/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9722950
Why do we need people to explore stupidity?

We know that these altered states of consciousness breed more vice than anything of value, often leading people astray from being a productive citizens and thus having a strong, virtuous nation

Live in a drug-infested city and understand the total damning nature of drugs before you begin to comment how we need to legalize drugs because you smoked some weed and dropped some weed in your suburban home you fucking basement dwelling faggot

>>9722963
Dude you need to smoke some weed lol!

>>9722963
80% of breakthrough experiences induced by psilocybin were powerful enough to completely stop drug abuse in treated individuals. Ketamine study of alcohol abuse was a massive success.

Drug-infested city would logically see some improvement after having legal acces to safer and cheaper drugs. Drug abuse is almost never the main problem. Check out the work of Dr. Carl Hart who dedicated his life to solving the addiction problem. According to modern findings, medical science doesn't know safer, more potent and cheaper to produce substances than psilocybin and cannabinoids contained within the cannabis.

>>9722950
I would also legalise every drug, I'm not a user myself, but I believe making them illegal just creates a bad market, and the durgs being illegal isn't really going to stop anyone from using it, but the user will just have a chance of getting some laced, impure drug etc, as far as I know making any drug legal hasn't increased it's popularity

>>9722963
>Live in a drug-infested city
And see all the people who are poor because illegal drugs are so expensive?
And see all the people who die because sources of illegal drugs are unclean and lead to poisoning or overdose?
And see all the crime created by a booming illegal market?

>>9723007
>muh based black scientist

>>9722950
Agreed, prohibition is a complete fucking failure, the only choice is to legalize everything, tax, educate and control really dangerous stuff like heroin.

>>9722950
Just build a floatation tank. Drugs should be illegal to sell. Warn kids not to take them. No punishment for use.

>>9723311
This just pumps more money into the black market and drug dealers

>>9723316
No if you make something illegal and taboo kids are more likely to try it.

Selling to children should be a capital punishment. Adults should be able to make LSD for their own use but there's no need since floatation tanks exist.

>>9722950
They should be legal because the most profound experience of my life was riding around the desert during sunset time on half a tab of acid. I cried literal tears of joy at the beauty of the world and cried for humanity and our plight. I'm not a more compassionate and thoughtful person as a result of this experience and it was an important point in my life

LSD being illegal is a crime against humanity as far as I'm concerned, I mean this unironically.

And no, I'm not a "dude weed lmao" druggy, I haven't taken any drugs for years and have a good STEM career. I just remember those times fondly is all and they expanded my view of reality tremendously. Nobody can just discount these experiences people like me have had off-hand.

>>9723331
>I'm not a more compassionate and thoughtful person as a result
I'm now*, mistype

>>9723331
Furthermore, regardless of the affects of drugs, making them illegal just doesn't provide any benefits to society. It just creates a black market where criminals provide supply to meet demand, and over-fills prisons. Drug illegality should be re-assessed and psychedelics in particular need to be made legal. This includes weed

>>9723298
Morphine should be available in case of heroin as it's less potent, giving users more room for error.

>>9723311
>>9723325
This obviously doesn't work. There is no reason drugs should be prohibited from sale. Also comparing LSD to floating tanks only gets you so far in having your opinions anything but completely dismissed.

I used to think that drugs were cool and were opportunity to explore our sense and shit
On my last trip on lsd i realized that this was bullshit and that i was juste stupidly high and my brain was not working properly
So i quitted this shit, only weed now.

>>9722963
fpbp

druggies GTFO!

>>9722950
Why all drugs? Some should stay illegal, and some should stay legal. Also some that are currently illegal should be made legal and vice versa.

>>9722950
desu in the uk its not legal to take or own a drug unless its for commercial use. which in some senses is not disimilar to other commercial laws.

but in ur spirit, du not agree maybe we should also give proper education about credit card use too? probs causes more suffering than weed. debts etc.

>>9723007
you neglect the idea that our problems are contextualised in the world you know now. Drug-infested city is not our world and given the non-linearity of how complex systems and genes work you cant expect to generalise. we might have different problems in a new world. just like how similarr drug policies have different effect in new places.

i think if you have a drug infested city you need to tell me why and how people take the drugs and then ill judge. maybe they take it like alcohol which isnt as bad as now. but also the nature of the drug counts. sniffing a handful or two handfuls of lines of coke is alot easier than 10 pints of beer.

>>9722950
illegal, hedonism is immoral
all people should only be working towards a post-retardation society
colonizing space and whatnot

>>9723331
dude you can say the same about any drug. i remember so many times on alcohol fondly and ive had times on it or even coke that have changed how i think.

