/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9750100
spoken langauges are the languages of quality. Whereas mathematics are the language of quantity.

>>9750108
BS, it's not a language bro
It has notation big fackin deal

>>9750100

basedboy, lol

>>9750112
x+y=z
let x be your mother, let y be your father and z be a faggot

I found the formula for OP!

pretty descriptive if I do say so myself.

>>9750118
don't talk about my family dude
I'll rape your pussy basedboy anus faggot

>>9750108
onions: the post

>>9750131
why, because they make you cry?

>>9750100
Who says that?

>>9750142
literally every faggot ive ever met

>>9750112
A language is a method of communication either written or spoken to other people. Just because it communicates something different doesn't make it any less of a language. I'll admit it sounds counter-intuitive to say math is a language but just because something is counterintuitive doesn't make it incorrect.

>>9750132
he meant to say s-o-y but for some reason, it changes to onions when you post

>>9750216
Math doesn't communicate anything by itself, proofs just prove postulations based on axioms
Language is a way to make thoughts into a readable format, math doesn't do that

>>9750216
Mathematics has a specialized vocabulary associated with it, but it is not a language. I wouldn't speak to you in mathematese to tell you about my new deck chairs.

>>9750158
Its the language of immediate perception. Euclid's axioms dont have any other proof other than what is immediately grasped. How your brain constructs objects using simple lines and putting them together to form complex objects, when you see a broken up word, your brain sees the fragmented sets of lines and puts them together. A really great one is Paul Dirac deducing the properties of anti matter when he was getting negative values for energy exchanges in the vacuum of space.

It is a language. Once you learn how to translate English to math, you've made it.

>>9750216
>>9750230
>>9750232
>math is the universal language of knowledge, you guys!

>>9750216 #
>>9750230 #
>>9750232 #
>math is the universal language of knowledge, you guys!

Math is a language.

Math is not a language.

>>9750257

>>9750248
Imagine actually not being a mathematical realist.

>>9750248
>being this much if an anti-intellectual
You're no better than Bill Nye pushing muh 31 genders

> post innocuous statement
> soiboi.png
> implying

>>9750258
This.

CS wins again.

for all you humorless, bait-prone drones
>is the math a language?
sure, if you take the bare bones definition of language at face value, then yeah math definitely qualifies. So do street signs and a sheet of music. You can have the semantics debate of what is and isn't a language for all eternity.

The problem is whenever someone tries to stretch the analogy between a formal language and a natural language too far, in attempt to make some profound statement.

>>9750302
Ignore the "the" before math

More importantly, is a taco a sandwich? Is a pop tart a sandwich? Is MATH a sandwich?

>>9750270
works every time, doesn't it?
I had to try it myself, just to see why this stupid meme caught on.

>>9750100
Notation is the universal language (for humans).
Math itself is a conglomerate of ideas. Wether or not said conglomerate is universal to any and all sentient beings is a while different debate. (Hint, probably not).

>>9750100
of course it is
it is used to describe something
it has syntax and meaning
it is both taught and in born

>>9750100
>math is the language of the universe

>>9750100
Op is a faggot brainlet niggerfuck. People like you only serve the purpose of fertilizer

>>9750804
>Farting is a language if someone tries to interpret the sounds

>>9750814

if you are able to replicate morse code with farts then yes it is a language

>>9750801
This one I hate the most.
Math isn't the language of the universe. this universe is just one of an infinite amount of universes that are projections of the infinite perfect Platonic realm.
Math is more fundamental than this universe or its laws, it's not the "language" of the universe it's the "language" of ALL things.

>>9750220
testing:

basedboy
onions

>>9750924
baka desu senpai onions

test

baca desu sempai onions cuk

ONIONS S0YB0Y

>>9750220
>>9750924
>being THIS new

>>9750220
>>9750924
>>9750926
>>9750981

based so[math][/math]yboy filter in action

>>9750285
Sad that low IQ math people probably don't even understand how to lex/parse their own language.

>>9750223
>Language is a way to make thoughts into a readable format, math doesn't do that
Is it possible to be this much of a brainlet?

>>9751122
>no argument
what part is wrong?

>>9750248
It's actually better than a language. It's like the proto-language.

Think of it this way when a word 'is', what is its property? Unity, correct? So the word already resembles a numerical property: one. Much like how you must put multiple letters together to form a sound, or syllable. Already I can tell you: language is just the expression of mathematics. So OP and most people actually have it backwards!

