either shut the fuck up about topics you have limited understanding of or get educated.

>>9939200

What exactly is the immune system's principle that makes "most pathogens" harmless? What makes you say that the pathogens directly targeted by vaccines are host-dependent? Can you provide some data on their distribution, or lack thereof, outside the human body?

>>9939174
>Evidence of what?
Evidence of what I quoted.

>>9939220
>What exactly is the immune system's principle that makes "most pathogens" harmless?
Mucosal barriers lining the epithelium of every orifice of your body. Additional barriers include earwax, antibacterial peptides in the saliva, salt in tears, highly acidic conditions in the stomach and a a huge amount of lymphatic tissue in the intestines (probably the highest amount in the body). Also, skin being impenetrable to pathogens unless damaged.

>What makes you say that the pathogens directly targeted by vaccines are host-dependent?
If you want details about a specific pathogen, you can google it yourself. Opportunistic pathogens usually have means of providing for themselves without a host in nature and only assume a virulent phenotype after getting in contact with a host. Obligatory pathogens are dependent on hosts for survival, have evolved multiple biological mechanisms of invading, evading the immune response, surviving and reproducing inside of them and are completely specialized in doing so. These tend to be targeted by vaccines just because how dangerous they are to humans (all the millions of kind of flu, for example).

> Can you provide some data on their distribution, or lack thereof, outside the human body?
Sorry but this is too much to ask, I'm sure you can google it yourself.

>>9939220
Watch "Cells at Work".

>>9939233

Your first answer lists disparate features of the body, most of which are asystematic. Never mind the fundamental mystery of the principles of permeability, most if not all of these features are largely similar among "healthy" and "compromised" individuals, so your claim that "most pathogens" are harmless because of them is already tenuous.

And I was asking for some concrete data. How much testing of non-human samples relative to human samples have made people say that ANY pathogen is host-dependent. I would hope for at least 1:1, and you should too. Can you provide the data?

>>9939262
>have

*has

>>9939262
>Your first answer lists disparate features of the body, most of which are asystematic.
What do you mean by asystematic?

>Never mind the fundamental mystery of the principles of permeability, most if not all of these features are largely similar among "healthy" and "compromised" individuals, so your claim that "most pathogens" are harmless because of them is already tenuous.
The difference between healthy and compromised individuals is not the workings of these barriers, it's the fact that the compromised has received what we call an "infectious dose".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_dose
I never said that pathogens are harmless because of these barriers, obviously, it's all thanks to the immune system. The immune system only has to react against the pathogens, that pass these barriers. I mentioned the barriers to explain how is it possible that the immune system, which is itself is small in comparison to the amount of pathogens we get in contact with, maintains health. The thing is, it only has to deal with what passes the barriers, that's how it manages. If the infectious dose is too much for the immune system to handle, the disease develops and can not be stopped anymore without medical intervention.

>And I was asking for some concrete data. How much testing of non-human samples relative to human samples have made people say that ANY pathogen is host-dependent. I would hope for at least 1:1, and you should too. Can you provide the data?
I asked you to state a concrete pathogen for which data MIGHT and MIGHT NOT be available for the answer for you question. The most I can give you is an example. The term you are supposed to google is "host specificity" and what you'll find is concrete results for concrete pathogens which were probably tested on a limited sample of organisms, since you don't have unlimited resources in a lab. The best studied is probably bacteriophages infecting bacteria, since it's easy to study.

My last reply

>>9939237
I've been surprised on how much science detail they've been including in some of the details. A few of the facts are something you won't learn in an undergraduate course lol

>>9939285
>How much testing of non-human samples relative to human samples have made people say that ANY pathogen is host-dependent. I would hope for at least 1:1, and you should too.
Another instance of you showing zero understanding of biology. Every single virus is host dependent, this is elementary shit. These things can't reproduce without infecting. Both flu and ebola are viruses and they are 100% Host dependent.

>>9939306
meant as reply to >>9939262

Quit bumping this damn bait thread, I was hoping it would be gone by today. lmao at that pic, glyphosate? So they're putting roundup in vaccines now?

>be little
>taken to get vaccinated
>scared as hell about it beforehand
>not otherwise pain-averse but was super paranoid about needles as a kid
>broke my arm as a kid but remember nothing about the accident or treatment
>remember very well getting vaxxed and how fucked up it felt
>tfw realise years later I innately knew the Truth back then, it was everyone else that was brainwashed
>tfw God had already put the Truth in my heart
>tfw I was right all along, even as a little kid

oh well I still don't get sick much, but definitely not getting my own kids vaxxed.

