/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9772433
>Admittedly a mental disorder.
>Trying to alter the body to accommodate the mental disorder, rather than trying to repair the disorder directly.

>>9772502

It's not a mental disorder since the APA added an arbitrary stipulation on the definition of a mental disorder

>>9772502
That's actually something I've wondered a lot about.
There's not a lot of information on how many MtF vs. FtM there are, but I think it's mostly MtF.
Part of gender dysphoria's diagnosis is testing for low testosterone.
Which begs the question, "Why not just give out steroids?"
I'd assume there are health problems associated with doing that.
Then again, is it worse than lifelong estrogen supplementation?
Any psych majors here?

>>9772433
of course it's real. chromosomal abnormalities are real. behavioral genetics is real. mental disorders are real.
>>9772502
what's a disorder?

>go to doctor
>tell him you feel you are actually a cripple
>ask him to break your legs for you
>get sent to psych counseling

>go to doctor
>tell him you feel you are actually a woman
>ask him to cut your penis off
>right this way sir

>>9772525
low testosterone isnt used for gender dysphoria diagnoses, and giving testosterone to gender dysphoric people has been tried

>>9772527
they are voluntarily taking themselves out of the gene pool though
what is your problem with this

>>9772534
They're doing it to kids.

>>9772533
sauce?
I've had a professional therapist tell me this,
(which makes me question a lot of her advice.)

>>9772537
On the bright side, they'll be very passable traps as adults.

>>9772537
well that I think many people have a problem with
although I should note that's nothing new: for decades at least the policy with hermaphrodite babies is to surgically "select" if possible

>>9772527
Yeah I fail to see the logic here.

You aren't allowed to say this but a lot of modern transgenderism is just bandwagoning from idiots who want to belong to something. "SJW"-types seem determined to manipulate reality to make this more and more of a thing without caring what lives they destroy in the process.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/08/transgender-teens-parents-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-doctors/

>>9772542
They'll be dead by their own hands. That's how this ends. I have empathy for them because reality will not be denied and when they are confronted with it finally it kills them.

>>9772545
That's different than trans, though.

>>9772516
I love how the APA is so shit that they just change everything to make people happy.

>>9772550
>different from trans
I'm not up on the lingo but I'm pretty sure some of the people claiming to experience gender dysphoria have discovered they were born as hermaphrodites

>>9772550
but btw I do agree that what's happening today is much worse in degree, this kind of bullshit should never be encouraged in children

>>9772549
How do you not see the logic? Both parties think they are something they're not, one gets sent for psychiatric help, the other one is treated as if it's completely normal, nothing to see here.

>>9772537
kids can get puberty blockers around 11-12, then estrogen in a couple years if they still want to, and then surgery 18+

>>9772539
i believe trying to treat with testosterone was done by Harry Benjamin, but I don't have a source atm

>>9772554

You might be referring to one famous case study

I forgot the name of it but I know what you're talking about anyway

There was one case where someone lost his penis during a circumcision as a baby and they gave him a sex change OP and they tried to raise him as a girl and it didn't work

>>9772552
Yeah. Having institutes like that hijacked by left wing virtue signalers is incredibly damaging as well, since the mentally ill people seize on those pronouncements and use them as justification for why their desire to cut their dick off and have a vagina installed should be acquiesced to. Feels like we've lost the ability to tell people painful truths as a society. The cult of tolerance means if you make someone feel distressed by telling someone their autogynephilia is a phase they'll grow out of then you're guilty of thoughtcrime

>>9772554
That's a really small minority though. Estimated prevalence is approximately 1/20,000 births. I think the trans surge you're seeing today has more to do with the autism spectrum.

Simon Baron Cohen is studying it

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-between-autism-and-trans-identity/507509/

>>9772564
David Reimer

>>9772554
I can see how a hermaphrodite would have gender dysphoria, but it's not required by definition.

>>9772558
My only concern is that the child doesn't have gender dysphoria, and is being a kid.
You're letting underage people make sexual decisions for themselves.

>>9772559
It's an oversimplification.
People think it's in the brain.

>>9772560
I'll look that up.
On a side note, Hairy Benjamin is the new name for my genitals.

>>9772572
a lot of the old old stuff about transsexuals is his work that's not really accepted anymore

>>9772570
I really doubt he had gender dysphoria.
Kind of depressing.

>>9772572
>You're letting underage people make sexual decisions for themselves
Not even underaged. Kids as young as 8. I could understand if a 16 year old started having those feelings, as that is the age where your sexuality starts to galvanize, but when an 8 year old is "trans" it's really the parents just projecting bullshit onto them.

>>9772552

Most social sciences are dead fields now, even some of the hardcore psychologists of past like Zimbardo are conforming to modern "PC" type culture

I think the language used is purposely obfuscated to manipulate public opinion

>>9772577
well he had gender dysphoria from being forced to grow up as a girl

>>9772577

I don't think he did

He was born male, he considered himself as male but they tried to trick him into thinking he was female

>>9772584
You know what I mean.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>9772569
yeah it's a tiny minority, but the question was
>is transgenderism real?
and my answer is yes
bandwagonning etc. are serious problems obviously, but I do feel like we as a society should in some way come to terms with these outliers and create a social structure where we can treat them as human beings -- the increase in awareness and tolerance of these things is I think positive

>>9772502
thats not as fun

>>9772569

I am interested in the subject of transgendered people I never considered a link to autism

I always thought the modern surge was due to pop culture eroding the differences between male and female from a young age and maybe some link to porn addiction

>>9772590
I think we'd be better served trying to address the underlying causes that are making these people go off the deep end and try to become the opposite gender because they're unhappy with their lives.

>>9772590

I also think it's "real" but I think in most cases it's a temporary state of confusion which can be reversed

Unless you're dealing with a full blown homo

I think there's a homo type and a confused/disturbed type, the latter being the cause of the recent surface

>>9772593
It shouldnt surprise you given that the most autistic hobby is packed to the brim with transgender guys

>>9772598
>Unless you're dealing with a full blown homo
C'mon man.
Don't turn this into one of those threads.

>>9772595
well some of isn't that, is my point. some of it is a legitimate biological fact that, barring gene therapy (and all the ethical considerations involved) we can only ever suppress.
but to be clear, I don't think most of the people getting surgery hormone treatment etc. should be

>>9772598

recent surge* not surface

>>9772600

Can you elaborate? I have no idea what you're referring to

>>9772599
well I mean you might reasonably expect sexual dysmorphics to be drawn to a hobby where the ill-fitting fit in. that doesn't really prove one thing or the other.

>>9772590
Oh I'm not suggesting we shun them. They should receive the same inherent respect as anyone else. Being born with both genitals must be really hard.

We should however never for one second normalize the belief that you can be both genders in the same head, because for 20,000 people to every one hermaphrodite, this is simply not the case

>>9772599

>hobby
Are you talking about gaming?

>>9772598
There are very distinct groups, the older married with kids type and the younger (teens) that were basically gay stereotypes

>>9772569
I'd be curious if it's also linked to increased selection pressure
and maybe to porn

>>9772607
Speed running specifically. Where you sit for hours on end trying to complete games a fractional second faster than someone else. One wrong button press even 3 hours in can spell disaster. Takes high levels of autism to excel at.

Lots of trans people there for some reason.

>>9772609

Yes, I'm familiar with the older type

>>9772613

I am not actually aware of these people, I'm not much of a gamer but I will take a look into it

>>9772606
well I don't know if I could be so categorical. "conventional" western gender roles are pretty fucked up too, and may be what's driving many people to jump on the tranny bandwagon. I can see an argument for at least a conversation about the psychology of these things.

>>9772623
>"conventional" western gender roles are pretty fucked up too
Are they?

Or are they born from biology suggesting itself?

>>9772623

There is also a question of why it's mainly MtF transgender

>>9772627

>Are they?

I don't even consider it debatable anymore, they are definitely fucked up

>Or are they born from biology suggesting itself?

What do you mean by that

>>9772628
How often are tomboys bullied? It's pretty normal for women to dress in more masculine clothes or even have short hair now, but a feminine guy is totally unaccepted

>>9772627
I don't think total biological determinism is tenable here, really. there are documented matriarchal societies and there features of western culture where we have historical documentation that they were created by PR campaigns. I think the conventional dynamic is getting increasingly exaggerated, too (e.g. "conventional" men are getting more macho)

>>9772631
>they are definitely fucked up
How are they fucked up? Do you buy into the perception that men have been women's oppressors for millennia? Do you view the domestic workload to be insulting? Do you think men are enslaved by their masculine urges? Do you think women's liberation has succeeded in its initial goal or are they now enslaved to something else?

>What do you mean by that

I'm suggesting that perhaps the popular view is backwards. Instead of human society enforcing roles onto people, maybe the people, and our biological coding, etch the roles onto society. Maybe men, being inherently different from women, seek out different life paths. Maybe you can look to the animal kingdom to wisdom about our own social structures and how they originated.

>>9772642
tomboys are ruthlessly bullied
women are even worse about it than men, from what I've heard
the difference is maybe that tomboys get laid

>>9772649
>>9772642
I really don't think it's a contest.
There are biosocial mechanisms at play that make you depressed if your sexuality is messed up.

