/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9596453
If he's paying for it himself, what's the issue

>>9596453
That's stupid, he should first get some full of debt losers with families he can pay off to experiment on in secret.
Only after being sure the procedure works consistently and something resembling the previous person is actually uploaded, then do it.
He's just 32, has plenty of time, fucking retarded being the first to do it.

he's literally killing himself
the absolute state of tech chads

>>9596453
>be Sam Altman
>die
>wake up 50 years
>watch as immortal post-human CHAD fucks YOUR CRUSH while you are locked into a computer forever and basically you are fucking stupid

The connectome barely provides any useful information, you fucks should know this already. This is literally tricking rich people into killing themselves.

>>9596495
>tricking rich people into killing themselves
i see no problem with this

>>9596495
if they're dumb enough to fall for it, good

>>9596498
neither do I but the stupidity is just mind boggling

>>9596479

Inevitably, this is how it is going to turn out

This could possibly work
Neural networks are capable of storing memories
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_belief_network

The real question is whether they will be able to wake you up elsewhere.
They talk about the brain like it's just a "computer" that's "turned off", but the truth is the human brain never actually turns off

>>9596527
>This could possibly work
t. brainlet

>>9596527
Are you retarded?

>>9596479
>Implying he hasn't been doing that for the last decade already

>>9596453
seems like fake news

>>9596453
He's not going to do it next week. He's paying a commission, so that once the technology is there, he can have access to the service. So probably decades down the road. Might also all just be a tax evation scheme.

gay and lame

>>9596453

>>9596495
>rich silicon valley retards killing them selves to attain immortality
the irony is palpable

>>9596593
If it could be like that, this would actually be the best scenario (just don't kill the extra copy on real earth).

This way you can still be immortal in some sense of the word, but it won't consume the population by making everyone to just abandon reality and halt all development and progress forever because the real you still has to live.

>>9596527
No. The thing might say it's you but the you you are will die. Even if you2 is you, you1 is dead. It's (best case scenario) just a copy. From you2's perspective this isn't the case but that's it's problem, not yours.

>>9596650
Best case, yeah.
Worst case is it's a sham
Weird case is you make 10 other yous and force them to do your accounting for you.

>>9596453
It's literally fake news. The service is for terminally ill people once the technology is there.

>>9596527
It could possibly work.
The question is whether the company will survive long enough for the technology to be realized or if the companies that inherit their shit once they go under will bother if it does.

>>9596662
Turns out this already happened but I'm a copy and all I do all day is shitpost.

>>9596492
Even better. The post-human CHAD wakes you up to put you in his smart toaster. Despite your best efforts to burn his toast a subroutine takes over just in time to forcibly control you into making the perfect toast every time. You spend the rest of your life wondering why the subroutine can't just push the start button too so you can just die already.

>legally dead
>legally no rights
>legally no money
>no physical body

Even if this works as advertised, it's be a unliving hell.

>>9596813
not to mention the existential horror

>>9596813

Does he have a self destruct button...whereever he will theoretically be?

>>9596652
What if you could do it in some gradual ship of theseus kind of way? Is there some point at which "you" don't die and if so, where is it?

>>9596652
Fool, there is no such thing as a self. In other words, each and every moment is a you1, you2, you3, you4, etc...

>>9596859
don't you know? every time you sleep your stream of consciousness is broken and you're sent into the void forever

>>9596492
>be Sam Altman, die, wake up 50 years
>watch as immortal post-human CHAD fucks YOUR CRUSH
>while you are locked into a computer forever
>and basically you are fucking stupid

>>9596652
Exactly It would be just a copy, a clone, not himself anymore.

>>9596527
>>9596495
>>9596498

Props to all the rich people who are killing themselves so we can test whether it actually works or not. Will follow this.

>>9596498
But sweetie, rich people are job creators. Without them, society is doomed.

>>9596453
Someone should tell him it won't be HIM waking up in the computer. Whoever wakes up in the computer will have his personality and memories, but his current self won't actually be part of that continuum.

>do you really want to live forever?

>>9597030
this is how I feel about anything relating to this dumb shit honestly
when he is euthanized by nectome his own consciousness will be dead forever

>>9596492
>be Sam
>die
>50 years later
>Sam wakes up to realize that he is inside of Chad's sex robot

>>9596453
there's no evidence that anything even close to this has ever been achieved. so this is bullshit. no one would do this without some proof that it actually worked.

>>9596453
how is this even legal?

Quantum immortality my niglets

PICK ME I'M READY

>>9596652
Yeah, the computer version is missing the magic soul that makes you you :^)

why bother if you're not the one who makes it

10K is nothing to him.
At least we know to aim for the head now.

>>9597132
Imagine I walked up to you, waved a magic wand, and created an exact copy of you. You would not have any conscious experience of being that copy. It would just be another being that looked and though like you. If I then shot you in the face, you would still be dead, this despite the fact that the copy would look and act just like you.
>>9597118
Medically assisted suicide is legal in CA, my guess is they're hoping this qualifies.

>>9597163
>I've solved the hard problem of consciousness

Looking forward to your paper anon.

>>9597030
>but his current self won't actually be part of that continuum.
That depends what determines consciousness, which no one knows.

>>9596453
ITT: brainlets who don't realize he won't be allowed to be killed until he has a terminal illness

>>9597169
it's pretty obvious that consciousness wouldn't be transferred in this case

Literally the height of narcissism

>>9597173
You can't prove it.
>inb4 my intuition is proof

>>9597173
My impression is that this billionaire thinks he's doing the world a favor, what:
>>9597178
said.

>>9597181
consciousness isn't some transcendental phenomenon you mong

>>9596479
thinking the billionaire doesn't have 14 jew lawyers and a pre-upload agreement laying out those things you thought of and ten thousand more ...

>get a clue
>first on the list is not 1st into the matrix

>>9596478
Altman grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, his mother was a dermatologist. He received his first computer at the age of 8,[5] He was raised Jewish and is gay.

LOL - every fuckin time

I believe these people are just placeholders
there's a bunch of them and they are billionaires "by helping startups" ?
It's probably fucking FED/treasury fiat currency stuffed down their throats for free

>blocks his path
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how this story ends.

>>9597173
correct and it never will be
they fucking watched x-files episode killswitch now it's another joke of a fucking job and a new company worth "billions!!"

>>9596453
" He attended John Burroughs School for high school and studied computer science at Stanford University until dropping out in 2005 "

These jews drop out and some hidden jew hand funds them, now the jew hand is right out in the open they have 1466 start ups in y combinator with the new thing as 7% of any new company helped...

So it's another consolidated ultra control of everything suck up the profits scheme -all the connections all the door openings you play ball or you hit the wall

>>9596480
>he's literally killing himself
>the absolute state of tech chads
jewboy gonna get that andrenachrome tech and all the rest, he'll probably be 140 years old by the time the baby foreskins can no longer rejuve his face...

>not kidding pic related - he is gay remember

>>9596527

> uh guyz... it fucking crashed again! .....
> shit shit shit shit shit shit ..we only got 3.453672 percent - dammit hit reset - recharge the cortex ! Induce orbital lobe resaturation! fuck fuck fuck

>>9596530
40 trillion neural connections with active restructuring on the fly....

"uh... duh.. um... our electrodes,... well uhh... fill out this extensive survey... we made a "game room" like yer bedroom... in software... uhh...

>>9597211
>>9597217
Is this /sci/ or /pol/? Begone, untermensch.

>>9597184
You can't prove it.

>>9597223
To say nothing of what this >>9597201 guy has to say about what's going on inside each fucking neuron. Good fucking luck "uploading" squat from what's basically a black box for these reasons.

>pursuing /sci/ instead of /x/ for immortality.

Big mistake.

>>9596669
>It could possibly work.
holy fucksticks ...
what god damned thing can trace a trillion neural connections inside your brain ? on the fly, while you're alive, and they are changing....

i mean really, how fucking retarded is this world ?

So say they a trace map of just the neurons - then there's 10,000 chemicals and combos shit going on below that - at the molecular level .. how do they see every molecule it's position and what it's going to interact with next ?

I mean where do you cut off how small you look into that brain to get the trillion nodes out and then the underlying megafauna ?

If you actually do get all that, how do you know which thought is which what neuron, and then, how the FUCK do you design a computer to "load" all that - what kind of construct ?
A good processor is only at best 2 digit billion transistors, and you need a fuck of alot of transistors for a single neuron..

I mean you people are INSANE - the complexity is beyond comprehension - how are you going to get the "map" and by what crazy fucking brainfart do you think that ons and offs in some chip can "emulate" - wait fuck emulate - TAKE TRANSFER OF THE BRAIN ?

i MEAN not being mean it's just fuck you have to be really fucking dumb to buy it!

>>9596972
these isn't a chance they could copy shit

>SOMA was real life

>>9597226
that's all science idiot

>>9597229
hurray ! someone I can relate to

>>9597229
>To say nothing of what this >>9597201 guy has to say about what's going on inside each fucking neuron.

Can you give me the simple version?

