/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9687074
hunger

>>9687074
Predation is a natural instinct in lions.

>>9687074
Why do you assume a lion would have the same morals as us if it were sapient? Even many humans don't respect or sympathize with other animals and it would be too easy to write that off as simply a lack of intelligence on their part.

In fact, even humans who subscribe to humanist principles could readily turn violent, not only against other species, but against each other. During the French revolution, thousands of people were slaughtered in the name of a brighter future.

I don't think you really can reconcile your animal nature with morality. Part of growing up is coming to terms with the world instead of fighting against it.

>>9687074
>Not killing other forms of life is respectable
no it's not cuck. accept your place on the food chain or get eaten by someone who will

>>9687074
Also, veganism isn't objectively the most 'true' philosophy, you disingenuous pseudo-intellectual faux-philosopher.

>>9687074
>lion with the mental ability to philosophize
If all the other animals are still dumb as rocks then there's no reason to grant them moral consideration.

Essentially it boils down to need hence why veganism is strictly a communist philosophy. A lion needs to eat meat. It is a hyper carnivore. Dogs and cats that live with vegan owners are often fed a vegan diet because they dont NEED to eat meat. However, who is to tell me what I need and don't need.

Also there is no biological basis for veganism. Compared to average American diet, veganism is clearly healthier. But how does it fare against Mediterranean or Okinawan diets? What about anthropology. There is a lot of evidence that suggested that human brain develop occurred due to eating meat because although it is POSSIBLE to find equal amounts of protein in alternatives, meat is simply an easier food source for protein, b12, essential for brain development. In addition, the act of hunting for humans is an extremely social activity that has allowed humans to become far more socialized than any other animal.

So there is a biological argument for eating meat whereas for vegans, the only one of our ancestors that was solely vegan was probably Australopithecus and he ate ants...

>>9687150
I'd say go pescetarian if it wasn't for the state of our oceanic ecology.

>>9687157
Eat farmed salmon then. It's healthy and good for you. Lower mercury content than wild salmon too.

Vat-grown meat is on the horizon. Nature is undoubtedly evil, but perhaps not unconquerable.

>>9687161
I thought the omega-3 fatty acids were lower in farmed?

Try fasting for a couple days, you will understand.

Or just think about the poor bastards in Ukraine who had to eat eachother during the holodomor.

Moralizing about such things is utterly pointless.

>>9687172
Haven't heard. I mean compared to eating burgers everyday, practically anything is better. I live in Vancouver and I eat farmed salmon almost every week. It's easy to make, cheap and tastes good with rice. inb4 chink

>>9687188
Fair enough, I'd rather a line caught wild salmon. That way, it isn't harming the environment and is still the "real deal".

>>9687187
Incorrect.

>>9687187
I wouldn't say it's pointless since humanity is approaching the point of no longer needing to kill for sustenance. At least certain demographics are.

Its easy, either it comes to the conclusion that his life is worth more the the one he extinguishes for his survival, or he dies too.
Spoiler alert, he probably reaches the first conclusion, because every single one of his ancestors did (if we speak about a race of "smart lions").

>>9687196
So, you're going to live on rocks and air? Good plan.

you make sure to only eat bugs, since they don't have feelings

>>9687161
>Farmed salmon is ecologically decent

>>9687300
Who are quoting.

>>9687097
This.
It's all about perceived abundance of resources.
A society that never has to worry about their next meal has the luxury of pacifism and equality. Survival is such a given that it is an alien concept for most.
A society that struggles to provide a meal for everyone tears itself apart the moment anyone notices a weakness in another. Survival is what's for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You do whatever you can to stay alive.

As soon as you remove all the luxury, security, and resources of our most civilized societies, you get a pile of animals willing to kill and eat each other to survive.

>>9687074
Its not about not harming animals

Its about not supporting a system of agriculture in which most of the food energy produced by crops goes to feed non-human animals. At least for me anyway

>>9687357
>eat each other
wrong. humans aren't as savage as you think we are. We realized a long time ago that its actually useful to work together as a team.

>>9687371
That's what I'm talking about.
Even the best logical rationale erodes once resources are scarce enough.
It would take a very extreme situation to erode our social instincts, but if you're hours away from starving to death, and the only other person with you is sick, weak, starving, and unfit to aid you in any way, your brain simply tells you to do what you need to do to live, otherwise, you die. If there have been any people who chose pacifism in that scenario, we wouldn't know about it, because they didn't live.

