/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9814352
Atheism retards everything.

>>9814353
Why's that?

>>9814355
They're too busy bending over and sniffing their own farts.

>>9814355
Nihilism

>>9814352
Science progress faster in (post-totalitarian) authoritarian regimes such as South Korea or Russia or China or the ex- communist bloc in Europe.

>>9814374
clean your lab, bucko

>>9814392
>China is post-totalitarian
>equating Russia with South Korea
Never go full retard, anon.

>>9814353
>>9814374
This. Atheists also generally lack imagination.

>>9814409
>>equating Russia with South Korea
You think South Korea is a paradise because of the propaganda and the contrast with North Korea but South Korea is not as good as you think it is. Remember the impeachment of Park Geun-hy (ex president of SK) involving corruption and political scandal.

>>China is post-totalitarian
The " post-totalitarian " was inside brackets

>>9814352
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/

>>9814352

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/

>>9814352
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology

>>9814352
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheist_philosophers

>>9814352

Slower.

>t. citizen of a post-communist nation

>>9814352
which is faster, natural selection or artificial selection?

>>9814353
>Atheism retards everything.
Atheism is the reason why you exist and have free time to post shit in internet, instead of working in the field.

religious worldview is anti-scientific.

>>9814554
>religious worldview is anti-scientific.
was

>>9814554
>falling for such obvious bait
You must be a /pol/tard.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/06/07/intel_uses_russia_military_technologies/

http://csef.ru/en/nauka-i-obshchestvo/306/sovetskie-korni-proczessora-intel-pentium-4912

http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-elbrus-2-a-soviet-era-high-performance-computer/

>>9814554
DING DING DING you've won the supidest comment contest of the day!
Catholic church is the reason knowledge was preserved no to mention things like the fucking scientific method were invented by a monk.
Obviously you prefer meme graphics than actual books.

>>9814561
Was?
How can you believe a religious sect that has the ability to dictate what the religious worldview of the day is?
A pope once decided that cats were satan's fault ->growth in disease carrying rats -> the black plague -> the death of 25 million people.
Another pope decided that he would make contraceptives ok, because he had a divine intervention. That's just fucking absurd.

And hey, I'm not defending atheism, its incredibly depressing to think of the world that way. But if you're gonna be conceited, recognize the irony in your ideas.

>>9814414
>>9814374
>>9814353
citation needed
>>9814393
and my daddy said it does not count

>>9814352
>achieved every major space race milestone except the man on the moon, half a century after overthrowing an agrarian monarchy and starting industrial development from square one
>lost the man on the moon only because of a massive and unprecedented expansion of american public sector research and scientific funding, which otherwise likely would not have taken place, and has been cut back considerably since under the neoliberals
>punishingly difficult university coursework (Shilov as a standard first LA course for science students, etc) sorting out the elite of the elite to go onto great success based on their ability alone, whereas the general trend in American universities since the 60s and especially since '91 has been a dumbing down of courses, an all-out assault on rigor and difficulty, and eventually "inclusiveness," all to serve the needs of profit-driven engineering (etc) firms that don't need especially bright or theoretically competent people, and benefit from shoving as many people through the education pipes as possible to push down "skilled" wages - all amid bootlickers who praise "soft skills," like being super good at hanging out or drinking, over and to the exclusion of any ability to rationally achieve a defined goal better than anyone else

>>9814667
For all the caricatured "equality" horror stories, education in the USSR was actually extremely elitist and meritocratic

We've not actually seen communism in action, only a bastardized version of socialism, but there is evidence suggesting that scientific progress would be faster under communism:

>Spanish revolution
While the country was at war, a revolution of a libertarian-communist character took off in part of the country, after abolishing money and private property -collectivizing the means of production- industry suffered a vast increase in productivity and both the conditions of the workers and the quality of the products increased, new technologies were purchased from other countries, getting even more ahead of the rest of Spain. It didn't last though, as the republic allied with the USSR and massacred the anarchist and trotskyist leaders of the revolution.
>Basic ideas behind communism
In a communist society, a company would not be driven fro profit, as the owner would get as much as any worker according to the amount of work done and their needs. This way, rather than accumulating capital, all of the company's profit would go towards research and development and other investments for the betterment of the company. That is assuming a partially communist society in which money still exists but making money off someone else's work is not allowed.

>>9814352
>Does science and math progress faster or slower in a communist nation?
Yes, it basically destroys people's freedom to do their own projects.

>>9814696
>We've not actually seen communism in action
Because it's childish, retarded and theoretically impossible.

Marxism is on par with scientology.
If you agree with marxism you are basically saying you hate science.

>>9814705
GTFO with your BS

Marxism strives for as much automation as possible

>>9814707
>GTFO with your BS
You're the one advocating for marxism.

>Marxism strives for as much automation as possible
Yet all countries that used adopted marxism turned into poverty ridden shitholes with stagnating science.

Also capitalism strives for as much automation as possible.

Marxists need to be shot dude, face it.

>>9814707
Are you actually a marxist?
What are you doing on the science board?

Go to /x/ or something.

>>9814696
>after abolishing money and private property -collectivizing the means of production- industry suffered a vast increase in productivity
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This is so incredibly fucking wrong, holy shit the delusion.

This area wasn't even anarchist. It was statist as fuck.

>>9814705
First of all, I do not fully agree with Marx, as many of the criticisms already made by people like Bakunin and Kropotkin exposed the inherent problems of Marx's authoritarian ideas.
Second, you're a damn fool who's never picked up a book if you think Marxist ideology is anti-scientific, Marx was one of the first philosophers to not only adopt a completely materialistic view of the world but to apply the scientific method for everything, using it to study history and deduce all of his theory from the social changes encountered in recorded history.
Again, the USSR was such a horror that Marx would have been completely against it. The only revolution that ever got close to Marx's idea of the end of history (i.e. an actual communist state) was the Spanish revolution in 1936, and it's leaders were brutally murdered by stalinists.