>>9772433
Brain is computer. Computer computes. If the peripherals don't match the CPU what do you change? How do you make computer effectively compute?
What is ethical?
"Mutilation" of mind and self to fit social perimeters? Is society right as it is, or is there room for growth?
Or self inflicted bodily "mutilation" for the self image to fit in the perimeters of society? Can one truly know what's right for them in societal context?
It's a puzzle that if solved could have massive implications on the well being of self and identity within society.
>What do I think about transgender people?
As someone who considers themselves trans, the jury's out on this one. The trans person to me is like the eternal question of who am I and what am I doing here? Go with the flow? carve my own path? How? It's a perpetual mind-fuck because it feels there's no "right" "reality" to settle on.
>is transgenderism real?
It's as real as any other "trifling" matter humanity goes through. Bio organisms seeking homeostasis whipping around at absurd speeds through the cosmos... specks on a windshield, man...

>>9772644
>features of western culture where we have historical documentation that they were created by PR campaigns
Major aspects? That seems more of something that could change a local or even national culture to a degree, but the overall pillars of society in regards to man and woman's interactions seems pretty hardcoded.

>>9772568
'I hate how these 'physicists' are hijacking scientific journals with their ideas about how the earth isn't center of the universe!'

Don't misconstrue the changing of definitions (which satisfy a criteria based on empirical observations, models, scales to the best of our knowledge - better than nothing) as political agendas. It's fine to be skeptical, intact eveyone here should encourage that. However if you want to dismiss or argue contrary to something, provide a more concise and better theory.

We will all be waiting in anticipation.

>>9772712

Look up what they're talking about regarding the APA

There is obviously a political agenda

>>9772712

None of what you say seems relevant to the topic

Emperical evidence is void in social sciences

>>9772721
I've looked it up. Which part makes you think it has a political agenda? The part where coarse grained theory maps correctly onto comprehensive theory?

>>9772726
This is biology and it being further interpreted by psychology.

Not long ago depression and suicide were seen as 'political agendas' and 'academic excuses for soft cunts'. That is simply not the case.

Is there bias and epistemological problems with certain social sciences? Absolutely.

Is transgender one of them? Not in this context given the information we have gained from predictive and empirical studies.

Be a good baysean

>>9772727

No the part where they say being transgender is not a mental disorder because it doesn't cause significant stress (which is debatable anyway)

A stipulation they added to obfuscate the meaning of mental disorder

>>9772433

How do you disarm and take over an entire country without a single bullet fired?

Take away their ability and desire to fight. 1. Feminize the male population through multiple vectors such as environmental, agricultural, social media and medicine. 2. Take away their weapons.

Welcome to the New World Order. A government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations.

>>9772727

You don't make any sense. It's like you're responding to the wrong thread

Are you trying to be funny or are you just autistic?

>>9772733

>Not in this context given the information we have gained from predictive and empirical studies

Like what?

>>9772737
But they are right. Yes of course alot of transgender people suffer from mental illness associated with exclusion, bullying, lack of inclusiveness. However there are transgender people who not only feel much happier with themselves after transition or acceptance for example, but Trans people who never were under significant stress in the first place.

Again, it's not just about interpreting data, but finding reliable evidence. The results in regards to 'happiness' will be totally different if you say, collect sample sizes from cultures that have little to no aversion to transgender people.

On an interesting, but related note - check let the WEIRD studies done. Definately am accurate criticism to make of psychology results and journal papers which will put into perspective why such claims about things should be taken skeptically without looking at the evidence holistically (not in a moon crystal astrology sense).

>>9772754

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

>>9772433
Mental illness is real.

>>9772525
It’s been tried and it failed

>>9772663
it's interesting to know if one sex has stronger reinforcement
>>9772672
the problem with this logic is sexual roles have changed significantly on evolutionary scales -- man transitioned from a hunter-gatherer to agrarian lifestyle. if these roles are hard-coded, they are fundamentally inconsistent with existence over the last 100,000 years. Besides, the very fact that a man is able to make the decision to cut his penis off demonstrates that they are NOT hard-coded (immutable)

>>9772502
>Trying to alter the body to accommodate the mental disorder, rather than trying to repair the disorder directly.
Medication and therapy to try and bring self-image in line with body physiology have been tried, and have generally not worked. At this point, the only effective treatment seems to be transitioning.

>>9772599
>putting Bailey Jay adjacent to Chris-chan

>>9772433
It's either a fad or a mental illness. Can't see how the best treatment would be transition to your "perceived sex" when that's impossible to its fullest extent. Wouldn't it be easier to introduce the lacking steriods, testosterone for MtF and estrogen for FtM and maybe give them therapy to have them perceive themselves as their actual sex?

>>9772564
I would assume there are many cases like this where the wrong genitals are removed. If so, I think they have a strong case of gender dysphoria than the SJW types.

>>9772502
People modify their bodies and environments in thousands of ways that arent considered symptomatic of mental illness. EG Dieting and fitness, cosmetic surgery, fashion sense, taste in food and drink, intellectual interest. What defines a mental illness is the symptoms falling too far away from what is generally considered "normal", that distance is arbitrary and constantly changing. People with gender dysphoria should seek therapy and council prior to electing for surgery, but shouldnt be persecuted or denied treatment.

>>9772568
>should be acquiesced to
Yeah because you or anyone else should be able to determine someones freedom of choice over their own body. What am I saying though plenty of americans still want to ban abortion despite every metric supporting it.

>>9772598
>I also think it's "real" but I think in most cases it's a temporary state of confusion which can be reversed
What kind of retard pulls shit out of their ass and formulates it as an opinion and then has the audacity to present it to other adults.

>>9772646
>Do you buy into the perception that men have been women's oppressors for millennia?
This isnt something you buy into. Its demonstrable fact over thousands of years. In any social system the most powerful group suppresses the weaker groups to solidify their own power.

>>9773365
every metric also supports the segregation of the races, but that's violation of our constitutional rights.

and abortion is murder, but if the light of the moon doth not shine upon the wet brow of a newborn babe, it is not "alive" and thus not murdered, no?

>>9773371

I don't see how that's controversial

>>9772537
>[citation needed]

>>9772564
>>9772890
>>9772570
>>9772577
>>9772585
>>9772584
Circumcision is disgusting.

>brain scans
>CT system

they couldn't even be assed to get a picture of an MRI for this article

>>9772564
There are people whose gender is not obvious even when born, doctors or parents usually decide what they "are" going by "what fits more"

>>9772433
so basically there are structural differences in people who are mental?

>>9773365
>you or anyone else should be able to determine someones freedom of choice over their own body
A mentally ill patient wants to cut off their own limbs. As a doctor, do you order the surgery?

>muh bortion
You kikes are as predictable as you are tiresome.

>>9772569
Autistic people can be desperate to fit in. When they fail to fit in with their own gender, they sometimes try to blend in with the opposite one. When this too fails, they usually just give up on the idea. Nowdays the trans-craze fools them into thinking that the problem lies within their physical features instead of their social skills.
In general, autistic people don't experience identity very strongly. This makes me believe that the increased likelyhood of being trans is caused by confusion rather than biology.

>>9773365

>despite every metric supporting it

Like what?

>>9773722

You can google it and find what he said to be true within seconds

>>9772433
On many online vidyagaems it is surprising how many men choose a female avatar, even in VR chat they still choose woman. I wonder if there is a correlation between this and transgenderism as in not being to obtain your desire so instead you become it.

>>9772644
>from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy#History_and_distribution
Most anthropologists hold that there are no known societies that are unambiguously matriarchal.[58][59][60] According to J. M. Adovasio, Olga Soffer, and Jake Page, no true matriarchy is known actually to have existed.[54]

>historical documentation that they were created by PR campaigns
Would love to hear some examples.

>>9773932
As I said, people should always seek psychological therapy prior to drastic decisions however if they are dead set on it and can find a qualified surgeon who will perform the surgery in safe conditions, go to town.
Personal liberty is more important than what someone else considers normal, particularly when what is considered normal is arbitrary and mutable. I dont know why would think I am jewish because I drew a parallel to abortion.
>>9773971
I'm not going to do your research for you but start here and then go through the sources and off to your own findings.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26433508

>>9774264
>people should always seek psychological therapy prior to drastic decisions however if they are dead set on it and can find a qualified surgeon who will perform the surgery in safe conditions, go to town
to get surgery you need 2 referrals from certified psychologists anyways and be on hrt and living as the gender you identify with for a number of years. getting hrt also generally requires a recommendation from a psychologist.
the myth of just going to a doctor/surgeon and expecting them to do whatever you want is stupid

>>9773722
Replies like this really make me question everything about this website. How is it possible to grow up, go through school, learn to type and browse internet and then navigate to 4chan science & math board of all places and at no point in your life be exposed to non-cisgender children or a news item about such person/family.

Seems real to me since we're talking about it.
Although they can't pretend to be treated like non-transgenders.
Every time you want to row against biology you can't expect immediate acceptance.

