/sci/ - Science & Math

God was just sitting there thinking about it for an eternity.
Or time=0 so there is no before big bang.

>>9370045
We don't know, look into "pre big bang" physics. I favor the cyclic universe model in which black holes consume most of our universe and then each other into a single point only to eventually expand recreating the big bang artificially. There are many connections between black holes and the singularity within the big bang also worth looking into it.

>>9370057
Are there many theists on /sci/? Do some believe creationism to be compatible with science?

The big bang is a way for "scientists" to have a god without actually calling it one.

Nothing. (all energy was still in there tho)

>>9370045

There is no such thing as a big bang.

>>9370061
I am a theist and I am most convinced by the rough-tuning argument, taking from a theistic stance. If you change the paramters of the constants of nature by 100%, yet alone by a magnitude of 10^1000 then the universe as we know it falls apart into chaos. We could change the values onward to infinity, leaving an infinitesimal chance that there is a universe with life.
Other considerations are that there is a multiverse, for which there is no evidence(Occam's Razor), or that we actually could not increase the values up to infinity due to some unseen physical description.

I don't think biblical creation is valid.

>>9370068

(((Scientist)))

t.Physicist master race

Nobody knows. I also don't know any method to experimentally verify the events that existed or did not exist before they came into existence.

>>9370082

Physicists are mathematicians, not scientists.

>>9370061
god is a scientist, it's just people accept quantum magic theories but somehow have a problem with a god creating things in a way that accept multiple interpretations that are really just a piece of the whole truth

>>9370093
How seriois of a Problem are quantum mechanics for traditional physics? Doesn't quantum uncertainity undermine determinist causality?

Quantum uncertainity implies that, for example, there is a probability that my iPad might explode in my face, without outer causes.

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast123/lectures/lec17.html

>>9370097

Modern science sees (assumes) reality as having a mechanically causative and deterministic nature. But it will never find an answer, the search will go on to infinity.

>>9370097
Things that work on a macro level stop working on a micro level, not to mention light, gravity and time are still not clear, not sure how can they pull a straight face while saying "so this works until it kinda doesn't"

>>9370141
Then why all this smugness against alternative theories, if the existing theories barely work?

>>9370045
If you assume that our space-time exists on a 5th dimensional level that can come into contact with other discrete 5th dimensional objects all existing in at least 6 dimensions then that contact could have caused a local pocket of energetic 4 dimensional space-time, i.e. the big bang.

god is an explanation stupid people cling to because its easy to grasp.

>>9370081
Try looking into the principles of Taoism.

>>9370142
At least they partially work, alternative theories (depending on which ones you're talking about) most of the time are an embarrassing mess and the only reason someone would believe in them is specifically to try and fight the status quo

Physicists condemn everything transcendental (all religion and spirituality, metaphysics) as implausible, yet they themselves arrived at “invisible singularities” and “probabilistic quantum vacuums”, which can only ever be assumed and never perceived.

>>9370142

Science supposedly prides itself on not being faith based, it's seen as direct opposition to religion, but it's turned exactly into a religion. Religious people also have that same smugness, they have complete faith what they've been told and there's no room for an alternative. Religion has its scripture in the form of holy books, and scientists have their scripture in the form of theories/equations.

The cosmic inflation, that is the most accepted theory (I don't remember if it is theory or hypothesis xD) between scientifics.

Nothing

Cute anime girls

>>9370184
The two are not as different as they appear. In science we use variables to represent distinct phenomena in the observable world. These are related to other variables and quantities in equations. Religious texts and myths use gods and goddesses to represent unique qualities and ideas. These are related to one another through the use of complex hierarchies and stories. However, the two differ wildly in their scope. Science is concerned only with what can be observed and measured while religion mainly deals with the imperceivable first causes. Ignorance of the latter limits the understanding of the former.

>>9370060
second this, at the point of atrophic singularity, i think the quantum field collapses towards a single point and we get like a great inversion that restarts it all again..