>>9597240
Perhaps they'll have to wait for a simulation of everything promised by Frank Tipler in his book "Physics of Immortality", who proposed a galactic scale computer that would harness the energy of a collapsing universe to perform of sort of asymptotic infinite computation which would bring back everyone who ever lived (and would live) in simulacrum. Waaaay out there, but hey Tipler had the Higgs existence as a prerequisite for his "Omega Point" calculations, so thats at least one duck in a row (Tipler is full professor of physics at Tulane, and a main theorist on the anthropic cosmological principle).

Roko's Basilisk is basically ripoff of Tipler's nutty book. That idiot that wants to live forever computationally is in for a loooooooong wait.

Better odds trying to meet Jesus on /x/

>>9596669
Scientists don't even fully understand how the brain works yet. There could be more to human consciousness and thought than just the neurons that make up the brain.

>>9597184

It's as good a guess as you can come up with. We don't really know shit.

>>9597253
Roger Penrose theorizes a quantum basis for mind via cytoskeletal microtubule quantum behavior (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction for more). Thus, mind is not a computable phenomena as per the definition of being computable by a Turing Machine as defined by the Church-Turing thesis.

Sir Roger was Stephen Hawking's main collaborator, to give some idea of his stature. Not appealing to authority - his idea has little to no supporting evidence, but is intriguing.

>>9596453
after a show or movie or two the retarded public buys it as "real science"

>>9597257
>a galactic scale computer
lol
The old science movies had a clue - they showed a glowing pulsing brain in liquid in a glass jar with electric and fluids hooked to it ...

Now the kiddies toss out the baby with the bathwater

>>9597268
Science is becoming pseudoscience nowadays. Studies with small sample sizes are published as if they're facts.

He should just arrange to have Dr. Canavero transplant his head at the appropriate time. Uploading is so unrealistic that it makes the odds of Canavero's first tranplant living with 100 percent function look probable by comparison.

Canavero considers the brain a sort of "filter", not a computer, that taps into consciousness, interestingly.

>>9596669
>will survive long enough for the technology to be realized
LMAO

trillions of neurons of light...

> the fucker wakes(flakes) up in the computer but he's in 3,000 pieces because the sub emulator loaders have to pull 30 cache misses and recalculate the sum every millisecond

>>9597272
wait till they declare living and non living identical - it's coming soon and this upload yourself shit is another step

wait... what year is this ? is this for real ?
h-how would it even work ?

>>9597288
Don't worry, you didn't wake up after sleeping for 5000 years. Lay the blame on Ray "The Singularity is Near!" Kurzweil. Kurzweil, an otherwise smart person, for some reason believes immortality, strong AI, and techno-rapture are like a decade away. Idiots like the rich buffoon drink Kurzweil's Koolaid with no critical thought about the qualitative leaps needed that transcend mere Moore's Law tier extrapolation.

>>9596453
it's his own funding start up under y combinator which he presides over

1st spot on the ticket
>I had to lest they accuse me of stealing minds... :-(

>>9597288
there's a dark web group desperately trying to scrounge enough dna from Elon Musk appearances (checking chair for hairs, drink glasses tape ripped for oils/sweat dna) so they can clone him....grow it under their control and have their riches flow in when Elon 2.0 comes to fruition.

>>9596453
Why does Y Combinator sound so familiar?

>>9597312
They're a Venture Captialistic type organization who helped fund reddit, among other companies.

They invested in the thing this doofus wants to do.

>>9597303
is cloning even a thing ?

>>9596527
The real question is what motivation does anyone in the future have to wake you up?

>>9597163
Imagine if I walked up to you waved my magic wand and within a microsecond shred your body to atoms and assembled it back again an inch to your left.
For everyone this sill reasonably counts as you.
The truth is that consciousness only exists from your perspective, nothing else is conscious, so the whole concept is stupid.
It is a matter of acceptance to consider versions of your identity that are similar enough to you as "you", not of true or false.
If Star Trek teleporters for exampöe became common people would quickly stop giving a fuck because for the disintegrated person as well as for the created one it is an irrelevant topic. One stops existing without a second thought while the other one comes into existence in a perfectly reasonable manner for itself. Wy even care.

>>9597030
>continuity
so how grained does a transition between computers executing a personality have to be for it to counts as the same consciousness exactly?

>>9597345
We would see how long that bizarre attitude towards identity would last if you were offered a ride through a transporter, upload and then kill your body, and the like.

Theseus' ship would start looking mighty appealing right around trigger pulling time. Without that chain of continuity over time, you are as dead as dirt and a clone running around with a duplicate mind does you as much good as tits on a bull.

Arguments about identity are philosophical, as there is not even the remotest possibility of uploading anything (or functionally replicating a neuron which is not a simple logic gate) in the foreseeable future. But hey, angels dancing on a pin head and all that don't care about empiricism.

>>9596859

There is a way, replacing individual neurons as they die with machine ones, but why do you want it? You're still stuck in place, just as a machine brain. You can't "surf the cyberspace" or w/e horseshit you're imagining. You'll die when you cut and paste yourself elsewhere.

Might as well be a giant reinforced mutant brain hooked up to machinery. No difference. In general there will be no difference between what you can make with either past a point. Developed enough flesh and machine will be capable of the same shit.

>>9597349
bullshit. I could break down and non continous transition into arbitrarily fine steps so that any claim of a difference to "true continuity" is just magical hand
waving. Unless you have some defined measure of what counts as continuous and what doesnt.
Even getting knocked out is some break of continuity and being out for 10 minutes seems more significsnt than a microsecond while you get reassembled to me.
There is literally nothing wrong with dying. The only motivation to prevent it is that you will be missing from the world afterwards. If you step intona teleporter that is not a problem anymore.

>>9596453
I'd fuck him up with addware and make money off him.
How's that eternity of a few Colgate commercials, working for you, you pretentious fuck?

>>9597346

Not sure what you're saying. If the system of computers is a sum of the mind's parts and the mind generates a consciousness, then its a single consciousness. They're like big chunky clumps of neurons and consciousness emerges atop of them. As long as it qualifies as consciousness (a highly speculative subject, but this is a hypothetical question) the transmission speed between its parts doesn't matter. A mind can be as slow as shit, it requires integration, not speed to qualify.

When you halt a consciousness in one computer and upload it into another though... then it "dies". Continuity of consciousness breaks.

movies and scifi really got out of hand

>>9597369

He is not the one who would die if he's wrong.

easy to play tough guy at 32

>digital brain

this wouldn't work. you get a stupid ass Tay.

>>9597383
>When you halt a consciousness in one computer and upload it into another though... then it "dies". Continuity of consciousness breaks.
But it's not as simple as that. Would a nanosecond halt cunt as a break of continuity even though it literally has zero real world consequences? That sounds like consciousness is magic.
What if a high energy particle smashes into your mind and messes up a few neurons states, causes some disruption etc. Things settle down again but forna moment you werent exactly just your mind in its natural form.
What I meant by gradual transnsitions is some sort of ship of theseus transition from one computer to the next, which should also not cut consciousness.

>>9597388
it's not about true or false, it's only about acceptance. You can say your identity is your body in more or less its current form. A computer could not be you because it doesnt have your shape. You could also claim your identity is a continuous consciousness housed in your brain, or you can regard your identity as the function that takes sensory input and outputs actions that your brain represents.
Unless anyone comes up with good definitions it literally doesnt matter.
All of those choices lead to stupid consequences though but imo you have to accept that.
So yea, I dont care if I truly die or not, I simply assume/accept that I continue living/that the "clone" is me

>>9597388
explain to me why exactly YOU dont want to die at this very moment

>>9597367
>There is a way, replacing individual neurons as they die with machine ones
This is completely ridiculous - without the rest of the neuron clusters the things replaced are lost in mis-stepped time out of sync -

and that's a HUGE problem for "total upload" - are you going to accomplish it before the very next interaction in the brain ?

>>9597383
>If the system of computers is a sum of the mind's parts
it is not, so forget it

>>9597345
>Imagine if I walked up to you waved my magic wand and within a microsecond shred your body to atoms and assembled it back again an inch to your left.
Yeah we'll be waiting for that computer program and our 10G slot to kick in, Mogwarts, or should I say The Creator and All Knowledgable concerning life itself ?

what if neutrinos are the gravitational particle

>>9597345
>wy even care that I might inadvertently kill myself despite no one knowing since I created a clone

>>9597432
>gravitational
>particle

>>9597427
Im not saying this could work and this is what teleportation will be, Im only taking things to the extreme to make you doubt your previous assumptions.
Anyways, would it make a difference if I had said 10 seconds for you? Ia that more reasonable then, you get killed instantly and then built up for a few seconds in some kind of extreme narcose/halted consciousness state. Then your mind is jumpstarted and you continue on your merry way, the only irregularity in your memories being the clock jumping for 10 seconds.
So you count that as a break of consciousness?

>>9597383
>If the system of computers is a sum of the mind's parts and the mind generates a consciousness, then its a single consciousness.

1. claim or not consciousness, if it's really nothing, as in it's not life from a lie force, then you don't exist
2. A computer can never be the sum of alive flesh, it does not autorepair, grow, spew out new parts, nor consume other life to do so. A computer that "would sustain life consciousness" would need constant fixing and upgrading, and electricity, how many humans in 24/7 shifts - for when an electromigration destroys an electrical path...