>>9774264

I don't interpret what you linked as a reason to legalize abortion

>>9772754
>Yes of course alot of transgender people suffer from mental illness associated with exclusion, bullying, lack of inclusiveness
No, the source of their mental illness isn't "We're just not being accepting enough!". That's utter bullshit along the same vein as the solution to Islamic radicalism is just to make them feel more welcome. They have mental illness no matter how they're treated, the fact they want to swap gender comes from their mental illness and all other negative effects stem from that. The solution isn't to allow them to mutilate themselves, the suicide rates post transition bear that fact out quite obviously, the solution is to get them psychological help and fix up our hyper individualistic culture where people are supposed to turn a blind eye to people doing this shit as long as "it doesn't harm anyone else". It harms them, that's enough to put a stop to it

>>9772433
Yes, these people are genuinely the gender they identify as.
This debate was settled like 20 years ago, the only people who think there's still a debate are retarded bigots who ignore evidence.

>>9774058
the debeers diamond campaigns are one thing I was thinking of. but boys and girls toys have been heavily advertised for generations at this point, and these campaigns have made a definite cultural impact. This is not to exclude ANY possibility of a biological component of course -- my only argument was that TOTAL biological determinism is untenable
>no unambiguously matriarchal society
however if you go on to read the actual article it lists a bunch of societies that fit into a broad interpretation of the word. woman as the head of the family, in particular.

>>9772433
Am I black just because I identify as African american regardless of genetic makeup

>>9774564
>study finds measurable differences using actual techniques
>equate this to something with no scientific basis
back to /pol/

>>9774578
So you telling me trans people have some sort of x-y hybrid chromosome

>>9774583
no, it says in some areas of the brain there are differences between their brain and other individuals of their sex that dont have gender dysphoria, and similarities to the brains of the sex they identify with

>>9774585
No research however has been done onto wether or not it's cause or effect.
Anyway genes determine sex not brain chemistry

any man who voluntarily cuts his dick off in good physical health should be killed

>>9774585

could I have race dysphoria

>>9774597

I agree

>>9772502
some people with other types of body dysphoria feel the need to get tattoos and piercings, and it can help their symptoms, and psychologists usually say that as long as it doesn't affect their physical health it's fine for them to get all the holes punched in them they want
on the other hand, body dysphoria where someone is so ashamed of their weight they want to give up eating is considered serious enough to take away much of their freedom of movement and communication
I'd say being trans falls somewhere between those but closer to "let them do what they want", because the physical treatments may be distasteful to some people and even painful, but they don't really risk anyone's life; the biggest problem is how hard they are (often impossible) to reverse

>>9774583
some probably do
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome

>>9772433
>Is transgenderism real
Yes mental illness has been diagnosed for a while now

>>9772533
Anti psychotics have been shown to work on some though

>>9774585
So what? That could easily just be interpreted as a mental illness, and you brain structure can change as you age.

>>9774050
Men are vile creatures. It's no surprise that young people wouldn't identify with them. the female sexuality is pretty god tier. estrogen really works wonders for body and soul and not everyone is a breeder. being female compliments a hedonistic lifestyle which a lot of young males have grown accustomed to. also it drive cis girls crazy.

>>9772433
Doc prescribes hormones. whatever med it is. doc weighs pros cons. if the person would be better off with the med then he'll prescribe it. some people are incredibly wayward and HRT can work wonders. although I do admit can be quite dangerous

>>9774652
this is where a lot of this comes from, we as a culture uphold feminine beauty as the highest form of beauty, well above male beauty and far above anything else, the only thing that could probably come close is baby animals
it skews our perception of what makes a good drawing or painting or statue, it skews advertising, it skews our view of male beauty, it even skews our priorities on a broader scale
and I don't think there's any way to fix it

Been on hrt over 5 years, I'm the happiest I've ever been.

>>9772712
>'I hate how these 'physicists' are hijacking scientific journals with their ideas about how the earth isn't center of the universe!'
Is this the current year argument in disguise?

>>9774842

I think it's a brainlet trying to make jokes

>>9772516
You cannot be transgender without body dysmorphia. Body dysmorphia is a mental disorder. End of. Also, the APA doesn't control what is and isn't considered disorders.

>>9774493
Which article would that be? Because the segment I quoted included 4 sources, I can't find anything like that.

>debeers diamond campaigns
1: that's not a fundamental part of society, that's diamond purchases.
2: What about before that? That only happened in the 20th century. traditional gender roles are older than that, methinks. This also goes for the toys.
3: It's not a world thing, it's mainly a US thing. Not everyone buys diamond rings for engagements. Not even close.

>Toys
Has been tested and you're wrong.
https://www.city.ac.uk/news/2016/july/infants-prefer-toys-typed-to-their-gender,-says-study
Even infants where boys and girls were treated the same prefer gender targeted toys.

You're either trolling or you're deep in denial.

>>9772746
>>>/pol/

>>9772502
This.

>>9774855

Obviously.. I agree with you, I was mocking the APA

hence "arbitrary stipulation"

>>9774662
It is strange since ancient Greeks used to take pride in the male beauty, illustrated through their statues.

>>9774902
That's interesting. Reminds me of the slatestarcodex survey which found that, like schizophrenics and autists, trans persons were less likely to be susceptible to a particular optical illusion.

>>9772433
Psychologist here. It's a real mental illness but it gets a pass because it's progressive

>>9772433
The aut-right war against trans people is the direct result of them losing the War on Gays. Unable to attack gay people politically, they have shifted to trans people as a proxy target to continue the same undercurrent of hate that rightist politicians capitalized on for political gain.

>>9774949

Hey look a normie

>>9772502
if we could repair disorders directly, Manic-Depressive Disorder, Major Depression and PMDD would all have been cured.

>>9774902
>pimozide
like why even have opinions on something you aren't willing to do the barest of research into?
like just google that shit

>>9774629
This I find interesting but haven’t seen much evidence for.

>>9774881
you clearly still do not understand the simple point that I was making. if you re-read my posts carefully you might succeed.

>>9775061
I don't care what you want to pretend your original point was. When you were questioned for your rationale, you were either plain wrong or straight up lying. Just admit it. It's less shameful than continuing to pretend you were right.

Otherwise, just refute my points, instead of trying to talk down to me.

>>9772433
I realized homos were legit when I realized that there are so many of them, and they all more or less had the same experience growing up, w regards to their sexuality. And of course, there's millions of historical examples - we've always, always had gays.

Same with transistors. There's a lot of them, and they all seem to be saying the same thing.
>be boy
>think you're a girl

Having never thought anything similar, the passion with which they think such things, and the number of people who share the same thoughts, makes me think that they are, in fact, pretty legit. They LEGITIMATELY want to see themselves as female, they want others to see themselves as female, and they hate that they are male.
It's actually quite trippy to be honest.

>>9774944
which optical illusion?

>>9774935
they did, right up until they decided female beauty was preferable, and of course the Romans copied them, and Renaissance artists tended to copy the Romans; I'm not sure how much of that influenced our current culture though

>>9774902
The paper published was a case study of a single individual.

>>9772502
fpbp

>>9775243
The condition having existed for a long time does not make it acceptable to rule it out as a mental illness.
Mental illnesses, themselves having existed for all of recorded history, often share similar characteristics, like schizophrenics being deluded, hallucinating and being outcast.
Saying something is a healthy behavior simply because it has been consistent is just silly.

>>9773361
Im not sure how you would classify dieting and exercise as body modification. Both of those things are necessary for sustaining life. If you choose not to do those things, you are susceptible to lots of terrible diseases.

Competitive bodybuilders, especially today's freakshows, sure. Arnold-era builders did it for aesthetic competition. It was an artform. There were no underlying mental issues.

>>9776478

its a social construct though. the classification of something as a mental illness depends on whether its considered a problem by society but not a crime.

>>9772433
It's clearly a phenomenon that happens in some people

It's also clearly a thing that a lot of people self-diagnose, with horrible consequences in a society that is too accepting

>>9776478
Gender dysphoria is a mental illness/disorder (it even used to be called "Gender Identity Disorder") in the same way that anxiety or depression are. It causes distress and impairs functioning as a normal individual in society. That doesn't change the fact that the best known treatment is transition and can significantly reduce dysphoria. The problem is people use "mental illness" as a slur and imply that they should seek other methods of treatment (antipsychotics, antidepressants...), so trans people tend to reject it.

Just my opinion as a tranny.

>>9772525
>Any psych majors here?

whoa, someone on /sci/ asking for the expertise of a non-STEM degree?

>>9774282
In the civilized word sure, but you absolutely can go to some shithole and pay a quack 3k to cut your dick off no problems. Obviously you cant stop people from doing that but you can certainly mitigate it by making the proper treatments available and where possible reducing the social taboo.
>>9774309
The data shows superior health outcomes where abortion services are accessible and legal across a wide variety of countries and provinces. There is no other way to interpret it that is based in fact and places the patients health as the top priority.