If you want to bake your noodle think about this, if the universe does restart from a singularity, then all its inanimate matter likely ends up in exactly the same place, the Milky way forms again, the sun forms, Earth forms again, and thus, we form again..
Have we lived before in the last universe? How would, or will, we ever know? heh

>>9370294
>Science is concerned only with what can be observed and measured

Real science is like that, modern science is not. The big bang for example is not observable, testable or repeatable. It's pseudo-science parading as real science. It's just as faith based as religion, the theory is the scripture.

>>9370328
Yeah, but without explaining first causes, science would be an unfinished draft. It would be merely useful for applications, like engineering or medicine, but useless for shaping our final understanding of the wor

That's a complicated question. It depends on what you mean by "God". I believe that that we are here implies to some degree that there are forces larger than us. The very notion of belief itself can be rhetorically whittled to the bare nub of its meaning.

>>9370328
>It's just as faith based as religion

this is the thing religious people tell themselves to make their magic sky daddy stories sound credible

>>9370060
I agree with this, sort of.
I just think the formation of a black hole generates more energy than is collected within it, creating a new universe much like this one, perhaps even more energetic than this one, that would help explain how a tiny spark could create all of it.

I'm not necessarily subscribed to this one imploding on itself as a end point.

>>9370342
>le magic spagehtti monster xDD
>>>/reddit/

>>9370331

Science should only be useful for practical purposes, that's what it's best at, that's what advances us. Getting stuck in metaphysical theories of first causes is a waste of time.

>>9370342

I'm not religious, it's another form of control.

>>9370189
That's after the big bang.

There's no rigorous scientific theory about what happened before the big bang, as all math breaks down at the singularity - and yer kinda boned at the planck level, before you even get that far.

There's also no observational way to test such ideas, due to this big nasty field of plasma radiating from our past - though there has been some work regarding measuring gravity waves from behind the CMB - not that it'd tell you a whole lot, but it could rule out various cosmological theories.

>>9370142
Cuz the accepted theories can be observationally tested, and are often used daily, while the alternative theories are either even more broken, or can never be observationally tested.

Not that there isn't constantly a plethora of theories in progress - gotta be a million quantum gravity theories competing with each other right now, and various other GUT's, that don't currently mesh with observation, but may yet one day with continued tweaking and new observations. So it isn't as if alternative theories are being ignored - there's a constant battle of unnatural selection among them - it's just the one's the creationists tend to like are shit.

It's not like the accepted theories have been set in stone for millennia or anything - even the standard model's been turned on its head at least four times in the last hundred years. The Hubble Telescope changed pretty much everything less than two decades ago, with that whole accelerating expansion thing.

>>9370354
>science is a religion

>>9370342
See
>>9370153

Approach these ideas with an open mind. One can be intelligent and not wise. There are many parallels between science and religion.

>>9370360
Just so you know, by "alternative theories" I didn't necessarily mean theist creationism, but, say, using alternative measurements or alternative concepts of time to get to the core of stuff. Perhaps the current framework hit its limits with quantum uncertainity and the big bang.

>>9370377
Yeah, there's millions of those in progress, just none have meshed yet... Discounting the ones that can't be tested, and thus aren't really science, but creative math. (Not that good things don't come out of creative math.)

Physicists, regularly, explore even the theories that they know are broken for that very reason. Some guys spend their whole lives going down the rabbit hole of some endless math, knowing full well that the whole concept is fundamentally flawed, and still manage to dredge up something. Exploration of the one-electron universe model, for example, lead to Feynman's path integral formulation, which was quite useful in itself, and got him a Nobel prize.

So even broken theories are explored. It's just, generally, when someone on /sci/ posts an "alternate theory" it's either something they've made up themselves without understanding the subject, because they don't like how the universe appears to work and think they're smarter than the whole world put together, or it's some religious crap that's utterly broken, even mathematically, masked by complexity, that they picked up from a blog, like electric universe, and taken a liking to.

>>9370371
Let me clarify. I meant the philosophies of some religions. Many religions are based on the wrong principles and blind themselves.

>>9370390
>Nobel prize

The Nobel prize was created by Alfred Nobel who "discovered" dynamite and owned an arms manufacturer. He was also awarded the Nobel peace prize. These people have a good sense of humor, albeit a little twisted.

Also, physicists wasting their lives on broken theories is silly. Do something useful.

