/sci/ - Science & Math

Kids in public schools today receive better education than literally 99% of all people throughout the 20th century.

>>9895402
I agree with you but why stop at it's better than it was however long ago, were better off against disease for the (time being) than people in the 20th century but we don't just stop research


Plus society changes people arn't going to work in factories in droves anymore

>>9895424
Sorry for the crude example of factories, just what i could think of off the top of my head, but you get my point

>>9895364
there's no real reason for a kid going through public school to want to do anything, the incentive system is fucked and the classes are so dumbed down that anyone who wants to do well and has half a brain cell will be bored out of their fucking mind. The problem really is that we mix kids in too much, there are tons of non-bookish types who go mad sitting at a desk listening and taking notes and they drag down the average substantially. there needs to be some mechanism by which these kids get moved to other classes or helped. keeping up this "everyone is equal" mentality will cost us in the long run. sure pretty much every kid could go through two or three times the class difficulty they have now and come out fine, but the question isn't "Can they do it" but "would they do it"

>>9895364
demolish common core
its standardized, and standardized isn't good
try a thousand different ways of teaching kids, and the good ways will stick

>>9895364
>My elementary school never taught us times tables till 7th grade
How?

>>9895364
>My elementary school never taught us times tables till 7th grade
Uhh, sounds like is a localized issue to me.

>>9895479
>>9895482
Yes my case was particularly bad, but it's still fairly bad across the US

Ex teacher here. This is why I left the public education system, in addition to other things.

IMO the system is just too deeply entrenched to be fixed.

The only solution I see is the promotion of private schools that can offer a wide variety of curriculum and education styles. To this end any parent who sends their child to a private school should have whatever proportion of the tax they pay for state education reimbursed. This would assist them in paying for private education rather than effectively paying twice, once for a system they don't use and for the private school they do use for their children.

I would see the rise of a host of private schools, competing against each other to provide the sort of education that the people want. Let social Darwinism rule the outcome. Those schools which do provide the education people want for their children will thrive, those which are ineffective will close down as the parents take their children out and place them in better performing schools.

>>9895479
And as to how we just did a lot of pointless projects that took forever, but my main point which I could of made better is that in the us public schools need to teach stuff like multiplication way earlier

I saw I thread the other day about homeschooling and it had a decent setup for grade by grad curriculum with multiplication being in second or third grade

I have multiple relative who are teachers who are talk about how late kids learn subjects and how they teach their kids at home earlier than what school teaches them

>>9895489
I never put much thought into it but if private schools were the common thing then there would hopefully be a great balance of competition between schools.

>>9895487
>>9895494
>I saw I thread the other day about homeschooling and it had a decent setup for grade by grad curriculum with multiplication being in second or third grade
I don't know anon, something here sounds very fishy. You do learn multiplication in 2nd grade in public school, certainly not 7th.
Can you tell me what exactly you were doing for 7 years in school regarding math if not you didn't learn any multiplication in that time? In 7th grade we were doing basic algebra, and my school was a ghetto inner city school in East New York

>>9895489
>>9895482
>>9895479
>>9895472
I should of specified that when I refer to education I refer to the shit show that is the US education system

If anyone from another country has any input that would be great as most countries beat the US outright

Lastly I feel that schools need to be a bit more fun or enjoyable not sure how I would put it, I DON'T mean make all education video game or some stupid group game, I mean trying and make it intriguing and not read this text book,

Example:
English class let kids have more freedom to choose famous authors who they like, and you could let kids write their own creative stories and papers on the books they choose

History: I had an 89 year old history teacher who would let you do many different things to get credit as long as pertained to the time period they were studying you wanted to sing a song and do a presentation on the music of the 1940's and how it influenced the culture then go ahead, you want to write a paper and do a presentation on sports and how they tired in with the racism at the time go head etc.

>>9895364
Three things to fix the situation.

Teachers must practice unbiased politics, and must be 50% male and 50% female. It's are not allowed in the building.

Physical training must be incorporated into the curriculum and mandatory fitness tests must be held with remedial training for failures. Fitness tiers will be allowed, but only to funnel weaklings into becoming stronger, not as a cess pool for shammers to coagulate.

Teachers will be allowed to put students in their place through physical means if necessary. Whether they need a taser or pepper spray it doesn't matter. Establish the authority, and anyone who breaks against it, break them.

The fundamental reason behind this, is to build a person up as a strong but respectful individual. Physical health improves mental health, and after removing feel good sjw faggotry and standardized testing. We would see improved citizens with morals and values who want to learn. Believe it.

>>9895529
I honestly don't see how 50/50 male-to-female ratio would fix anything.
The underlying problem is that men are better at treating men and women for women.
This could easily be fixed with segregation but people are way too retarded to listen to reason at this point about that topic.

>>9895533
teaching, not treating*
I'm sure that's true as well though

>>9895489
I'm an American for reference.

>IMO the system is just too deeply entrenched to be fixed.