>>9776564
You have a personal ideal of your body, you then make physical alterations to your body to match reality to your idealization. This is identical to wanting to switch genders save that society considers wanting to be more fit or athletic typical and wanting to be the opposite gender atypical.
>Competitive bodybuilders, especially today's freakshows, sure. Arnold-era builders did it for aesthetic competition. It was an artform. There were no underlying mental issues.
This line is your narrative with no supporting evidence whatsoever, and indeed there is quite a lot that is contradictory to it. Professional athletes rampantly abuse performance enhancing drugs at significant risk to their health.

>>9776628
as long as /sci/ wanks about IQ, psych is begrudgingly a part of STEM.

>>9772613
Disgusting

>load males up with estrogen for years and then cut their penises off
>"Look they have different brains shitlords! just as we expected!"
yawnnn...it's all so tiresome

>>9772613
>America

>>9776733
obviously studies are done with individuals not on hormones...

>>9776762

Even if it were true


People with schizophrenia have larger ventricles in their brain when compared to normal people

Does that mean we should let them act out their fantasies

>>9772433
No.

>>9773759
God I hate kikes so fucking much.

>>9772433
>What do you think?
They are sick and should be helped if they are willing to receive it, it should not be encouraged as a form of treatment though, in the same way doctors do not encourage schizophrenics to disconnect more and more from reality. The current method of treatment seems to actually worsen the lives of those administered the treatment, as significantly more of them commit suicide.
>Is transgenderism real.
Not in the sense that a person can meaningfully change their genetically fixed sex, yes in the sense that people with Body Dysmorphic Disorder exist.

Transition surgery is a monstrosity and violates the hippocratic oath, any doctor who encourages a patient to mutilate their own body when it provably makes them more likely to Cobain themselves should be stripped of their medical license.

>people who transition commit suicide
funny how these arguments never bring up the number of people who consider themselves trans and commit suicide before they've gotten a chance to transition

>>9772433
yeah it's real it's a mental illness

>>9776950
Have you ever thought that maybe they commit suicide because of a lack of acceptance from others? The proportion of homeless teenagers in the US that are LGBT can be up to 40% https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_among_LGBT_youth_in_the_United_States And discrimination is even worse for trans people than LGB

>>9776984

40% suicide rate because of bullying

I think there's more too it than that

if somebody with a peen thinks they should have been born with a vay and they wanna spend thousands of dollars to do so and it makes them happy idc

People also spend thousands of dollars to watch people throw bags of air around
if it makes them happy idc

I would like someone to finish Half life 3 though

>>9772527
baste

>>9772533
A lot of gay men have high test.
Gays can be divided into tops and bottoms (male and female)
Gender dysphoria however is a mental illness.

>>9772831
They still kill themselves because they know they're abominations. It seems like these people just can't win sadly.

>>9777220
Yeah, fuck off.
You realize their suicide rates are literally lower than any other group of surgery patients, right? Heart transplant patients have higher suicide rates, for fuck's sake.
Also, here is actual research:
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/85/5/2034/2660626
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/
http://journals.aace.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA?code=aace-site

>>9772560
>kids can get puberty blockers around 11-12

11 and 12 year olds can't make their own decisions. To allow a confused child to mutilate his or her body like that is child abuse, it should never be allowed under any circumstances.

>>9772646
>Do you buy into the perception that men have been women's oppressors for millennia?

Oh please, women have their place and it is below men. To ever suggest that the sexes are equal is a lie. Women are not fit to be leaders, or nation builders. They have never built a civilization and all the ones that they govern are in decline. Women have their place and they need to be kept there, the survival of our race and nation depends on it.

>>9777232
>mutilate
Loaded words aren't helping your case, and calling SRS mutilation is an insult to surgeons who do it.

>>9777238
I see you went full /pol/tard. Back to your containment board, faggot, we're done here. You lost the argument the second with this post right here.

>>9777240
Sexual reassignment surgery is mutilation. Allowing a confused child to pump their bodies with hormones and stunt their natural growth because they are growing and learning is a terrible idea.

>>9777243
Not an argument faggot.

>>9777248
>precision surgery is mutilation
You have to go back

all this science trying to legitimize "consciousness states" and mental illness because it has a "biological uniqueness" is nigger faggot tier science.

drinking coca cola will produce physical changes in the brain as well.
doesn't mean we were meant to drink the shit.

and completely expected to be presented on a 4chan thread.

goodjob OP.


we just need to start raising acertain amount of people in "scientific research farms" where they are MRI'd and asses every single day so that were can find out for sure weather a brain- is different before is becomes "aware" of its gayness.

I bet china's already on it.

>>9777253
>cutting a mans penis off and replacing it with a gaping hole that he must dilate several times a day so it doesn't get infected and kill him is good guys!

You guys are some sick fucks if you really think that's a good solution. If you're a tranny and you can't change, fine. Be the best tranny you can be. But don't ever think the fake hole between your legs will ever compare to that of a real vagina. The technology to simulate such a thing doesn't exist yet so don't jump on the shitty solution we have today.

>>9777264
>brain literally has female neurons
>they're mentally ill!!!
Consider suicide you pseudointellectual retard, you are a waste of oxygen

I believe in body autonomy, that people should be free to do to their bodies as they please. I personally take hormone replacement therapy even though I don't identify as transgender.

>>9772613
that has more to do with having someone watch you through a screen
versus actually playing a game on a screen.

they do it for attention.
and since they feel like they are hot/hunky enough to have a hetero male stream.
they become girls
make out with girls and men
then make money off of other degenerates.

>>9777270
That is literally not what the surgery is you retard.
It is refashioning the penis into a vagina. And unless the surgeon fucking sucks at their job, there will be no "dilating."
You just demonstrated that you have literally no goddamn idea how SRS actually fucking works.
This is a board for science, not /pol/tards talking about surgeries that they literally know nothing about.

>>9777278
>they do it for attention
Oh, of course. Clearly decades of research is wrong about this subject.
Fuck off, retard.

>>9777274
If that's the case, then they aren't mentally ill, It sounds like they're genetically fucked then. Female neurons belong in a woman's body, not a mans.

>>9777281
The solution is reassignment surgery in that case, brainlet.

>>9777279
It's still an ruined penis pretending to be a vagina. It will never be a vagina, in its current state it will never convince a real man that it is a vagina. The person who gets the operation done will still live the same lie they have been living from day one.

What a cursed existence.

>>9777274
I don't get what you are saying.

are you saying that someone who has "female" nerons is a female.
or is that what you think I think?

I confused.
female and male is largely about hormone production, which affects neurons.
it isn't the neurons themselves.

>>9777287
Yeah, no, you're wrong. I've already presented evidence that they have female brains, and yet you continue to insist they're somehow deceiving themselves?
You are a retard and I sincerely hope, for the good of mankind, that you never have children. The next generation does not deserve your retard genes getting passed down.

>>9777293
Female neurons= female, yes

>>9777280
Im talking about speedrunners.

many people become transgender because of their need to exercise their willpower own their own life and make their own decisions.

and buying into the whole thing that they will become a woman after they take years of hrt and surgeries.

but with technology today that isn't the case.

all transgenders are merely martyrs to the transhumanist cause.

they desperately want to transcend their own biology the way they want to.
but that is soo far off.


these people
even before going down the road to trnaisitoning
are confused, and vulnerable.

and just becuase you support their choices.
doesn't mean that the people offering these services are merely turning everyone into suckers, and rubes to be fleeced of their gold and sanity.

>>9777306
They are not being conned, they are quite literally women trapped in male bodies and men trapped in female bodies. There is evidence to support this. They are not mentally ill, they are not faking it for attention.

>>9777303
give me source about "female neurons"

female and male are about hormone production.
and everyone needs both hormones


a vagina and uterus with ovaries=female.

"female" neurons don't mean shit,
people probably have dog neurons
monkey neurons
fish neurons
and fungus neurons

so maybe I am a transgender dog fish money fungus man.

quit thinking you know biology by reading these articles, and pick up a fucking textbook and read the actual peer previewed article.

journalism is all about ads now.

>>9777310
they are confused and vulnerable
and don't understand whats going on
until someone tell them
so they believe them because they talk in comforting tones, and empowering language.

>>9777311
Not her, but when you replace your natural hormones with opposite sex hormones, you are changing your hormonal sex profile.

>>9777311
>>9777312
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/85/5/2034/2660626
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/
http://journals.aace.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA?code=aace-site
And it's hilarious that you're comparing transgender people to fucking otherkin.

I think people should be able to do whatever they want to their own bodies. You get one, when it's gone you're done. That's it, no more you. That won't be true for very much longer, but that's beside the point. Obviously it gets complicated when the person isn't an adult. You get weird Hollywood people putting their boys in dresses for likes on fakebook. This understandably enrages some people. Nobody likes to see kids hurt or lied to, except for people it's not wrong to murder.

On the one hand, the group of conservative people that dislike trannies have a very strong, time-tested culture and way of life that has been proven time and again to be beneficial to future generations. The entire world owes its current state to hard working bible thumpers, if you deny it you're lying to yourself. These people think if you're gay you should just try not to be and fake it, because you can be useful to society and hopefully not screw up younger peoples' minds with your self-indulgent crap.

