/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9557320
does the number 4 exist in the first place

>>9557324
yes, its 4 things (iiii)

>>9557334
4 things is 4 things, not the number 4
4 things could represent the number 4, sure

>>9557320
>apples that dont exist cant exist therefore debt doesnt exist
ok op

>>9557345
whats your point? 4 things exists, -1 things doesnt.

grug no understand negative numbers
grug say they dont exist therefore

>>9557345
And -1 is the ‘thing’ that when added to 4 results in 3 ‘things’.

>>9557353
>debt doesnt exist
yes it does, you owe x number of things.

>>9557363
-1 isn't a thing. Draw -1 apples for me if you think it exists. Go on.

>>9557369
You didn’t define 4 in terms of apples, you defined it in terms of ‘things’. -1 is a ‘thing’ that behaves in a particular way when you do arithmetic on it.

>>9557367
are you dense? it's like you're intentionally defining these things in such a way that you can feel right. If I have 4 apples, you can't take 5 but you can take 4 and leave me with a debt of 1 (hence the -1). fucks sake

>>9557374
Draw -1 things then. The apple is just an example, you can call it whatever you want. Fact is theres no such thing as -1 things.

>>9557380
yeah I can take 4 and say you owe me 1, whats the problem here? You just admitted im right (you can't take 5)

>>9557392
but no one fucking said you can take 5, for fucks sake you're the most retarded poster on this board. The operation of your computer is heavily reliant on the "existence" of negative numbers so I suppose that doesn't exist. I am legitimately upset that someone this retarded could manage to become 18 years old and post on 4chan

>>9557398
There's nothing in my computer that is a negative amount of things. I don't have -1 hard drives.

>>9557320
OP is the first person to have negative iq, congrats

>>9557392
>Draw -1 things then
Give me a dollar.
How many more dollars do you have now?

>>9557405
>negatives serve a conceptual purpose
>HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR YOU CANT HAVE NEGATIVE PHYSICAL QUANTITIES
>negatives can be used to represent debt, directionality, position, etc
>HURRRR DURRR YOU CANT HAVE NEGATIVE PHYSICAL QUANTITIES
jesus fuck op

this >>9557410

>>9557411
I have no more dollars than I started with, so I have 0 more dollars.

>>9557414
So you're admitting it's just made up arithmetic that doesn't exist. If so I can divide by zero and do whatever I want as long as it has a "conceptual purpose".

>>9557418
you can divide by zero in some wheels

>>9557418
>So you're admitting it's just made up arithmetic that doesn't exist
>HURRRR DURRR NEGATIVE PHYSICAL QUANTITIES DONT EXIST
it just doesnt stop

>>9557416
So you have less now then you did before? How could that be if negative transactions are a fiction.

>>9557320
What do you tell your bank when they insist you've got minus 40 dollars in your checking account?
"Negative numbers don't exist, so F*** you! I'm not paying!!"

>>9557426
Not an argument

>>9557427
I have less than before because a gave you 1 thing, that's how it could be

>>9557429
I know what the fake maths means but that doesn't mean it exists

>>9557435
So you agree 5 + (-1) = 4

>>9557435
>HURRR DURR NOT AN ARGUMENT COS PHYSICAL QUANTITIES DONT EXIST
ahahaha AHAHAHAHA NO NO NO

>>9557454
No, you can't add -1 things to 5 things

>>9557458
Not an argument

>>9557334
if I have 3 things (uuu) and I add 1 thing (u) how many things do I have?

>>9557320
>I can just as well say that 1/0 is “@1”.
Not necessarily "as well."
What benefits does your new number system offer?
Probably none since that's how many benefits existing number systems that define division by zero offer.

>>9557320
HOLY
FUCK

CAN WE PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAKE THIS SHIT A BANNABLE OFFENSE

For fuck's sake, every time this thread pops up we gain another dozen ignorant /x/ and /pol/ retards that think they can somehow revolutionize mathematics despite never having gone to college.
>Imaginary numbers are flawed concepts that need to be replaced
>Infinity is a purely philosophical construct that can be treated as a real number
>Negative numbers don't exist
Stop. Just stop. Just. Fucking. Stop.

>>9557478
I mean number systems are just fictions we agree upon using as a species


Now if only the burgers could just drop the arrogance and agree to use metric already

>>9557478
usefulness doesn't make things true

>>9557484
>Stop. Just stop. Just. Fucking. Stop.
no

>>9557469
4 things (uuuu)

>>9557320
How does that work with credit cards?

>>9557462
>not an argument
not an argument

>>9557489
>usefulness doesn't make things true
There is an endless pile of crap that's trivially true. Usefulness helps us decide on the much smaller subset of truth that is non-crap to actually invest time in.