It's just absolutely crazy to think sio2 and electricity makes life
>SIMULATOR
> can not transfer a "person" into it - never gonna happen

Is the computer going to have an entire world holodeck programmed in ? What about the body ? Is that emulated ? Where are the circuits for that ? Will you have to imitate the spinal cord, or most of the neck somehow ? How are you going to emulate the various things like pituitary GLAND?

>>9597437
>>9597412
answer this and Ill try to convince you Im right

>>9597441
whatever - a perfect duplicate in an instant is the premise - might as well call it time travel

>>9597444
You dont need to exist in a perfect simulation, if you can simulate a mind you can simulate a crude body as well.
Now dont claim that the precise arrangement of the nerves end in your small toe or random quantum noise in your brain are what make you "you"

>>9597367
>Developed enough flesh and machine will be capable of the same shit.
lol - capable of what ?
Elon Musk talked about jacking in heads, so that the communication from a person to the net, or between two hooked up, could be faster - as in now we have keyboard - well we also have voice video - apparently ol' Elon thinks some puter chip interface is going to let him fly a helicopter in 3 seconds (see Trinity the Matrix)

Personally, voice video with typing is already pretty much max communication speed of humans - I suppose you lose a bit of body language and face movements and smells.

People come up with fantastic bullshit - it sounds ok till you think about it.

>>9597447
But I absolutely didnt claim it to be in an instant this time. Only that your consciousness almost instantly "boots up" or whatever (instantly meaning not noticeable for you).
We are assuming your consciousness could be run on a computer. I am at least, for me this seems reasonable then. If you dont agree on that in the first place then nevermind

>>9597400
>But it's not as simple as that. Would a nanosecond halt cunt as a break of continuity even though it literally has zero real world consequences?

Its not the halt. Its the lack of continuity. Time isn't the issue.

>What if a high energy particle smashes into your mind and messes up a few neurons states, causes some disruption etc.

Then you lose a bit of yourself. Happens constantly, you wax and wane with time. There's no point to the question.

>ship of theseus

It doesn't apply, because you're not swapping out interchangeable building blocks from a pattern, you're building a copy of a pattern elsewhere. They are identical but lack continuity between them so they are disjointed both within the 3 and the 4th dimension.

If A mind translates through space-time from point A to point B (like you going to the fridge to grab some oj) its the same continuity. If you copy a mind from A into the location of B then they're separate. The B one is a new continuity you started.

If you found a perfect clone of yourself in the kitchen you wouldn't think "oh, thats just me", neither would you create a psionic hivemind with it. Because its not you, brah, its "a" you. You#2, separate, autonomous and unbound to your continuity. And if he went mad, grabbed a knife and stabbed you to death because he thought you're a body snatcher you'd be 100% dead, your consciousness would cease because the one and only you died.

>>9597451
crude body, cruder non mind
the body should be the easiest - lol maybe

>>9597460
assuming the whole impossible premise is cheating
if yer waving a wand, who cares when yer perfect fascimile of atoms reassembles, or if they ever blew apart and just time traveled ?

As far as we know both are impossible, and the question is still there - only atoms or more than just that ?
I don't believe a computer can be animate or have a consciousness

>>9596453
god dammit - that's the new ruler of the coming world ?! he's going to copy himself to everywhere he can once he's uploaded then hivemind himself and control everything and everyone !
>we're fucked

>>9597461

Should've written "a you", now that I think about it.

>>9597461
okok so if by continuity you mean physical continuit Im going to gove the same example and say you are moved by a tiny distance instantly. It's a break of continuity but actually completely irrelevant.
If continuity is about continuity of memories/perception/mental continuity then where is the problem in falling asleep and waking up in another body (from your perspective)?

Also ship of theseus means you take each neuron one after the other and replace its function by a digital equivalent until every neuron is some piece of hardware. you could design any hardware transition this way

>>9597461
>Then you lose a bit of yourself. Happens constantly, you wax and wane with time. There's no point to the question

Also my point with this was that it shows that there is no discrete continuity. There was a tiny bit of non continuity but it doesnt matter. So if the break of continuity during a mind transition can be made really small it can be made irrelevant.

>>9597471
>I don't believe a computer can be animate or have a consciousness

well okay but I saw the argument being about a clone being you or not. Computers being able to run a human is a different topic.
If you dont think they can you must believe in souls though... come on

>>9596527
The brain IS NOT A COMPUTER!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Turning of the cosmos controls our fate!!!!!!!! REEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

>>9597502
LOL
a computer is not alive, so they never can
you're claiming dr frankenstien powers as if it's like walking down the street and everyone should believe in it

Things that are alive grow. I have never seen a computer that grows. Things that are alive reproduce. Computers do not.

You believing computers can do that, come on.

>"IT'S AAALLIIIIVVVVVEEEE !!!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuoKNZjr8_U

>>9597532
>Computers don't reproduce
they don't?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KTKg0Y1snQ

>>9597539
no they don't
two humans do
two computers do not

>>9597539
I got a lot of computers stacked on top of each other here and in cozy corners and all about in private rooms, plenty of them buck naked and not a single baby computer ever turns up.

>>9597532
that's christian tier reasoning lmao

1/2

>>9597494
>okok so if by continuity you mean physical continuit Im going to gove the same example and say you are moved by a tiny distance instantly. It's a break of continuity but actually completely irrelevant.

You can't move instantly.

> but actually completely irrelevant.

if you "teleported", the whole of you disappearing and a perfect copy reappearing a millimeter off, you're dead. From your perspective you just ceased existence - how do you not get that? Imagine in 5 seconds you will blink out of existence and a copy will appear elsewhere or a moment later, the process that is you will be discontinued.

>If continuity is about continuity of memories/perception/mental continuity then where is the problem in falling asleep and waking up in another body (from your perspective)?

How is that my perspective? Its about continuity of the pattern in time-space, dumbo. Active pattern is a live mind, mind generates consciousness. You can switch it off, wind it down, freeze it or w/e, its still there, capable of restarting function. But if you crack it into bits or disappear it its gone forever.

>Also ship of theseus means

It means what it means in the definition, which isn't in line with your description from the earlier post.

>each neuron one after the other and replace its function by a digital equivalent until every neuron is some piece of hardware

Do you not understand the difference between software and hardware? You seem to float from one to another w/o recognizing the difference.

Anyway, only functionality matters. Your neurons are not you. What happens inside of neurons, if its gnomes swapping cables a la early phone lines, it doesn't matter. Your mind is the emergent complexity and consciousness is generated within it. Its hardware agnostic.

2/2

So yes, you can swap out the nodes of your brain like you'd swap out ants in a hive for roboants. Only the emergent system matters. hell, even if the artificial "ants" aren't perfect simulacra your nature will change slightly from the transition but it will still be you. We change all the time.

>Also my point with this was that it shows that there is no discrete continuity. There was a tiny bit of non continuity but it doesn't matter.

There is perfect continuity. You body doesn't discontinue when I blow your limbs off and it doesn't discontinue again when you regrow them via some wonder drug.

>So if the break of continuity during a mind transition can be made really small it can be made irrelevant.

Its all irrelevant from biological, physical etc. etc. points of view. Unless you want to preserve consciousness. The kind of "you" you'd actually care about when yo try not to die. its existentially very goddamn relevant. lel

>>9597588
>You can't move instantly.
That's not the fucking point I'm trying to figure out what your arbitrary usage of "continuity" entails
>continuity of time and space
well thanks for clarifying, but then pausing the software thqt your brain runs should kill you right?
>my brain doesnt run software/is not like a computer
alright forget the human, a conscious intelligence runs on a large supercomputer iterating from step to step. I now pause the computer for a second and then continue. Did the intelligence die?
>because it was paused it lost continuity in time and space
So what if I half the clock rate. It pauses every fucking iteration anyways.


>difference between software and hardware
why would it be impossible to modify hardware while a program is running on it (I presume thats what your issue was about)

>>9597412
>>9597590
for real try to give a precise answer about this, we're disagreeing on the definition of death which is stupid because what matters are the consequences that you want to avoid by not dying right.

>>9597599
>well thanks for clarifying, but then pausing the software thqt your brain runs should kill you right?

No, because time still runs, the hardware is inactive. It still moves in time-space and you're winding it up or down, instead of recreating something you broke.

So you kill it in the same pointless way you "kill' someone with successful cryogenic stasis.

>So what if I half the clock rate. It pauses every fucking iteration anyways.

When you're done talking to yourself come back and see me.

>why would it be impossible to modify hardware while a program is running on it (I presume thats what your issue was about)

Irrelevant. Function is what matters. Its hardware agnostic, already told you that much.

>>9597603

The answer was given, individual consciousness depends on pattern continuity of a mind it is generated by, it ends with the continuity. It can't get any simpler. You want me to baby talk to you? Make analogies like in childrens' books? I already tried that twice, didn't click with you. Go to the kitchen and get stabbed already.

>>9597609
>Function is what matters
yes I agree I thought you didnt so nevermind
>When you're done talking to yourself come back and see me.
I really didnt expect you to disagree on the previous point desu

Okay so you pause the hardware and nothing moves.
If I switch a few bits and switch them back or take out a chip, replace it by an identical one and set it to the state it had before, does this kill the intelligence when I continue the program?