>>9687074
>scientific and moral argument for veganism
lol the basedboy sticks again

>>9687357
>>9687097
So you guys agree the morality is subjective. It's nothing you could put down in a hard textbook or encyclopedia. It's not something you could throw down on the table like trigonometry and say "this is definitively the way it works"

>>9687388
>We wouldn't know about it, because they didn't live
Kek

>>9687357
pretty much everything people do with their lives from start to finish is actually survival instincts. being social is how to survive in modern society. there's give and take in all human relationships

>>9687883
morality is a fiction created by inferiors to hold back the few superior men. I actually sensed this in them. it's a means to control others. people love controlling others. the earth is a giant rock floating around space and hell is other people. nature is cruel. people are uncategorically uncaring. they're so fond of meaningless pleasantries because they're afraid of themselves.

all influence is a bad influence.

>>9687074
>I understand the scientific and moral arguments for veganism.
I do not.

>Not killing other forms of life is respectable
If you disregard *everything* about nature maybe.

>>9687107
can confirm

>be me 11 y/o

>eat a cucumber because a vegan faggot held me down and forced his beliefs on me

>start to feel myself feminizing and see my muscles hair and sexual rogans start withering away

>BOOOOM

>lightning fast meat-eating object crashes through the roof

>its a hungry lion

>yfw

animals are out of their element, but only physically. you were LUCKY (and it was only luck) to be born human, we must change technology and create diets for carnivorous animals so they can use technology & eat non-carnivorous diets
what would you have to do if humans didn't come to your aid? you would have to starve yourself until you were attacked by an immoral animal or you saw an animal do something absolutely retarded and destructive, you'd eat them

>>9687074
>scientific arguments for veganism

>>9687074
Vegans don't do it for morals they do it so they can preach that they're better than you

>>9687369
If you don't eat local produce than your philosophy is garbage because the amount of pollution you contribute is as moraly wrong as eating animals

>>9687074
Natural instinct is not necessarily moral. The natural instinct of every men on the planet when they see an attractive thot is to copulate with her, but 99.999% of them keep it in their pants

>>9689071
Survival instinct is a bit different though. Humans do all kinds of fucked up shit to stay alive like eating the already dead family members (this was documented in the soviet famines).

>>9689071
>every men on the planet
>but 99.999% of them keep it in their pants
you should really study global demographics a bit before saying outrageous shit like that
white men are only 5% of global population

>>9689107
>this was documented
unironically kill yourself

>>9689107
Arctic tribes also would regularly eat old people during harsh winters.

You have species of animal that literally eat their own kind. Veganism is essentially just virtue signalling.

>>9689199
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww7km7ADqAo

>>9689143
You seem to be the one with the suicidal tendencies, not me.

>>9689199
>You have species of animal that literally eat their own kind

>>9687161
farmed salmon is far worse for the environment you fucking brainlet. what the fuck do you think they are feeding them? fish, that have been caught. they also pollute the fucking water with their shit and for some reason we are making GMO salmon that can escape and pollute the wild gene pool. Also they get diseases like fucking sea lice. jesus christ you fucking moron I hope you haven't been eating farmed salmon. all salmon is an environmental disaster. It is irresponsible to eat it.

>>9687074
>I understand the scientific and moral arguments for veganism.
No scientific argument supports veganism. Moral arguments are gay too.

>Not killing other forms of life is respectable.
Explain to me how to eat a potato without killing anything.

>You aren't evolved and you don't have the technology to thrive on plants.
And the teeth to chew plants correctly. And the digestive system to metabolize plants as well as meat.

>How do you deal with the internal cognitive dissonance of respecting other animals while also harming them in order to live?
"Embrace your spot in the food chain, you cuckold. Be happy you aren't a wimpy faggot mouse."

>cognitive dissonance
How's /r/skeptics going lately?

Very simple. Survival of the fittest is beneficial for the lion's prey, because they're eliminating the unfit, which allows the fit to survive without competing for limited food. And if the lion was able to catch the prey, it was obviously not fit enough.

Even plants want the animals to die- bone meal is the ideal fertilizer.

>>9687074
Lets change the scenario to one that is almost the same. Lets say you are a human that can only eat other humans or you will die the question then becomes is it ethical to kill if you yourself will die otherwise?

>>9687074
>How do you deal with the internal cognitive dissonance of respecting other animals while also harming them in order to live?
You realize that you have a right to life as well, and thus you have a right to kill and eat your prey. However, any cruelty or excess oversteps that right and should be avoided. You kill swiftly and eat only what is necessary, and never hunt for pleasure.

>>9689989
Also, there are species like Vultures which depend on your hunting skills for their survival.

>>9689989
So lets say you have an xbox, and you have a right to that xbox, then I take it, now I have a right to that xbox?

>>9689993
Do you need an Xbox to live?