>>9723551
Yes, schools should definitely educate people about proper financial management.

>>9723557
It is undeniable that legalization is always a net positive. History is the best evidence.

>>9723558
You can make an argument that the objective moral thing to do is trying to decrease overall suffering in the universe. If that's the case (and there is no reason to not be) you are causing more suffering and are therefore immoral (since you have the choice) when you keep drugs illegal.
Space colonization profits from currently illegal drugs. Many fields of science do in fact, the probably most important one, AI research, is full of people microdosing psychedelics.

>>9723331
Acid is cool, but come on man don't drive while high

Drug war has been an absolute disgusting waste of money and time that has succeeded in absolutely no positive gain. Why the fuck should the government get to dictate what I put in my body, especially when many of these substances are PROVEN to be essentially harmless, certainly less harmful than some of this shit that pharma pumps out.

Educate, allow people to grow their own plants, provide high quality clean products with clear dosage instructions and appropriate disclaimers. Tax it and use funds to provide medical care and professional comfortable places to take your drug of choice.

Jesus Christ this shit is not rocket science.

>B-but anon weed makes you lazy

Fucking kill yourself.

>>9722950
>some drugs are legal
>some are illegal
>who decides?
... a bunch of politicians paid-off by BigPharma
to protect their obscene profits.

>>9722950
Legalize all drugs and let Darwin take over. Natural selection will get rid of drug addicts.

>>9724077
>let Darwin take over

I think this philosophy should be applied a lot more.

>drugs will ruin your life!
>that's why if you use them, we'll arrest you and put you in prison, ruining any 'career' you'd ever have and condemning you into a future of poverty
lol. I'm sure those wayward drug-users appreciate your help.

>>9724175
gotta keep the private prison system full of people on drug possession charges, so they can stay afloat with government money, or else they could go bankrupt and the lobbyists won't allow that

I am torn, because there are drugs that have a higher potential to be life ruining than others, like say, methamphetamine compared to weed, yet I think that the "weed" cause, highlights how little the school system teaches about drugs and I don't think we can properly appreciate the impact it has on our culture.

I, myself, not an American italian (for cultural context), was taught to see with the same brush all drugs, but much like real life is shades of grey, some do not cause addiction, others is much easier, then you can also find out that if you live a fulfilling enough life, with opportunities you can escape the addiction, you won't need them (see mentioned mouse experiment https://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html )

I think the government should ask itself, not what it can do to kill/arrest all who sell a drug, (look at America's costs of the war on drugs versus the cost to produce cocaine), but what can it do to make it redundant? What brings people closer to drug? What makes them so compelling and the only way out?

A lot of research has been done on these subjects, but do we act on this?
Here in Italy, Weed is illegal, despite no people dying from it, despite the fact that it does not cause addiction like other drugs (of course it can cause it, just like food and alcohol and computers), no withdrawal problems, or long terms problems like Meta does, in America the opioid painkiller crysis is a bigger problem, the myth of "if you use Weed you are going to move to more potent drugs" was busted by another research...but then I had to hear a general of the "Carabinieri" (a police/military force in Italy) talk about his (anecdotal) evidence using these myths like we are in the 80s or something.

>>9722963
fpbp

>>9723130
>And see all the people who die because sources of illegal drugs are unclean and lead to poisoning or overdose
and nothing of value was lost.

>>9724262
The Stand by Stephen King has a small passage dedicated to a character who is like you. A 26 years old virgin woman who kills herself by improperly handling a handgun. And nothing of value was lost.

Drugs are a crutch for the weak willed

>>9722950
They should all be legal because the idea of the government enforcing a paternalistic philosophy "just because morals" is dumb and limits personal freedom in this way. If someone wants to ruin their life with a meth addiction they'll do it with any means needed. It can really only improve the health outcomes for the actual drug users.

>>9722963
>vices are bad
>people should be productive and "virtuous"
>doesnt understand anything about economics or human psychology
Jesus christ you are dumb

>>9724059
>>9724175
>>9724509
>>9724075
Drug threads bait in all the brainlets huh?

>x is legal so y should be too
>it's big pharma bro!
>weed is totally harmless
>gubment gotta keep the prisons full

Same shit tier arguments every damn time >>>/x/

>>9724589
You can't dismiss the truth just by adding meme arrows. I work in the medical field and the way it works is in the best interests of the pharmaceutical industry, as well as other industries with monopoly on drugs (like the alcohol industry). There is no reason to not support business incentive that produces safer living conditions and economic growth as a byproduct of its existence. Prison industry is clearly profiting from the war on drugs but the prison industry is, as anything that is profiting from the war on drugs, not lined with interests of law abiding citizens.