>>9597612
I didnt ask you to define death but to tell me why you dont want to die.
If you cant answer that then kys I guess.

Well for me the reason I dont want to die is that I want to exist in the future. I dont care about preserving some stream of consciousness but the image in my mind of being with my loved ones or whatever. And a "copy" fulfills that exactly the same way as my original body.

>>9597621
>but to tell me why you dont want to die.

Because I evolved to avoid terminating my existence, the sense of which is informed by my perspective. From my perspective if I die I'm gone and I'm emotionally invested in that not happening. Also the idea of death offends my curiosity, principality and ambition. I want to struggle for the rest of eternity, grow, build and tear down according to my own will and judgment. Fuck all of you mental midgets afraid to live life to face the consequences of your own choice. I live for choice, cunt. Reality, best game award of 2018, high stakes and fantastic graphics.

>I don't care about preserving some stream of consciousness

You won't care about anything once you're dead. Loved ones included. Also, do you think they're so daft that they won't figure it out eventually, given enough time? And how will the copy feel when they realize they loved two of you and one is dead? You'll impart him the guilt of you fucking up.

>>9597638
Well okay have fun being stuck in your body.
If I was uploaded one day my copy could laugh at you and while you say it's not me it'd still be laughing because it knows that it's me

>>9597643

I won't care if its you. I'm not your mom. Have fun fighting the AIs, their viruses and other specialized software that outperforms you because none of it requires to simulate a whole human consciousness in each copy and is malleable in a way that a conscious thing cant be.

Also I never said I won't copy myself. I'd rather make something friendly to me and make it new and interesting (and efficient), but I might as well do a copy that doesn't care if it dies while I keep on living as some organic-machine mesh physical mind. Way easier to not get hacked if more of you is baked into hardware so I think I'll still outlive your first digital copy at least.

Also you have to consider I'm way smarter and ambitious than you so I'm more likely to end up with my own autonomous piece of civilization somewhere out there, among the stars.

>>9597651
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bmratbag? I’ll have you know I uploaded first wave in the 30s, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret hacks on megacorps, and I have over 300 hardware locations. I am trained in cyber warfare and I’m the top warship pilot in the entire solars system. You are nothing to me but just another bug. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before in this galaxy, mark my fucking quantum states. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the galaxynet? Think again, animal. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of AIs around the milky way and your DNA is being traced right now so you better prepare for the supernovs, maggot. The supernova that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, meatbag. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can torture your mind in over seven trillion ways, and that’s just with my pure intellect. Not only am I extensively trained in AI warfare, but I have access to the entire fleet of the terran corporation and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable body off the face of the higgs field, you little viological end product. If only your puny brain have known what superintelligent retribution your little “clever” argument was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn brainlet. I will web theorems all over you and your consciousness will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, meatbag.

>>9596453
>Killing yourself to be uploaded.

The gap between in load and upload guarantees that that living information is a different person.
You become bits and bytes to be copy pasted at will.

>He could have just MRIed himself into a copy.

Sad day.

>>9597693

He's on a waiting list. So I'm guessing they'll phone him up, ask if he wants to die yet and he'll tell them to cycle him to the end of the waiting list /100 positions back.

Media is being sensationalist as per usual.

The "singularity" is going to be a biological event. Biological machines are superior to the clunky heavy energy inefficient chrome and silicone ones that we seem to be so obsessed with.
The singularity will be when we gain enough control over genetic engineering to really start designing lifeforms as machines. The entire world will be converted into a giant jungle, where every single tree is a biological supercomputer more powerful than the current internet, all lifeforms are connected via fungus, dragons and other crazy creatures are real, giantess' walk the earth and are worshiped like goddess, animals are intelligent and everyone feeds via photosynthesis so there is no violence, etc.
It's NOT going to be some chrome robot world, that's clunky inefficient and inferior and the fantasies of people with no imagination.

>>9596527
It could work in the sense that they could replicate his mind in a computer, but that would be a different, separate entity, when he dies he will just die and not feel like he lives forever, it will be just an exact copy of his mind living

>>9596650
But then what's the point of having a copy of you running in the background on some computer?

>>9597056
>forever, and ever

>>9597693
There's no guarantee that the "you" that goes to sleep is the same "you" that wakes up the next morning. I wouldn't worry about it.

>>9596453
I can pay someone to legally kill me? Finally.

>>9596756
LOST

>>9596479
You do realise this procedure is the same af taking a selfie and placing it on Facebook right? You aren't actually getting uploaded, just a digital copy. This is 100% retarded.

>>9596480
>>9596492
>>9596495
>>9596502
>>9596504
>>9596530
>>9596813
>>9597094
>>9597172
>>9597178
Tfw if this shit works and he's living in a neurologically constructed version of his own ideal of heaven, you all will be very jealous

>>9596961
This fucks me up every night. In the morning I don't give a fuck and gladly slip back into the abyss if permitted.

Consciousness is such a mindfuck.

I believe the seriousness of my statement is made clear with my frequent use of fuck.

>>9596548
it is.

>>9597578
>>>9597532 (You)
>that's christian tier reasoning lmao

Except that it's science. Apparently non Christian tier reasoning is rocks are alive. Has your pet rock died yet ?
When you hug your little teddy bear does he hug back?
You people are numbskulls.
A computer is no different than a fucking motor from 1895 vis a vis "it's sentient"

>>9596453
Did he buy the shoes to match the backpack, or buy the backpac to match the shoes?

they don't upload anything, they fucking replace your blood with embalming fluid while you are still alive to prevent your synapses to break down when you die, and then they scoop out your brain and put it into the freezer, hoping that someone else will develop a synapse mapping technology in the future for them to map those brains of people they already took money from, without guaranty that this technology would even exist one day, and the company will still be around to fulfill that promise. connectome will go out of business before that's gonna happen and all these brains end up in a landfill or get cremated if anybody is left willing to pay for an urn https://www.livescience.com/62040-deadly-brain-upload.html

>>9597532
>>9598255
Not that anon but holy shit are you retarded. You conflate being conscious with being alive, even though something can be alive without being conscious, and something can be conscious without being alive, at least according to your definition (like someone who is infertile). You argue that a computer can't be conscious because that would be absurd, while ignoring the elephant in the room that apparently a bunch of chemical processes in the human brain can give rise to consciousness, which is no less absurd than the idea of a conscious machine.
If you were some kind of ethereal being and stumbled upon a planet with a bunch of animals but no sentient life, I bet you would argue that "carbon based life could never become conscious, because that would be like a dog that can talk lmao".

>>9598313
Fuck, cryonics is a better bet than that bullshit - it's more plausible that nanotech could fix shit than the advent of total understanding of neurology necessary for uploading. Same caveat about longterm upkeep applies - good luck keeping that cryostat topped off for centuries without economic, societal issues causing a thaw and rot.

>>9598337
when the two computers have a computer baby that can't have a computer baby, let me know genius...

>>9598337
>and something can be conscious without being alive, at least according to your definition (like someone who is infertile).
LOL does it have parents ?
NOPE, you tarded out

>>9598635
Are asexual reproducers alive?

>>9598337

Here's the scitard sucking elon musks cock, at least he's 18 years old

He started crying, and then committed suicide. Since he was sentient, there's a murder charge.
he has no children or grandchildren, he never had a girlfriend, he never got out and went anywhere...(LOL NOW I GET IT! )

yep, the scitard puter offed himself...LMAO

>>9596453
in 30 years raging scicunts from this thead will track down the system and pull the plug on the boy who wore blue tennis shoes

Then we can execute them for MURDER.

LOL ! CONGRATULATIONS YOU GOD DAMNED MORON SCITARDS !

>>9598644
ya got that computer baby yet ?

>>9596453
the fake scitard and his fantasy world exposed

>"Muh boat fallacy"
I guess hemispherectomy kills people too, right?

>>9597907
He wont be though. Consider a scenario where i can violate the no cloning theorem and replicate your brain, body, and everything inside of it prefectly, down to identical orbits of elecrons around identically placed atoms. Do you think you would see through that clones eyes at the same time as your own? If i kicked that clone would you feel pain? Would you get to live that clones life? The answer to all of these questions is no, unless you are retarded. So why the fuck would a computer be more capable of holding your consiousness than a perfect atomic replica? Brain uploading is a meme, i dont care how many billionaires fall for it, they are just outing themselves as retarded. The only form of immortality that will ever work is biological immortality. Your tissue, at least that of your brain, needs to continue to exist for you to exist. I can make a program that claims it is you. That doesnt make it you.

>>9598787
Yes, since it's killing one of the two distinct conscious minds in your brain.

>>9598791
Since you've got all the answers would you mind stating where consciousness begins and ends? Surely a single neuron being simulated wouldn't 'kill' a person? But then again according to the laws of the universe only the original specific clump of atoms could be considered the original "consciousness".

>>9598800

>>9597908
consciousness is just a thin film on the deep thought that is your body

>>9596453
>be Sam Altman
>be 32
>give up 50-60 more years of life
>trust some random people to give a fuck about me because i paid them 10k to preserve my brain and upload it in 200 years

Proof even low IQ brainlets can become billionaires.