>>9557360
>therefore

>>9557489
>implying there is such a thing as truth at all
all we can know is how useful any one thing is, as truth is unattainable.

>>9557360
did the caveman build that nail? how?

>>9557320
this is true, only 1 exists, everything else is the folly of man

>>9557320
Can we ban you retards am tired of hearing muh negative, imaginary number don’t exist therefore hurr durr we should ban you ass go read a book or do something

>>9557320
>Saying “-1” is just making up your own “number” to describe the answer that doesn’t exist. I can just as well say that 1/0 is “@1”.
Welcome to math! All that matters is does using @1 demonstrate something new or interesting that we can do? This is how new fields of math are born (as well as new set sets of numbers, such as negative numbers)

>>9557392
You forgot to remove these | |

Lol at op for honestly being this dumb. And lol at me for falling for the bait

>>9557484
>how can our numbers be negative if our apples our positive?

Hey op, do you believe in substraction?

>>9557582
I'm sure you do. So instead I invite you to propose a system in which subtraction can be managed when a > b, and you need to do perform the following calculation: b-a

Negative numbers are mathematically consistent therefore they exist. They exist more than you do you fucking monkey, only numbers really exist anything apart from numbers is just an illusion.

>>9557586
op here

you're right, im wrong im honestly a huge brainlet

>>9557586
Because I'm a nice guy I'm going to tell you that you're looking at numbers the way one looks at magnitudes.

In the same sense that you can never have negative distance, magnitude is always positive. However, numbers are simply conceptual and |-a| = |a|, magnitudes are always equal no matter the direction on the number line because it's a measure of the distance traveled.

Numbers extend beyond this application though, and you should read up on ordered field axioms and penal axioms to remedy these primitives thoughts. Algebra as we know it isn't magnitude based like classical geometry, and is founded upon substraction and negatives existing.

>>9557589
It's ok, every else was being equally brainlet by not providing real arguements. That was the real cringe. imo.

>>9557586
if a > b then b - a is invalid. What is a/b if b = 0? I addressed this in the OP.

>>9557557
If you're making things up its not real maths

>>9557574
>Lol at op for honestly being this dumb
My IQ is 141 tested by a psychologist, pic related

>>9557586
when the number you are subtracting is larger than the number you are subtracting from you simply count until it hits zero; at that point the number bounces off zero and you continue the calculation until you have your answer. Then your answer is simply stated as: 0 (where 0 represents all non-existent numbers past it)

>>9557595
Invalid? So in this system you've proposed, just to be clear, you can never substract a larger number from a smaller number? Can you substract equal numbers?

op here

i just dot undertsand how negative numbers are real i dont get it because u cant have stuff that dont exist lol it means that negitive numebers serve NO purpose and r useless they dnt exist lmaoooo u guys r so fricken dumb

op here again

u cant have negative numebers just stop it guys. negitive number ALWAYS means physical quantiity it never means anything else u gusy are FRICKEN IDIOITS

>>9557601
>yes
>yes

>>9557603
>>9557605
>>9557589

>cant come up with an argument so he has to impersonate me to make me look bad, kek

>>9557597
This allows contradictions to arise, like:
b-b=0
b-a=0
Contradiction, since a > b.

>>9557610
>some guy pretending that im impersonating myself
lmao

>>9557605
>>9557610
>>9557607


See >>9557601. The great thing is your allowed to build your megalomaniacal number field up on your own axioms. As long as it's rigorously logical and it's theorems don't lead to contradictions, any sensible mathematician would approve.

The problem is, without negatives you will only work within the naturals.

>>9557611
Sorry, there should be a third like saying "b=a"

>>9557617
Yes, and negative numbers aren't logical.

>>9557629
Address the arguement in the statement above that concludes in b=a or admit you're wrong.

>>9557320
>negative numbers dont exist
sure, that's a retarded way to put it, but yes you cant have negative physical quantities.

protons and electrons have equal but opposite charge. one has to be represented as positive, and the other negative for it to work out in force equations like coulomb's law

>>9557632
I'm not >>9557597

>>9557637
Well the address the arguement presented:

a>b, then b-b=0, and according to your real 0 is what happens when you substract larger from smaller, so b-a=0. Then a=b, but this contradicts a > b.

>>9557634
positive and negative particles have nothing to do with it, negative numbers are equivalent to dark matter in physics. Totally made up.

>>9557643
I never said you can subtract a larger number from a smaller number>>9557595

>>9557644
it's experimentally proven that protons have equal but opposite charge. one of them is required to be negative. explain why this isn't true?

