/sci/ - Science & Math

that's fucking bullshit man

>>9282241
Monetary system of universities is fucked with or without this tax bill. Some more piss in an ocean of piss isn't going to matter.

>>9282241
>graduate student tuition waivers will now be considered taxable income
oh how nice, you don't have to pay taxes on money you earned. how about you grow the fuck up and pay like the rest of society who work for a living?

>>9282259
bait harder

>>9282263
>things I disagree with are bait
this is economic reality showing you the truth - your wages are dogshit, and are about to get worse, because nobody wants to pay for you to piddle around on some professor's pet project that will never leave the walls of a uni and contribute to the economy

>>9282241
Great. Grad students don't deserve tax money

>>9282283
Getting better

It'll be intriguing to watch how far you masochists can be pushed before you're forced to call it quits and your broken grant whoring system buckles. It's going be even more glorious when the long overdue recession hits and that cosmic scale student loan bubble bursts.

>>9282285
>gradcuck still in denial
riddle me this - why do you need money involuntarily harvested from the public to support your academic faggotry? because nobody wanted it to begin with!

Isn't this the opposite of a stipend

>>9282292
Little too strong, bit too obvious. Maybe work on punctuation, seems way too overthought.

ITT: Entitled poor retards whine about not getting all of their gibs

>>9282301
my work here is done. hopefully some of the young anons lurking will become uncucked and avoid the path to debt slavery and anal bruising from the labor market

>>9282283
>never leave the walls of uni
Nigger I just saw a PhD student present a powerpoint about using partially coherent light to determine blood coagulation during open heart surgery and if you don't think that's tight as fuck you can suck my hard dick

Yeah b8 I know, eat shit

>>9282283
>>9282292
The same can be said for undegrad or even K-12 education. Why waste public money on young people sitting around not being productive for 18+ years? The answer: because education is an investment in the future.

>>9282311
Much better. Now it looks like you actually don't care. Good job!

>>9282318
If the investment isn't yielding a good return it's a poor investment and logical to stop that investment.

>>9282324
Grad students are a piss cheap investment. You can hire 10 GTA's for the price of one professor. And your school gets to publish papers and shit on the side.

Can't wait to be below the national poverty line thanks to taxing a technicality.

>>9282259
Guilty cocker spaniels eating table scraps, and when we rolled over how our masters clapped. Well it felt so good we wanted more of that, but when the program failed they defensively laughed.
"we did things just how you asked, don't try takin' us to task."
You didn't bite a face, no just a mask. So happy halloween.

>>9282333
Maybe it's time to reflect on the poor life choices that have brought you into your bad position and start making better decisions.

>graduate student tuition waivers will now be considered taxable income.

I'm interested in the logic here, what exactly is the end game to taxing graduate tuition waivers? Is there a benefit to such a move outside being a pure cash grab?

Wouldn't you want to place more incentive in Americans to investing in doctoral research? Or did Republicans finally give up and decided to let China overtake America in another field of interest?

>>9282340
That's less tax money that needs to come from corporations.

>>9282338
Grad students aren't exactly junkies who can't hold down a job at McDonalds. They put up with a low standard of living for a few years to get educated and be among the best in their fields.

>>9282340
>Wouldn't you want to place more incentive in Americans to investing in doctoral research?
Nope. Incentives should be result oriented, not pursuit oriented. PhDs don't mean shit for society when PhD holders aren't accomplishing things.

>>9282333
I'm dealing with probate bullshit. Each year they require you to submit a manifest of assets and income, and you must pay a filing fee to do so. In addition to 250 dollars up front to do anything, myriad transfer taxes for every conceivable asset in the estate.