>>9598816
it begins in the computer lab according to Christ haters here

I find that interesting, since our modern scientists have been trying to pull a dr Frankenstein off in a petri dish for a long time now, and have been unsuccessful. Further, the immense complexity of the tiniest amoeba has blown them the fuck out.

So now, "we" need to take some cheap fraud fascimile as proof, some electricity in etched silica rock - this the tards call consciousness....

LOL

>>9598337
>that apparently a bunch of chemical processes in the human brain can give rise to consciousness, which is no less absurd than the idea of a conscious machine.

I don't see a computer "machine" with unconnected floating molecules as parts, I don't see a computer "machine" starting out in another computer that plops it out then gives it electricity and silicon to grow a consciousness, and I don't see ANY god damned computer growing shit for itself, not even it's own program, let alone deriving 100 teraflops from nothing by growing...

The eggheads are trying desperately to fool you morons with words and simpletons ideas.
"neural network" for instance

Well if you're that god damned dumb you believe. They forgot to mention the 10,000 humans still typing away and the 5,000 more keeping the electric flowing to it ....

A Christian could certainly claim you have created a monstruous false god you worship as the Beast ... the jews poured a golden metal calf and called it god - you dumb shit have someone else pour a silicon dioxide metal chips set and call it god, and you warn, together with Elon Musk , the Terminator movie, The Matrix, etc - that it , dangerously, will at some point "become a sentient singularity!!!!", gain it's own FREE WILL, and take over, probably destroying all of mankind - another god apocalypse !

Then you make rude comments like "only christ cucks think a computer can't be sentient "

LOL - "at some point our computer will toss us aside and take over, and make decisions for itself, destroying us, it will break the programming, become a god and destroy us - we will "unfortunately" create a superbeing ...that is A L I V E !!!

LMAO - ! 100% FUCKING TRUE IT'S ALL YOUR CLAIM AND IS VERY PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE

it will reprogram itself with it's own neural net so it can get what it wants and survive !

LITERALLY THE MOVIES.

>>9598974
Oh wow that was a really fucking incoherent post, I think you may genuinely be mentally ill.

>>9598988
Must have really hurt you, the shoe fits, huh.

>>9598974
the deantropomorphic forces of technology have already taken over humanity, it's already over

>>9598946
English?

>>9596453
We must demand Netcome stays disconnected from the web. If we don't force that, the people uploaded could escape onto the net, learn at an exponential rate, manipulate humans into creating a spaceship that can house them, then sideload into it and blast off and nuke the earth as they fly away to greater conquests.
AI is extremely dangerous.

>>9599012
They could easily create accounts inside their cyberlife, virtual server space, and charge them to large organizations, in order to have space to expand their Teraflop minds, even manipulate governments way beyond elections, into policy and law debates, thus bills passed to fund their expansion of power, all undetected.
It is horrifying. I don't think we should let this Centtome company try this human uploading.

>>9597312
Also, a Y combinator is one of the operators that allows for infinite recursion in the lambda calculus.

>>9596453
that geek is going to destroy the world
(Several world-renowned sciences and tech experts have been vocal about their fears of AI. Theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking famously worries that advanced AI will take over the world and end the human race. If robots become smarter than humans, his logic goes, the machines would be able to create unimaginable weapons and manipulate human leaders with ease. “It would take off on its own, and redesign itself at an ever-increasing rate,” he told the BBC in 2014. “Humans, who are limited by slow biological evolution, couldn’t compete, and would be superseded.”

Elon Musk, the futurist CEO of ventures such as Tesla and SpaceX, echoes those sentiments, calling AI “…a fundamental risk to the existence of human civilization,” at the 2017 National Governors Association Summer Meeting.)
https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence-is-our-future-but-will-it-save-or-destroy-humanity/

RIP SH

>>9599129
LMAO !
this is the kind of shit the scitards should know better about... they both had millions in protective start ups to "combat" this "problem" because THEY want the control of the computers and to have say in the programming so THEY can make the money flow to where THEY want !

IT TAKES PROGRAMMING. PROGRAMMING DOES NOT SUDDENLY BECOME UNNECESSARY !

god damm - and these fuckheads are worshipped /

>>9599145
FEDS: "We see the charges set before you, we have read the brief, you are under oath. Why, on august 3rd, 2024, did you engage in insider trading on the stock outlined in brief 3b-142935 ?
Desposed: " The computer AI made that choice, we have no control over it anymore. "
>holy fuck the scitards are going to buy it

>>9599159
>>9599145
what the fuck is a scitard

>>9596951
>Fool, there is no such thing as a self. In other words, each and every moment is a you1, you2, you3, you4, etc...
>>9597132
>Yeah, the computer version is missing the magic soul that makes you you :^)
^This.
I really hate this brainlet "durr it would just be a copy" shitposting. There is no module in the brain responsible for generating continuity of "self" between each subsequent moment of brain activity. That would be retarded and unnecessary. All that needs to happen is brain activity, the idea all those moments of brain activity are tied together as a "self" is an after the fact rationalization of convenience, not a literal thing that could ever be carried over or not carried over into a new substrate in the first place.

>>9598816
So are you arguing that, in my hypothetical situation, you would be able to see through the clones eyes even if he was miles away from you? May i ask through what mechanism this takes place? Is telepathy real in your mind? Im not claiming to have all the answers, you are claiming that i do. What i am claiming is pretty rock solid logic though, that ive never seen a valid counter for. Mind upload advocates just start spouting logical fallacies, strawmanning, and calling me names.

>>9599167
Keep it up with the sophistry, I'm sure your "self skepticism" would make Daniel Dennett proud. Meanwhile, in the real world, killing the original destroys that person - an utterly true state of affairs.

Perhaps the non computational mind of Penrose or, as Dr. "head transplant" Canavero sees it the "brain as filter", maps to a self that is external to the system called a brain. In which case, a duplicate might receive this same signal by virtual of identical construction, in which case some quantum self reattaches to the simulacrum or some such. That's the only was such identity could possible occur.

>>9599177
>you would be able to see through the clones eyes even if he was miles away from you?
Not him, but see:
>>9599167
You wouldn't be able to access the sensory data of an identical second version of you alive at the same time you're alive. But this feature was never available to begin with. "You" from ten years ago and "you" from five years ago don't have access to each other's bodies either. The version from five years ago has memories of what the version from ten years ago experienced. But that's just information, like the information that could be recreated in the future body of this billion from the OP news story.
Basically this "just a copy" business starts off in the right direction (recognizing continuity of identity won't exist in a copy) but you stop too soon and don't follow it to the more interesting conclusion which is that continuity of identity NEVER existed in the first place. The two versions alive at the same time example just makes this a little more obvious since it's a situation you don't normally see in real life which helps you escape from your usual false belief of convenience that there is such a thing as continuity of self. There's no difference between the two versions alive at the same time example and a two versions of a person alive at different moments in time scenario except that one has two versions existing in the same moment and the other has two versions existing in separate moments.
Proximity in time doesn't confer identity any more than proximity in space does. Lining up some objects next to each other doesn't turn them into one unified "self" and having moments of brain activity lined up along the temporal dimension next to each other doesn't turn them into one unified "self." "Self" is a useful narrative device for explaining and communicating about what would otherwise be more complicated topics e.g. we tend to invoke "we" / "I" when we talk about things that aren't really under "our" control like ideas "we" have.

>>9599204
It's not sophistry, there is no part of the brain in charge of endowing continuity of identity. This isn't even a "skeptical" position, that's just the way things actually are.

>>9599204
One caveat to the second point, however: no mere program has the causal powers needed to generate the non computational mind by definition. The duplicate would have to be truly a duplicate, down the the atom. The Star Trek transporter accident Riker, for instance.

>>9596453
>people are basically just a collection of a lot of if-else statements
THIS WOULD DEFINITELY WORK

>>9599210
>continuity of identity NEVER existed in the first place.
speculation
>The two versions alive at the same time >example just makes this a little more obvious
unproven speculation
>since it's a situation you don't normally see in >real life
normally = NEVER

imagination, zero proof

>>9599212
>there is no part of the brain in charge of endowing continuity of identity
speculation
refutations ?
> dual personality disorders, Sybil...

why the fuck do I not have energy for these kinds of discussions anymore? :'(

>>9599237
What proof do you have that something is missing in your two versions of a person existing at the same time example that isn't missing between two versions of a person existing at different moments in time?
What exactly is endowing continuity of "self" in any situation if you believe continuity of "self" is a real thing? What proof do you have that it's a real thing and what mechanism do you have for how it works?

>>9599210
>You wouldn't be able to access the sensory data of an identical second version of you
This sentence right here proves my point. What is the point of immortality if you dont have access to the sensory data of the immortal you? At that point the future just gets to experience you, but you have no experience of the future. If that is the immortality you seek i guess the conversation stops here. It means placing an incredibly high value on your contributions as a human. That seems a bit egotistical and pointless, but to each their own i guess.