>>9939161
Funny how flatards argue oposite. That people engage and argue them and act that its somehow "proof"

>>9939306

Then it should be easy enough to provide data pertaining to testing non-human samples relative to human ones for said pathogens.

>>9939285

Seriously?

>actual virologist here
>two replies later
>MY LAST REPLY

Sad. Anyway, if anyone wants to pick up the slack:

This is backward reasoning. You're saying:

1. An immune principle exclusively operating within the immune system's literary delimitation HAS to exist.
2. This description speaks of a system intuitively, rationally, and empirically insufficient to perform its alleged function.
3. Therefore there HAS to be preliminary parsing of foreign material through barriers not qualitatively imbued with the immune principle.

It would far more intellectually honest to say:

1. The outer or adjacent barriers that allegedly lessen such a system's load are observed to be fundamentally permeable and qualitatively less capable of parsing foreign material than the alleged immune system itself. Think of inner lung surface area, reverse flow through skin pores, the passage from the nose straight to the brain, etc.
2. The sheer mass of foreign material entering such a system would produce extraordinary measurements were it, as consensually described, actually performing its alleged functions in keeping most people rather healthy for most of their lives.
3. Therefore there is no immune principle or system.

Also:

>>9939237
>watch some anime!

Utterly disappointed. My God.

>>9939496
you're fucking retarded and people will still notice even if you try to hide it behind your pretentious use of language you fucking pseud.

>>9934087
Why is this even a discussion? Thimerosal can't cross the BBB.
OP claims to be in the right because he posts a lot of dumb fake studies, but anyone with a basic knowledge of biology/ochem knows that those studies are paranoid shit with no actual proofs.

>>9939496
Calm down with the reddit spacing, you massive faggot.

>>9939506
>>9939511

See:

>>9939191

That's more like it! VACCINU AKBAR! IMMUNUSHALLAH!

>>9939522
Show me proofs that Thimerosal can cross the BBB you fucking retard.

>>9939525

My argument is simply that germ theory is absurd. Debating vaccines is taboo not so much because vaccines are bad, but because Medicine as a whole rests on germ theory, and vaccine critique is conducive to germ theory critique.

>>9939532
So you don't belief that diseases spread?
what level of next shit are you on?

>>9939534

They do. But "pathogens" in bodies are most likely byproducts of diseases.

>>9939496
>You're saying:
No that's not what he's saying, but nice attempt at strawmanning. I especially like the nonsensical attempt at verbose phrasing, like "literary delimitation." He did not say that the immune system's success implies the existence of barriers. He said the existence of barriers allows for the immune system's success. We already know the barriers exist, independent of our knowledge of the immune system. You sound mentally ill.

>>9939571

You're misreading both replies, especially mine.

>>9939542
then we wouldn't be able to culture organisms and trigger disease in new hosts.

>>9939585
How?

stop replying to this faggot thread thanks

>>9939630
i refuse

>>9939496
the reason why I said it was my last post because I don't feel like talking to you anymore. You interpret whatever anyone says with your own words, twist them, and make up your own shit while using your faggotspeak to sound intellectual. You're an absolute shithead and if you think I'm writing this as some ad-hominem, you're wrong, I'm not even going to argue with you because I know it's no use with people like you. Whenever you get told you're wrong you just ignore it as if nothing happened and retort with some dumb faggotry the shitcase you call your skull excretes

saged

>>9939614

Possibly, but deliberate induction is quite different from the basic definition of disease. Anyway, speaking of Biosemiotics and such, this thread is definitely making me ill.

"My last reply"

>>9939640

Pathology be damned, nothing is more vexing to an Anglo than his native language after all.

>>9939645
no it's not, it's the exact same thing. if you demonstrate that an organism causes disease after introduction then you've found the cause

>>9939511
>fake studies
>IOM
>CDC
>FDA
>gold standard that is accepted by literally everyone
I guess all of these people are wrong because most of what I've said comes from them.

>>9939496
>>watch some anime!
>Utterly disappointed. My God.
Are you seriously looking down on Cells at Work?