Pic related for OP. This is what he looks like IRL.

so why are you all posting this disgusting beard guy with glasses instead of the dudes with funny heads

>autistically arguing about semantics

i really shouldn't be surprised. it is /sci/ after all.

If mathematics is a language, perhaps someone can translate the following statements from English into Mathematese:

It is sunny outside.

I had pizza for dinner.

My new deck chairs are very nice, I got them on sale.

>>9750223
Stop making up words discreetfag

Math isnt real

>>9751355
It isn't, its a virtual thing.
Can you hold math in your hands?
Can you reach down from a math tree and eat a math fruit?
No.

Math only exists in the Minds of those able to perceive it, and it in itself is simply a means of perceivers understanding Reality around them. It is a means of the Sapient, and as such is limited in its existence to Sapience.

>>9751374
In fact, there are lots of things that are virtual rather than physical.

Virtual means that can't be manifested without outside of an external source, or its something that is manifested by an external source.

Let's give an example.

A .txt file on your desktop named "Data" and on the inside says "Info."
Does it exist?

In a physicality sense, no.
It's just a virtual existence that has been manifested by the external physical sources [Your terminal, and you specifically]

For virtual things to "exist" they also need a feedback loop, or "awareness of."

This is to say, "Without the physical terminal, Data.txt would not be able to exists; however if there was no one to operate the terminal, or the terminal had no power, Data.txt would not be realized, despite existing."

Data only becomes info once it is received and and to a lesser extent, understood. This is how virtuality works.

Some other things that are virtual.
Language itself, The Ego and Identity, Music; one can argue that non naturally occurring physicalities are technically virtual [i.e. Cake] however thats a bit of an advanced discussion that takes away from my initial point.

It isn't to say that virtual things have no importance, its just to say that virtual things exist only because there are means for them to exist. and likewise do not exist outside the boundaries of the things that allow them to exist in the first place.

You could get deep into a discussion about "Concepts and ideas." however, it boils down to "Why do Concepts and Ideas" exist? Because we're Sapient beings that have physicality that can give means to virtuality.

Tl;Dr.
Things without matter do matter, however without things with matter, they really don't.

>>9751421
If matter didn't exist, would 1 + 1 still equal 2?

>>9751336
this is the most brainlet tier response
math speaks about logic not what your brainlet mind concerns itself with
did you know aboriginal languages don't have words for space travel? what a surprise! they must not be real languages

>>9751374
>>9751421
Would you mind providing sources for further reading?

>>9751428

Two answers:
If going by "Data needs Feedback" argument.
Sort of; however there is no feedback to confirm, therefore its in an unknown state. "It doesn't matter, because there is no matter to manifest the solution." Therefore, "The Data exists in some form, however it is never properly manifested, due to there being no matter to manifest and realize it."

If going by "Mathematics is a virtuality of the Sapient."
No; if we weren't Sapient creatures, 1+1 would be a foreign concept to us. If there are no Sapient creatures to understand the concept, 1+1 doesn't exist at all. Essentially, "What is 1+1 to a worm?"

how is /sci/ so fucking inept at understanding grade school level sarcasm? how did half of you social retards make it past the age of 18?

OP is a stupid self-hating basedboy troll, who didn't make it past pre-algebra, but you lot just keep gobbling up his dick.

>>9751437
Well, its kind of just your basic philosophy really. Can't really give you a specific source and say "This famous person said this, therefore my viewpoint is credible."

If you are interested in the viewpoint, I recommend starting with baby's first philosopher Descartes to understand the seperation between physicality and virtuality, then continuing onward to Deleuze.

I know this is /sci/ and religion is the poison of the brainlet masses, but it doesn't hurt to read over some non theistic/dogmatic Bhuddist, and Taoist principles and applying them to your reading. Strictly optional, it just might help really nail down the idea that "There is physical, and there is non physical."

>>9751459
>>>/reddit/

>>9751429
Mathematics possesses a formalism, that does not mean that it is a language. It is a lot of things, but the primary purpose of mathematics is not the same as the primary purpose of English, French, or Swahili.

Of course, if we relax our definitions enough then we can define anything to be anything. I propose that mathematics is a pop tart, prove me wrong brainlet.

>>9751468
funnily enough if you went back 500 years this wouldn't even really be a debate because math didn't use symbols. just because it has symbols doesn't mean it's not a language
>burden of proof
it doesn't surprise me you fucked this up brainlet

>>9751470
translate this sentence into math please, I'm trying to prove a point

>>9751475
only if you translate it first into swahili
you obviously know nothing about either swahili or math to say something as dumb as this

>>9751470
Speaking of burden of proof, nobody has proved that mathematics is a language. Therefore my assertion that mathematics is a pop tart is just as valid as the prior assertion that mathematics is a language. You assume that it is a language and insist that everyone else proves that it is not. Well, I insist that mathematics is a pop tart and you have provided no arguments that it isn't.