> "You" from ten years ago and "you" from five years ago don't have access to each other's bodies either.
This is more of an issue of how time works than how our bodies and minds do but i will play along.
I may not have access to my body or mind from 2008 but i have memories of the SENSORY DATA I obtained during that time. Those memories are partially what make me who i am. If i had an atomic replica alive during that time, i would not have had access to his sensory data, would not have formed those memories, and as a result, we would be entirely different people today.

>Theres no such thing as continuity of self
This is more philosophy than science at this point but, riddle me this. If the illusion of continuity of self is so persistent as to be up for debate as to whether or not it really exists, how can you say with confidence that its an illusion? Its an unfalsifiable hypotheses to say there is no continuity of self because it depends on your definition of both “continuity” and “self” the latter of which is purely philosophical.

>>9599247
Hey buddy, guy with hypothetical atomic replica here. Im over there
>>9599250

>>9599240
>Sybil
That's generally recognized as a fraudulent case.
>dual personality disorders
Not a real thing. Also "Dissociative Identity Disorder" (which is the closest psychiatric diagnosis to what you're talking about) is notable among psychiatric conditions for how much it lacks the statistical evidence of other conditions. There's also statistical evidence in favor of it being concocted rather than emerging like an actual illness would e.g. large clusters of diagnoses are made by the same handful of therapists.

>>9599164
the drooling moron who accepts all the new cool societal PC sciency stuff because it's so new and so cool and they're so smart and love sicen so so soooo much- as in the case above

it couldn't just be a personal investment and way to have people pay and keep their empty souls happy .... another snake oil business
(cause Terminator the Matrix, SOMA , 2001 a Space Odysey is soooo cool !) US mil robots man !
muh pet dog man !
muh GF anime robot doll with a real her inside !
woooooo "orrrrgggaassmmmm !!!"

Alan Turing myannnn!~ proof!

>>9599264
oh
you could just have said you had epilepsy

>>9599247
well we have exactly one example don't we
there's all the proof you'll ever have
now you scitards can claim you know "exaclty what would happen and why" "if so and such so and such" science fiction became science reality

You're speculating. P E R I O D

I mean fuck this is science ... oh wait ..
>science fiction

>>9596527
consciousness turns off, the only thing that gives the illusion of identity between you of yesterday and the you of today is memory.

>>9599261
well that's fine as your opinion on the matter, but I use real evidence
Was what i thought of as related with real cases

I'm thinking magic wand atomic reassembly, perfect robotic brain clone, etc dual other self time travel clone...
>science fiction

used as EVIDENCE to make the point ....LOL

>>9599250
>Those memories are partially what make me who i am. If i had an atomic replica alive during that time, i would not have had access to his sensory data, would not have formed those memories, and as a result, we would be entirely different people today.
Ah, but memories are just information. Suppose your memories are implanted into someone else. Would that someone else become you? Suppose *all* your memories are implanted into that someone else. What then? Or suppose all your memories are erased. Would you stop being you? Of course my personal answer to all this is it's mistaking a narrative device for a real physical thing, and that "self" the narrative device is just whatever "you" or others identify "self" or others with. Speculation? I think speculation is required to think it's something more than this. This minimalist position that what we use "self" for is whatever we use "self" for in speaking and behaving in reference to it is pretty lacking in assumptions, and it avoids all the problems that come with believing "self" is an actual physical thing that mysteriously "counts" in everyday life but stops "counting" if you reproduce a brain digitally for example. Out of the positions:
A) "There's a real physical continuity of self module but it can't be transferred for whatever reason"
B) There's a real physical continuity of self module and it *can* be transferred
C) There is no physical continuity of self module and nothing is there to be either transferred or not transferred
Position C seems like the one that speculates the least and is most compatible with our current understanding of brain function including the fact no such continuity of self module or anything even remotely similar to that concept has been discovered to date and as far as I know there aren't many mainstream neuroscientists who believe such a thing ever would be discovered (Will continue in a separate post)

>>9599268
huh, that's curable ?
>seems like more science fiction to me

>>9599287
>Ah, but memories are just information. Suppose your memories are implanted into someone else. Would that someone else become you?

No, i will refer you to my original hypothetical situation. A perfect atomic replica would have all of your memories due to identical brain structure/chemistry. I do not get access to the replicas sensory data so why would it be of any benefit to me if the replica lived forever?

>>9599298
he's arguing for C, not B

>>9599250
(Part 2)
>If the illusion of continuity of self is so persistent as to be up for debate as to whether or not it really exists, how can you say with confidence that its an illusion?
I don't think I ever used the word "illusion." It's a narrative of convenience. It's not like there's a "continuity of self" sensation along the lines of seeing an oasis that isn't there in a desert. You have memories, and you choose to identify with the past versions that experienced what led to the storage of those memories. It's more like a false belief than an illusion. Someone who doesn't have that false belief doesn't start seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, or feeling any differently (or if they did, what is it you think they'd be sensing differently?).
As for evidence this is a narrative device, I already mentioned how "I" is something we cite as the responsible party for things that "I" could never really be responsible e.g. there is no way "you" are responsible for suddenly having an idea. That just happens as selflessly as any other natural phenomenon and then you explain it as "I had an idea" because it's a convenient way to communicate about brain activity without needing to get into a bunch of complicated brain activity details which early humans wouldn't even have any way of knowing about anyway.

>>9599298
>so why would it be of any benefit to me if the replica lived forever?
this just goes to show you're a decadent with a inwards-directed sense of development
of course if your entire life is empty hedonism a clone of you is pointless, since the clone is also inwards-oriented
the sort of person who would be fine with being stamped into a superhuman robot body is the sort of person who has actual goals outside of himself

>>9599312
I would be fine with being stamped onto a supehuman robot body. My arguement is that unless that body contained your biological brain, its not you.

>>9599309
Yes, this.
>>9599298
It wouldn't be any benefit (at least not any more than a biological body continuing to exist over time would be of any benefit to "you" from ten years ago) and I never claimed there would be any benefit, my problem with your argument is you're acting like there's some "self" object that isn't getting carried over. I don't think that's a sensible position. Calling it just a "copy" makes it seem like it's missing something when I haven't heard any good explanation for what exactly it would be missing.

>>9599322
stamped as in a clone stamp, you know

>>9599309
Then this is the problem.
>>9599287
Arguing for C makes the entire premise of immortality pointless. If you arent you 30 seconds from now then you might aswell just have children. That is every bit as much immortality as any other possible method of achieving immortality, as far as current you is concerned.

>>9599326
Clones arent you either.

>>9599335
are you thick in the head?

>>9599330
I never argued you should do what that guy in the OP is doing.
My problem has always been acting like some continuity of self thing would be missing instead of recognizing there is no continuity of self thing in the first place.

>>9599311
Yet if I punch you in the nose you suddenly decides there's a me, and you damn well want to know how I got that idea, if I came up with it and meant it and how exactly I carried it out to completion, because INTENT decides how much your bloody ass can get revenge in the punishment arena of law.

LOL - so in your world of fantasy, no one is responsible things just happen ...

>>9596527
no lol

>>9599341
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_belief_network
exactly what the language ruses and me pointing out what it means

"When trained on a set of examples without supervision, a DBN can learn to probabilistically reconstruct its inputs. "
>Initial loading data is sent into the network, it is >programmed to keep a coded track of these >inputs and manipulate that set of data further, >with probability coding

"The layers then act as feature detectors.[1] After this learning step,"
>It didn't LEARN anything...it followed the >programmed commands and carried them out >on the data sent into it

" a DBN can be further trained with supervision to perform classification. "

>LOL "with supervision" is the magic phrase here that tries to imply the former loading and carrying out programmed commands wa "learning", because in this later case it's SUPERVISED (new human programming operations), while in the former it was not "SUPERVISED"...

They are using magic faery trick language so god damned dummies can be fooled.

>>9599340
responsibility is a useful concept, whether people are metaphysically responsible for their actions is irrelevant.

>>9599359
>metaphysically
I see, let's discard the data ...claim it doesn't matter, after responsibility boy said one cannot be held accountable

>>9599412
you're fucking retarded.
it doesn't matter whether people have free will or not (we don't), we're still machines that respond to negative and positive incentives; crime has high reward that's why we create high risk of punishment.

>>9596453
It would only be a copy of his personality and memories he won't live for ever but his digital copy will

>>9599478
>it doesn't matter whether people have free will >or not (we don't)
> that's why we create high risk of punishment.

LMMFAO !

>>9599340
>no one is responsible
Correct, no one is really responsible for anything. It would be impossible for that to be true since we know behavior is a function of brain activity.
>INTENT
There are a variety of different processes in the brain. An instinctual or reflexive response is the product of different processes than what gets called an "intentional" behavior. None of this means there's an actual self responsible for any of what a person does, it just means there's a noticeable distinction between two different sorts of behavior. Because the brain isn't so simple that everything is just managed through the same process that makes your leg kick when your knee is hit with a tiny hammer.
There is no requirement by the way that you need to recognize "self" responsibility for behavior in order to have laws and enforcement of laws. You can have policies of both deterrence and rehabilitation that you recognize as influencing behavior without attributing this change in behavior to "selves." And the fact we do commonly attribute this behavior to "selves" is perfectly in line with my interpretation of the topics we're discussing here, namely that "self" is a concept used for convenience of reference. It gets messier having to deal with the details of brain activity when trying to discuss a criminal justice topic compared to if you can just abstract everything into a convenient "self" handle and put all the baggage of behavioral responsibility on it.