>>9722950

As usual, I think a grey area is best. Some drugs that are used recreationaly have no real reason to be illegal, like weed, shrooms, and even LSD. However, things like cocaine, heroin, Xanax, meth, that's all pretty terrible when abused.

>>9722950
Portugal legalized all drugs in 2001 I think it was, AND....Drug use stayed about the same.
Fact is prohibition is retarded.
Its origins are religious moralism which is usually wrong in every conceivable way.
But what if you're staunchly religious Christian/Muslim/Jew? Is there a good religious argument for or against prohibition?
Well how about this:
Who gave the first prohibition?
Well that was: Thou shalt not eat from the tree of good and evil...
Ok then, how many people did He have to police?
Well two of course.
And how well did that work out? ...................
....
Soooooo.... if God can't prohibit two people from eating a fruit, why the hell are we wasting our time?

>>9724097
So anarchism?

>>9724589
Its common sense, tryna meme it doesn't make it false.

>>9724710
God gave us the free will to exercise that choice. Because of our failure to not eat a fruit, it has led to man's downfall.

Ever since our banishment from the Garden of Eden, we have had the choice to exercise our free will to rectify our downfall and improve our condition. Failure to exercise our free will correctly brings about vice and debauchery like the nightmare of Sodom & Gomorrah.

Civilizations are built upon laws. Without laws on how we should exercise our free will, then we are all destined to be turned into pillars of salt.

>>9724710
no it didn't. You don't go to jail if you are caught using but it's illegal like any other country

>>9724689
a lot of prescription drugs are terrible when abused as well, I don't think they should be illegal. imo there should be too categories, prescription and plain legal

>>9724589
You will get really far with non sequitur meme points.

Require drugs to be heavily tested before they're approved.
Require people to take a test/course to earn a license which allows them to buy that specific drug, teach them the proper dose/not to mix/ect.
Require a back ground check - despite what stoners think weed can actually cause bad shit like schizophrenia if you have a genetic predisposition

And add in programs that would give addicts a safe injection and help wean them off some of the harsher drugs onto more affordable ones.

>>9724932
Harsh and affordable is not even slightly connected. A morphine vial is under $1, growing pounds of cannabis may in fact be more expensive yet I would recommend cannabis over opiates. Regardless of that, people don't usually start shooting, they are popping pills.
Why would I require a background check to inject a marijuana. Would I require a background check to buy a glass of wine, smoke shisha with friends, pick a snickers bar or even a cup of coffee? If not what is the ultimate (and hopefully objective) parameter to determine whether a licence or a background check is required?
I don't know how far objectivity goes in the research for a link between schizophrenia (which in itself is an outdated term) and cannabis use, lets say it does in fact increase the probability of schizophrenia or potentiate various latent forms of patopsychology in individuals. Is it a reason to restrict someone's use of cannabis? Why? What if that happens to be the next Dostojevskij?

>>9722950
Burn all the laws, on drugs
>legal(privatized)
>Taxed
>Basic education
>Law abiding citizen.
Okay chairman mao
Liberals are the most effective authoritarians.
>strong, virtuous nation
Degenerate enlightenment ideas pls go.
>>9723557
>non-linearity of how complex systems and genes work you cant expect to generalise
Bad sophistry. You have the vaguest idea of how these things work and are trying to rationalize that as normal.

It's a complex issue and therefore has no direct solution. There certainly shouldn't be total illegality and hard rules such as the systems in Thailand, no evidence suggests that it works and frankly the government shouldn't have that much power to determine what you put into your own body.

On the other hand, an idealist libertarian solution is also bound to fail. Drugs can be incredibly destructive and to let them go unchecked and even fostered by nebulous corporations is not the way forward. (see A Scanner Darkly by PKD)

I think an effective framework would include the following:
>Classifying drugs correctly, so that weed and other less harmful substances are taken off the 'wanted' list
>Changing the opinions of society so that hard drug addicts are seen as victims, which they mostly are. There should be socialized health system to look after and return these people to normalcy.
>Probably an outright ban on the most dangerous substances is warranted. There has to be a line drawn somewhere. If a chemical gave you the pleasure of a trillion orgasms and heroin combined but you died a week after taking it, it would just wreck society.

Even if my opinions are wrong, it's clear that the current way of handling things isn't working so there does need to be a change regarding drugs.

>>9722950
Legal with no medical treatment once it starts to destroy you.