I’m just saying if you think it’s unfair to lose your life isn’t just as unfair to take that same privilege away from another? That hypocrisy at its most basic level

>>9687074
The same way hunters respect the animals they kill. This doesn't cover everyone who hunts but most people I've talked to who hunt feel a deep connection with the animals they kill, they love them. Not to mention animal killers are often linked to conservation efforts.

>>9687074

>>9689990
This guy gets it.

Look at what happened when wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q

Others depend on you to do your duty, Mr.Lion.

That’s like you getting cancer and instead of accepting your cruddy fate you inflict on someone else. you got the unlucky draw doesn’t mean you can steal someone elses hand

>>9687074
>>9687097
Lions are a social species with empathy within their own, and the ability to adopt pets. If they were to develop sapience and larger societies, they might very well develop similar moral qualms and quandaries as we do, for the same reasons. Empathy is what all our morality grew out of.

I presume they might, much as we sometimes do, instead aim at minimizing the suffering of their livestock. Perhaps defending the idea that healthy happy livestock, that have a quick death, or healthier than those that suffer their whole lives - again, much as we do.

Though the main problem I always see with the vegan morality, is they seem to have this delusion that the livestock population would just slowly widdle away from attrition, were everyone to stop eating animals. The real problem is that there's a market cliff, so what you'd end up with instead is billions of animals slaughtered in short order, creating the largest animal genocide in human history - and indeed, any history, going back to the KT extinction event. There's simply too many of em, and they are sitting on some of the most valuable fertile land around, so it's not as if they are going to be allowed to live there.

>>9690026
Are you kidding? how many chicken to fill a bucket? This quantity of animals would not exist without the meat industry artificially inseminating animals.

>>9690028
Yes, but it does exist, and therein lies the problem. There are over a billion cows on this planet - they collectively outweigh us, and we collectively outweigh the land dwelling dinosaurs at the peek of the Jurassic. (Hell, our cats and dogs alone collectively outweigh all the wild land mammals on the planet.)

That's a whole lotta death the vegans are asking for, and given the sort of arguments they make, I don't think they realize it. Outside of a few specialist ranches for the rich and some zoos, all the large domesticated livestock would go extinct in a very short period of time, just as soon as the borderline ranches sounded the canary in the coalmine to the rest of the industry, and they realized they need to switch to more long term profitable uses for that land - something farmers are rather notorious for doing.

>>9690037
Yes but that same amoun plus more would die if continued if anything those animals would be given a humane death by euthanasia rather than having thier throats slit and bleed out not knowing why.

>>9687287
You can synthesize burger meat bruh

Get serious

Respect/love is about the 'other' and their needs/well-being.
In this case, the lion needs to consider what role it can play for the sake of others (if it truly wishes to be selfless). That would be to eat and kill the weak antelope so that the antelope species can grow stronger as a whole.

Every part of nature has a role to play, and every ability/desire/input has a necessary function (necessity birthed invention). If the lion wishes to do good, then it must understand and seek out the role that it should be playing with its unique abilities and desires.

Everything in nature was designed as such with purpose.
Debates on philosophy are mainly for humans whose role is not 'within' nature but above it, as a guardian. Therefore we, as humans, can debate such matters, but animals/plants/etc need not as they are already perfectly suited their requires functions

'Get serious' was addressed to the lion, not the OP

:)

>>9687074
God damn OP, you sure are a dumb nigger. You were being sincere too, I'm so sorry.

Vegans only practice "convenient" moralism. They aren't consistent in what can't and can be eaten. Here are some arbitrary criteria that vegans use:

1) Anything with a nervous system.
2) Anything that can feel pain.
3) Anything with a complex nervous system.
4) Anything that's multicellular.

What they never tell you is that they also draw the line at convenience. They ignore the fact that many animals die from the harvesting combines used in farms. They ignore the fact that there are microscopic organisms with nervous systems and are multicellular and many of these are killed unknowingly by people everyday.

I agree with vegans that a vegan diet is better for you and the environment but we did evolve to eat meat.
I just don't see why it has to be a movement with an ideology strapped on.
Eating pesticide-free vegetables is common sense. I agreed with everything they had to say until they made it a thing and started trying to brainwash people. They're basically PETA. Like those vegan docs on Netflix are extreme exaggerations and some of it is just start up false. Dicks.

>>9690129
The fact that plant and microbes have living cells in them does not mean they feel. They have about as much chance of being alive as a rock. My fingernails and hair don’t have a soul. When imprisoned I went without eating for 12 days because they refused to feed me vegan. If I saw the slightest hint that anything else was alive you better believe I would refrain from killing it!