>>9814724
>Bakunin and Kropotkin
HOLY SHIT
These people are just as bad.
Kropotkin reads like a child that doesn't understand how the economy works.

>you're a damn fool who's never picked up a book
You people always say this but you constantly get rekt. You've never read any of these books.

>if you think Marxist ideology is anti-scientific
Dialectical materialism is PSEUDOSCIENCE.
It states that all human action is the result of economic forces.
This makes absolutely no sense and completely ignores biological instincts and the brain.

>Marx was one of the first philosophers to not only adopt a completely materialistic view of the world
Yes, he was wrong.

>Again, the USSR was such a horror that Marx would have been completely against it.
Marx himself supported revolutionary violence and a state with total control over the economy which would somehow magically wither away once communism is achieved.
Delusional.

>>9814723
The republic was quite statist, but north of Valencia the revolution abandoned the republic, which adopted more statist ideas looking for the support of the USSR, which was the reason that Largo Caballero's government was taken down to put an ally of the stalinists in control. George Orwell has accurate accounts of what happened, as he stayed in Spain for some time during the war, there are many other historians who recorded this as well.

>>9814730
>but north of Valencia the revolution abandoned the republic
it was still authoritarian and poverty ridden

>>9814710
Not true, i live in Slovenia and it was flourishing under communism, we had our own production of everything, we had great scientists, one of the first nuclear reactors in europe and everybody had a job and could afford vacations and skiing and appartments, even if they were pushing a button in a factory

>>9814712
Lol

>>9814733
>I lived under communism and it was a literal utopia and nobody had to work and there was no breadlines
>just ignore all of the evidence against this

lmao holy shit anon

>>9814733
Marxism is pseudoscience.
It doesn't belong on this board.

>>9814741
EVERYBODY worked anon, are you illiterate?

>>9814745
And no, there were no "breadlines"

Actually the only food missing was bananas. Who gives a damn about bananas?

>>9814745
>EVERYBODY worked anon,
yes, everybody worked for very little

compared with the west which had high living standards and people could actually retire

>>9814747
>And no, there were no "breadlines"
lmao

>>9814747
>>9814745
you do know that Slovenia wasn't even "socialist"
it was state capitalist

lenin abolished socialism because even HE realized it didn't work

>>9814750
>state capitalist
Kek

Prolly why it was called "the socialist republic of Slovenia" and had a dictator

>>9814748
My grandpa worked in a factory and retired at 50 with a very good pension

Why dont you read a little before you shitpost? You do know that socialism has a pension system which is STILL present in our country?

>>9814757
>Kek
holy shit lmao this BRAINLET unironically believes the USSR wasn't meritocratic, didn't have currency, didn't have competing state firms etc

>Prolly why it was called "the socialist republic of Slovenia"
Just like the Democratic people's republic of north korea amirite?

holy shit you're dumb

>>9814758
>My grandpa worked in a factory and retired at 50 with a very good pension
>You do know that socialism has a pension system which is STILL present in our country?
lmao it's basically a welfare system that steals money from the younger generations like social security in the USA.
you're a fool if you think younger people are going to get that money

Imagine being stupid enough to be a socialist.

>>9814762
Slovenia wasnt the USSR, brainlet

>slovenia had capitalism, its 2mil inhabitants and the rest of the world live under an illusion that Yugoslavia was a socialist country

Get lost, its past bedtime

And if you get to live to 95 like my gran, you have 30 years of getting that money back

>>9814352
Yes, since the means of productions are in the hands of the government, it can distribute as much resources to scientific research as it wants
But this system lacks the concept of competition which is a huge catalysator for innovation and increasing efficiency
Because of this technocracy is the superior system

>>9814769
>Slovenia wasnt the USSR
oh yeah I forgot. I don't really give a shit about that part of the world though.
But that only proves my point further.

Yugoslavia was even more state capitalist than USSR was.

They were only slightly higher in living standards than USSR was, but both were shit compared with the west.

>Get lost, its past bedtime
You're literally a brainwashed marxist on a science board.
Go back to /lit/ or /x/.

>And if you get to live to 95 like my gran, you have 30 years of getting that money back
Welfare leech making younger generations poorer.

>>9814776
A free market with massive state investment into basic research is far superior.

Much more resources and tools and these resources and tools get cheaper every year.

>>9814778
You must be a burger by your style of writing

Its depressing to think theres people like you out there

Im actually thinking about never coming to this board again since its composed of stupid IQ threads and anti commie shitposting

>>9814776
>But this system lacks the concept of competition which is a huge catalysator for innovation and increasing efficiency
Innovation almost never comes from competition. It's a good tool for crystallizing already existing technologies but creating new things is financially _dis_incentivized if anything. Look at space exploration. Massive leaps forward while the American government was pouring money in and then when the government lost motivation progress ground to a halt.

>>9814782
>anti commie shitposting
Imagine being so delusional that you are extremely shocked, confused and offended that other people dislike an ideology that enslaves, impoverishes and has killed over 100 million people.

Get the fuck off /sci/.

>>9814785
>Innovation almost never comes from competition.
Nah, businesses innovate like crazy to compete with each other.
Some of this technology comes from public sources yes but a large part comes from the companies themselves.

>>9814781
The problem of free market is the goal of make profit. That goal is anti-scientific.
Non-profitable fields are not studied at all. And even for profitable researches there is a huge gap between finding and implementation, because current tech and investment should pay off first. In other words, it is more profitable to sell old tech than switch to new.

>>9814787
>"no"
great counterargument

>>9814788
>The problem of free market is the goal of make profit. That goal is anti-scientific.
LMAO what the fuck does that even mean?
That's like saying taking a shit is unscientific.