>>9934087
Guys! Hey listen! What if... no, listen, WHAT IF op is just a troll, and all you faggots postin' in a toll thread??????

>>9940115
What a thought!
What's next, all the replies like this one are by posted by professional disinformant shills?

http://whale.to/vaccines.html

>>9940160
Vaccines are so safe they need protection from liability. They wont dare show a study comparing a vaccinated group to a non vaccinated group.

>>9935672
>Think of sewage alone, free to constantly aerosolise through hundreds of openings in all cities.
>He thinks storm drains connect to the same pipes as his toilet

>>9936824
Racist AND an anti vaccine?

>>9940179

Many cities still have the storm drains connected to the sewer.

>>9934290
Here in the Netherlands, every once in a while a bunch of kids from anti vax parents die from some disease almost no one here has seen with their own eyes.

I'm going to just not follow their logic. Mostly because their kids ended up dead.

>>9940863
every once in a while millions of kids develop chronic illnesses and thousands die from the vaccines.

OP youve actually gotten me to think about this and theres a chance you might be right. but at the end of the day even though the data and evidence isnt perfect we're still going to lean in favor of vacs. youre doing a really good thing by challenging people to question their assumtions and epistemology though so thanks

>>9940879
>and thousands die from the vaccines.
Pft.

>>9940901
I'm glad I was able to make at least one person think, I am not asking for people to become anti-vax, I want people to use their own eyes when they see a child having a seizure after their vaccines, I want people to question the safety of vaccines and if they are being made for the people and not profit, questions like why does the safesty product have no liability.

>>9940905
It's worth it.

if vaccines are a net positive to humans, then suppression of antivax thinking might be a net positive to humans (even if the suppression is done in an unscientific and moral authoritarian way)
also, if you are antivax, then dont vax your kid. your kid will have an advantage in life and be healthier than his peers. do we really care about other people being harmed from vaccines (if they are). maybe somehow vaccines hurting and killing children will benefit me, maybe less taxes will be spent on education and more on infrastructure i dont know...

>>9940972
Hahah, no, vaccines are causing a major increase in chronic illness and autism, in fact its such an issue that the tax payers are going to be the ones who end up losing over this.
https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/autism%E2%80%99s-costs-us-economy-estimated-top-265-billion-2015
1 trillion dollars by 2025, autism is now an epidemic greater than cancer or diabetes. And they want to enforce mandatory vaccinations, so not only can you not opt out and have to watch your own kid become vaccine injured with NO ability to fight them because they are immune from liability, you'll have to end up paying more on your taxes because these autistic kids cant work, they cant benefit society, they are a burden and you are going to have to pay for people to take care of them 24/7.

>>9934129
And your argument? You're just proving OP right

>>9940981
can you imagine some way that more children having autism would benefit me factoring in the cost to taxpayers? maybe i would have less competition in the workplace because more parents will have to devote more time at home taking care of their autistic kids. i dont have or want children. maybe increasing rates of autism will marginally shift public and social pressure to have children to be lower

>>9934284
You need to loosen the strap on that tinfoil hat of yours.

>>9934556
Good 'ol henry makow .com man. I do all my research there. It's top quality peer reviewed stuff. You can tell by because it says satanic possession at the top. I used to pay for a subscription to nature but not after I found out about henry makow .com. Its the real deal!

>>9941003
>I don't have an actual argument so I'm just going to attack the site.

>>9941007
I looked at the site and saw you didn't have an argument either.

>>9941010
The polio vaccine GAVE children polio, as Eddy proved with her monkeys when doing safety tests, they still gave out the vaccine and countless children died. Let's not even mention the fact that the polio vaccine was contaminated with SV40 and they found out in 1960 and it took them until 1963 to take it off the market. I wonder why cancer is such a big thing now, it's almost like we gave cancer to millions of people and put them at risk and their children by extension.

>>9941018
It was a bad manufacturing batch shit happens. The process is now far more regulated because of it. I realize that being "in the know" of some global conspiracy makes you feel smarter and more important but get it together.

>>9941018
I'm not going to claim that every vaccine ever produced was perfect, but vaccines on the whole are safe, vaccine theory is good and when they do fuck up a vaccine, pharmaceuticals are held to account.
A lot of misinformation is being thrown around, but you can't keep rejecting studies that find no link between vaccines and autism until you find a study that does.

