/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9874828
if you dont understand this you can just pretend its god's magic and or a government/aliens flat earth conspiracy

1. they can't disappear into the air again because the air has become too cold and reached 100% saturation already. sun rays dont affect that situation much.

2. during cloud growth phase, there is a constant upwards wind that keeps the balance i suppose. dont know how it sustains itself afterwards though, good question desu

3. the subtle electric dipole shape of water molexule keeps them together like little magnets, and maybe thats also a factor for answering question #2

>>9874864
How does that diagram explain anything?

>>9874870
>1. they can't disappear into the air again because the air has become too cold and reached 100% saturation already. sun rays dont affect that situation much.
The sun doesn't heat the air/water vapour up?

>2. during cloud growth phase, there is a constant upwards wind that keeps the balance i suppose. dont know how it sustains itself afterwards though, good question desu

>2. during cloud growth phase, there is a constant upwards wind that keeps the balance i suppose. dont know how it sustains itself afterwards though, good question desu
Not sure anyone knows.

>3. the subtle electric dipole shape of water molexule keeps them together like little magnets, and maybe thats also a factor for answering question #2

But when we observe water vapour on earth, it wants to separate from itself/equilibrate rather than stick together like clouds which can then maintain its shape from wind.

>>9874891
>3
the effect is less visible in water vapor than fully ionized particles in smoke, but the attraction is still there, forming "chunks".

>>9874891
>How does that diagram explain anything?
its a phase diagram moron

clouds usually sit at the bottom, coldest and highest pressure part of a layer of air in the atmosphere. The air directly below them is warmer and less saturated with water than the part the cloud are in. As water from the surface evaporates and rises into the atmosphere, it cools of and eventually condenses. The part where this happens usually defines a boundary layer in the atmosphere where the air is colder and contains a lot more water. Heavy clouds, like Cumulus clouds, actually usually do contain some rain, it just never reaches this surface. This constant cycle of evaporate-cool-condense-fall is what drive cloud development, and also give larger clouds the energy and electric potential to create lightning.
Clouds generally don't form in highly turbulent are, which is why they always seem to carry their shape. When they move with air currents, it's usually a larger prevailing wind that doesn't disrupt their structure too much, but as they gain mass and become storms, they can influence the wind themselves and the generally dissipate and lose their shape in the form of rain.

t. Meteorologist, you can ask me any other questions about clouds

>>9874946
does phase diagram play a role in figuring out lower atmosphere behavior, or did the other anon just want to troll?

>>9874986
>i dont know what a dewpoint is

>>9874986
Yes, it does. That's why clouds appear at different layers in the atmosphere. Higher up, they cross the phase from gas to solid, and most of the clouds are made of ice crystals. The cloud layers are defined according to the pressure-temperature in that phase diagram.

>>9874917
So clouds are electromagnetic?

>>9874936
I'll ask again, how does that explain anything?

>>9874946
>The air directly below them is warmer and less saturated with water than the part the cloud are in
Wouldn't that heat the cloud up?

>As water from the surface evaporates and rises into the atmosphere, it cools of and eventually condenses.
At this point, surely its density would force it back down?

>Heavy clouds, like Cumulus clouds, actually usually do contain some rain, it just never reaches this surface.
Why isn't gravity pulling the whole cloud down?

>This constant cycle of evaporate-cool-condense-fall is what drive cloud development, and also give larger clouds the energy and electric potential to create lightning.
What is the condensation latching onto to stay in the air?

>Clouds generally don't form in highly turbulent are, which is why they always seem to carry their shape. When they move with air currents, it's usually a larger prevailing wind that doesn't disrupt their structure too much
Wouldn't any wind change the shape? Otherwise you're saying that water vapour clouds are strong enough to withstand gravity and wind (and the sun's rays). Plus, the earth is rotating, and the atmosphere is rotating with it, which adds another layer of complexity.