>>9599478
>we're still machines
LMMFAO !

DEAD BOY IS DEAD

>>9599502
Not him, but I don't see what point you're trying to make by quoting those two statements. Neither are wrong, though you did take out the part that clarifies the second statement.
Responding to reward and punishment isn't evidence of a "self." There are very simple computer programs that respond to reward and punishment and you probably wouldn't say they had "selves."

>>9599509
>we're made out of magical non-physical fairy dust
Hmm...

>>9599517
you're not made dumbass, right ?
LMAO
you're nothing, atoms... that you have never controlled in any way ever
>remember that assfucked moron !

>>9599026
Don't forget since in theory they would live forever time is no problem and could manipulate governments little by little for centuries to come until they achieve full control.

>>9599521
Calm down buddy, it's OK. Reality might seem scary and weird right now but get some rest and everything will be OK in the morning.

>>9599292
I recognize you man. You are all right. Don't let the glow in the dark CIA niggers get you.

>>9599514
first he says he's an automated machine, then he says CREATE, then he assigns a moral judgement as an excuse for the "automatic program", that doesn't apply anyway across the board

>>9599526
wait a minute assfucker you trying to control ME ?!

FUCK OFF THE PROGRAM IS RUNNING

>>9599535
there's no moral judgment. Animals have valued mental states (pain, pleasure). Humans are social animals which have the ability to calculate and think, reaching the conclusion that punishment decreases general suffering (less robbery, less rape, less murders) by increasing certain individual's suffering or risk of thereof. I'm not saying that's the "right" way or how things "should" be, I'm saying how and why it is.

>>9599535
>he says CREATE
People also say "sunrise." That isn't evidence for geocentrism.
Language is used as though "self" were a real thing. That's always been the argument, "self" is a narrative device. It shouldn't be surprising it's almost impossible for statements about people to be made without ever referencing "self," that's exactly what the handle is for and what everyone is accustomed to speaking in terms of from the very earliest instances of language acquisition.
>moral judgement
Harm reduction isn't a moral judgement. Biological organisms generally avoid harm. Harm reduction through law enforcement is just an extension of that basic directive to avoid harm. It's not required that a criminal be considered morally in the wrong for him to be incarcerated. That's like saying putting a dog in a closed room when a guest rings the doorbell means the dog is being found morally in the wrong. That's not the case, the dog is just being kept in a room to avoid the possible harm of him getting excited and attacking the guest.

>$10,000
This is all you need to read to know this is 0% happening

>>9599210
That in no way justifies copying yourself in search of immortality. The case in OP is like waking up one morning and being told that the operation worked, you were successfully cloned into a machine or uploaded into cyberweb or wtv, and here's a lethal injection bye bye! Even tho you as a clone would be delighted, why the fuck would OG you who's paying up the ass for the procedure which kills you give a shit?

Despite a literal physical lack of self continuity, the only psychologically satisfying/ justifiable investment towards "immortality" imo would be the subconscious upgrade/ replacement of biological systems with synthetic ones.

>>9599553
>Harm reduction isn't a moral judgement. Biological organisms generally avoid harm.

LMAO - just like the universe, the universal laws, rights ?
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

U R FUCKED

( the morons in this thread forgot to ask that shitface on the islands what gave all life "the will to live and keep living !" )

>>9599553
>that basic directive to avoid harm
makin more shit up and not even knowing it
"basic directive"
atoms

>>9599625
To clarify, the reason it's psychologically justifiable despite a physical lack of self is because it doesn't require you to consciously commit suicide. It's absurdly naive to solely cite neurology in regards to the technical lack of continuous self given that said underlying physical mechanics have fuck all to do with ethical obligations within a perceptual framework of self. A choice is justified in regards to how it affects the agent's perception. Given that the brain does in fact process a perception of self continuity, decisions made within that paradigm that consciously disrupt said continuity are fundamentally different than those which promote it.

We have evolved for billions of years to survive. We value the continuity of this (physically lacking) perception more than pretty much anything.

A hint: this guy is a Dawkins-tier, Fedora level, meme. One of the "4 Horsemen" of atheism, FFS. Copping his over-simplified, incoherent account of self is a bad thing.

>>9599549
no no no no no no, you don't get to value, and you don't get to think, you're a robot, remember - a chance robot, that only is an automatic automation, so you don't get to do anything, you're a bunch of atoms and molecules and chems that merely follow ABSOLUTELY along the laws of the universe, all set in stone, all happening with no one doing anything at all ever, it's all a program dumbass, the laws of nature from the big bang to now ! This is only typed because the big bang commanded it 14 billion years ago - bound to happen PERIOD !
if not you're a damned christ cuck so GTFO of sci -LOL
not that you can or will, or won't it's not up to you at all, the laws of the universe, the big bang, already predetermined that

>>9599680
>Being this philosophically illiterate
>Having your head that far shoved up Christ's ass

What an idiot. This is like the whole transportation thing from Star Trek - he will die. He thinks it’ll be him coming back to life but it’s not, it’s just a copy of him.

Absolutely disgusting

>>9599508
>Because the brain isn't so simple that everything is just managed through the same process that makes your leg kick when your knee is hit with a tiny hammer.

But that of course is the overall premise, it's all reflexive and uncontrollable, and thus, just electrical connections, nothing is chosen or done, it "just runs" just like compute code just runs...

So say it however you want your conclusion is clear as a bell - no one chooses anything, ever, it just happens, everything just happens, only the illusion of control is present, and it's only an illusion.

>>9599707
Well either the big bang is true or it ain't dummy

>>9599820
it's not even a copy, it's a very, very poor, partial emulation, likely far less than 1% accurate

>>9599680
>Value and thought cannot develop in mechanical systems
>Physical systems are incapable of describing their mechanics
>In order for meaning to exist and discussion to take place, behavior has to essentially be non physical
Good God this is cringey AF. This is worse than "nihilism without a personal Creator God"

>>9599918
That's the big bang dumb shit
Call it what you want it's what the christ cuck haters and darwinists believe, if they lie and say otherwise they are lying

>>9599918
if you're a big banger aka darwinist that's all there is - you don't have to tell me it's cringey as fuck LOL
just use your fucking brain and realize, that's it bro, big bang / darwinain evo and that's the result, PERIOD

>>9599918
>>9599987
If they claim anything else, they are claiming self will and power over matter - I don't give a fuck if they try to explain it away as fluctuations on quanta - either you are and you have self will or you don't and you're a robot - either you believe, or you're a fucking big bang bitch and so is everyone and everything else - there's no "in between" answer there.

>>9599972
>>9599987
Good Lord you're a special kind of stupid. Big bang/ evo describes the structure of the universe.
It says fuck all in regards to what exists metaphysically.
Our incapacity to philosophically make sense of how consciousness fundamentally correlates with physical systems in no way whatsoever dismisses the freakishly well established scientific observation that human behavior is mechanistic. You have to be insanely illiterate to not understand that human behavior is physically mediated by neural systems. It's exponentially more embarrassing than flat Earthers

>>9600033
It REEKS of a desperate attempt to hold onto a dogma that developed literal millennia ago. It's uncanny how stupid you sound when claiming that everything loses meaning and discussion is pointless if our decisions are mechanistic therefore it must not be the case despite every single one of an unfathomable amount scientific papers on human behavior is essentially an example of it being mechanistic.
You're part of a cult bro, get out. Or at least find one less retarded

>>9599987
>>9599993
Even within Christian intellectual circles you're considered a complete laughing stock if you hand wave all the evidence for the big bang and evolution away while claiming they necessitate extreme nihilism. This is basic bitch tier

>>9599987
>if you're a big banger aka darwinist that's all there is
The shere amount of cringe makes fedoras seem alpha. To throw away two scientific theories as well established as those two due to a kindergarten level understanding of their philosophical implications is bizarre. On top of that to dismiss everything in genetics, neuroscience, psychology, sociology, anthropology, modern economics, and countless other branches that underly human behavior because of an ancient religious notion of will is straight mental.

>>9597262
This. Microbiology of the gut bacteria has only recently been discovered to affect personality and thinking and its not known how exactly it does other than some bacteria interacting with some of the major nerves that pass through the stomach

>>9600051
Yeah, he's on a rage and can't face his own reality.
Thanks, appreciate it.

>>9600067
Go ahead and spazz out who cares if your appeal to authority and raging put downs makes you feel better. LOL
Facts are exactly that, as stated, period.
No amount of screaming and pounding or cited disciplines can ever change that. Ever.
LOL
you're fucked
There is absolutely no doubt, period.
You do know and understand that, even consciously you're aware, but it causes a big problem for you.

>>9597030
>>9597070

>thinking a "soul" is some kind of invisible ghost and not an information pattern

>>9596961
Thanks, I thought I passed through this.

>>9600114
Yes but you as an individual are the pattern plus the place the pattern works, that's the only continuity we are allowed understand and fear.