>>9941029
>>9941043
>they only gave millions of people cancer that ONE time, c'mon, stop being so skeptical of them.
How about we do real studies and real science, Eddy was thrown out of science for saying that the vaccine was giving people cancer, the same thing is happening today. The science will never be settled and if you want a real study, do a vaccinated vs unvaccinated, it can be done ethically as people already have the freedom of choice so its not "killing" all the children in the study.

>>9941062
A real study of what? I'm sure there will be thousands of studies published this year alone on vaccinations.

>>9941066
I'm sure all those studies will just look at a group of vaccinated kids and compare them to other kids that were vaccinated, god forbid we try to look at the health concerns by comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated groups. When we do get these studies done right, we get results like pic related.

>>9934129
Don't waste your time - the next measles outbreak will do it for you

>>9941199
good news, there's a big measles outbreak spreading across the USA right now

>>9939645
>>Possibly, but deliberate induction is quite different from the basic definition of disease. Anyway, speaking of Biosemiotics and such, this thread is definitely making me ill.
You retarded motherfucker.
I'm so sick and tired of you 80 iq faggots reading some facebook article and then acting like you understand anything about the human body. I used to tolerate it at work but now I will call you out in public for how fucking dumb you are.
I had to call the cops on a woman last month who spewed the same kind of bullshit about her generic medication. I told her how much of a dumb fuck she was and she fucking lost it in public.

See, this is the problem with subsidizing medicine for the masses.
You think they have this "debate" in india, where only the highest castes have access to vaccines and antibiotics?
I think you don't deserve healthcare if you don't have the ability to maintain a full time job. Imagine the fucking utopia that the US would be if we just let that group of people die.
If you're a low IQ nigger who feels like dying of polio, by all means PLEASE don't get vaccinated.
>>9940981
>autism is now an epidemic greater than cancer or diabetes
You know why? Because crossbred mutts like you have a much higher incidence of developmental problems.
I'm sorry creatura, but your autism is caused by your faggot father shared his disgusting mixed race fucked up chromosomes with your whore mother who made it her her mission to collect the shitty recessive genetics of every single mutt nigger she came in contact with until her 30's.

>>9936753
>I can't give you any direct sources but I'll tell you that if the CDC offers to do a 100% vaccinated vs unvaccinated study you will have countless anti-vaxxers signing up
you mean like they gather 1000 vaccinated people in a room and 1000 unvaccinated people in another room then fill the rooms with a high concentration of something really infectious?
I would be down for seeing that study as long as the unvaccinated group has an age limit of like at least 25 so retarded parents do not kill their kids

>>9942451
>who made it her her mission to collect the shitty recessive genetics of every single mutt nigger she came in contact with until her 30's.
that is not how genetics work anon
>>>/pol/
pls go kai?

>>9942460
>that is not how genetics work anon
oh but it is
sorry to break it to you, but you have a bit of every nigger your mother fucked before settling down with you cuck dad

>>9942461
as if there is something wrong with one or both of your parents being a POC?

>>9939532

>>9941130
>Study asks mothers who don't believe in science and don't go to doctors generally if doctors have diagnosed illnesses in their children
Why do we fund this "research"

>>9942452
You don't even know shit about the study, it's not about the effectiveness of the vaccine, it could have a 100% rate but if it's killing 80% of the people who get it, whats the point. The vaccinated vs unvaccinated study looks at the health issues people experience after long-term vaccine use, so you comapre a group of 1000 people who followed the schedule to 1000 people who got no vaccines and see who gets cancer, seizures, stroke, heart attacks, autism, learning disabilities, rates of illnesses, everything, if the vaccines are not as dangerous as they say, the vaccines wont be showing several times higher rates of these chronic illnesses and death.

>>9942471
>as if there is something wrong with one or both of your parents being a POC?
Yes. You end up like op

>>9941130
>homeschooled
I knew a home schooled guy once. He crosdressed and sucked cock as a hobby. Of course, I would be lying if I said I didn't brutally fuck his throat.

No wonder people are anti-vax, literally nobody in this thread except them are giving any statistics, any data, any science. I thought we were the science side? Where is our data?