>>9875055
>Wouldn't that heat the cloud up?
>At this point, surely its density would force it back down?
These two mechanisms cause the evaporate-cool-condense-fall cycle I described, and actually drives clouds formation, instead of preventing it as you seem to think.

>Why isn't gravity pulling the whole cloud down?
Lots of things prevent this. Rising water vapor causes a constant updraft within clouds that helps, but also these droplets are often small enough to simply float in the highly saturated air they are in. Cloud don't exist in the same kind of air we experience on the ground surface, but sometimse the conditions are the same at ground level and it creates what we call fog. Fog is very similar to a cloud (not exactly though).

>What is the condensation latching onto to stay in the air?
It doesn't need to latch onto anything if there's enough buoyant forces and wind keeping it up.

>Wouldn't any wind change the shape?
Most wind does, that's why the conditions have to be right. Clouds move in large prevailing winds that lack turbulence. Turbulent air usually encourages the small water droplets that form clouds to come together and form larger rain drops that can't be help up by wind or buoyant forces.

>>9875055
>how does the diagram that explains it explain it
i refer you back to the second option in this post >>9874864

>>9874828
When air rises, it cools as the pressure decreases. See ideal gas law.
When air cools, the water vapour (gas, invisible) condenses into cloud droplets (liquid, visible), because warmer air can hold more vapour. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clausius%E2%80%93Clapeyron_relation..
Likewise, when air warms relative humidity decreases and liquid water evaporates into gas form, so what you are seeing in the picture is of air flowing over a mountain, cooling as it rises and warming as it drops, allowing the water vapour in the air to become visible, liquid, cloud while it is colder/higher.

>>9874946
>>9875069
These are horrible, misleading, and pretty pretty incorrect explanations.

Who hired you?

>>9875172
I'm trying to put things in layman's terms

>>9875173
Ya but your first sentence is just flat out wrong.

>>9874828
>clouds are made of extremely small particles of water vapour,
They aren't. The stuff you see is water droplets/ice crystals. Water vapour is pretty much invisible. Clouds form when the temperature gets too low for the air to hold all that vapour.

>>9875174
Which part? Can you correct me? I'm not exactly a trained expert yet, so learning how I'm wrong would be nice.

i think you have to start with enthalpy of vaporization

the idea behind this is that the vaporization of water (the process of water becoming a gas) requires a certain amount of energy present, often in the form of heat. when hot air rises, it cools and becomes more saturated with water (as we said before, the maintainence of water in gaseous form requires a great deal of heat, and temperature tends to go down as you go up). as it cools and condenses, clouds form. they are kept afloat by rising air currents, i believe

Suspended water vapor droplets tend to be attracted to pieces of atmosphereic dust or salts (these are called condensation nuclei) that have low enough masses to where they too can be carried upward by rising air currents. the vapor droplets will then collide with other vapor droplets and grow until their downward velocity is greater than the velocity of the rising air current keeping them afloat

and that's when rains come

as for why clouds're white, i imagine it has something to do with the index of refraction of water and critical angles, could be wrong though

>>9874891
Damn if you really cant understand how the diagram answers your problem then you might be too retarded to post here.

>>9875669
>if you're not retarded, then you explain it

if you can conceptualize of how the diagram represents this specific physical situation, then you should be able to explain said physical situation and how the diagram explains it. if you're so capable of applying that diagram to an instance of natural phenomena, try making the world a marginally more knowledgable place and teaching anon something instead of taking some weird, shitty psuedo-intellectual high ground

fucking lazy asshole

>>9875669
>>9875716
Actually, that diagram isn't really all that relevant.

>>9875734
>>9875716

i wouldn't know/never claimed to, but i have a really high degree of antipathy for dudes whose only contribution is "hurr how do you not get this?? it's so easy?!"

like this one
>>9875669

>>9874828
Ignore these idiots, OP:

>>9874864
>>9875071
>>9875669

>>9875754
ya me too. How someone can think calling someone a retard and adding nothing else is some kind of contribution is beyond me.