>>9723998
this isn't about money it's about focus

>>9725367
>Drugs can be incredibly destructive and to let them go unchecked and even fostered by nebulous corporations is not the way forward. (see a work of fucking fiction.)

>>9725367
>It's a complex issue and therefore has no direct solution.
Legalization is a direct solution with immediate benefits. The main reason why lets say opiates are problematic is because they are illegal, expensive, and potentially dangerous, all of which can be removed completely from the equation with legalization. At the same time it's good to know there are safer alternatives (to morphine) like kratom.

Morphine is much safer than heroin, heroin is much safer than fentanyl. Therefore morphine should be legal, fentanyl only accessible to a specialist The most dangerous drugs are already completely legal anyways.

You are wrong though. Rat park experiment is confirming what is already known, drugs are never source of the problem but they tend to complicate things especially when they have unknown chemistry and are not cheap..

The best solution to reduce drug related problems is to make the most well-studied drugs illegal and allow let the least-studied be handed out like candy.

>>9722950

The legalization of "microdoses" should be explored. As for "normal" doses:

http://alfre.dk/the-pleasure-center/

>He set up an experiment, similar to the earlier one that led to the discovery in the first place, in which rats were able to self-administer a shock to a part of their brain by pushing a lever. Depending on where the electrode was attached, the rats showed a wide range of responses. Olds found some areas (small areas in the mid-brain and adjacent sections of the thalamus and hypothalamus) that when stimulated, produced an avoidance response in the rats. Other areas (such as the posterior and anterior hypothalamus) instead produced the arousing sensation.
>In some cases, the sensation was evidently very intense–some rats would press the lever as many as 7000 times per hour until collapsing from exhaustion.
>This drive for self-stimulation was even greater than that of hunger. In a subsequent experiment, Olds found that rats would cross a highly electrified floor to receive the stimulation–a floor that even rats starved for 24 hours would not cross for food.

>>9722950
neither, but I don't see how sending kids and young adults to prison, fining and slapping them with a fine and criminal record helps anyone

>>9725473
morphine is still dangerous. just because its les dangerous than heroin doesnt mean its dangerous. i dont see how legalization solves that issue. legalization is good with drugs that arent addictive. but if you legalise opiates. we already have a whole generation of disenfranchised people. now its easier for them to get to addictive opiates. whats rat park experiment.

>>9723331
you do realise that systematic drug policy cant work on anecdotes. asshole.

>>9725574
stfu bitch.

>>9725635
When drugs aren't legal, teenagers huff spray paint.

>>9723331
For every person with a good experience is someone who had a bad trip that ruined their life. Fuck off.

>>9725672
huffing spray paint is less dangerous than heroin and probably cocaine or meth or alcohol.

>>9725672
huffing spray paint is less dangerous than heroin and probably cocaine or meth or alcohol. not all drugs have to be illegal though.

>>9725730
bad for your brain, kills brain cells from lack oxygen

>>9725736
alcohol does the same.
huffing spray paint is dangerous but danger is an ambiguous word. it isnt dangerous enough to be a widely known educated about problem in kids and adolescents. it can kill you yes but thats very rare. alcohol and other drugs still by far produce way more damage to people and society overall. mentally, physically, socially.

>>9724030
Bike riding anon not driving

>>9725719
Then they can choose to never use it again

"For every good skydiving experience there's another person who died"

Outlaw it?

"For every good peanut butter experience there's another person who had an allergic reaction and died'

Outlaw it?

Brainlet

>>9725784
I don't think you could compare the two like that... alcohol can do alot of damage over time but huffing spraypaint can cause alot of damage to the brain one use.

>>9724589
You're ignoring my point, you big dummy. If drug prohibition was about protecting people from themselves I don't see how tossing offenders into the criminal justice system and destroying their lives via legal means is truly helping them. I mean, sure, they aren't dying of an overdose or anything, instead they're having years of their lives taken away and put in a concrete box or metal cage, treated like animals, possibly raped, and then when they're let out are now second-class citizens, more likely to re-offend in the US at least because here there is no rehabilitation only punishment. Also, with their criminal record they're probably never going to earn anything above a minimum wage. So tell me how you're helping them.

Are you helping someone if they were ready to kill themselves but you grabbed the gun out of their hand, but then tortured them for decades after that? Technically you saved their life, but are you genuinely helping them, and are your motives altruistic at their core? I rather doubt it. So don't church it up and stop lying about it.

>>9725985
You can't argue with idiot anti-drug people

>>9722963
You've obviously never actually researched the subject.