>>9942504
1 google search anon. Just because you can't understand something or you don't feel like understanding something doesn't mean it's false.

https://www.healthychildren.org/English/safety-prevention/immunizations/Pages/Vaccine-Studies-Examine-the-Evidence.aspx

>>9942481
lmao, this study was retracted because of this exact reason

>>9942514
>asking parents to recall their child's diseases instead
>disease range from what can be interpreted as personality flaws to obvious signs like fever
>antivaxxers have confirmation bias and are less likely to see the doctor for any disease

no one saw this coming

>>9941130
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2017/05/08/a-horrendously-bad-vaxedunvaxed-study-rises-from-the-dead-yet-again/

I like how we assume vaccines are not related to autism simply because we looked at Thimerosal and Autism, and even that study had William Thompson come forward whistle blowing on them, also Poul thornsen had stolen from the research funds for those studies and was part of many of them and they never verified his studies. We studied Thimerosal and MMR, what about the other dozens of vaccines and ingredients and cumulative studies looking at health issues, why are we assuming they are safe without these studies?

>>9942531

1 google search you fucking brainlet.

I can guarantee you that every vaccine has a study behind it proving its safety.

>>9942536
I have looked, the only study I have ever seen conducted by the CDC looking at autism is when Wakefield came forward and they looked at Thimerosal and the MMR and concluded that no link exists but then William Thompson came forward and revealed discarded data that showed a link between MMR and black kids. I've never seen a cumulative study, would you mind linking any studies you can find on these?This is all I could find
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2673970
All it does is look at whether children who get more vaccines get sick more from diseases they aren't vaccinated against, but what about the studies looking at chronic health issue associated with higher vaccine rates, I want that study.

>>9942536
>08/16/18
Ironically, it was probably a google search that made him an anti vaxxer

>>9942540
https://www.healthychildren.org/English/safety-prevention/immunizations/Pages/Vaccine-Studies-Examine-the-Evidence.aspx

Stop being wilfully ignorant and/or straight up lying.

>>9942547
I already linked the first study from there and it does not look at the rates of chronic illness or neurological issues based on cumulative vaccines given, only the rates of illnesses for non vaccine diseases. Could you point me to the specific study you are hoping for me to see? Don't just dump a list of 50 studies on me, all I want is a link to which one you are referring to.

>>9942498
>sucked cock as a hobby
That's an interesting way to put it.

I haven't been sick in 8 years, short of an occassional runny nose from allergies.

How the fuck can you retards sit around still trying to discuss what is or isn't healthy. You've yet to win and be right on it.

You don't get sick by germs, you don't get sick by spores, you don't get sick by infection, you don't get sick by viruses, these are all fucking made up bullshit. You get sick by letting your guard down and someone muttering or doing something in your view. Airborne isn't airborne, it's spoken, and more than spoken on the belief that you are programmed to understand what airborne is. The short of it is, you get sick cause [math]\color{red}{\text{you know}}[/math] you're going to get sick, and nothing more, and is a fucking hole in reality that I've been living in for 8 fucking years so you can't tell me I'm wrong.

Get fucking better you pathetic pieces of shit. No doctor or medecine could do better for you than you just intelligently THINKING. You don't even have to lift a fucking finger.

>>9942425

...and?

>>9942591
How can people be this retarded.
>>9942553
>>9942540
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23847024
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24814559
https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476%2813%2900144-3/pdf
https://www.nationalacademies.org/hmd/~/media/Files/Report%20Files/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality/Vaccine-report-brief-FINAL.pdf

Also aren't neurological issues "rates of illnesses for diseases that the vaccines do not target". Every single study looks at diseases that vaccines do not target. What are you even saying?

>>9942553
Additionally, the source I gave out lists the results of every single study. It's 50 sentences to read. Not that hard.

>>9943026
Why did you respond to such obvious bait?

>>9942425
finally, a man with some balls

>>9940903
I dunno, but where I live and read the news, I haven't heard of a recent single death due to vaccination in the newspaper.

Groups of unvaccinated kids getting sick and a bunch of them dying because their parents know each other and let them play together, well, that actually happens from time to time.

>>9941130
There's a reason that paper is in the retracted pages archive m8

>>9942461
A more varied genotype tends to be more stable, but sure, you go for incest

xth for hasagi

I won't be vaxxing my kids,

>>9944193
Congrats you're retarded

>>9944193
Please don't inflict the consequences of your stupidity onto other people.

>>9944193
Not vaxxing the no kids you'll have won't prove anything.

>>9944193
Because you will never get your own kids.