>>9874828
You're welcome, I personally learnt this in kindergarten:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cycle

>>9875069
>It doesn't need to latch onto anything if there's enough buoyant forces and wind keeping it up.

while that may be true in some circumstances, i have read that vapor droplets are often attracted to floating dust particles, especially in later stages of cloud formation when it begins to rain

>>9874946
Why was cloud such a dick to tifa?

>>9875824
As the pressure on him increased, he became more dense and as a result his relationship with her ended up more turbulent.

>>9875770
Clouds need a nucleation site to start forming. Ice, dust, pollution, bacteria, etc, something for the vapor to condense onto. When enough water condenses onto these sites it becomes heavier than air pressure and updrafts can overcome and it falls out of the cloud.

>>9874828
Stay in school, kids.

Lenticular clouds are awsome. I got lucky and saw a big formation from the air off pike's peak while flying into CO.

>>9874828
what's your IQ, op?

>>9875069
>These two mechanisms cause the evaporate-cool-condense-fall cycle I described, and actually drives clouds formation, instead of preventing it as you seem to think.
Wouldn't that mean that there should be much more clouds above oceans? Since there's more evaporation there.

>Lots of things prevent this. Rising water vapor causes a constant updraft within clouds that helps, but also these droplets are often small enough to simply float in the highly saturated air they are in. Cloud don't exist in the same kind of air we experience on the ground surface, but sometimse the conditions are the same at ground level and it creates what we call fog. Fog is very similar to a cloud (not exactly though).
The higher the altitude, the less dense the air. I'm finding hard picturing little droplets of water that by their very nature will be denser than the air can not only float, but actually stay at the same altitude and attract to each other, creating a kind of structure.

>It doesn't need to latch onto anything if there's enough buoyant forces and wind keeping it up.
Sounds like magic.

>Most wind does, that's why the conditions have to be right. Clouds move in large prevailing winds that lack turbulence. Turbulent air usually encourages the small water droplets that form clouds to come together and form larger rain drops that can't be help up by wind or buoyant forces.
Clouds just seem to move too smoothly for it to be wind that is moving them, I have a feeling they're following a magnetic path of some kind.

>>9875157
>When air rises, it cools as the pressure decreases. See ideal gas law.
Yes, but air also equilibrates, particularly as the pressure decreases.

>When air cools, the water vapour (gas, invisible) condenses into cloud droplets (liquid, visible), because warmer air can hold more vapour. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clausius%E2%80%93Clapeyron_relation..
How can the denser liquid remain floating?

>>9875176
>They aren't. The stuff you see is water droplets/ice crystals.
How can something made of "ice crystals" not melt when in direct contact with sun light?

>>9875069
It doesn't need to latch onto anything if there's enough buoyant forces and wind keeping it up.

>>9876840
>Sounds like magic.


you're both fucking gay

>>9876573
and
>>9875660

are right

you need condensation nuclei for vapor drops to latch onto

>Clouds just seem to move too smoothly for it to be wind that is moving them, I have a feeling they're following a magnetic path of some kind.

>muh i have a hunch

yeah, that's not fucking true, dipshit

if that were the case, we would see clouds drift toward the earth's magnetic poles and not along prevailing winds

stop thinking that sight alone will elucidate any answers and take a fucking meteorology course, dude

>>9876854
>How can something made of "ice crystals" not melt when in direct contact with sun light?

because of this >>9874864

i swear you people are allergic to the answer

>>9874828
>The current "understanding" doesn't make any sense
They are painted in the sky by God anon, that's obvious. Now fuck off.

>>9874828
Aren't the mainly ice crystals? It's only low down that they become water vapour.

>>9877139
>It doesn't need to latch onto anything if there's enough buoyant forces and wind keeping it up.
>you're both fucking gay
It's true though. You don't need to go into condensation nuclei to explain how cloud stays up in the air. OP is a dumbass, try explaining mechanisms that make sense to him.

>>9874946
You're a cool anon. Cheers.