>>9370407
>Also, physicists wasting their lives on broken theories is silly. Do something useful.
There's enough physicists to go around, and Feynman's results were quite useful, being core to cosmology today. Granted, *moist* applied mathematicians and physicists just explore such broken theories on the side, rather than dedicating all their time to them.

>>9370414
>*moist*
*most*... clearly my mind is elsewhere.

>>9370414

What has cosmology helped us with on earth?

>>9370428
Does your smartphone know where you are? Well, that, among a great number of other things, some of which the Internet depends on to function. The discipline has more spin-off techs than the space program itself.

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

>>9370045
Ultimately speaking, GOD, Absolute awareness without name or a clue of what it is and what its purpose is.
It's pretty much intimate, because God is you: it is your Absolute self!
https://scribd.com/document/81663974/I-AM-THE-ABSOLUTE

>>9370437

GPS uses cell phone towers/triangulation. I haven't seen any convincing evidence to show that satellites are even real. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy nut but it's true.

>>9370450
>>>/x/

>>9370453

Does GPS use cell phone towers or not?

>>9370450
dude, search crrow777 on youtube...You will like that:
* the moon and the sun are both plasmagrams, holograms
* the ball lightning phenomenon is very tied to the nature of both the sun and the moon

>>9370320
Nietzsche and may others were right. We are fucked for all eternity.

>>9370045
the death of the prior universe.

>>9370045
The long wait to the big bang.

>>9370061
Am theist. Don't believe in Biblical evolution. Have no opinion on the physics of the Big Bang because I'm not a physicist.

>>9370481
This is the definition of hell.

>>9370464
Not starting this "conversation" again. No amount of evidence I could possibly present via the internet, or direct you to with a telescope, will break you of your infowars generated paranoid delusions.

There's skepticism, and then there's deliberate ignorance - don't equate the two.

>>9370320
Accelerated universal expansion killed the big bounce theory for all time awhile ago. Though, some variants of big rip do allow for the possibility of a quantum vacuum event in the near infinite future creating a new universe, but uncertainty tells us it'll be nothing like this one.

>>9370471

I'm suspicious of any claims about what the moon and sun are by people who haven't been to them. It's all just theory/faith.

>>9370450
>flat earther creationist in /sci telling people science is a religion

>>9370045
ok it goes like this
universe was created -> some time passed -> massive inflation -> all of the rest of time passed
didn't happen all at once

>>9370045
Vishnu

>>9370488
>Have no opinion on the physics of the Big Bang because I'm not a physicist
Have you heard about such concepts as "self-taught physicist" and "diy"?

People say '[template] because i'm not an expert'. Well, nobody is a fucking expert!
We are all just self-trapped in a game of subjectifying things inside to make them seem like they are outside.

>>9370499
Anon, no one's been to the sun.

Before the Big Bang there was nothing.

Then came God called forward the words and the words were good.

"Brexit means Brexit"

God saw that it was good and called the word again to create all the world and the ocean on it and the firmament.

As above so below

>>9370492
>infowars

No thanks.

>There's skepticism, and then there's deliberate ignorance - don't equate the two.

Have you observed a satellite with your own eyes?

>>9370513
Yes. As has most anyone who lives in the boonies or owns a telescope. ...enough.

>>9370513
yes, it looked like a very faint fast moving star

>>9370511

Probably not, but I don't believe it's made of mainly hydrogen and helium either.

>>9370524
>>>/x/

Seriously, why do you folks keep coming here?

>>9370524
what about spectroscopic evidence?

>>9370527
Same reason all the anti-alien/ghosts/magic folks keep coming to /x/, I assume.

>>9370516
>>9370517

So you know for a fact what you saw was a satellite? They beam light do they?

>>9370499
ok, then try to see for yourself:
pastebin_com/Te3VmEpG

>not forgetting about "Diminished Reality" technology and the fact that military could have similar technology far more advanced than that though: all of my evidence could be 50/50 fake now!...

>and bitch, i can say the same thing about this reality: It's all just theory/faith.

>>9370543
well I can't know for sure it was a satellite but I was told it was and I believed them

>>9370510
I'm graduating tomorrow with a degree in CS. I say I'm not a physicist because the only thing I was proficient at in college physics was the digital part after dealing with transformers.