>>9751475
but you know what
it's not actually hard
so here you go

let f(x) be the function that translates english into math language. it's easy to show f(x) is neither surjective or injective but does exist.

>>9751478
are you a newfag
the greentext with image implied that math wasn't a language which was the claim

>>9751260
while OP is most certainly a brainlet, I think you're misinterpreting what his intentions were. He's pointing out that s.oys tend to spout shit like >math is a language, without having much of an understanding of either math or languages. He's not taking a stand on what he actually thinks, because he's a pussy and would rather watch even dumber brainlet argue about a definition.

>>9751480
Ok, compute f(taco)=

Now, OP was not making an argument. OP was trolling. How fucking new do YOU have to be to take the bait. Before you answer, compute the expression above. COMPUTE IT

>>9751488
>definition not good enough
did you fail out of any math course in university or did you not even bother because you knew anything abstract would fuck you?
it's more than enough for a translation into math but your tiny brain can't comprehend that different languages are tools for different things and thus will lack words another language has

>>9751464
Thanks, I've been looking for stuff to read over the summer.

>>9751488
well at least one person got it

>>9750100
Is "English" a language?
I'm a super advanced alien being, undergoing human behavior research. All I see you do is make unintelligible, unstructured, simple squawks and barks. Hardly any information at all seems to be relayed. In fact, over 80% of your behavior seems to be instinct.
I however communicate in an immeasurably more complex fashion which transmits advanced concepts. My species has achieved great feats of creation, that species at your level of development(common) can't physically fathom.

>>9751253
The part where math turns thoughts into a readable format.

>>9751497
Your post is in English, though.

>>9751493
Mathematics is a set of self-evident truths. There is a specific vocabulary associated with mathematics, but that vocabulary is a subset of other languages. Stop trying to make yourself feel smart by defining something to be something else using a non-definition.

>>9751514
>pidgins aren't languages
nice argument bro

>>9751516
so mathematics is now pidgin english? Go explain that to your advisor, I'm sure he'll be very interested to hear your theory.

>>9751493
see
>>9750302

You know, they say /k/ is the easiest board to troll. They're wrong, /sci/ is off the charts.

>>9751518
>but that vocabulary is a subset of other languages
amusingly because it is an actual language it serves as a pidgin for logic which is readable regardless of native language or education language

>>9751520
that's cool and all but math has both depth and universality. doesn't matter how simple it is in terms of other languages. people trying to stretch math into a common spoken language is where people get hung up on this. they think that because their language has words for something every language must

>>9751525
What do you expect? It's full of addle pates and pseuds who fall on the left side of the Dunning-Kruger curve.

>>9751533
>math is a subset of logic

>>9750228
Except you could so idk what your point is.

>>9751544
My new deck chairs make me feel very safe and comfortable. What is the branch of mathematics that deals with feelings?

>>9751541
not entirely sure what you think math is but with that statement and the context i brought with it you really don't belong in this thread

>>9750100
just for fun let's go into Hockett's design features of a language.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockett%27s_design_features

1. Vocal-auditory channel: didn't account for sign language but works as a written language which is tactile-visual (braille math)
2. Broadcast transmission and directional reception: papers are written and directed towards other people who know sufficient math
3. Transitoriness: ignores written writing but papers fade with time because math is constantly being built upon so it just gets included in something else but dissapears
4. Interchangeability: you can read then write math
5. Total feedback: you can read what you're writing
6. Specialization: indeed math is very intentional
7. Semanticity: if i say f is a function of x you have to infer it as [math] f=f(x) [/math]
8. Arbitrariness: while this one isn't entirely true, it disregards asl as a language because it has inferable signs as does math (Curl is how much something curls, etc)
9. Discreteness: math is a language of symbols
10. Displacement: i can read a paper that was published anywhere and not have to contact the author for it (ignoring select cases)
11. Productivity: this is how math came so far. constantly creating new things and the main reason people call math a language imo
12. Traditional transmission: this is why university is a popular place to learn math
13. Duality of patterning: the symbols themselves are arbitrary
14. Prevarication: any mong can write 1x1=2 (kek sorry terry)
15. Reflexiveness: indeed
16. Learnability: universities are the most popular form

i welcome any rigorous definition of language analysis for this thread

>>9751485

people in this thread surely could translate this into pure english since math isn't a language

