/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9368706
Killing an insane person stops them from being insane.

>>9368709
But they weren't dead.

>>9368706
Can't be insane if you have no brain function left

p-zombies are a philosophical thought experiment, not a thing that actually exists

>>9368722
Why can't you remove consciousness by lobotomizing a person until they only has necessary neurons for bodily functions? Is psychosurgery not precise enough?

>>9368724
p-zombies aren't just people with no consciousness, they're people with no consciousness who are indistinguishable from people with them
which is fucking stupid, consciousness is just self-reflection, which is a trait that's pretty visible
it's like a person who has no ability to comprehend any red object, but still deals perfectly well with normal life and all it's red objects because hurr analytical philosophy

>>9368731
Maybe p-zombie wasn't the best word choice. I wanted to convey concept of a person functioning without consciousness due to a mad scientist removing the crucial neurons necessary for consciousness. Is this possible? Has this been done in other animals?

>>9368722
>>9368731
>>9368733
stop saying p-zombies you fucking faggot

>>9368740
>stop discussing the subject
neck yourself you fat faggot

>>9368741
You're a complete piece of shit. Get a better degree that philosophy you fucking leech.

>>9368749
analytic philosophy isn't actually philosophy though

>>9368741
>>9368749
>>9368740
It was a mistake to stop lobotomizing people.

an excellent read:
http://thejns.org/doi/pdf/10.3171/2017.6.FOCUS17251

>did it work

A resounding yes. The goal was to reduce the problematic and dangerous behavior of severe psychotics. In this sense (and this sense alone), transorbital lobotomies were and remain highly effective.

>did they really make insane people not insane

In a structural sense yes, see above. Insanity is a behavioral diagnosis. It's not a medical test like how an x-ray reveals a broken bone; a person must engage in specific patterns of behavior to be deemed insane. Transorbital lobotomies put an end to that problem behavior so, in at least this level, their "insanity" has been "cured."

>p-zombie

kys

>minimum amount of neuron cells

Not sure what you're asking here - how much of the brain can you destroy before the human dies? Generally the brainstem is considered the minimum structure necessary to sustain life (breathing, heart functions, metabolic systems and homeostasis, etc.). Neuron cells probably don't mean what you think they mean.

>>9368797
Thank you for answering. Brain stem is nerve cells which is a synonym of neuron cells, so I think I know what I mean.

>>9368804

>Brain stem is nerve cells

No it isn't. The brain stem is the general cluster of brain structures we consider as a unit for analytic and functional purposes. The cellular makeup of any substructure is largely irrelevant and there are too many different types of brain cells to collapse into a generic "nerve cell" category. Furthermore, nerve cells generally refers to neurons along nerve structures, not any cell in the brain.

>nerve cells which is a synonym of neuron cells

No it isn't. Nerve cells are found throughout the body. Neurons are not just nerve cells found in the brain. Neurons are entirely different unless you're armchairing from a Wikipedia article or something.

>>9368706
My mom has schizophrenia and won't take her meds. Is a lobotomy the only cure?

>>9368706
>Being dead makes you doscile

Whomest would of thunked it.

>>9368821
Istitutionalize and force medication. Release when she gets better and shows that she can medicate herself, check up on her regularly for an extended period of time.
There.

>>9368724
It's called brain death and you don't need a lobotomy to do that to someone.

There were some lobotomy success stories, link related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alys_Robi
It's not that lobotomies never worked, it's that, when they failed, it made the patients far far worse off than no intervention at all. And they failed a lot.

>>9368812
Ok, I am told. More questions: what happens exactly when you strip off all of brain except for the brainstem? Does it resemble a person in coma?

>>9369733
If the person was still alive, they'd have no more sensation or feeling than a carrot.
Famous case; Karen Ann Quinlan
Severe brain damage but was kept alive for decades because of demands by politicians who insisted she was "conscious" but unable to communicate.
Finally her body DID die and autopsy showed pretty much everything but the brainstem was totally ruined. She hadn't had a single thought in all the years since her accident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Ann_Quinlan

>>9368812
I'm not sure you got that right my man. You confuse neurons, nerve cells, and neuronal cells.

>>9368706

barbaric procedure. hard to believe this was considered ethical, even in the 20th century.

seems more like human experimentation than beneficial treatment.

>>9370151
>"conscious" but unable to communicate

sounds like a severe case of autism

>>9368733
>>9368724
We're your parents related? Like, before they were married?

>>9368706
>DId it work? Did they really make insane people not insane?

Well it made them not insane, but it also made them brain dead. So I guess the lobotomy was technically a "success", depending on your perspective.

>>9368821
Lobotomy isn't a cure for anything so no.

>>9368887
That depends largely on how you define failure. Many "succesful" lobotomies still left the patient far worse of than no intervention.

>>9368821

Do you want her to lose the ability to walk and talk? Then sure, go ahead.

>>9370186
In hindsight sure, at the time and especially in the short term though it could make someone who often suffered from delusions that made them a danger to themselves and others into someone who was always as gentle as a lamb.

>>9370267

would have been far more humane to put them out of their misery entirely rather than progressively damaging their brain until they're easier to deal with.

>>9368722
>p-zombies
what if I told you that the older you get the less consciousness you are and that this process begins in late teenage-hood.

>>9370186
Some of those barbaric procedures have proved to be useful in some cases though. Like the electroconvulsive therapy. But yeah at least now we're putting the patients to sleep before.

>>9371903

ect doesn't involve someone manually whisking your brains with an icepick.

>>9368876
Necromancy is real.

>>9371963
>>9370267

>t. working psychiatrist