Too big to fail is real. Something REALLY radical would need to happen. Kids need to be able fail and the districts need some authority to tell kids fuck off. Otherwise what's the fucking point? Schools would be better if you cut the deadweight in the classrooms who either distract students or cause violence like in inner city schools.

Note some exceptions because a monopoly on education is fucked.
>more schools that allow competition whether it be public or private competition
>get rid of zero tolerance
>PC culture needs to go away completely or lessen.
>students having more autonomy and the school doesn't nanny them; emulate colleges at late middle school age.
>Give states, cities, boroughs more autonomy as well

A major overlooked issue is broken homes because kids without a solid background have no hope. I'm not sure how to fix that one without overtaxing the schools or simply coming off as a fascist.

There's so many variables with education I can't believe that we even have something that works.

>>9895533
I'm not, anon. Honestly segregation would work pretty well for a lot of things. Homogenous groups can be beneficial.

>>9895549
It's bizarre how modern leftism is promoting segregation in an abstract way by demanding safe spaces, white free zones and other restrictions of movement.

I'm almost pol tier in political orientation but if you market the ideas of the far left and far right toward their respective group it's easy to see how they're isomorphic.

>White people are a hazard to our culture, gentrification is an awful thing and we want to build our own communities.

>Black people are a hazard to our culture, crime rates increase, property values drop, and we want our own sense of community.

Both lead to the same result for different rationals.

>>9895562
>Secret Roman salute
We both know that Toxoplasma gondii parasites are responsible for libshits and their insanity.

>>9895364
Not science or math(s)

Education is politics

>>9895591
That's the problem OP is trying to solve, retard

>>9895594
It still has no relation to actual science whatsoever

Why can't you Ameritards fucking stop talking about politics every single day

>>9895609
If schools actually gave a fuck about science & math we wouldn't be talking about this.
>That's why it's relevant

I agree with the homework part. As a kid I had the same thought where I was at school 8 hours a day, why the fuck do I have to do homework too. Especially when 60% of the time in school is just fucking around because the teachers are lazy.

>>9895364

30 year old Boomer here.

Public schools in the USA I went to were mostly about brainwashing people into following orders.

It went like this "f you had poor grades, it must be because you were a disobediant student."

>>9895572

Spotted the degenerate Cholo pitbull over.

unironically end the federal department of education

divert military funding to the education system. all teacher salary schedules start at the median income for the county. no out of pocket expenses for teachers. free college for anyone who wants it.

I've thought about this a ton. Unironically segregate students of different talent levels into separate schools entirely. Sort of like the "gymnasium" system in Germany, or the "Liceum" in Italy for the brightest, where the average college-bound kid of above average iq gets into a regular prep school, and the average iq goes into skilled trades, and so on. Give every 12yo an iq test and put them in different schools depending on their iq.

The top 5% (future physics/pure math geniuses, PhDs, brain surgeons, etc)

>elite classical education with greek and latin, and other languages like french, german, and russian which you can pick from which are taught in an immersion setting
>do mathematical proofs and math through differential equations
>teach them advanced philosophy like kant and wittgenstein
>reading literature in foreign languages
>teach questioning authority

The next 15% (top 20%, upper middle class programmers, management, engineers, etc)

>average prep school curriculum
>ap level classes
>1 foreign language
>calculus or w/e

The next 30% (top 50%, skilled tradesmen)

>trade school focusing on skilled trades
>glass worker, welder, carpenter, etc
>no foreign language needed

The next 30% (top 80%, brainless manual labor)

>teach them how to not chimp out
>teach them to obey authority

The retards:

>a complete waste of time educating them
The problem with school is putting kids of different iqs all under the same roof. Especially when that includes blacks, other undesirables, etc. We are wasting the talent of the brightest kids by making them sit in classes that are extremely boring for them when they could be doing college level material 5-6 years earlier easily. A lot of the issues with the school system (other than the fact that it beats obedience into your head) are because of this.

Find a flaw with this system, protip; you can't.

>>9895667

What do you do with people who are great in one subject but suck in the other?

>>9895667
What if this system is already in place and we're the brainless manual labor...!

>>9895677
ahh fuck, digits...! Sorry guys!

>>9895544

In many respects the education system reflects the nature of the society. It could be argued that to some extent the performance of schools is a function of the performance of the society.

We have today a society in western countries where a huge proportion of both parents work, or where many children come from one parents households, and where many people rely upon social welfare. I would argue that these factors contribute largely to generations of many children belonging to families where 1) Education is not valued or reinforced within the home, 2) Personal discipline and self control is not sufficiently practiced and 3) There is far less teacher-parent engagement as in the past.

The sum of this is to create classroom environments where teachers have far less control, resulting in vastly increased downtime in learning and also a shortage of quality teachers ( as many leave after a few years due to frustration and burn out, or are put off from even becoming a teacher in the first place because of these reasons ).

I believe teacher moral is low in many schools because teachers simply have little control over their work environment.