>Non-profitable fields are not studied at all.
Usually this is a good thing because these fields don't improve living standards for consumers. There are exceptions though which is why some public basic research is necessary.

>>9814790
You're wrong though.
Private companies research and innovate a lot.

>>9814792
why don't you provide some examples or reasoning then instead of just saying
>you're wrong
over and over

>>9814793
The computer you're using to sperg out on right now. Developed over decades of private investment. INTEL, IBM, microsoft, apple, etc
inb4 low hanging fruit of ENIAC and other computers like that

>>9814786
>stalin didnt defeat nazis
>capitalism killed nobody
>everybody having a job, eating good food and going on vacation and retiring in their 50s is bad

>>9814792
>Usually this is a good thing because these fields don't improve living standards for consumers.
Sure, renewable energy, alternative fuel vehicle etc. don't improve our living standards.

There are tons of researches and patents that lies on the shelves, because nobody interested in them, because it is not worth it from the point of view of profit.

>>9814795
Tfw computers as we know today were invented in '78 in soviet union and pentium core was eventually made by a soviet scientist who was a sell out and went to live in states

>>9814352
Slower because in a country where where education is widespread communism is next to impossible to establish
Only in cases where the party gained power long before and held onto it like the parasites they are

>>9814796
>>stalin didnt defeat nazis
The soviets were worse than the nazis though lol

>>capitalism killed nobody
>DUDE VOLUNTARY HUMAN INTERACTION KILLED A BAGILLION PEOPLE
>DUDE ALL OF THE HORRIBLE THINGS STATES HAVE DONE THROUGHOUT HISTORY ARE ACTUALLY CAPITALISM'S FAULT
Do you realize why nobody takes you seriously?

>>9814798
>Tfw computers as we know today were invented in '78 in soviet union
No they weren't, holy shit you are a brainlet.
It was the work of countless businesses, decades of research and production.
>a soviet scientist who was a sell out and went to live in states
BASED

>>9814797
>Sure, renewable energy, alternative fuel vehicle etc. don't improve our living standards.
Companies are actually doing that though.
What is your point?

>There are tons of researches and patents that lies on the shelves, because nobody interested in them, because it is not worth it from the point of view of profit.
The problem is the market isn't free enough.
If patents/copyright/IP were abolished then people would be free to research and profit off this.

>>9814796
>literally defending stalin

the only communist nations didn't exist for more than 2 years so not enough data available

God you rocking idiots are everywhere
Why don't you go back to your university socialist clubs and wank over this nonsense
None of you have a clue
t. Lives through communism

>>9814795
Computers have been constantly tied to non-corporate research.
Even if you ignore early research pre and during WWII, nothing in Bell Labs was done with the intent of selling it. Transistors came from there, the C language came from there, UNIX came from there, dozens of other pivotal things all did too.

North Korea is LEADING THE WORLD in science.

CLEARLY socialism works.

Inb4 revisionist/reactionary scum say DPRK isn't socialist.

>>9814806
Yea I love how the freshmen here start sucking the dicks of the little meme states like the Paris commune that existed for like a few months before collapsing as if this is some good example
But we all know the goal of every leftist is to fail "gloriously" because they are into S&M

>>9814809
>Computers have been constantly tied to non-corporate research.
A small portion of the research was non-corporate yes, but you are absolutely delusional if you don't understand the vast majority of the research and development came from private companies like IBM and intel.

>Bell Labs
Low hanging fruit compared to what private companies have advanced in the computers of today.

>>9814811
(((collapsing)))

>>9814807
>t. Lives through communism
t. 20-25 year old American

>>9814810
>NK is leading the world in science because I say so
>here take a look at these complete unbiased communist propaganda articles

How can people be so thick? Like I get the /pol/fags since the ideology makes a point of being mystical and shit but come on

>>9814815
I live in China and spent two years in Vietnam, was born in Russia
Stupid kids infesting this site positing the same tired blatant propaganda and yet having zero knowledge on the subject

>>9814813
IBM has been receiving government money and working on government projects since the 30s.
Intel's primary innovation was funding microprocessors, which again is just an example of taking already existing technology and making it faster nad smaller.

>half a dozen nobel prizes worth of science is "low hanging fruit"
The state of /pol/tards

>>9814602
Pffft, the Catholics drove Europe (the world) into the CHRISTIAN dark ages and brutally repressed all scientific progress before secular atheism. I think we can both agree to be thankful that the ancient wisdom of the Greeks survived in hiding from the church's goons.

>the American state giving funding to science means Communism is good and workable
Jesus Christ the level of cope in this thread

When you centralize economic power, you centralize political power as a result. This is absolutely unavoidable and always creates a parasitic managerial class who's size only grows as things become more complex.
Rustification is an absolute train wreck and not only has resulted in the deaths of millions due to complete ineptitude by the ruling communist elites, but is a symptom of the innate obsession with "revenge" that every communist has. Their entire ideology can be boiled down to revenge porn and destroying those who wronged them. This is also why gay nerds and minorities gravitate towards it so readily since they are so lost in their revenge-porn fantasies.
But either way this thread is filled with petty bourgeoisie and every single one of you would be forces into the fields or thrown into a gulag without question as happened in my country almost exactly.

Science and math progresses fastest under fascism, because unlike communism and capitalism it seeks to elevate humanity rather than simply persist.

>>9814733

>i live in Slovenia and it was flourishing under communism

Total nonsense. I live in Slovakia and it was stagnating under communism. To this day we are only catching up to western Europe thanks to stupid economic policies during socialism.

>>9814441
>>9814443
>>9814445
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause
It's a well-known fact that college is an indoctrination camp for future leftcucks.

>>9814554
You have to be over the age of 18 to post here kiddo.