Taxing the taxed tax tax tax. Then they screw you for payroll too, and make you wait a year to have disability while you're dying. Then they rape you out of all that social security they sucked out of you. Good ol' Teddy Roosevelt said his greatest achievement was "saving capitalism". All these programs at the time did come at a slight cost to the rich, sometimes you have to give a little so you won't lose it all, but at this point all these systems are just another mechanism to siphon money out of the upper middle class. Life support, deliberately. Where do people's welfare, food stamps, etc come from? The middle (lower) class. Where does it go? The very entities consolidating wealth to begin with.

It's all trash.

>>9282350
Do you not think PhDs contribute to society? Even if I grant you that PhDs in academia all sit around doing theoretical bullshit all day and don't contribute, still about half of PhDs (in physics anyway, not familiar with other fields) find work outside academia right out of grad school.

>>9282350
>Nope. Incentives should be result oriented, not pursuit oriented.
You liberal niggers need to kill yourselves. You can't tell the difference between (((profits))) and results.

Clinton-era "results oriented" regulations mutated NSF, DARPA, NIH into development outfits and have crippled American scientific research.

Did you know, millenial faggot, that by today's "results-oriented" standards, the Laser would never have been funded because it had no practical application at the time of its invention?

>>9282241
If I make $0/yr am I somehow going to pay tax for making $14,000?

>>9282378
Yep. You better, or else.

>>9282365
So give money to the half that do things that matter, and don't give money to the half that don't. Why should the bullshit people be paid at all?
>>9282367
Yeah let's all sit around and take taxpayer money to make worthless bullshit that might be useful in the future because of this cherry picked example of one time it was actually useful.

>>9282345

But given the population of PhD applicants is that really a significant enough sum of money to bother with? I could see the logic if you went after BA applicants since that is a significantly bigger pool to tax but this doesn't seem big enough to make it worth it.

>>9282350

>Incentives should be result oriented, not pursuit oriented.

For one to obtain "results" one must be required to pursue it first. If you do not give incentive to the pursuit then you will not receive results usually. Most humans work this way which is why money plays an important role especially in the American job market.

>PhDs don't mean shit for society when PhD holders aren't accomplishing things.

People pursuing PhDs by default are accomplishing things by contributing to a growing body of academic/practical research. You typically cannot work on a PhD without some form of thesis research or institutional residency to work for.

Now whether or not the thesis research or residency at hand derives high value to society is something else altogether. But that is typically a case by case issue.

Can we all just stop pretending the purpose is strictly financial? It obviously isn't.

>>9282398
Oh, I was being facetious. It's obvious that there's no fiscal reason to be doing this. Fuck, it's a stretch to even consider it income.

>>9282318
>Why waste public money on young people sitting around not being productive for 18+ years
I agree, modern K-12 schooling should become privatized since the public funded results have proven to be a wash. your kids are not learning math, science or how to write. instead they learn to categorize themselves into tribes based on their gender, skin color, sexual orientation, political affiliation, etc. and use these things as ways to claim victimhood status and gain access to other peoples' money and opportunities. then they participate in protests, throw feces and garbage cans through the windows of businesses run by working americans, and then use their tax money to write a 6-year dissertation about the experience

>>9282340
academia has a piss-poor track record of producing anything of value in recent times, that's why they will be rewarded less money. after all, if they did produce valuable things, people would want to pay for them. government grants for academia are an artificial life support system for a creature that could not survive without it

and now someone tell me how is this post related to science or mathematics?
go discuss that shit on /pol/

>>9282396
but that "one time" that it does turn out useful, it revolutionizes entire fields and makes the corporate masters (the ones you're presently shilling for) the trillions of shekels they crave. the mountains of "worthless bullshit that might be useful in the future" are the residue of true scientific research. if you're not willing to pay theoretical physicists to develop the models, and you're not willing to pay for failed experiments that ultimately went nowhere, you won't fucking get the laser.

it's ok. china will pick up where americucks left off. enjoy your "results."

>>9282398
>If you do not give incentive to the pursuit then you will not receive results usually
This is bullshit. The reward for the result is the incentive for the pursuit. Incentivizing the pursuit itself encourages never getting the result, because once you get the result you can't pursue it anymore, which means no more incentive.
>case by case issue.
So let the cases that aren't worth it go broke, and let the ones that make money make money.