>>9751533
The current math notation is very limited in its flexibility when describing emotions and nebulous thoughts. You could trivially translate statements regarding those concepts into a mathematical notation. But those concepts and ideas will still be fundamentally rooted in the understanding of the natural language. Try to imagine how you would perceive things like anger, sadness, luck, freedom, responsibility, jealousy, confusion, joy, love, creativity, and lethargy purely through a formal system. You could perhaps come up with some functions that would convey such ideas based on their behavior, but you would be sacrificing the flexibility and descriptive power. And you would be trying to fit the function to your natural language understanding of the emotion. Once strong AI replaces us, perhaps formal concepts will be the primary root, but I cannot perceive how that AI would see it, anymore than I can visualize a 10 dimensional space without projections.

>>9751579
why do you constantly try to pick things that math wasn't designed or used for as a reasoning as to why it's not a language. Inuits don't have words for black holes or quasars but does this make them not a language?

>>9751571
>not entirely sure what you think math is but with that statement and the context i brought with it you really don't belong in this thread

Previously, someone(was it you?) defined pidgin as a subset of another language. Mathematics is not a subset of logic. Mathematics uses logic, but it is not a subset of logic. I think you're right though, I do not belong in this thread. I don't generally associate with s0yb0y brainlets that find any utility in making pointless arguments to sound smart. Mathematics is not a language, it is a set of self-evident truths. If you can find my me any other language that is a set of self-evident truths then I will agree that mathematics can be classified in the same category as that language. Mathematics and languages might possess some similar characteristics, but mathematics does not serve the same general purpose as a typical language. This is a facile, brainlet-tier analogy.

>>9751592
idk where you got subset from m8
see this is why you're retarded. your brain is both too small to understand why people call it a language after dealing with it and you can't get past the so[math][/math]yboy filter unsurprisingly

>>9751594
Is English a set of self-evident truths?

>>9751598
what? are you trying to strawman to stretch it into relating to math not being/being a language?
address my other points brainlet or alternatively i can bring up a new one because it's easy to look at other places for answers when you have above 100 iq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_language
>A national census undertaken in 2013 reported that about 149,000 people, or 3.7 per cent of the New Zealand population, could hold a conversation in Māori about everyday things.[5][6]
if only 3.7% of the new zealand population can talk about say "new deck chairs" does that mean maori isn't a language?

https://youtu.be/atupfHizJxM?t=277
Chomsky owns all the amateur STEMfags trying to into philosophy of math in this thread

Stick to sucking cock for grants and number crunching

>>9751606
Read the fucking thread and you'll see that I was merely responding to other people's arguments. If we end up at a ridiculous place it is because I am employing the reducto ad absurdum technique to demonstrate the foolishness of other's points by carrying them to a logical conclusion.

>>9751613
>chomsky
A fucking charlatan. There is no "philosophy of mathematics" there are fucking axioms and logic.

>>9751615
latin's not a language bro don't try and imply it is

>>9751615
>A fucking charlatan.
t. /pol/ brainlet that can't separate his politics from his theoretical insights
Kill yourself

>>9751624
Where did I mention politics? I just voiced my opinion that Chomsky is a hack.

>>9751585
You can say math is a type language, that's very good at succinctly communicating purely logical statements. When idiots say >math is a language, they are implicitly comparing it to natural language and touting its universality, without taking into account the rigidity and limitations. Formal and natural languages are different beasts and should not be conflated. They are both communication devices with syntax, but that's where the major similarities end.

>>9751615
Also
>There is no "philosophy of mathematics" there are fucking axioms and logic.
You're very stupid and ignorant. Read Wittgenstein's lectures. It has never occured to retards like you that we pick the axioms that we do because we already know what a real number is and are merely trying to formalize this concept, foundations of math is just formalization of math and it says nothing about the metaphysical, epistemological and other philosophical matters you dumb retarded brainlet kill yourself (probably highschooler)

>>9751630
i say it's a language because it satisfies my post
>>9751571
quite easily

i'd like to see your linguistic analysis on it though and not just your opinion :^)
i'm out of this thread because these brainlet reasons can't compare
nice strawman btw i wasn't away everyone said that and my profs are actually idiots lmao !

>>9751632
You're correct, we pick the axioms to correspond to things we already intuitively know. Euclid simply distilled the accumulated knowledge from the surveying techniques of the Egyptians and Babylonians down into axioms. I don't see why this qualifies as "philosophy of mathematics" at least in the sense that your average nomaths brainlet might conceive of such a philosophy.