>>9875824
>>9876544
kek

>>9874864
this diagram explains nothing

>>9878121
It’s very esoteric
Unless you pick up a chemistry book or something, then you might have something like a clue.

>>9874864
Ignore this, wikipedia has a better diagram

>>9874828
here is a question for people, how many pounds of water in a cubic sq or cubic yard of cloud?
take the cloud in OP picture for example, how many tonnes of water exists in that and think how amazing its just floating in the air

>>9879641
i googled it
http://mentalfloss.com/article/49786/how-much-does-cloud-weigh

>>9878121
Phase change is dependent on several factors, the diagram illustrates these factors and how their combination result.

God, people keep posting all this worthless drivel in this thread. This diagram should explain everything, it's fairly comprehensive.

>>9879633
>>9879926
>>9879972

The diagram only shows that water is a liquid at 1 atm pressure between 0 and 100 Celcius, which is obviously not strictly the case because we all know that their is water vapour (a gas) present in the atmosphere at those temperatures and pressures.

With regards to clouds, these diagrams are totally irrelevant.

It's amazing how people who are wrong can have the confidence to spout their nonsense and the nerve to call people who disagree with them retards.

>>9874828
Also that stupid picture is shooped

>>9879989
Dude, just calm down. You obviously have some issues understanding what the diagram represents. It shows how, at certain temperatures and pressures, water makes the transition between different phases of matter. In these different "phases," the water molecules are arranged differently and thus take on different physical and at times even different chemical properties. This is the key mechanism lending to water condensation and precipitation. How the fuck is this hard to understand?

>>9880011
I hate you. I hate all retards. I hope you get your head stuck in something and die.

>>9880011
The problem is that while the information is correct it is wholly unhelpful when answering the 3 questions posed by OP.

>>9880013
Jesus christ, what is wrong with you?

>>9880013
I should make a salt mining corporation so i can become rich with all of the free salt you keep giving
Also clouds are social constructs and not real

>>9880026

>>9880026
what, do you believe in clouds you can't see or something
rofl look a this anon guys

>>9880019
here's 3 ansers for op to a retard:
1: this question is retarded. Light is energy that creates heat. clouds are made of trillions of water droplets that are constantly forming and disappearing. clouds absorb light.

2: this question is stupid. the droplets are small enough to be invisible sometimes. sometimes they get big enough to fall due to gravity. sometimes they can float in the air because they're small enough.

3:sometimes the wind moves in the same direction all at once and all the droplets move together. so they don't bump into each other and turn into bigger droplets.

>>9874828
What you think is a cloud in your picture is actually the result of a pressure wave that temporarily turns the water vapor into droplets. This happens because of a rapid increase in pressure or drop in temperature. In the case of your picture this is caused by the air passing over that mountain. That cloud is the water literally being squeezed out of the air.

1. They don't instantly disappear because the sunlight does not give them enough energy to dissolve back into the air.

2. The reason the water droplets do not fall is because their small size means that their weight has less effect on them than their drag. A slight breeze or updraft is enough to keep them aloft.

3. Clouds don't maintain their shape and are almost always changing. If you are asking why the wind doesn't destroy the clouds the answer is that they are not an object that obstructs the wind and can be destroyed but a phenomenon that follows the wind. The same reason it is hard to swim up river but easy to float downstream.

>>9880043
Wow you managed to answer all three questions without a phase diagram, weird how that was never necessary in the first place.

>>9880049
The phase diagram literally explains all of those things. You just need to actually think a little bit about what it means. That's why I tried to explain it, so that you could apply it to clouds. This isn't /r/askscience, we dont spoonfeed you everything here.

>>9880049
the diagram visualizes how the mechanism of conddesation might work, and gives you an intuitive idea of why maybe clouds in the stratosphere are actually entirely made of ice. There's a lot of insight to be gained from studying the diagrams if you understand cloud formation.

>>9880053
>>9880059
>b-b-but the phase diagram contains all information in the known universe.

It's really hilarious that you guys are so stupid you don't even know the right diagram to spam.