Odd that the anti-trannies are in essence arguing that the welfare of the whole is of greater importance than the welfare of the few, and on the other side are actual commies.

Gripping hand is none of this shit matters, it's just being used against us so we don't go back to Occupy Wall Street. Go look at the timeline of that and then Trayvon Martin. We're being played.

>>9777300
> I've already presented evidence that they have female brains, and yet you continue to insist they're somehow deceiving themselves?

In that case, the best thing to do is wait for the technology to get better. Maybe they'll be able to grow a female body version of themselves like they did in that movie avatar so that way they can mostly the same person but the opposite sex version. The current solution deosn't seem to satisfy them and it is not something that should be encouraged on children. Maybe your day will come and you will get what you want but until now you're fairly limited.


Also, I'm going to have six white children and they will inherit the Earth while liberals abort and sterilize themselves. Follow suit goy.

>>9777317
>The current solution deosn't seem to satisfy them
They seem happier with current solutions than nothing.

>>9777317
Oh, so you're a /pol/tard after all. Protip: If only 6 out of 32 media outlets in the US are run by Jews, there isn't Jewish domination of the media. Ergo, your conspiracy theories fall to pieces.

There's also the fact that food and food packaging manufacturers as well as the pharmaceutical industry are straight up PUTTING WEIRD CHEMICALS IN OUR FOOD AND WATER that mess up our normal hormonal balance and turn girls boyish and boys girlish. We can't stop them. Are you really going to be so concrete in your beliefs when it's your family that starts turning? Imagine African DNA falling from the sky, and now everyone you know is part black. Are you going to be all "fuck I hate my family now, they're goddamn niggers!" Because that's the CIA talking out your mouth too, dumb shit.

>>9777321
This whole issue still sound comparable to other disabilities with what you have provided. I'm sure we can both accept that female neurons should not be in a mans body. Just like how having extra chromosomes causes down syndrome. Something went wrong during development and now they aren't like everyone else. If they truly are happier with reassignment surgery then go ahead and do it. I still don't think it is right to allow children who can't make their won decisions to potentially ruin their bodies because they were confused or exploring who they are. Once they are older and can make rational decisions, then they should start hormone therapy and surgery if they so choose.

>>9777323
Sauce

>>9777328
Hey samefag, >>>/pol/

>>9772433
Whenever it's real or not is irrelevant
What is relevant that only people wiling to go through operation in it's current state aren't sane and should be placed under watch

>>9777331
Let's play "count the Jews in charge of media companies!"

Walt Disney CEO: Bob Iger (Jewish)
CBS CEO: Leslie Moonves (Jewish)
Paramount Pictures Ceo: Brad Grey (Jewish)
20th Century Fox CEO: Stacey Snider (Jewish)
Comcast CEO: Brian L. Roberts (Jewish)
Condé Nast (parent company of Vogue, Glamour, Vanity Fair, The New Yorker, Reddit) CEO: Robert Sauerberg Jr. (Jewish)

CNN (Turner Broadcasting System) CEO: Ted Turner (non-Jew)
NBC Universal / CNBC CEO: Stephen "Steve" Burke (Irish Catholic)
Time Warner Parent Chairman and CEO: Jeff Bewkes (non-Jew)
Viacom CEO: Robert Bakish (non-Jew)
21st Century Fox / Fox News Executive co-chairman: Rupert Murdoch (non-Jew)
Executive co-chairman: Lachlan Murdoch (non-Jew)
PBS CEO: Paula Kerger (non-Jew)
C-Span / National Cable Satellite Corp Chairman: Brian Lamb (non-Jew)
Univision President & CEO: Randy Falco (non-Jew)
Netflix CEO: Reed Hastings (non-Jew)
Hulu CEO: Mike Hopkins (non-Jew)
Warner Brothers Entertainment Chairman & CEO: Kevin Tsujihara (non-Jew)
Universal Studios CEO: Steve Burke (non-Jew)
Pixar Studios President: Edwin Catmull (non-Jew)
Associated Press Chairman: Mary Junck (non-Jew)
Reuters Chairman: David Thomson (non-Jew, British royalty)
Gannett Company / USA Today Chairman: John Jeffry Louis (non-Jew)
Dow Jones & Company / Wall Street Journal CEO: William Lewis (non-Jew)
New York Times President & CEO: Mark Thompson (non-Jew)
Washington Post CEO: Fred Ryan (non-Jew)
Philadelphia Inquirer CEO: H.F. Lenfest (non-Jew)
Financial Times CEO: John Ridding (non-Jew)
Time Magazine / Time Inc. / Fortune Parent Executive Chairman: Joseph A. Ripp (non-Jew)
IBT Media / Newsweek / International Business Times CEO: Dev Pragad (non-Jew)
Houston Chronicle / San Francisco Chronicle / Seattle Post-Intelligencer Houston Chron CEO: John McKeon (non-Jew)

Looks like only 5 Jews in charge of media companies.
So much for Jewish control of the media, eh?

>>9777332
I'm >>9777315 and nobody else. I'm sorry if you can't handle my words. I'm not leaving though.

>>9777337
*6, sorry

>>9777331
>I still don't think it is right to allow children who can't make their won decisions to potentially ruin their bodies because they were confused or exploring who they are.
Umm, children aren't receiving genital surgery. They don't even receive full HRT until puberty, before that they can only get hormone blockers. Also there is a reason that these procedures are controlled by LICENSED MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS who know more about this than you. Also, if you are so opposed to "ruin their bodies" go campaign against circumcision and female genital mutilation, which both happen to 100x as many children WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT

>>9777343
So you support female genital mutilation? No? Well why aren't YOU out there "campaigning" against it? You sniff your own farts don't you?

fuckin hypocrite

>>9777339
>>9777337
They're 2% of the US population. That's a gross overrepresentation

>>9777337
You're only accounting for the owners of the businesses. They are still overly represented in the news agencies as well as Hollywood. The problem isn't just the Jews themselves, the way if thinking is a bigger issue. The pushing of the liberal agenda is what is destroying the West. Anyway, this is off topic we can talk about it another time.

>>9777343
I would protest all three. They shouldn't be given hormone blockers until later on. Children change a lot during this time and there's no point in ruining a healthy person because they were confused. Especially with all this gender nonsense they're pounded with today.

>>9777351
>MUH LIBERAL AGENDA
Holy shit, you unironically think that tolerance of others and treating everyone equally is a bad thing.
Please stop posting. If you cannot grasp the idea of judging based on character rather than skin color/religion/gender/sexual orientation/nationality/ethnicity, you are a goddamn idiot.

>>9777357
Yes, egalitarianism was a mistake. Equal rights only benefit those who are inferior.

>>9777313
takes a while for the body to balance out but it will compensate.
or burnout.
leaving you to maintain your endocrine system through drugs


>>9777314
this shit reminds me more of synaptic pruning than being born "a different gender"
I noticed they did suss out the trans people who weren't on hrt and those who were.

but acting like a girl
just like acting gay
or acting like a man
will change your brain too.

>>9777360
>egalitarianism was a mistake

>>9777347
Do you know how I know you're trolling? Your use of a vulgar ad-hominem attack.
For your information, I do indirectly oppose female genital mutilation, by investing in companies which develop and educate poor africans, which will help stop female genital mutilation.

>>9777361
Being gay isn't a choice you drooling retard.

>>9777357
There you go again, you don't even see it. You just said treating everyone equally and also judging people based on character are required, in the same statement. If you judge on character, what are you judging? What's the verdict? What's the punishment? You're going to stop treating someone equally aren't you? Who are you to say when that's okay? Fuck you motherfucker. I judge people on what they're doing to the future. You might not be bad, but when you support people who are bad for the future you get on the wrong list.

>>9777361
>leaving you to maintain your endocrine system through drugs
Millions of menopausal women do the same.

>>9777357
>Holy shit, you unironically think that tolerance of others and treating everyone equally is a bad thing.
Not them, but it obviously is.

>If you cannot grasp the idea of judging based on character rather than skin color/religion/gender/sexual orientation/nationality/ethnicity, you are a goddamn idiot.
This isn't an idea one can grasp though, it's a suicidal ideological position one can hold.

>>9777364
>he calls out fallacies with a red flag
What is this, baby's first argument?

>>9777369
Holy shit, equal treatment is a suicidal position to you? Brainlet alert.

>>9777368
much much later in life.
and those women are more afraid of getting chin hair

you don't need drugs when you are on menopause.

>>9777365
this is bait.
anything about your identity is a choice.

its totally not due to the fact that gays have historically low levels of self esteem. that they can't just find some internal justification for their own personal choices.
they need to feel comforted constantly by saying what every you do its not your fault, see.
its really all biology.

My gf(male) chooses not to have surgery, but I still love her.

>>9777364
Bad shit isn't going to stop happening in Africa bro. Europeans tried to tame it and couldn't. We got 4 out of 5, unless you count India. You have to know when to give up.