>>9814899
>It's a well-known fact that college is an indoctrination camp for future leftcucks.
>>>/pol/

>>9814554
yeah, I thought that when I was 16 too.

>>9814986
Not an argument.

>>9814996
Neither is "Hurr Durr college make cuck libtards ha ha XD"

>>9815002
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=college+campus+left
Are you gonna be on the defensive any longer, Mr. Reddit?

>>9815010
>LMGTFY
>Calling me reddit
Nice job /pol/

>>9814696
Stop being a revisionist. The USSR and Mao's China were socialism and they were great. Had the countries been left to develop under capitalism, they'd be Zimbabwe-tier.

>>9814705
>actually believing this

Marxism is scientific.

That said communism will make scientific progression faster as people won't need to worry about working menial jobs to survive until the next day. All necessities are pretty much covered under communism (thanks to automation), there are no countries nor borders, education is free and easily accessible. All of this makes communism the ideal system for scientific progress.

Also for the brainlets that don't know, communism hasn't been tried. The USSR was socialist, the stage previous to communism. Communism is stateless, borderless, classless and without monetarial currency.

>>9814782
It's okay comrade, /sci/ is filled with these kids that have been brainwashed and have no ability to disprove socialism other than repeatedly saying HURR 100 TRILLION DEATHS. They're stupid as fuck and it's ironic considering how they're so obsessed with IQ. Anyone that can't see how socialism/communism is beneficial to human progress honestly should just kill themselves, you waste of human resources. How fucking blind do you have to be to not realize that the world is going to shit right now? And no, it's not the jews, nor the immigrants, nor the blacks. Jesus Christ read a fucking book that isn't for your Economics 101 class. Pro-tip: it's capitalism.

>>9815035

>Marxism is scientific.

please leave /sci/, you dont belong here

>>9814813
Lol you're a delusional.

>>9815069
Nice argument. Go back to /pol/, by the looks of it idiots like you can't grasp the concepts that are being discussed in this thread.

>>9815017
>The USSR and Mao's China were socialism and they were great.

Dumbest thing I ever read. USSR could not compete with capitalist West at all, neither when it comes to science and technology or standard of living. China was a shithole until the 80s when they ditched attempts at socialism and embraced capitalism that would make even an American blush, then proceeded to grow at a high rate, with hundreds of millions lifted out of poverty, and currently is considered global middle class. Just stop posting, you have no idea what you are talking about at all.

>>9815078
Have you got a single fact to back that up? The soviets won every milestone to space except landing on the Moon and the poor in Soviet Russia lived great lives compared to those in the Capitalist West. Yeah sure, there were porky bastards living great lives, but why should they get to live like kings off stolen labour? Furthermore, capitalism is fucking shit for science, almost no major development came from the "free market", the government has develop technology through its massive military budget because it knows capitalists are never going to develop anything important, most so-called "innovators" just buy the patents.

Also, defending China in its current state is ridiculous. Yeah, imperialism in Africa and suicide nets are awesome guys!

>>9815077
>not being completely poisoned by shit ideology means you're a /pol/fag
IMAGINE living like this day to day

>>9815094
No, being completely poisoned by shit ideology is the very DEFINITION of a /pol/fag.

>>9815091

>The soviets won every milestone to space except landing on the Moon

Landing on the Moon was the hardest milestone. Soviets had a head start but they ultimately lost the space race against capitalist West. Also it is not just about space, but science and technology in general. They were somewhat competitive in the 50-60s ifyou squint enough, but then fell way behind the West.

>the poor in Soviet Russia lived great lives compared to those in the Capitalist West.

Wrong, the poor in the West still lived somewhat better. More importantly, middle class in the West lived significantly better than in the Soviet Union.

>Furthermore, capitalism is fucking shit for science, almost no major development came from the "free market"

Total bullshit, scientific and technological development come from both private sector and the government. Huge amount of R&D is done in private organizations all over the capitalist world.

>>9815091

>Also, defending China in its current state is ridiculous. Yeah, imperialism in Africa and suicide nets are awesome guys!

Oh really? China has some issues but it is objectively a very fast developing nation and standards of living are rising considerably. It is predicted to reach the standard of living of Eastern EU in a few decades, and is consistently the highest growing major region in the world for several decades. The results speak for themselves. For fucks sake, you an ignorant one for sure when it comes to economics.

>>9815078
>China's capitalism was a roaring success
>Can't feed themselves because soil, rivers, and coastal waters wrecked by urbanization
>Exporting this around the world
China is the worst parts of ussr(centralized bueracry, planned economy, materialism, censorship, land rapery, cultural degeneracy) and America's(imperialism, economic intervention, capital worship, land rapery, materialism, degeneracy) fuck baby with a sinoautistic hivemind.

>>9815077

The argument is that normative economics can hardly even be considered science, it is more like philosophy. And even if some minority of economists may consider it science, marxism is very much a minority view among modern economic academia, especially when it comes to policy. Not that you would understand these things because obviously you are not in academia yourself.

>>9815119

>Can't feed themselves because soil, rivers, and coastal waters wrecked by urbanization

You are living several decades in the past, lol. China is a global middle class right now, their food security is solid and they are very much concerned with industry, not mere agriculture, and expanding into high tech sectors fueled by domestic consumption.

>China is the worst parts of ussr(centralized bueracry, planned economy, materialism, censorship, land rapery, cultural degeneracy) and America's(imperialism, economic intervention, capital worship, land rapery, materialism, degeneracy) fuck baby with a sinoautistic hivemind.

Sure someone reads senationalized BS on the internet instead of impartial sources. China has issues but the fact is their system demonstrably works well, in fact when it comes to developing nations you will hardly find a better success story than post 1980s China. This is reality, not your ideological BS.