>>9690062
I assume they'd just slaughter them in the usual fashion - but yes, as the human population grows, so would there, so in the long term, suffering averted I suppose... Albeit, by extinction.

>>9690424
Think of all the suffering wild animals are going through - 90% of them being on the brink of starvation, suffering from disease, and those few that do live to an old age, suffering a slow, painful death with little hope for euthenasia.

By this vegan logic, we should kill all the wild animals too - and make it a priority. End animal suffering via animal antinatalism today!

While excusing yourself completely is best, I don't agree that death in all forms is particularly bad, certainly quality of life is more important than the act of death which is an inevitable outcome of all life.

So if your species absolutely must kill to exist, I would argue killing in ways which minimize the negative effects of your actions would be most moral and if you couldn't exist without acting fundamentally immoral than peaceful extinction is the only course of action your species.

>>9690539
>if you couldn't exist without acting fundamentally immoral than peaceful extinction is the only course of action your species
What if you're also the last, best hope for survival of all life on a planet that is ultimately doomed, be you there or not?

>>9690550
Not that guy but your moral argument for planetary survival applies just as effectively at interplanetary or even interstellar levels, until you reach the limit where the universe's existence is dependent on yours.
At which point you become One With The Universe and can no longer kill anything else without killing a part of yourself, because there is logically no "else" to speak of.

>>9687074
suicide

>>9687107
imagine having such a fragile sense of self-worth that eating at McDonalds makes you feel powerful

>>9687150
>veganism is strictly a communist philosophy
god I fucking hate this place

>>9687388
>I'm an absolute piece of shit so I assume everyone else is too

>>9687916
don't worry, life will get better after high school

>>9687979
>>9689199
>I'm no better than a fucking dog so I imagine everyone else is too

>>9687074
People think that reasoning is separated from our instincts. That's a wrong line of thinking, every part of our culture and "superior reasoning" has a biological way of explanation.

>>9690584
Yeah, but if we're gone, and the only hope you're left with is that dolphin or octopi are going to develop space travel in the next billion years (assuming everything else continues to go swimmingly), so "our" story probably ends here.

Plus, given how adaptable we are, anything that wipes us out will probably leave the planet such a wreck as have to start from square one, and there just ain't enough time left in it for that.

We maybe the biggest living threat to the story of life on Earth, but we're also its last best hope for survival.

It's like pottery.

>>9691453
>We maybe the biggest living threat to the story of life on Earth, but we're also its last best hope for survival.
>It's like pottery.
Eh, it just makes us the most powerful species on Earth.
Doesn't say anything about morality.

We should eat lions... eliminate the competition.

>>9691473
Can't have morality if everything's dead. Survival first, worthy of survival second.

Granted the two sometimes go hand in hand, and a lot of immorality results from valuing short term gains over long term survival - self imposed blinders which may, yes, eventually kill us all.

Plus we're the only species on the planet with real concept of morality, in addition to the only one with vision far reaching enough to see the inevitable end of life here coming. The only creatures with even rudimentary morality are a smattering of ones that we've trained. Beyond that, all anything has is crude empathy and hierarchy, and should something end us, there may not be enough time left in the world for another species to discover morality again.

>>9691352
>>>/reddit/

>>9691702
lol got 'em

>>9687074
>Not killing other forms of life is respectable.

Then you have no ethical choice but to starve. Or to define plants as not life forms.

>>9687074
>How do you deal with the internal cognitive dissonance of respecting other animals while also harming them in order to live?

"When we die, our bodies become the grass, and the antelope eat the grass. And so we are all connnected in the great Circle of Life." And all that.

A cartoon lion can understand this stuff, can you really not?

>>9687074
HOLY FUCK IT IS A LION GET IN THE CAR!

>>9687074
unless they grow their own food, vegans have no moral leg to stand on. the harvesting of vegetables and grain is intrinsically destructive to other creatures. more animals are caught up in combines and farm equipment or killed by irrigation than all the meat industry combined. but apparently birds, mice, and snakes don't count in vegan's eyes.

It's a matter of choice. Lions are carnivores and can only digest meat. They have no choice, and no moral dilemma.

If you're lost in the forest, know how to hunt, but don't know how to forage for berries/mushrooms, then the only option to you is to hunt. There is no moral dilemma.

If you live in a 3rd world, you're super poor, and by some miracle meat is affordable, yet the organic non-gma free-range tofu is too expensive then again, you have no choice and no moral dilemma.

Then again, if you are well off in a 1st world country, in the supermarket where the hamburgers are sitting right next to the vegan burgers, and they both cost the same, with the same nutritional values, THEN you are making the choice. Then it become a moral issue. Do you support the killing of animals, or don't you?