>>9777376
Homosexuals are gay by nature. It is hardcoded into them. Your sexual orientation cannot be changed, it is not a choice. A gay person is born gay. A bisexual person is born bisexual. A straight person is born straight. An asexual person is born asexual. You cannot change your sexual orientation. It's literally impossible.

>>9777380
>blaming Africans for the fallout from colonialism
Here's how I know you're a racist idiot who knows literally nothing about Africa. /pol/ is not real life, dude.

>>9777384
There is literally no genetic evidence to support that.

>>9777389
>I will only accept this type of evidence

>>9777380
>>9777387
We shouldn't have tried to tame it. They live like that for good reason, it's what works in that environment. They're worse off today with our civilization being imposed on them than they ever were.

>>9777373
On a societal level, it is. Society depends, for example, on people treating different sexes differently so healthy families exist (and that's pretty much the source of everything) and it requires people be able to discriminate insiders from outsiders so outsiders can't just take advantage of whatever your people manage to set up. Egalitarianism is why most Western countries have a below replacement vegetative growth while importing non-Westerners who will replace them. It's pretty much suicide at a civilizational level.

>>9777376
Anon, just ask yourself if you could stop liking tits and puss. The secret you, down deep, the you that's only around when nobody else is. Could that guy stop liking tits? You might be able to learn how to like dick, probably even, but you'd never get a thrill, butterflies when you think of a grody throbbing vein bulge, not the way a soft pillowy boob with a perfect nipple does. You couldn't stop liking it, because you were born that way, the same way I was. Be honest with yourself anon.

Please also take this Puppetry of the Penis pose I invented, I call it The Australian Fly for reasons that should be apparent. It is intended for unmutilated penises, your degree of success may vary.

>>9777390
If they are born gay then it would be genetic. If not then it is environment, and if it is their environment then it means we can tailor the environment to change them.

>>9777391
Yeah, no. Read a fucking book on Africa. I'm legitimately sickened by the fact that you keep referring to Africans as animals to be "tamed." They are human beings who are just as capable of doing what we can do given the same education and nutrition. Maybe stop reading pseudoscientific nonsense from Unz.com and start reading peer reviewed research instead. But I know you won't. Because you've already been indoctrinated into a conspiratorial mindset. Anything that contradicts your worldview must be a hoax from whoever runs the world, and there is no chance that you are wrong.
You are literally brainwashed.
I hope that you at least talk to your parents so they can get you the psychiatric care you clearly need.

>>9777398
>If they are born gay then it would be genetic.
Your knowlege is insufficient.

>>9777376
>and those women are more afraid of getting chin hair
>you don't need drugs when you are on menopause
Your perspective is quite limited. Come back when you know more about the female experience.

>>9777399
You are the one who is in need of counseling my misguided human neighbor. It would be unfortunate to live your entire life with self-righteous blinders on. I would suggest bonding with animals until you realize that we are animals. Then you might ponder how different animals act different, and why. These are the stepping stones I am showing to you, on a road that will make you less happy should you choose to take it. You would probably be best off if you were to leave after tonight and never return. Throw off my words and have a good time with your friends while you still can.

>>9777399
>it is absurd to think that different kinds of people do better with different forms of kinship and social structure
>everyone is exactly the same and can achieve the same things despite being genetically isolated for long enough that it created noticeable differences in populations.

Sounds like you're the brainwashed one. If we really were all the same and equal we would be seeing different results. Yet no matter what we do they always fail to live up to the standards the white man made. There is nothing wrong with the way they live in Africa. It is what works for their environment. They can't function as well in our societies because we are not the same.

>>9777405
i'm still waiting for a refutation and all I've gotten so far is >tfw 2 intelligent
You guys are just as bad as the pol shitposters but you honestly believe you're hot shit.

>>9777409
>genetically isolated
I'll take "shit that never happened" for $400, Alex
There have always been European and African interbreeding
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/05/160526105349.htm

>>9777416
Oh boy, every now and then a stray nog came across a European one time on a rare occasion, this totally blows the idea of genetic isolation out of the water.

>>9777411
Alright, I'll name 5 ways a child's pre-natal development is affected before birth.
1. Their epigenome
2. Prenatal hormonal environment
3. Prenatal bacterial environment
4. Physical stress during pregnancy
5. Nutrition provided by mother during pregnancy
You can't go back and change these when someone displays symptoms at 14 years old.

You guys, all of you:
Gay people are born gay.
Straight people are born straight.
Africans are born black.
These are just the facts of life. All of these groups are going to act the way they do, because they have no choice. We're meat computers running meat vehicles and the operating systems are not built, they grow, and sometimes they grow differently. If they have different roots to start with, it doesn't matter what you try and program on top of it, that 10% nature will sometimes override the 90% nurture.

>>9777420
Cool, those are environmental factors then. that means we can tailor the environment the mother is in to prevent such defects from occurring.

>>9777419
>small migration back into Africa
>just a few of them!!!
A migration of Europeans back into Africa blows "MUH GENETIC ISOLATION" out of the water.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4947341/

>>9777384
theres a difference between "being gay"
and getting fucked up the ass.

one nessicarily implies the other.

the other doesn't

you can be a full blown metrosexual faggot, and still love getting busy with a girl.

theres a lot of societal assumptions about sex, that people buy into regardless.
and since sex is probably the most vulnerable subject a person can talk about. it is easy as fuck it manpiulate them.
im sure society learned about this early on and it has been hard coded into our "understanding of sexual dynamics" ever since.


>>9777396
one of the biggest troubles it seems about this whole gay debate is the theory of mind.
I mean we can assume all we want about other peoples "private thoughts" but they are their private thoughts in the end.
and even if they feel confident enought to talk about them. theres still an assumption that they have the "correct" vocabulary with which to express it accurately .


sex just like violence just like drugs
must be taught.
its ll learned behavior.

there are desires.
and needs.
and attractions.
but people it seems.
even "normally adjusted" people still seem to have a hard time figuring that out.
I am just assuming that these people also have hard time figuring that stuff out as well.

>>9777407
when did we first start treating women for menopause
from WIkipedia
>Specific treatment is not usually needed.[6]

It's 5 AM and I need to go to bed. Peace out.

>>9777426
See that's an interesting idea, but it should be considered whether you should. We know that we could, we can do almost anything. From what I've found, homosexuality is found in roughly equal rates across all mammal species. About 1/4 are a little gay and about 5% are completely gay, this is rats, horses, dogs, sheep, basically anything with fur. Dolphins are gay as shit though. This group of animals all experience similar emotions too. If you could teleport your consciousness into a mouse or a dog, you would recognize all of the things it was feeling. Go watch the video of the scientist tickling rats with an ultrasonic microphone. We're critters. Yes we could edit people, to get back to the point, but should we? I personally think Earth should be a control, a safe haven where we don't mess with things too much. We should get real crazy on other planets.

>>9777426
If you are the person I've been replying to, your argument was that >>9777376
Identity is a choice
Which you justified with >it's not genetic therefore can be changed
But if someone was permanently affected before birth, they cannot change it, it is who they are. Saying that we can change future generations is moving the goalpost.

>>9777428
Jesus H Christ, lets start from square one.
Different groups of people exist because of their genes and how they were shaped by the environment. Africans have black skin because it protects them from the sun. Northern Europeans have pale skin to absorb more sun.
Just because people have been moving around and breeding with one another does not change the fact that there are obvious and biological differences. The breeding that occurred was not large enough to make us all the same because it simply didn't happen. If it did we would all be mullato mutts by now there wouldn't be the racial diversity we see today. People were also very tribalsitic back then and they kept other groups of people away from them and out of their gene pool.

>>9777429
>sex must be taught
No, sex will happen even without consciousness. A newborn baby can crawl out of its dying mother's vagina and find the boob and begin to feed, if it's old enough. The meat you're made of will reproduce if you let it, it's as simple as that. You could probably put two comatose fertile people naked next to each other, and eventually you'd find them fucking. Sex goes deep, if you'll pardon the pun.

>>9777439
No that wasn't me. Being gay can be a choice but I'm not talking about that.

>>9777409
or maybe social science is full of shit nd ull never get a situation where wt u say wd be the case.

>>9777439
>>9777447
Anyway, it's late and I'm going to bed, good talk.
praise kek, heil hitler, /pol/tard >>>out

>>9777447
>No that wasn't me
Oh nvm then, carry on. Best of luck and tell your mum I said hi!

>>9777445
that kid needs to know what their vagina is for
or where to stick their dick.

protip: no in the ass
and the vagina isn't a flesh pocket for berries.

>>9777443
Yeah we murdered the fuck out of each other and still do, that's why we all hate each other, is because the ones who didn't, the ones who accepted outsiders, died. You see some strange dude walking past your village, you ride the fuck out there with a posse and kill his bitch ass so he doesn't take tales of your village's existence to someone who will come for you and rape all your women and kill you. The young men who killed the interloper(s) were then, righteously, celebrated as protectors and accepted as mates by females. This is the critter we still are.

>>9777456
>This is the critter we still are.
Actually, I've managed to suppress most of my natural aggression by blocking testosterone through hormone replacement therapy. Science, hell yes!

>>9777462
and when the man takes the pills away from you

what will you do then?