>>9370512
>As above so below
i see that you didn't put meaning into this phrase/principle, and you just used it without questioning what it could mean.
>for me, it means self-replication, self-recursion or fractality

>>9370517
>>9370516
search 'crrow777' on youtube. He talks about this stuff in deails.

>>9370567
I am sadly aware. I hope he either gets psychiatric help or decides to stop trolling stoners.

>>9370547

If the sun is a hologram then it's a useful one. The military are not as advanced as you think, we wouldn't have the internet if they were, it'd be gone by now.

>>9370549

Then I cannot accept that as convincing evidence.

>>9370586
>I am sadly aware. I hope he either gets psychiatric help or decides to stop trolling stoners.
wtf is this?! You are a shill, disnfo agent aren't you!

Instead of just calling crrow a crazy piece of shit, why not research his work more deeper or whatnot? He does have some good stuff on his channel.

>>9370630
>crrow777

The fucker is making money off of people. That's all I need to know.

I unironically became a Christian the further I got into studying physics and astrophysics.
And it’s not the “oh I don’t understand something so it must be God teehee” thing. That’s not even related.
It’s the patterns. The order and the chaos all in one. The complicated things that do something simple and vice versa.
Something fuckin weird is goin on basically

>>9370649
forget about money. Just listen to the info he's sharing
AND why not just try to convince few of the people who he's being ripping off that it's wrong?

>>9370045
The Big Crunch

>>9370672

If you actually cared about sharing what you considered to be true, you wouldn't put a financial barrier on it. He's just a fear mongerer profiting off of paranoia like Alex Jones.

>>9370666
>666
>Something fuckin weird is goin on basically
indeed

>>9370045
2 atoms.

>>9370682
Life is a game where we have some billions of years of reincarnation before universe resets itself

>>9370666
Exactly. The patterns are everything.
>>9370153

>>9370666
"The Tao gives birth to One.
One gives birth to Two.
Two gives birth to Three.
Three gives birth to all things."

>>9370697

>t. the universe

>>9370666
>666
Ahh, the odds of this on a post about a Christian finding patterns in the universe
Really makes u thonk

>>9370045
>before the Big Bang

the big Bonka Donk

>>9370733
Followed by a 33...

>>9370450
>I haven't seen any convincing evidence to show that satellites are even real.
Buy a telescope and look at the ISS

The Initial Singularity was in an equilibrium state waiting for someone to knock it out of an equilibrium state. The only existing being that could do that is God.

>god of the gaps: the thread
neck yourself

>>9370045
Your mom's vag filled with air.

>>9370916

It's travelling at 17,000mph and someone got a perfect shot of it like that? Do you see why I'm sceptical? I want a 4k livestream of an astronaut being sent up to dock with it at 17,000mph please. There's new people on that thing all the time so it doesn't seem dangerous.

>>9370061
I am Christian. Creationism is at odds with more than one school of science, but if you look at things more abstractly I would argue that God as a manifestation of unknown power (in this case, the Big Bang) is pretty much ubiquitous throughout the whole of human history.
The short answer is no, but I don't think that it matters. The Bible is not a scientific text to begin with.

>>9370359
You use the word control as a pejorative. Do you believe that you are beyond control?

>>9370766
followed by 66...

>>9371116
Followed by another 33 and 66...
>>9371033
>>9371066

>>9370450

>>9370512
>Then came God
from the toilet?

>>9370045
Quantum vacuum

>>9370060
Ayyy big crunch gang bluh

The answer to "why is shit so wonky" to all you deist nutballs is because our consciousness was a cosmic mistake and we were never meant to get this far in understanding. It's way way more likely we live in a simulation

>>9370045
Couldn't have 'happened' if there's no time.

>>9370061
The guy who came up with the idea of the Big Bang was literally a Catholic priest and a professor at a Catholic university.

>>9371588
Do Hawkins and consorts ever comment on the fact they're using a religious guys' explanation as their dominant theory?

>>9371589
You can still think that religion is a bad joke and respect the idea of a religious man.
The majority of great people who ever lived were religious.
(And Hawkins is insane in my opinion.)

>>9370061

I have a legitimate belief that, once we move far enough away from the dark ages (yes, persecution of scientists has been an atrocity) we'll see science and religion converge somewhat.