>>9815119

>>Can't feed themselves

China meat consumption per capita

China is producing enough food and in fact there are signs that the population is expected to develop an obesity issue in a few decades..

>>9815119

>China is the worst parts of ussr(centralized bueracry, planned economy

Nowadays over half of Chinese GDP comes from private sphere. State still plays a very important role in the economy but it is not a planned economy. Certainly much less centralized and planned than the USSR was, for example.

>>9815136
>China
>expanding into high tech sectors

>Makes exact copies of American tech
>American commiefags call it innovation

>>9815136
>>9815149
>You are living several decades in the past, lol. China is a global middle class right now, their food security is solid and they are very much concerned with industry, not mere agriculture, and expanding into high tech sectors fueled by domestic consumption.
Brilliant deduction Sherlock, that's exactly what is so fucked up, china cannot feed themselves, they have already exploited there natural resources to the end and rely soley on international trade/fisheries to sustain themselves. China is an ecological nightmare that is spreading across the globe.
Economic growth and development is fucking nothing compared to the hundred million years or so of biological devolpment that is being irreparably destroyed all around the world to feed increasingly urbanized populations. I know damn well about China's commodity market and you obviously aren't aware that everything good on Earth is disappearing to feed such markets. It's very far from sustainable, and feeds of tragedy.
Thinking china is some kind of success story is demented, you dehumanized monster.
>>9815159
I was trying to say economic authority in China is merely in between the worst parts of ussr and the worst parts of USA.

>>9814352
free to pursure higher education in the topic of your choice, without worrying about loans, guranteed job,....
well you tell me.

>>9814352
A
>communist nation
can't exist since communism is about creating a stateless society.

>>9814443
Jews

>>9814811
>the rentier class running capitalist government always subverts and overthrows every society that tries to do without a class of idle rentiers stealing everyone else's labor, in short order
>this is actually a black mark against everyone who wants to keep the product of their own labor - and not the mechanisms of capitalist society - because how well a society resists subversion by the whole industrialized world is a property of its guiding ideology!
>certainly it's not anything like aggregate self-interest of those with the economic power in the given historical context, weighted according to the fraction of control over production, that way of understanding society would be crazy!
>civilizations just, like, clash or something, dude. like orcs vs elves
oh boy

USSR made the first satellite but USA got to the moon. Win-lose

>>9815108
>Soviets had a head start
There was no industry outside Petrograd in 1917. The nation was an agrarian feudal state. They went from miles behind to miles ahead, and faster than even Meiji Japan.
>ultimately lost the space race against capitalist West
Due to a massive and unprecedented expansion of public sector research spending+involvement, which the west underwent in order to avoid embarrassment. The space race was not won by Western market mechanisms but by drawing heavily on the elements of planned economics which were outperforming them.
You probably ought to say "the West that happened to be capitalist" instead, unless you want to say the capitalist government is a natural outgrowth of the capitalists, and lay everything the former does against market mechanisms at the feet of (the aggregate rational self-interest of) the latter - bailouts, imperialism, the welfare state, the endless wars, assaults on democratic rights...
Which would be correct, but that's a Marxist conclusion, so you're supposed to reject it out of hand. Of course, that would mean saying capitalism is not the reason the West got that one "most important" milestone at the end.

>>9814899
>damage control

>>9814565

>>9815035
>Communism is stateless, borderless, classless and without monetarial currency.
So basically it can only exist when everyone without exception decide to share their resources, do whatever work needs to be done and produce whatever needs to be produced to sustain society without being prompted by any kind of demand or authority.
Also we need to assume that resources are infinite and easily available so, lets say, if you wanna do research in nuclear fusion or explore space or do medical research, everything you need will be handed to you and you are gonna have people volunteering to lend you their expertise. Also we need to assume that everything that people are going spend resources on is valuable since there is no free market to determine what get resources invested in and what doesn't.

Yes, i can see that happening any time now.

>>9815684
And i forgot to say. No one can decide to exploit the system. If they do shame on them.

>>9815667
>There was no industry outside Petrograd in 1917
Back to /leftypol/.

>>9815706
Yep, Russian industry sure was shit guys. It's not like it was the biggest factor pressing Imperial Germany to declare war in 1914, nosireee. Don't look at the man behind the curtain.

>>9814724
Is this bait or you really such an indoctrinated cuck?
>First to use purely materialistic world view.
And he was dead wrong along with most things.
What are numbers anon? Can you show me the number one? Not a representative of it like this 1, or 1 car because that is a abstraction of it as well.
1 exists but doesn't exist in material world; how can you use something that doesn't exist?

>>9815709
Nobody produced anything outside of my arbitrary region! Don't listen to those dirty facts! Listen to me!

>>9815716
Russian industry was shit before lenin! HONEST!!!

>>9814821
I'll take the bait.
What did Harvard and Yale start out as? Puritan universities. The choose your own religion took full swing into the SJW commie agendas you see know.
What is the only church that is immune from those agenda? The Catholic one.

>>9814443
Surprising that atheism is more popular than agnosticism, as it requires just as much faith as religion

>tfw atheist communists won the space race

Maybe if you studied harder instead of blaming all your problems on Jews you'd have some accomplishments besides chattel slavery and imperalism, "Christians."

Leftypol got bored of trying to push their shit on /pol/ /g/ and /v/ so they try their bullshit here, pathetic

>>9815738
Yeah it was bait, but I expected you to mention saints and scholastics, not esjaydubbas, Harvard and Yale.
Pleb /pol/tard exposed.

>>9815743
If you are gonna blame him for chattel slavery and imperialism you should also commend him for cars, internet, penicillin, electricity and so on.

>>9814899
There's nothing good for the right wing in fighting for religion just as there's nothing good for the left wing in fighting against nationalism.