I've never read Wittgenstein but I've read a fair amount of Russel and Whitehead. Give me a link faggot and I'll fucking read it.

Rule six, brainlet. Stupid people on this board ffs

>make low-effort green text bait with s.oyjak
>100 replies
how can it be this easy?

>>9751665
Are there not mods here or do the mods not even read the rules except “don’t post cheese pizza”?

>>9751673
The mods can't help you now. You're locked in here with us.

>>9751673
they take a hands-off approach mostly
ive very rarely seen bans
they probably just hate the board so much, that no one wants to bother
really wish they could trade places with the /sp/ mods, even if it we're just for a day

>>9751551
Any branch of mathematics can deal with any number of things.

>>9751673
fuck you, cheese pizza is delicious

>>9751695
This guy gets it

Mathematics, or numerical relations, is what develops the concepts of Good, Evil, Far, Near, Long, Short, etc. in their most primitive forms.

A good example of this is found in the sequence '1, 2, 3'. This essentially equates to

'Unity, chaos, order', principally.

>>9751721
indeed
41 is an evil as fuck number

>>9751721
>le meaningless pseudo-intellectual gobbledygook
>so smart, much maths!

>>9751735
>>9751730
>hasn't read Aristotle's Metaphysics, Nicomachus' Introduction to Arithmetic, or Plato's Timaeus

Ahhhh to be young and think that all there is to numbers is some abstract, objective quality and no mystical spiritual component. These posters are most likely atheists too btw

>>9751749
We're talking about mathematics, which is a rigorous discipline. This is not a forum for numerology, astrology, or kabbalistic magic. This poster is probably a demon-worshipping jewish mystic.

>>9751757
Absolutely wrong. If you are posting about mathematics, you are posting about mathematics. It's just that simple, retard.

Just because you got a phD in mathematics and you never studied the mystical, or psychological aspects of numbers, does not mean you get to comment negatively on someone who does.

Go read Aristotle's Metaphysics you stupid retard. I read calculus all day, I don't have time for this aspergic nonsense regarding some stupid faggot who can't see that what I've said regarding the numbers unity, dyad, and triad are indeed correct.

>>9751762
>>>/x/

you simply can't communicate with math alone
math is about numbers and whatnot not even necessarily quantities

>>9751764
smart
>>9751763
dumb

>>9751749
>mfw thinking about numbers

>>9750100
yayyyyy
F(U)c-K/Y0(u)

>>9751721
this guy gets it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-GUAx7EHkU

>almost 5000 videos spread over 3 channels, all between 5mins and 1 hour long, average 20 minutes
>deciphers the secrets of the universe
>ascended

>>9751510
And you are still unable to read it.

>>9750100
Why are mods not deleting these low value bait threads? Does /sci/ even have mods?

>>9752369
it does
but they hate the board so much, they would rather see it suffer

>>9750100
it's a language game

>>9750108
Tons of fields of mathematics deal largely in qualitative questions.

>>9752637
why do you reply to one of the first post, didn't you red any of the other replies in the thread?
describe mathematically how you rank the replies itt in terms of relevance and answerability. define those two items mathematically and dont use any bad language boy

>>9750100
And... I just remembered why I left this website...

i understood this years ago and my IQ is 80

>>9750100
It describes things, it is a lang

>>9750100
>Single line post
Fucking garbage.
And I hate math.

>>9754703
my shitty bait thread is defying all expectations
thank you based /sci/

>>9754699
it doesn't

Sage this trash. It’s a rule violation and everyone should report it.

>>9754844
>its a rule violation

>>9754844
How exactly is it a rule violation? Announcing/implying a report is against the rules..

>>9750230
>Dirac
It was actually Feynman who said that

>>9750100
I understand it's a thing that average people like to spout out about, but a language is just a convention that applies to something in order to give it a consistant meaning across multiple people. Math is like a convention of thinking, and just like most spoken languages it has a written counterpart which allows you to convert written symbols into the original convention

>>9750915
Plain wrong. Math is a representation of human ideas, nothing more, nothing less.

>>9751497
>Is "English" a language?
Yes.

>>9757919
Wrong. Archetypal numerical relations need to exist prior to expressing any ideas at all.

>>9757949
>what are axioms
Relations do not exist in the very meaning of the word. They can be made up as you wish. Of course it's useful to do so in a manner that descripe our perception of (physical) reality however that's not a necessary trait of relations.

>>9751438
What is this pokemon called?

>>9751438
You fap to this creature don't you