Several theories suggest more dimensions or universes than our own 4d universe. Heaven and hell exist somewhere right?

At some point science will admit it will never explain certain things for sure and oh look apparently religion has the answer.


etc

>>9370082
>master race

Nigger Jew detected

>>9370354
Dingly dooo!

>>9370145
Reasons.org dont agree with you. And yea they are way smarter than all of us.

>>9370450
Fucking /x/phile escaped containment again.

Go back to your potato board and chase after a firetruck there you fucking downie.

>>9370450
GPS uses trilateration of satellite signals you dumb fuck

>>9370045
other big bangs but further till it happend close

>>9370061
>Do some believe creationism to be compatible with science?
If the idea that we're living in a simulated universe is an acceptable theory then creationism is too by default. A lot of atheists just have trouble recognizing that a God is functionally no different than an extradimensional being who programmed our universe on his laptop. If you think one is a possibility than so is the other.

>>9370045
Nothing interesting

>>9371038
What is perspective? Why do things far away look like they're moving slowly while things close up look fast? Did you know the moon travels at a speed of 38 miles every second? It's not hard to take a picture of the moon.

>>9370045
The Big Bang is basically the starting point for the creation of the universe, so only God existed eternally before but without space and time.

>>9370045
>Brainlet here.

Brainlet detected.

>>9370505
t. science fundamentalist upset having his sacred beliefs questioned

>>9370093
but there is mathematical proof for the quantum phenomena and observational studies, unlike god

>>9370061
exactly zero people here believe in god(s) they're just lying

>>9373077
Mathematical proof the Earth is flat

>>9373176
no brainlet, that only proves earth has a curvature

>>9370666
This, the further you go the more firm the belief becomes

Foreplay?

>All these brainlets saying we don't know.

We do know, you idiots. We have one theory that is supported by evidence (the microwave map of the universe) and it's the only theory with any evidence to support it. It's called Inflation. The theory goes that the natural state of space is inflation. Every so often, quantum fluctuations make a point of space dip below a certain threshold and become a bubble of stabilized, low energy space with randomised physical laws.

>>9373903
But why is there something instead of nothing?

>>9374244
There can never be nothing because of the uncertainty principle. At quantum scales, you can cannot accurately measure position and momentum at the same time. The more accurately one is defined, the less defined the other is. There are these things called virtual particles that take this to the extreme. They have perfectly defined momentum, so their position is "everywhere". It's possible to make these particles appear out of nothing, although the conditions for it are limited in our universe. Supposedly, outside of the universe there is no restriction at all on these things becoming real. So everything is a constant clusterfuck of matter appearing out of nowhere infinitely fast, aka "inflation". Sometimes you get bubbles of space where particles stop forming, due to quantum fluctuations creating the right conditions. These are universes.

Vote for SENS and LEAF for P4A 2017!!

http://www.projectforawesome.com/?charity=7RGRgIDG

>>9374356
That's an interesting theory you got there anon. Any further reading on such a matter? (Pun not intended but happily welcome)

>>9374356
Doesn’t that just mean that science abandons the pretense of explaining everything exactly and admits there are things beyond or reach?

>>9370080
Holy shit, how do you find your own house in neighbourhood like this?

>>9374873
It's not just my theory. You've probably already heard of it and never really looked into it before. It's called the multiverse theory. I've just explained a part of it that deals with what's in-between universes.

>>9375240
No.

>>9370045

The universe is a vortex, not bird shot or a grenade.

>>9371038
>I'm NOT going to look into that telescope!!!!

>>9370349
I've never considered that, very interesting idea. I do believe that there are multiple universes/planes of existence, wherever/whatever they are, but that's one of the better ideas I've heard so far. Proving it would be damn near impossible though.

My field isn't physics though so I have no idea what I'm talking about.

>>9374873
https://youtu.be/IcxptIJS7kQ?t=24m40s

>>9375763
Schizophrenia belongs on >>>/x/

>>9370081
>Occam's Razor
Are you implying that an omnipotent being takes less assumptions than the universe not being the only universe? If there's one of something then there can very easily be more.