>>9815108
>Landing on the Moon was the hardest milestone
And maybe it didn't even happen bro. Since it was never repeated

>>9815754
>cars, internet, penicillin, electricity
Soviet Russia had all of those.

>>9815706
>>9815709
>>9815716
>>9815727
>takes an oversimplified and hyperbolic remark literally
>posts metrics without any comparison to the west or other relevant benchmark to support the claim that the ruskies had a head start on america, which is precisely what was being discussed
Autism. Of course industry -existed- for there to have been a broad-based industrial workers' revolution.
The failure of the Russian liberal-democratic revolution and tsarist Russia's defeat in the Russo-Japanese war both show a qualitative level of industrial backwardness. Either that, or the foreign capital behind portions of this wasn't particularly interested in rule by the local, Russian bourgeoisie or the progress of Russian imperialism. Hmmm.....

>>9815684
Read P. Cockshott's Towards a New Socialism.

>>9815684
>So basically it can only exist when everyone without exception decide to share their resources, do whatever work needs to be done and produce whatever needs to be produced to sustain society without being prompted by any kind of demand or authority
>Also we need to assume that resources are infinite and easily available so, lets say, if you wanna do research in nuclear fusion or explore space or do medical research, everything you need will be handed to you and you are gonna have people volunteering to lend you their expertise
Well, "communism" in the sense being discussed (a state of affairs) is a hypothetical endpoint of history. The specific claim is more like "under hypothetical conditions of advanced development such that 'everyone without exception decide to share their resources, do whatever work needs to be done and produce whatever needs to be produced to sustain society without being prompted by any kind of demand or authority,' THEN the society which remains will no longer contain the fundamental root causes of states, borders, classes (relationships to the means of production, not the number of zeros in your account) and money, and so will not have those things themselves." It's not something which can be "tried" and isn't a collection of policies or strategies for "running" a society. It's a well-defined abstraction which doesn't exist in reality but about which we can make true statements, like perfect competition, or hilbert space.

>>9815881
Marx however meant communism a little differently. He recognized that the basic requirement of civilization is the material production and reproduction of everyday life, which we enter into definite social relations around production to carry out, that these relations are fundamental to the structure of society, and that the progress and course of history result from the tensions implicit in these relations - namely conflicts between the rational self-interest of "owners" and "renters" of the means of production. He observed that every major progression or development, like the liberal-democratic revolutions, were actually the overthrow of a current "owning" class and a conquest of state power by a subservient one, and every such opposed dynamic in the past has been resolved only by the triumph of the latter over the former, or the mutual destruction of the two. By "communism" Marx had meant "whatever historical process turns out to be the ultimate resolution to the modern conflict between those who hold enough capital to subsist entirely off the labor of others, and those who must sell their labor to survive," and "whatever historical condition remains thereafter." Granted those are pretty abstract, but still things about which we can make true statements, with a rigorous framework.
In any sense, Marx said almost nothing about -how a society ought to be run,- merely formulated general laws of history akin to laws of physics and then analyzed the mechanics of capitalism in detail. His major predictions based on the latter - the general tendency of the rate of profit to fall, general tendency of capital to accumulate, and labor theory of value price calculations - have all been empirically confirmed, and in turn imply the instability of capitalism and its future replacement or self-destruction. He didn't for instance argue that higher taxes or more self-sacrifice would serve "the greater good."

>>9815883
What is meant by "scientific socialism" is the Marxist school of thought, which uncovers rigorous universal laws and analyzes history and society in terms of them and which stands counter to "utopian socialism" - which asserts this or that -system- is the best way to run society or best promotes "the greater good," and which heavily relies on a population with certain values and ignores any question of what forces actually move history or shape society in some image. More on that can be found in Engels' Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. It's a very short, easy read that kind of serves as the cliffnotes for Marx's foundations and clears up a lot of entry level misconceptions about Marx. I recommend it for anyone frustrated with the cross-the-board lack of rigor in modern social science, and it's honestly one of the easiest entry points to arguing against Marx in good faith for those who might not be all that familiar with what he really thought.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/index.htm

>>9814414
>Atheists lack imagination
>imply that believing in god requires imagination
>god is an imaginary friend

kek

>>9815821
But it was created/discovered in the west

>>9814417
>Remember the impeachment of Park Geun-hy (ex president of SK) involving corruption and political scandal
Neither impeachments nor corruption and political scandals alone make a state authoritarian.

t. Brazilian

>>9814352
>Does science and math progress faster or slower in a communist nation?
Who knows? Real communism has never been tried. That's the eternal mantra of leftists every time their retarded ideology butchers ten or twenty million innocent people.

>>9815945
>>imply that believing in god requires imagination

Nobody implied that, you projected it.

>atheist "intellectuals"

It's all coming to play, burgerland has already started this by electing their meme president, soon more western nations will also elect meme presidents and we will watch the west decline into another dark age

>>9816060
>Because pretending there are sixty human genders and legalizing pedophilia, bestiality, abortion, and "trans" child genital mutilation has been progress and enlightenment.

>>9815549
>China is unsustainable trust me I know
Ok drumft.

>>9816051

>>9816066
Gb2 Facebook already you old fart, the president is unironically anti-vaccine and has already cut a lot of funds going into research etc.

America is on the decline, and things will only get worse from here on out lmao

>>9816072
I disagree. Trump is all about muh economy, muh industry, typical republican stuff. So things are actually going to improve. But at what cost?

>>9815830
Central planning through quantum computation is a meme, stop posting this everytime you lose.

>>9815885
Marx's premises are bad, and his methodology is flawed, so his conclusions are disregardable. Stop posting here and on /lit/, reading you walls of text afreeing with yourself is excruciating.

>>9816075
No it's going to tank, he may be the most retarded Republican to date, he unironically wants China to give up it's low level industry back to America and just let China take up the rest of higher technologies etc.