>>9777464
I doubt that will happen, and in the event that I can't synthesize my own, I will keep living as best I can. What's your point?

It's hard to say what the right path is. In North America we have something probably only Australia could follow, as far as racial mixtures: Europeans wiped out the natives and imported workers whose descendants are still here today. Should North America turn into a blend of all humans? Not such a big deal to me, as long as we're preserving the genetic diversity in the rest of the world. You know what I mean by that.

>>9777462
If you're not having kids you are free to do whatever you want. Just don't help people make the future shitty.

>>9777469
Genetic diversity is not worth sacrificing people's choice of mate/freedom of movement. Also, with upcoming gene editing technology we can reintroduce or create new genetic diversity, problem solved!

>>9777467
lets hope you play by societies rule enough to where you wont go to prison.
or where you wont have a total meltdown and go into the looney bin
or become homeless.

becuase then you wont get any of those pills.

>>9777476
So you'd be cool if there were a whole planet of white people and only white people, if it wasn't Earth?

>>9777480
I won't be able to drink on the weekends either. What's your point?

Also, I'd add preserving genetic diversity is a hedge against viral epidemics. What if a virus comes along with 100% fatality that uses the neanderthal part of our DNA? Everyone who's not black and I mean REALLY black would die. Oops you let everyone have the same DNA. When put like that I almost wish there was a big computer making decisions for us.

>>9777485
Sure, as long as they are still allowed to travel to other planets if they choose.
>>9777491
That's not how viruses work and also genetic editing will cure genetic disease.

>>9777487
what is the self?

>>9777496
What? Literally what? How tf is that relevant?

>>9777495
Yeah on this hypothetical planet, they can leave. Probably. Unless space commies put up a wall.

Been fun, night fellow humans.

>>9777499
the self isn't relevant in as far as sexual dynamics are concerned?

no wonder you are so happpy to take your pills you no doubt define your entire lifestyle by.

>>9777506
>the self isn't relevant in as far as sexual dynamics are concerned?
Not in my case. That is, if I understand your meaning of "sexual dynamics" which by the way can you clarify?
>you no doubt define your entire lifestyle by.
Nope. I am far more than my hormonal profile or gender identity/lack thereof.

>>9777509
why do you place so much importance on gender identity and hormone profile

sexual dynamics= what you want to fuck, and how you go about trying to get it in context of the greater sexual milieu

>>9777514
>why do you place so much importance on gender identity
I don't.
>and hormone profile
I'm merely changing my body to suit my taste.
>sexual dynamics
Still quite separate from my "self"
Why do you care about what I'm doing to my body?

>>9777519
maybe your some other person
but I'm just trying to understand why its so important to find a biological basis for the reason why men and to chop their dicks off to be women, or why they want to suck their best friends dick.

if you feel that sex has no place in the self.
the it sound like you got some serious depersonalization going on.

>>9777524
I'm not into removing my penis, I don't think I'm a woman (I merely take feminizing hormone therapy), but if you are trying to understand the people who do, perhaps consider all of the barriers and social pressure against them and you might find why they feel a need to justify themselves.

And it's not that I feel that sex has no place in the self, rather that I find in my experience that my sense of self has no place in my sexual dynamics. I'm not like most other people sexually, and I've come to terms with that, and it in turn is a small part of my sense of identity. Why does your sexual attraction include your sense of self? Sounds kind of narcissistic to me (not trying to diss, merely an observation)

>>9777232
You best be vehemently against circumcision as well otherwise you are a massive hypocrite.

>>9777328
t. alex jones

>>9777360
> those who are inferior
So you then, along with the overwhelming majority of the planet (99.9999~%) who arent ridiculously wealthy or hold positions of power. You are probably anti union and think socialized healthcare is bad as well. This is the power of America.
> liberal agenda is what is destroying the West
Are you talking about the west that was founded on liberal principles? You have no idea what the political spectrum is do you.

>>9777240
>>9777253
>>9777279
>>9777300

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about you absolute retard.

>>9777539
When you find out he's telling the truth (about that) it might rupture your world.

>>9777530
because the act of sex requires at least two bodies.

and if I am not present and mindful during copulation then I am worse than an animal.

I might as well be just a hole.
or a blow up doll
or a rock
or a tree with a knot in it.

I put my self into every orgasm I have and every one I try to give to my partner.

why people don't do this is upsetting, and intriguing to me.


and I do consider the "social pressure" and the barriers that these people have.
I think that like the yin yang, there are two sides to this issue.
the permissive, "yes goy, take more pills, buy more prosthetic, get more wigs"
versus the authoritarian need to pass judgement
" oh you like dressing up and put make up on?, you must clearly be a woman trapped in a mans body, now go learn about having proper anal sex, until you can turn that penis into a cavity later on"

society has no patience for the quest for personal identity.
the more mysterious, unknown, or undefinable a person is. the more worried society is about them.


and then consider that these decisions now are being forced on young kids who are pretty much biologically primed to "play a different character every day"

but then you can fall into, well if you want to be this you gotta do this,
but theres some decisions , even when made at a young age that you can't walk back from. and you spend the rest of your life trying to justify a decision you made when you were too young, too dumb, and too full of cum.

>>9777538
actually he wouln't be as thats a decision made by the parents.

>>9777392
>people treating different sexes differently so healthy families exist (and that's pretty much the source of everything)
Produce the peer reviewed sources from credible journals that concretely show any causation or correlation between sex, gender, and the health of familial units. Additionally define "pretty much everything" and then produce the evidence that supports your upbringing solely defining it.
>discriminate insiders from outsiders so outsiders
Doing this isnt a choice, its a basic premise of social systems in animals. However society isnt a zero sum game where someone else my lose for your gain. States want as many people as possible because it enriches the state economically and culturally. Stop forming opinions based on your personal narrative and read a book, there has been a lot of thought given over to nation building throughout history.

>>9772433
Used to hate them. Now I just feel sorry for them and should pray God to help them back to the light.

Obviosly its real, the brain and the body develop at different rates in the womb. So once in a blue moon someone ends up with a male brain in a female body or female brain in a male body.
And thats what every transgeder always says, they are in the wrong body.

But for some reason this shit is too crazy for people, like you can be born without a brain, without eyes or arms, with the wrong number of chromosome or mirrored organs or 10000 different birth defects. But being born in the wrong body is somehow too fucking cray.

>>9777564
what is the self anon?

>>9777550
Well when I have (admittedly unorthodox) sex, I am entirely focused on my partner, and thinking of my self kills my arousal.

As far as social pressure, I was speaking of the pressure against them acting as they please, such as transphobia and homophobia.

I try to avoid boxing myself in with all these labels and identities and such. But I deliberately live in a liberal society which tolerates my independent self-expression, so I face very little social repercussion for doing so.

I don't see decisions being forced on young people, they are still assigned a gender at birth and that is the default unless they feel otherwise. No big deal.

And yes, some things are permanent, but the same can be said of natural puberty which pains many trans people who are forced to live with it. A choice is better than no choice.

I'm going to sleep now.

Wasn't gonna reply to this but it stays resolutely at the top of the board glaring at me.

I don't know why /sci/ is anti-transgender when the whole phenomenon basically backs up your belief that men and women have different brains. If this is is the case then it stands to case that nature fucks up occasionally and some men get born with a female brain and vice versa. This is why feminists hate transgender people because it destroys the idea that gender is a social construct hence men and women are equal and identical.

>>9777567
*stands to reason

>>9777429
>theres a difference between "being gay"
and getting fucked up the ass.
What the fuck are you actually talking about here. We are discussing sexual orientation not colloquial terms. The only choice someone has regarding their sexual orientation is if they will act on it. I cant suddenly stop liking redheads and asians simply because I want to.
>>9777455
So if an animal needs a parent to teach it how to reproduce how do you explain the 30286318906318203 species that do so via instinct.

>>9777564
Yeah this basically. Also the reason why the reason why doctors cut the body to match the brain is because changing the brain to match the body is much more difficult. We know this through decades of failed gay conversion therapy.

>>9777553
So if a child seeks therapy to change genders with the consent of the parent he is ok with it? My inference was that he thinks it should never be allowed by a higher authority based on the idea its mutilation. A very weak argument given that circumcision, tonsillectomy, and appendectomy could all be considered mutilation under the same thinking.
>>9777549
>Alex Jones
>The truth
pick one

>>9777565
The Brain

>>9777574
Says a lot that most of the bigots are now rallying around the children argument. All bigotry goes through the same phase
>You are a consenting adult not hurting anyone but you can't do that
>Ok adults can do it but they can't do it openly lest they influence children
>Ok everyone can openly do wtf they want
Saw the exact same cycle with homosexuality.

>>9777567
i think "nature fucking up" is an is/ought problem

and men and women have different brains as far as a mechanic and an accountant have different brains.
theres just more of an emphasis on hormones.


i think the assumption here that no one is really talking about but skirting around it is that /sci/ I think believe its a psychological issue than can be solved by a process of maturity, what ever that journey maybe for that person.
the "sjws" say that a gay, trans can't changed their nature and it must be encouraged by taking all this bullshit, then it must be maintained by taking that bullshit as well.
while "anons" say that is can be changed.

like I know a bunch of people that had an "expiermental phase" but they got over it.
why do some people get over sucking dick and taking it up the butt but others don't?
they like it too much.
but society sees that as an issue
so they try to justify it and become an SJW.