Listen to any scientist talk about their drug experiences and you'll notice the same thread in all of them. They talk about how they were able to take away from the experience more than they started with. How stepping out of their normal perception of reality allowed them to appreciate that perspective more when they returned to it.

>>9722950
To answer your question OP, all drugs should be legal because as humans we deserve the right to determine how we experience reality. The government shouldn't have the right to tell you how to use your own brain.

>>9726033
except Feynman and every other notable physicist
feynman even admitted to trying lsd but "sidestepped" speaking more about it. i assume this was because since he already had a brain he had nothing to gain from lsd.

your delusional view of drugs should be legal because muh meaning is retarded and frankly just outs you as a drug user because nobody who hadn't hallucinated that meaning through drugs would think it

>>9725635
The main danger of morphine is unknown dosage. If you buy a street produced batch that is actually a dilluted fentanyl you may have a problem, because fentanyl is 50 times more potent than heroin. The playing field changes completely if your batch goes through a strict quality control, you know exactly what are you getting, in what amount, and when it's for $1 + margin. This is not a rocket science.

>>9725841
Alcohol poisoning and accidents caused by alcohol can be fatal.

>>9725635
Rat park is a reaction to the infamous experiment where a rat is placed into a cage and given access to regular water and heroin. In all cases the rat overdoses. Now if you place rats into interesting environments with lots of tubes, toys and other rats, they never exhibit the same behavior.

The same thing is observed in humans. Experiments where people, who have otherwise satisfying life, are shooting heroin are normal functional members of the society. It's just that they shoot heroin on the side. It is already well understood that addiction is not an issue, it's almost always the socioeconomic situation, which is further exacerbated when society is punishing offenders of victimless crimes as criminals, and by expensive and potentially toxic drugs. There is no single reason why drugs should be illegal, yet many why they should not.

>>9726067
http://marijuana-uses.com/mr-x/
https://www.maps.org/news-letters/v08n3/08330hof.html
You are wrong.

>>9722963
agree except alcohol is way worse than some stuff thats legal. assuming youre in favour of making alcohol illegal

>>9725174
>Would I require a background check to buy a glass of wine
A background check to disallow people with a history of drunk driving or abuse would make a significant difference in alcohol related accidents.

>>9722950
>Do you think drugs should be legal or illegal and why?
Yes, because making them illegal doesn't actually help anyone, and it creates a shitton of other violent crime, and wastes a shitton of money, and helps create an atmosphere where we lose our civil liberties, and because we could better spend that money on other programs to actually help people. It should also be legalized just on general principle - self determination, harm principle, all that jazz.

>>9726296
Background check doesn't show any legal problems, this person is a law abiding citizen. Can he purchase a bottle of heroin for his personal use?

>>9725649

Good rebuttal, junkie trash.

ITT: Addiction to "good drugs" doesn't really exist, SO LET ME AT THOSE DRUGS, MANG, LET'S GET LITTY

>>9722963
This.

>>9723298
What makes heroin special? Because you read about it being super spooky in Trainspotting? Nah legalise it too.

>>9723331
> compassionate
So essentially you took drugs, hallucinated, stuck alex grey posters up in your dorm and now you are a pro-refugee cuck.

Beautiful.

>>9726702

>>9724772
>God gave us the free will to exercise that choice
John Calvin would like to have a few words with you, christlet

>>9722963
I came here to write this, but since you already did, fuck it - I will play the devil's advocate. Hopefully you're still here for a discussion.

Do you think people in general are unable to handle their drug use, and choose which drugs to use and which not, given enough information about them?
Don't you think we would have much more productive societies if we had over-the-counter hard stimulants available for everyday use? Remember Erdos?

>>9727300
Calvin is a heretic

>>9726283
no you are for generalizing based off two people. carl sagan publicly never stated doing drugs including marijuana and as it happens admitted to never doing lsd in the link you posted. as well albert hoffman also did lsd then said he would do it every week after his first bad trip. he coincidentally never actually did anything else in his life. hmmmmmmmmm i wonder if there's a pattern with him doing lsd and literally doing nothing else after discovering it.

so out of the links you posted you proved that carl sagan didn't do lsd and albert hoffman did lsd but also didn't do anything after starting it. btw he discovered lsd long before anyone knew they could get high from it

>>9722950
All drugs are legal but any health issues stemming from drug use voids any free healthcare

>>9727672
>voids any free healthcare
Good thing we dont have any here in the US anyway.

>>9727552
Yeah whatever christlet

>>9727882
they treat first charge later when life is at risk though right? if so it would also void that