Well, I'll take some comfort American whores are going to be cheaper in the future

>>9815885 #
Marx's premises are bad, and his methodology is flawed, so his conclusions are disregardable. Stop posting here and on /lit/, reading your walls of text agreeing with yourself is excruciating.

>>9815885 #
Socialism cannot be implemented; the USSR had to mimic the commodity prices of western markets because they could not calculate their own. The same can be said of their technological advances. In the absence of widespread market innovation, most developments occurred on the backs of stolen technology or the groundwork of captured German scientists. A regime that championed Trofim Lysenko ought to be laughed off this board.

>>9814352
Socialism cannot be implemented; the USSR had to mimic the commodity prices of western markets because they could not calculate their own. The same can be said of their technological advances. In the absence of widespread market innovation, most developments occurred on the backs of stolen technology or the groundwork of captured German scientists. A regime that championed Trofim Lysenko ought to be laughed off this board.

>>9815549

>hurr durr Id rather keep Chinese living in poverty than risk some ecological damage

The Chinese send you a hearty fuck you, privileged moron

>>9816103
>A regime that championed Trofim Lysenko ought to be laughed off this board.
This!

>>9815829
>blaming Russia's defeat in 1905 on underindustrialization
Don't comment on things that you don't understand.

>>9814892
note Slovenia and Slovakia are in fact two different countries

>>9814352
Science does thrive under communism just ask Trofim Lysenko and his undebatable theory on genetics. Lysenko was so chad he had anyone put to death who questioned it so they wouldn't waste their time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko

>>9814352

While a free market will from time to time fail to adequately invest in pertinent areas of research; and for reasons regarding social taboos, necessary research may be stigmatised to an extent, these shortcomings are not capable of completely halting progress in a field deemed unacceptable or undesirable to conduct research in, as totalitarian states have shown themselves willing to do historically.

>>9816082
>Marx's premises are bad, and his methodology is flawed, so his conclusions are disregardable.
Would you like to make an argument?
And if you have a handle on the theory, doesn't it bother you that the overwhelming majority of people who consider themselves experts on "why Marx was wrong" don't have a clue what he actually claimed, how he argued these claims, or what the most basic concepts of his theory are? If you care about the truth behind your position, you should cringe at least as hard as me at all the bad faith from those on your side who don't.
>agreeing with yourself
It's expository writing, not something to be "agreed" with.

>>9816265

*willing and able to implement historically.

>>9816266
If we were to treat all theories with equal validity, and take the time to fully understand all of them, then we would not be able to make headway in fields that actually merit attention. You claim that Marxism is "scientific." Though Marx and Engels might have dressed three volumes of Das Kapital in the veneer of empiricism with some suspect factory data and historical anecdote, their methodology is still reliant on unfalsifiable Hegelian dialectical teleology. Berate falsificationism and fellate Feyerabend all you want, but it is a prerequisite for something to be considered a "science."

>>9816205
>The organism and the conditions required for its life are an inseparable unity. Different living bodies require different environmental conditions for their development. By studying these requirements we come to know the qualitative features of the nature of organisms, the qualitative features of heredity. Heredity is the property of a living body to require definite conditions for its life and development and to respond in a definite way to various conditions.
Was he wrong?

When we talk about genetics in 1st half of 20th century, we need to understand that we are talking not about genes and DNA (they were not discovered yet!), but about dogmatic, idealistic philosophy.
>WEISMANNISM followed by Mendelism-Morganism, which made its appearance at the beginning of this century, was primarily directed against the materialist foundations of Darwin's theory of evolution.
>Weismann named his conception Neo-Darwinism, but, in fact, it was a complete denial of the materialist aspects of Darwinism. It insinuated idealism and metaphysics into biology.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/lysenko/works/1940s/report.htm

These genetics denied darwinism. With this Lysenko argued. And He was right, and these "morganists" were wrong. End of story.

>>9816266
If we were to treat all theories with equal validity, and take the time to fully understand all of them, then we would not be able to make headway in fields that actually merit attention. Bear no mistake, Marxist theory is a byzantine mess of obscure language and antiquated terminology and perspective that occupies a preponderance of attention even to offer a rebuttal that is to the standard of your average leftypol or reddit "scholar." It is a consumptive disease that crowds out all other thought. You claim that Marxism is "scientific." Though Marx and Engels might have dressed three volumes of Das Kapital in the veneer of empiricism with some suspect factory data and historical anecdote, their methodology is still reliant on unfalsifiable Hegelian dialectical teleology. Berate falsificationism and fellate Feyerabend all you want, but it is a prerequisite for something to be considered a "science."

>>9816294
>inb4 muh epigenetics vindicate Lamarck
There is no level of apologia too base for a devout Stalinist. From Lysenko to Gould, any attempts to apply dialectics to an indeterministic, pluralistic field of study like evolutionary biology results in a dead-end that can only be revitalized through endless epicycling of theory.

>>9816294
This wankery is retarded on so many levels. Trying to argue shit like the field of genetics being "bourgeois" or Mendelian inheritance being idealist should clue you in on this guy being a political pawn.

>>9814352
You can't progress science when you can't eat.