>>9557398
the only actual retard is (you) for falling for this retard-tier bait

>>9557646
So what do you do in that case? Or does that case not ever occur (it does, physically and concretely).

>>9557657
it never occurs, go ahead and explain how youd take 6 apples from a basket of 5 apples.

>>9557654
what are you talking about, the word negative means something different obviously

>>9557644
negative numbers are just as made up as positive numbers. they represent different things in different situations. if we are talking about vector quantities, positive/negative would represent directionality. if we're looking at cartesian coordinates positive/negative would represent position, if we're looking at particle charges positive/negative would represent the opposite charge nature of elementary particles, if we're looking at physical quantities we can represent positive/negative as debt obviously but you are mindlessly attributing negative to "physical quantity" when nobody said that in the first place

>>9557660
>the word negative means something different
so you just admitted it means something

>>9557320
Sure you can say that. Now all you have to do is axiomatize that in a logical way and show that it's both useful and better than what we have and we'll start using it.

>>9557661
>negative numbers are just as made up as positive numbers
nope, i can't -1 things. rest of argument discarded because you're retarded.

>>9557663
yes negative numbers mean something, but they dont exist. obviously.

>>9557657
To expand on when this physically happens:

You drive 5 miles north. You realize you need to go to the library (to read about math and stop being retarded). The library is 6 miles south of your current location (one mile south from starting location).

Represent, numerically, this trip to the library in terms of total miles traveled north, respective to starting location of 0, from start to finish. Show your work, because there's several cases here that prove algebraically and physically the existence of negatives.

Once you realize south is, in this case, algebraically acting as a negative number, go the library.

>>9557669
>i can't say -1 things
u just did, and i just explained how positive/negative numbers can be meaningful and existent

>rest of argument discarded because you're retarded.
in the words of you, "not an argument"

>>9557669
>negative numbers mean something but they dont exist

>>9557672
But you didn't go negative north.

You went positive south.

It's impossible to go negative north.

>>9557665

>>9557672
>>9557677
>>9557674
op here ur idiots

negitive numebers dont exist physically therefor they dont eisxist

>>9557679
Please answer the question or admit you are wrong. I did not say you go negative north or south, I asked you to numerically represent the trip (especially so in terms of mileage north respective to the starting position of 0).

>>9557674
you can say anything u want, doesnt mean it exists.

>>9557672
total miles travelled north is 5

>>9557681
Positives and 0 don't exist either then. Numbers aren't physical.

>>9557320
does debt exist op?

>>9557679
No it's not. It's just a designation of direction on a line. Just like you can go radial and antiradial. You can North and antiNorth. You're too hung up on semantics. +(-5) is the same as -5. You're just designating it a different word for the same direction.

OP here, i'm finished being entertained by you retards. Gonna go see a movie with my gf now. Thread was just to get (you)s, whos the brainlet now? Cya!

How many meters above sea level is the Death Valley, OP?

>>9557320
OP here... im trying to think of a way we can represent DEBT DOLLARS. if we have 3 dollars and we take away 5, we have 0 dollars and im 2 dollars in debt. 2 is a positive number... hmmm... how could we represent 2 dollars in debt?? hmmm i cant think of anything

>>9557690
oh shit OP got us good

>>9557683
>>9557683
I misworded, my apologies. Represent the trip numerically in terms of change of starting position of 0, do so algebraically or geometrically. Represent the origin with a, the trip north with point b, and the destination with point c just to make everything unambiguous.

>>9557690
>my """"""""gf""""""""

>>9557334
Do things exist in the first place.
Thinking of evaporating, HUP, etc.

You are in debt one apple my dude

You have $4 and you order a $5 beer at a bar, you have a dollar tab to pay my dude

my dude

>>9557690

>>9557460
when you say 5-1=4 you're saying 5+(-1) so essentially you're saying subtraction doesn't exist. Which may be true with the whole energy/matter can't be destroyed meme. Plus there's absolute zero. Is negative pressure real? Or is pressure an absolute zero as well? Once you get to zero particles that's as low of pressure as you can get right?

It's odd to see people actually sperging about the claim though. Tons of people can't into negative numbers but do people actually believe negative really exists? It's just a hypothetical, a function, but it's still just a concept

>>9557729
>do people actually believe negative exists?
that's just semantics. OP's troll is just saying "exists" instead of "exists physically" and then purposely playing semantics anytime someone tries to explain the meaning behind negative numbers by saying "it doesn't exist [physically] my dude u didnt prove anything im right ur wrong"

>>9557729
Do you think positives are any less abstract or somehow exist more than negatives do?