In addition a teacher's hours are often now "nickle and dimed" away during the day in attending pointless meetings, carrying out extra duties outside the class, and in the near obligatory demand to fulfill extra curriculum activates such as coaching sports teams. this not to even mention the extra demand placed on teacher's time to attend to the extra paperwork that has arisen in the past twenty or so years with regards to satisfying bureaucracy.

With respect to private schools the focus that I would pursue would be to give back to teachers the sort of control that they need to maintain an effective classroom environment catered towards learning. Their extra curricular activities would be heavily reduced if they wanted. Finally their paperwork would be reduced significantly.

>>9895489

>Let social Darwinism rule the outcome.

How about we about we adress the actual problem involving a society who states education is "important" by asking if said society is prepared to institute a near or full 24/7 all encompassing education ecosystem that is ubiquitous?

Ironically enough your "Social Darwinism" already choose it's hero in the ecosystem that east asian countries provide by asking parents to relinquish their children's time to be primarily dominanted by schooling. The fact is they do better than the U.S. and most of the west because they put more time into it. Their kids spend over half the day doing schooling, attending school year round and way more hours studying on average. Rather than depending on a bunch a private schools to duke it out they instead realize that at the end of the day that the best solution is to make it closer to a lifestyle/way of life than a day to day goal orientation that they can disconnect from once they hit graduation or even when they leave school for the day.

>>9895462
ability grouping is a big nono in america because it will inevitable create the same racial hierarchy that we see in iq tests and SAT scores.

>>9895667
The problem with this methodology is late bloomers or early bloomers which is a common enough problem to warrant serious reconsideration from segregating youths on IQ. Especially when they aren't fully developed and their abilities still remain somewhat fluid.

>>9895667
mostly based, id say that the top people should probably be more like the top 20% and the rest should just get pretty much what's offered now. Also the high iq people should get much more choice in what they learn imo. Most gifted schools do it this way. Classical languages are a meme as someone who who did spanish french and latin just because the only alternative was woodshop or some other brainlet shit. The main issue with american schools is definitely the lack of ability grouping but it wont be fixed any time in the near future because ability grouping and racial segregation will end up being almost the same thing.

>>9895364
I think the whole situation is fucked beyond any hope of truly saving it short of a complete hard reset and rebuilding it from the ground up. Since that'll never happen though, some things that might at least marginally improve it:

>Stop with the trend of just giving "gifted"/higher achieving students more busy work
It's not universal but it happens enough to be a problem, rather than just more work advanced students should be given more advanced material and allowed to mostly learn at their own pace
>Avoid "busy work" as a whole
There is no fucking point in forcing the students to do work just for the sake of doing work, if there is not any actual benefit from the work it should not be given.
>Stop teaching kids to hate the very concept of learning
This one is a tougher one to pin down exactly and I doubt there's a simple solution, but in my own experience and that of many people I know the way the school system works essentially induced something akin to trauma leading to an almost physical revulsion at the idea of willingly reading or learning anything; I was unable to bring myself to even read for a year or two after finishing school

One final point that isn't directly related to the thread but deserves mentioning, the mentality of "everyone has to go to college and it's the only path to success" needs to fucking go, plenty of people do not need to and should not go to college but it's drilled into everyone's head from birth that it's the only possible path. This is a direct cause of the abhorrent student loan situation in the US currently as well as a number of other problems with higher education

>>9895364
>>9895462
>>9895667
this. (minus the racism). get rid of the egalitarian ideal. it is pointless and damaging to lots of people
>>9895723
there are lots of problems with the current methodology.

>>9895364
Why do you think public education is shit ? Especially in placed like North America. Governments don't want smart well rounded people, but rather drones.

>>9895364
Privatisation

>>9895821
>minus the racism
Why? You can't deny reality.

>>9895667
>foreign languages
Wtf is this meme? Literally the most useless class you can take in any school especially if you already speak English

America's PISA scores are about on par with Norway's or France's or Sweden's, so not bad.
https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2015/pisa2015highlights_3.asp
I think the main issue with schooling is not the schools themselves, but the students. This is why poor immigrant households in poor neighborhoods do so well compared to native-born children in the same neighborhoods.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.173.7479&rep=rep1&type=pdf
I feel like I should cite this. There is an interesting study on the Chicago public school system's experiment with moving kids from poor performing schools to rich areas with high performing schools. I used it as my main citation for a paper I wrote in an econ class.

Students from poor schools were able to apply for high performance schools in wealthy neighborhoods received free transportation to get there. Due to an overwhelming number of applicants, the school system chose to use a random lottery to select winners. And thus an economic experiment was borne.

The conclusion of that study was striking. The students that won the lottery and attended the wealthy, high performing schools had the same average grades, test scores, and college acceptance rate as the students that didn't win the lottery and stayed in their gangster infested ghetto schools. Most notably, both groups scored much higher in all metrics compared to students who didn't bother applying for the lottery at all. It didn't actually matter which school you went to, all that mattered was that you were motivated enough to try.