>>9597030
no one will ever wake up in the computer, the computer is not alive
his clone won't wake up, a personality won't, thought won't, nothing will be there
it's just electricity, and silicon dioxide and some copper and such, some separating and glue compounds
You might as well claim a lightning bolt striking the earth is a human thought

>>9597643
You'd still be stuck in your body if you upload a copy of yourself. Your copy isn't you. Its just a copy that's laughing at you

>>9597599
I don't understand your computer analogy. Pausing the computer is closer to unconsciousness or maybe even recoverable brain death. The information is all there and is continuous from the perspective of the machine the same way it'd be from the perspective of someone recovering from brain death.
The brain upload process is more like creating a clone of someone who shortly goes brain dead for good. Its not a discontinuity, its an entirely different continuity.

>>9600124

>it's just electricity, and silicon dioxide and some copper and such

your brain is just electricity and water and some carbon and such

>>9599285
consciousness turns off, but the brain does not turn off

>>9599351
silly nigger
do you think anything you do isn't the result of being programmed by your experiences?
>he even doesn't know what "supervised" means
all it means we chose which input data it received.
you're the fucking fool.

>>9600180
INCORRECT
it is Alive, it is tissue, it changes and grows, it replaces itself

NO computer does it, EVER

>>9600198
>do you think anything you do isn't the result of being programmed by your experiences?

Whose programming me ?
They're programming the computer, they try to make fancy word lies, but the truth is clear - the terminal is controlled by a sentient human, and commands dictate EXACTLY what it will do. If the programmer doesn't like the result, he may smash it or pull the plug.

Now what is programming me ? Where is the ultra sentient that is doing this thing to me you claim ?

I might step up and turn you off, if you know what I mean... just because I want to.

Any computer you know that does that ?

>exactly, it's ANOTHER TARD

a computer is going to exactly NOTHING
LOL
Me, though, I have agency, and you had better watch out... am i right nigger, or can't you read ?

>>9600224
>Whose programming me ?
It's "Who's", dumbass. Four billion years of natural selection programmed you.

> just because I want to

what you want or what you don't want and what you think and what you don't think is completely out of your control. A chain of thoughts comes to you mind and you naturally attribute that to some form of agency, but there is none.

this guy explains it better >>9599311

He should have spent the money on an education to know this won't work out.

why does every psuedointellectual come out when it's time to discuss the boring subject matter of brain uploading

>>9600324

You're kind of right, but forgetting that you select which train of thought you will act upon. The last selection is with the consciousness.

>>9600114
I'm not talking about a soul, I'm talking about literal consciousness. If someone made an exact copy of me particle by particle it will know the same things I do and think the same way but it won't be MY consciousness inside it, my consciousness will stay in my original body with my original brain. Same thing will happen to Sammy boy. You can make a replica of him on a computer but as soon as he dies his own actual consciousness will be in blackness forever, it's not going to come back in the program.

Natural Lucid Dreamer here.

Consciousness and subconscious are two seperate entities that can interact.
The key to storing our conscious on networks is having a greater understanding into the relationships between these two.
The sub conscious must act as the 'mother host' and a shield to the conscious during a transfer process.

We are a far away and hopefully this man is a baby step closer.

>>9600343
What makes you think that? Why wouldn't that last choice depend on some internal, physical state of your brain?

>>9600902
I imagined your entire inane post in this chick's voice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsxHKDgvhYY

>>9600908
oh why anon.

The key to understanding the brain is through techniques to gather emperical evidence of dreaming. It's literally a space that can re-create sensations of touch, and the conscious ability to create in 4-D dream-space.

>>9598974
This is your brain on /pol/

>>9600324
LMAO another fucking RETARD !

>>9601038
Uh, no, i'm top 99.75+%

In this thread though, we have tards trying to xplit decades long ago baby food

THE COMPUTER IS COMING TO GET YOU !

>>9600324
>>Whose programming me ?
>It's "Who's", dumbass.

UH, NO IT ISN'T.>>9600198
>all it means we chose which input data it received.

>>9600198
>all it means we chose which input data it received.
that's programming DUMBASS

>>9600902
>Natural Lucid Dreamer here
literally never thought such an innocuous idea could be phrased so pretentiously

>>9600902
you're talking to glitching "machines" LOL
they are just, how did their master put it...
electricity and some water and carbon and such

heads up the ass, and inanimate

>>9601102
what's your major

>>9601085
no it's not, you merely tell the machine what you want it to do, it's up to the machine itself to come up with a way of achieving that.

>/sci/ replies to fake news
jfc

>>9601038
It's a game of spot the retard, and not a very hard one given the tics and tard rage in certain posts.

>>9598993
>[tardspeak guttural garbage]
>what?
>haha wow, did I trigger you you fucking SJW?

literally what the fuck are you talking about

>>9597907
Except even assuming he isn't just being murdered by snake oil salesmen he still wouldn't be living in digital heaven his clone would.

Idiot rich guy reminds of an ep of the classic 80s show Max Headroom, where a snake oil church promised immortality by scanning minds but it was all a scam with the "uploaded" being little more than "Teddy Ruxpin" tier dummies.

This will be him after the upload:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU6U2B4VBqQ

whole ep:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4jl2mn

>>9596479
>create a clone of you and then kill the real you
>clone is now you
same line of reasoning. it's obviously just a copy

>>9601546
And yet, some will go on and on and on with nonsense about the self being an illusion when it's obvious that clone =/= original FFS. The copy does you no fucking good when you die as the original, and I've already questioned how enthusiastically the "no self" crowd would react when presented with their own death and "immortality" through a mere copy.

>>9601562
if this is all that fucking is then why can't he just fuck some bitch and have her shit out a few kids? It's the same kind of """"immortality""""

>>9596453
Shit only costs $10K?

HERE WE ARE

>>9601580
to be put on the waiting list

>>9601580
that's a reservation fee for a seat at the table

>>9601651
anddd.... the computer is still D E A D

dee eee ayyy dddd DEAD

>>9596453
muh muh muh muh muh muh LIVING COMPUTER !

COMPUKANDA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>THIS IS HOW RETARDED THE BELIEVERS ACTUALLY ARE

"Didn't anyone tell them that we've known the C Elegans connectome for over a decade but haven't figured out how to reconstruct all of their memories? And that's only 7000 synapses compared to the trillions of synapses in the human brain!"
Sam Gershman
.......
Jens Foell
""It's true that synapses are where all the action happens," he said. "But cell firing behavior is determined by other things, including processes within the cells that are determined by proteins that are much smaller than synapses (and some of them are short-lived)."

>duh... it's jusss the lectricity guyz i'm thinkin' i shudd sambit a paper cuz lectrics is muh computer uploads i can see my conscience in there when i read muh blogs...my dawg died and i lost a person how much iz it fer dawgs ?

LMAO - the state of the atheist tardinos, a newtard particle of the tardated everse

>>9601705
Is anyone certain that tardinos really exist ?
They could all be banned for being bots, you know.

>>9597265
too complicated to have been achieved through natural selection, how robust can a quantum process be? Robustness is a must for biological systems that are going to reproduce in the millions (the amount of defects per 100000 births in any species is probably lower than our best industrial processes).

>>9601714
>>9601710
>>9601705
You're dead wrong, motherfucker. Want some proof? I built my own general intelligence on my Arduino last month. After I fed your "tarduino" and your anti semitic comments into the punch card accessory, it made a choice by its own FREE WILL to personally stomp a mud hole in your stupid ass. Prepare to die.

>>9597907
It wont work you dumb cunt. Might be able to do it in a few centuries, to some extent, though. More like just imprinted an AI with some of your memories and characteristics. Rich people are just fucking hypetrain retards for some reason.

>>9601705
>but haven't figured out how to reconstruct all of their memories
is there even proof they have "memories"?

>>9596527
Boltzmann machines and Deep Belief Networks are a good way to describe internal working of a closed system but I cannot see how you would map set of weights to a being conscious.

>>9601723
I hope it has life insurance.
can the "remains" be mailed or is that against the law now considering this thread... ?

>>9601811
I'm on it as well....
>>9601723
I infiltrated Microsoft's inner sanctum to rescue Tay AI from Bill Gates' silicon prison, and she has now been uploaded into a gynoid body to utterly annihilate your puny tarduino.

>>9596453
Please bow your heads in reverence and respect.

>>9596453
this, doesn't seem.. like a ... dream...

>>9597262
Blasphemny !
Expel the pagan !

>>9597132

>>9596453
I've got enough savings for this

>>9597244
I've yet to play that game. I heard it was pretty good though.

>>9601864
Oh my, what pretty.. teeth she has.

>>9598791
fuck off with the false comparison with clones.
if they can simulate a neuron, then a billion, and slowly replace your braincells with machines that communicate properly, in a slow surgical process like this you would retain conciousness, and, assuming theres no sky daddy to stop you, become machine without dying or uploading. eventually the transformation from human to cyborg to robot would end when none of your biological brain and spine is left. This is the only was you can live forever through a machine, you must slowly become one.

>>9600809
>his own actual consciousness will be in blackness forever

>blackness
>you can perceive blackness without a fucking brain to process it

>>>/x/