>>9816295
>Berate falsificationism and fellate Feyerabend all you want, but it is a prerequisite for something to be considered a "science."
It's well-known Popper intended his falsificationism as an ideological begging-the-question against Marxism. It's certainly the mother of all heavy artillery, too, because you'd be throwing out the baby (economics, sociology, psychology, and the social sciences in general) with the bathwater (Marx.) It doesn't really match up with the realities of science's day to day practice, either
Given all that, you could -still- easily falsify historical materialism by just finding some mismatched set of social and economic conditions that persist for an extended period of time.
>their methodology is still reliant on unfalsifiable Hegelian dialectical teleology
Could you elaborate a little and be more precise? For the only other part of your post that isn't pure polemic, I was expecting a more fully fleshed out claim, not a vague thematic insinuation

>>9816328
A proper science is a field of study in which a sufficient number of variables can be isolated for the the purpose of characterizing related phenomena, and as such falsificationism is the only method that allows for consistent comparison between theoretical interpretations of these variable-controlled data sets. While other fields of study might prove valuable to academic understanding, they are not sciences. Marx's failure to meet these criteria is what renders his theory "unscientific." We can discuss why it is "unvaluable" beyond this, but again, it is a waste of everyone else's time.
>Could you elaborate a little and be more precise?
Grafting materialism onto Hegelian dialectics does not render it a usable methodology. Hegel presumes conclusions in defining his premises, and this tendency is still evident in Marx's writing, especially in Vol. 3. Just substitute "transformed economic relations" for the Prussian State as the "inevitable" end-state that everything else in Marx's ad-hoc theory serves to predict.

>>9815017
Then why were western capitalist nations so advanced?

lmao why are commie so fucking braindead

>>9815035
>Marxism is scientific.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

How is DENYING EVOLUTION AND HUMAN BIOLOGICAL INSTINCTS scientific?

>>9815091
>there were porky bastards living great lives
lmao the AVERAGE CITIZEN in capitalist nations back then were "porkys"
No, they were much more successful and well off because communism is an absolute failure.

>apitalism is fucking shit for science, almost no major development came from the "free market"
The vast majority of investments came from the free market you gigantic brainlet.

>>9814820
>which again is just an example of taking already existing technology and making it faster nad smaller.
LMAO AHAHAHA
Do you know how easy it is to think of an idea and make a small proof of concept implementation of it(government research) vs innovating the living shit out of it and advancing it to it's current state(private companies)?

>>9815883
>>9815885
None of this is scientific.
It's pseudoscience.

It denies human biological instincts and claims all human action is the result of economic forces.

It's literally on par with scientology or flat earth theories.

>>9815743
Why do communists literally want to be enslaved?

lol imagine being this much of a cuck

>>9816348
Braindead marxists unironically believe that communism is "inevitable".

It was already tried and it failed miserably.

>>9816348
>science is a field of study in which a sufficient number of variables can be isolated for the the purpose of characterizing related phenomena
Kek
>the genuinely materialist ontology of man as a social being is flawed, because Hegel or something, and no, I can't give you precise examples where the argument structure breaks down
Fine, whatever

>>9816371
>claims all human action is the result of economic forces.
No, it doesn't.

>>9816383
>No, it doesn't.
Yes, you gigantic brainlet, it does.
Marxists claim that human action is dependent on the prevailing economic ideology of the time.
If marx didn't believe this then communism is impossible because you couldn't magically change everyone's brains to be communists, people will break off from the ideology once realizing how stupid it is and their greed instincts kick in.

Also marx had no idea about human biological instincts/human nature.

>>9816383
Also it's funny that marxists claim a wide variety of CONTRADICTORY THINGS when debating them.
One will say one thing, one will say another.

>>9815035
>Marxism is scientific.

>>9816070
>not believing in spiderman

>>9816303
That's because you too stupid to understand it.
It's not about particular hypothesis, all theories are just approximations of reality, after all. And they all contains mistakes.
It's about philosophy of science and deeper understanding of processes.
You can't separate organism from environment. It's a single process.

This separation of a single process into many abstract entities is called "metaphysics" in materialism. By doing so, you ignore all causes associated with this process. You already include an error in a foundation of your theory, because you ignore all real causes and try to find non-real, idealistic causes.
For example, we separated an idea of "intelligence" from cognitive processes, and now we try to find non-materialistic causes (because all materialistic causes we threw away) of this "intelligence" by doing useless IQ measurements and statistics.

>>9816383
If you can't see how circular a dialectical methodology must be, then I don't know what more to say to you.

>>9816388
>Marxists claim that human action is dependent on the prevailing economic ideology of the time.
Yes, economic -conditions- including how production is coordinated. Not ideology.
And you take that to mean "is completely determined by"? That's an entry-level strawman.
>because you couldn't magically change everyone's brains to be communists, people will break off from the ideology once realizing how stupid it is and their greed instincts kick in.
What do you mean, "change eveyone's brains to be communists"? Marx: 1) didn't advocate any specific way of running things or set of policies 2) didn't think that ideology or value systems are the motive force of history or that ideologically investing everyone in X is a necessary or sufficient condition to have and maintain X, and 3) would be the first to tell you that people respond to incentives and that asking everyone to freely share everything in a big pile would not work, as he told the utopians of the Paris Commune. See pic related and >>9815881 >>9815883 >>9815885

You're unfamiliar with the bare basics of Marx. Have you ever read or engaged with any of his actual work? Does it bother you to argue in bad faith, or doesn't it matter because you know it's wrong from the beginning, and damn whatever the actual theory might be?

>>9816390
It's almost as if Marxism is a broad intellectual tendency with room for individual disagreement and debate, like literally every other intellectual tradition that has ever existed. Ask a group of libertarians whether a boss demanding sex if a worker wants to keep her job counts as coercion, and you'll hear quite a diversity of opinion.

>>9816410
Get back to me when you can turn wheat into an oak tree.

>>9816427
How does this respond to what he said?

>>9816426
>In the social production of their life, men enter into definite relations that are indispensable and independent of their will, relations of production which correspond to a definite stage of development of their material productive forces. The sum total of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which rises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness.
>t. Karl Marx
If this isn't economic determinism, then I don't know what is.

>>9816432
He's advocating for Lysenkoism. Lysenko used the same premises regarding the dialectical synthesis of environment and organism to postulate all kinds of crazy shit.