>>9777567
Because as much as people like to think they are objective and scientifically-minded they are still affected by their prejudice

>>9777569
>how do you explain the 30286318906318203 species that do so via instinct.

trial and error.
you every see a dog try an hump a bitch on their first go? Absolutely hilarious.

>I cant suddenly stop liking redheads and asians simply because I want to
why don't you think that is the case.
becuase there's many behavior modification techniques that can force you to associate redheads and asians with pain.
Many people quit smoking ciggs, and doing heroin. and they *say* that they abhor those things now.
How can those attitude change?

>>9777574
>circumcision, tonsillectomy, and appendectom
the things that get exised in these cases serve no direct apperent purpose to the human biology.
a penis, and testicles are very useful to a man.
just as a vagina and ovaries are useful to woman.

>>9777578
how can you not be your brain then?
is the brain irreducible?
is the self irreducible?

>>9777582
Well of course ignorant people say XYZ is a phase, that's what ignorant people do. Pic related has been a tranny for like 50 years and people will still tell her it's just a phase.

>>9777579
I find it ironic that America is supposed to be the most libertine off the western nations yet culturally its half a century behind. On a side note it probably is actually a bad idea to allow children to take hormone replacement therapy or seek SRS just off the fact that at least SRS is permanent and children are volatile. I'm not an expert or particularly well read in the medicine of it though so at least in the case of hormone therapy that might be a moot point.

>>9777591
>a penis, and testicles are very useful to a man.
>just as a vagina and ovaries are useful to woman.
If you are a trans woman you have no need of your penis, if you are a trans man you have no need of you vagina. I know the idea of someone removing your dick and replacing it with a vagina is horrific to you but try not to think of this from your own perspective, that is the problem.

>>9777597
Why should it be considered from some other perspective? I mean, besides the bullshit emotional imperative.

>>9777593
Ironically it's the high level of liberty in the USA that causes the bigotry. Just like how Colorado is free to legalize weed Texas is free to bash LGBT for whatever retarded religious reasons. In other countries the entire nation is usually forced to follow some middle-ground by the national government.

Children transitioning is a bogeyman, pretty sure they are not allowed SRS and hormones until 18. They may get blockers which are reversible.

>>9777603
How can you understand someone's mind if you aren't looking at things from their perspective?

>>9777591
>trial and error.
Under your thinking the dog wouldnt even try to mount the bitch because he was never taught.
>and they *say* that they abhor those things now.
No they dont. They abhor what they were and the dependence, they miss the high on a level people without that experience cant understand.
>the things that get exised in these cases serve no direct apperent purpose to the human biology.
The tonsils and tissue surrounding the appendix are both part of the immune system, and there is increasing though that the appendix itself may not be entirely vestigial. The foreskin is part of your nervous system and intrinsic to sexual pleasure and health.

You cant/dont fact check yourself, your command of the english language is terrible, and you are denying instinct exists. Engaging you anymore would make me an idiot.

>>9777605
>They may get blockers which are reversible
This was my assumption because no one is in an uproar over similar treatments being prescribed to children for other reasons.

>>9777608
The pandering mentality is inadequate. In the other direction, we have rose-colored glasses. Continuing, why should we care what is in their mind. Lastly, why not flip the script and make them look from someone another perspective because it is apparently valid for us?

>>9777605
the whole middle-ground thing works within the state too surely. defining states and nations is arbitrary and probably only necessary in very big countries. i dont see the states freedom to implement a policy the same as the liberty which is valued in the usa.

>>9777605
>>9777612
Depends on the country. Some places you can get hormones after you've a been on blockers for a few years (so starting around ages 14-16)

>>9772525
The fulfillment of instinctive needs is dependent on the environment. We then create a personality based on experiences/memories, which uses patterns of actions, reactions and thoughts to make survival easier.

Transgender do not see any possibility to fulfill their needs anymore. It's a state of helplessness. Those people need to learn to break out of their past and develop a proper personality through behavioral therapy, positive social experiences, learn new perspectives (open mindedness) and depth analysis to confront their traumata

The idea of traumata, negative experiences and so on magically disappearing when one changes its gender, is completely screwed up.

It is absolutely sad that these people experienced so much rejection that they want to become a completely new person and even worse that society supports it and limits those peoples whole personality to being a transgender

They see how much transgenders are praised and hope for acceptance for becoming a transgender. The suicide rate pre and post operation is still the same.

>>9773890
Nothing wrong with that

Our real issue as a society is the degradation of people into stereotypes and looks instead of teaching people to embrace their natural selves. The limit to this statement is having a real mental issue that could possibly harm others.

In this case these people still need acceptance and help in order to fix their shit.

>>9777597
if they want to remove or whatever fine

but to convince yourself you are "more woman" when you cut off your penis, or turned it inside out, or that you are more man if you have a gigantic skin tag grafted onto your cooter.
is what is at issue.


>>9777609
> dog wouldnt even try to mount the bitch
thats were assuptinos get the better of us.
You don't need a "master" in all cases to figure stuff out ad teach yourself. You just need an inquisitive mind, and desire. sex tend to motivate both those things.

>they miss the high
sometimes addicts come to a profound realization that the high is longer worth it.
and have seen the devastation it has caused to their lives and others.

>stuff about excising organs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair
everything on your body is part of a system.
some of them aren't *that* important
like your second kidney and your gall bladder.

i am not denying instinct exists.
you are denying that people will subvert, co-opt and use your instincts to manipulate you.
this happens the most around sex.

>>9777637
ultimately what they are striving to change is their socially constructed gender. a male has a penis and a female a vagina but man vs. woman is more complicated. like when you compare male and female in animals, especially ones with low dimorphism. you can say they are pretty much the same. they shouldnt have the same connotations. yet even so, people still put human stereotypes on animals based on whether they are female or male. think it just goes to show, when people do say more man or more woman, its alot more than just a penis and vagina.

>>9775243
Homosexuality can be explained easily. The development of a fetus from female to male does not happen in one step, but through slow progression.

Homosexual woman = overdeveloped
Homosexual man = underdeveloped

The hormonal evidence scientists are looking for are merely money grabbing

We would need to find out the exact progression and how the pregnant womans hormones, diet and other factors influence the development.

Anyways, transgenderism is a completely different story than homosexuality.

>>9777608
How can you understand your own mind?

The biggest part is happening in your subconsciousness.

Few informations are passing from subconscious to conscious, but we cannot comprehend our own mind.

Another point is ones biased perspective as well as perception.

>>9777698
well we give people agency and respect it. and we need their perspective.

>>9777709
Sorry, I suppose it wasn't phrased very well.

Homosexuality and transgenderism must be differentiated.

Transgender indicates very serious mental issues and it is sad, but realistically therapy is way more helpful than an operation. The arguments are in my previous post >>9777631


The people considering to modify their gender are biased and their perspective is very close minded due to the emotional ballast.


The unbiased colleagues and I would never approve to this procedure. It is more of a social human experiment than real attempt to help those people

>>9777732
i think it should be tailored to the specific patient whether surgery be used or not.

It could be an indicator of some sort of mental abnormality but its a fuzzy line when it comes to something like identity. I dont think someone should have to forcibly change their gross identity about themselves. I dont think a belief about oneself becomes a negative issue unless it is directly harmful/dangerous or related to a wider syndrome which is inherently harmful.

I believe mental illnesses are social constructions. They represent extremes of behaviour but not all extremes of behaviour are mental illnesses. The categories are there to help people, not as objective scientific categories.

>>9777732
im for evidence-based stuff overall but im skeptical of your previous post because my instinct is that we dont really know or know much about why people have those feelings or why people dont get those feelings even when theyve had traumatic backgrounds.

I also think that the suicide incidence pre- and post- doesnt necessarily speak to the efficacy of how changing their gender makes them feel but is possibly going to involve lots of other factors contributing to their mental illnesses such as continued abuse, alienation from families and friends, homelessness other mental health issues that are not directly related to their feelings of gender. obviously gender change is never going to change those things. I think we should separate those different issues and not necessarily treat them as part of the same homogenous thing.

I dont think theres anything inherently wrong with these operations/hormone therapies. My understanding is the main issues are just reversebility and people changing their mind. And also people doing it too young.

senpai can anybody explain why feminists are so on board with Trans bs when it is gender essentialism writ large, something feminists have been combating since day 1?

this is all such a contradictory mess I don't know where to start

>in b4 terfs
small and hated minority no one pays attention to other than to deride

>>9777858
how is it gender essentialism?

>>9777911
it reaffirms that the sexes have divergent brain structures from which gendered behaviors arise

>>9777548
>anecdotal evidence

>>9777923
How have we not scanned a gorillion brains by now? That seems like something we should already know.

>>9772433
Ah but any difference between genders in brains is just bad science.