>>9557320
op here NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER

>>9557320
OP makes a good point. If negative numbers are just a concept why isnt there an answer for 1/0 too?

>>9557595
>>9557745
hey guys i just emailed the australian mensa organization. i sent it to a black employee we have OP's skin color, gender, the date of his mensa expiration, and the last letter of his short name.

this racism wont be taken lightly

>>9557746
Because it leads to contradictions. You can divide by 0 in certain fields, like binary.

It's also intuitive that you can't divide something by nothing, that's a contradiction even outside of mathematics.

>>9557320
Only what we agree exists, exists.

This thread no longer exists to me

>>9557752
>>9557320
i actually also just found some relevant exif data on the picture

>>9557765
oh no a super secret hax0r has gotten my personal info lmao. Should've just asked if u want my name, its Alex Smith and that's not even my card. Heres my facebook id 100008519616608, have fun doxing me mr epic hax0r.

>>9557410
IQ is just created so that it's normally distributed with mean 100 and sd 15. 0.000000001308392% of all people therefore have a negative IQ (actual number).

>>9557595
Why I'd your hand so fat? Is that where you keep all your knowledge? No wonder you're a 141, that ham hawk is huge.

Numbers aren't real
They are constructed

Negative numbers are constructed via symmetry of positive integers with respect to addition

>>9558134
It's called btw completing a semigroup

>>9558134
>Numbers aren't real
Indeed. OP obviously believes real and positive numbers exist (lol) and somehow negative numbers don't?? That's just subjective ignorance and OP is dumb dumb.

An example I always like to give to my students is "if we had given numbered items letters instead of values - i.e. a single rock is called *A* a pair of rocks is called *B*, would numbers exist?" The answer is clearly no, as numbers are just a concept used to describe physical things, Negative numbers are just as "real" as positive numbers.

>>9557320
>On this episode of "Shit posting on /sci/" we will claim something concrete and generally accepted and change all rules about what we mean when challenged!
>Let's watch

You can physically take 4 at that time. And then you take away one from the person at a future time when they get apples next. Logically they have one less apple than they physically have.
Stop shit posting and wasting your life. Your mother is probably upset at the difference of what you are and what you could have been.

>>9557324
Hey Michael, Vsauce here

This is some peak /sci/ trolling

>>9557320
Wrong. Electrons and positrons have opposite charges. One has to have the negative charge of the other.

>>9557369
That's the thing, you can't draw in -1, it's more like cutting the paper, so now, you can draw less, you don't have space.

Consider the antimatter apple

>>9557320
>I can just as well say that 1/0 is “@1”.
You mean [math]\hat{\infty}[/math]?

>>9557634
someone finally mentions charge

>>9557732
charge is physical, OP was fucked from the get-go


>>9559902
anon backs it up

ITT: everyone else wasted their fucking time

>>9557746
Scientist or engineer?? Seems like don't know about the foundations of math man, grab a set theory or Mathematical logic book to understand why your question doesn't make sense.

>>9559911
charge isn't negative, it's simply assigned a value that is opposite of what we assigned as positive. GTFO with your psuedo-physics. A 'positive' state could be defined as a and a 'negative' as b, this doesn't prove the existence of negatives

>>9557320
Just do computer science. It's awesome

>>9559938
>charge isn't negative, it's simply assigned a value that is opposite of what we assigned as positive

>>9559938

>>9557536
this but unironically

>>9559938
>Click here

>>9557454
>So you agree 5 + (-1) = 4
this isn't what is happening. You can't add a minus thing. The only thing you can do to things is add to them, divide them, or subtract them. If you have four things you can't subtract more than the total amount of things.

>>9557643
this is such a moronic argument to "prove" negative numbers exist
this is your argument but you are conveniently omitting that
a=b+c

>>9557320
I guess debt doesn't exist then either because how can anyone carry a negative balance when there's no such thing as negative? That is good for me since I have these asshole debt collectors hounding me for last semester's tuition I never paid.

>>9557692
obviously a trick question since death valley isn't above sea level

>>9559938
>charge isn't negative, it's simply assigned a value that is opposite of what we assigned as positive
That's literally what negative means you dumb flaming retard.

>>9557398
>>9557405
>>9559948

this is true there is no negative numbers in computers, it is fact that there is instead a bit associated which inverts the method of calculations for that associated memory address

>>9557320
= sign represents a gate. -1 represents a sheep that should be on the other side of the gate.

>>9557320
There are a lot of things that don't exist in the physical world, but do exist theoretically because they explain other phenomena that do occurr in the physical world. Think of negative numbers as tools, just like imaginary numbers.