>You -> Big Bang -> Omniverse
Our universe is a mere bubble in an infinite sea where they pop in and out of existence
>Omniverse{
Infinite bubble universes{
Universe stable enough to support life{
Life evolves consciousness{
You are here}}}}

>>9376108
If the idea is just made up on the spot, it's not a good idea. I feel angry when I see people getting awed by this kind of bullshit.

>>9376359
Given infinite time, any non zero probability event will happen repeatedly.

>>9370045
god ate some beans. then he ripped a fat one out of his ass LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

>>9376552
Now you have to show that the probability for your God isn't zero

>>9370061
I am a deist, if that counts.
Creationism seems like a load of mumbo jumbo to me.

>>9376666
Makes perfect sense. Now i see why Pythagoras outlawed beans.

>>9373065
>science is a religion

Someone asked St. Augustine what God was doing before he made the universe.
"Creating a hell for people who ask questions like that!"

>>9370045
Opossum God

>>9370045
Singularity

>>9370045
There was nothing and we were created by a quantum fluctuation.

I have a crazy personal theory that we're not the only existing result of a big bang, and that there are multiple expansion shells. Some ahead of us, Some Behind us, maybe one day, in the distant future we'll find a big bang has occurred at some other point in the universe and great big wave of stars and galaxies are heading towards us.

I freely admit i've not got much basis for it, but i feel it's a nice idea.

>>9377399
it can happen, but its chances and to find out for sure, uncertainty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartle%E2%80%93Hawking_state

>>9373903

inflation is the mechanism behind big bangs (yes, multiple bangs) but it is not the whole story because while it can go on infinitely once it starts, it most likely cannot be infinite into the past

some kind of initial condition of the universe, such as a hartle hawking state or string perturbative vacuum, is required to create spacetime upon which eternal inflation then acts

>>9370061
/sci/ doesn't believe in mods.

If mods exist then why do bad posts happen to good threads?

>>9370068
This post was a way for "non-shitposters" to have a god without actually calling it one.

>>9377640
mods are trash. mods are dead.

What are the rules dictating how chess pieces move before the game begins?

>>9370061
I'm not religious but I'm christian by tradition so I just celebrate Holidays and go to church about two days a year.
I think Religion is a system of belief first and foremost and that it shouldn't be used as proof for anything. Thing is, you can always reach a point of investigation where there is either no explanation (yet) or the circumstances seen to come down to luck/chance (for example: explaining the big bang, or wondering why you were the only one to survive in a car accident). I think its okay to BELIEVE that there is a higher power in control when you reach that point, but of course, "belief" is never a good answer.
I think science and religion are compatible just because religious beliefs can be used as an anecdote for when we don't have concrete information.
i might not make too much sense but I see religion as a belief system and belief and fact are completely different as long as you aren't dumb enough to let your beliefs get in the way of believing in fact.

>>9376763
Catholic church in a nutshell

>>9377468
It most certainly can go infinitely into the past.

>>9370045
Nothing, no space, no time, no matter.

>>9370045
Nothing... so basically everything.
Everything was everywhere but nowhere at the same time. That's how every it could get.
Everything happened before everything so it never actually happened because it already happened before.

>>9375240
No, it just means randomized events do exist.
If you look through and derive Schrodinger equations it's actually very insightful.
To calculate it you use operators and if you solve these operators in a different order your result is different. This is different than order of operations and this implies non-linearity as you have no idea what side of the equation is going to happen first so to speak.

For instance in classical mechanics f=ma. I can doesn't matter how I plug shit in it's going to get the job done. For quanta to be described I have to use a double derivative and a couple other piece of shit operations. The difference or eigenfunction (google it it's cool) is possibly randomness itself.

>>9379269
Science does not purport to be able to examine the metaphysical, so anything metaphysical is compatible with science.
A lake of fire that burns for eternity is impossible but if it's metaphysical that means it doesn't follow physical law, making it unable to prove or disprove.

The major difference between science and religion, which is the source of the friction between the two, is that religion's investigatory method is to verify your previous beliefs while science's method is to continuously attack all theories and believes in attempt to strengthen them.
While this can bode well with theologians who like to think most people aren't okay with attacking the beliefs they have held and their families have held for generations.