>>9282420
Letting China pay for useless research that goes nowhere is fine with me. Having to go back 60 years to find something that justifies your paycheck is ridiculous. Start doing something useful.

>>9282241
If you earn money you have to pay taxes, sweety.

>>9282420
Are you already planning to leave?

>>9282420
the bulk of useful recent scientific advancement has not come from academia, it's been through companies with privately owned research labs. look at all the academic research that went into electric cars, which never went anywhere and was limp dick whimpy cuck shit. then elon musk came in with some american private sector muscle and a stiff dick, and now we have electric vehicles on the market that people will actually pay money for

>>9282241
If this actually goes through I might just say fuck it and leave grad school. I'm only a first year and I confident I can get a job in industry. Also grad school culture is really libcucked out now and its kind of annoying desu

>>9282312
That's fucking dope

As someone who is considering returning to University for postgraduate study, I'm very glad not to be an American

>>9282432

It's a waiver. I don't pay taxes on the second pizza I get with my buy-one-get-one-free-coupon.

>>9282241
Another thing to consider is that tuition wavers wouldn't need to exist if grad schools didn't charge grad students tuition and treated us as employees. Idk the logistics behind changing that but I think it shouldn't be too hard of a change to just hire PhD candidates as employees as that's essentially what they are anyway kind of like a post-doctoral position.

>>9282509
a waiver which is rewarded based on you teaching or doing research for the university, either way it's money someone had to pay for that's awarded to you regardless of mental gymnastics

>>9282241
>thousands more per year in taxes

How much do you think students get in tuition? Certainly not enough to need to pay thousands in taxes per year.

>>9282412
>modern K-12 schooling should become privatized

You didn't got to a private school?

>>9282513
A waiver which is pointless. It's just a way for the university to say "What do you mean you aren't being paid enough? We aren't making you pay the pointlessly high out of state graduate tuition! Be thankful!"

>>9282241
Another thing to consider is that tuition wavers wouldn't need to exist if grad schools didn't charge grad students tuition and instead treated us as employees. Idk the logistics behind changing that but I think it shouldn't be too hard of a change to just hire PhD candidates as employees as that's essentially what they are anyway kind of like a post-doctoral position.

>be Polish
>Polish taxpayer gave me a scholarship and paid for my BSc back in Poland in full
>EU taxpayer gave me a scholarship and paid for for my MSc in the UK in full
>PhD in UK funded in full via EU research grant
>mfw I got UK citizenship in April last year and voted Brexit two months later

>>9282259
Bingo. “Tax him not me!”

>>9282520
>>9282510
Accidentally double posted my bad senpai

>>9282241
Anyone know if it is taxed in countries in Europe? Like UK, Germany, Switzerland, etc...?

>>9282558
It's not taxed in the UK.

>>9282292
>>9282283
who shit you /pol/tards are the most pathetic people ever . When trump lowers taxes on rich people you praise him and suck his dick but when highers taxes on us middle class students who are suffering you also suck his dick. Men fuck you university education should be fucking free instead of getting taxed on waivers. because of people like you rich chinks are beating us in our universities.

>>9282241
They could also just lower the tuition or declare it as $0 for all PhD students in X department. Or they could just pay students the extra 2-3 grand it will cost in taxes. I don't think anyone can seriously claim that universities are struggling to pay for grad students in 90% of institutions, and they don't have the option of putting the debt on the backs of the students.

Of course, it's a silly thing to tax at the full rate. The university hands you money that you're forced to hand right back. If I pass a $100 bill between myself and a friend 1,000 times, does that mean that I need to pay taxes on a $100,000 income? At a reduced rate, I wouldn't mind because an education does have a monetary value.

That being said, it's a preliminary bill. Just write to congressmen if you're concerned. Neither party has any interest in impeding US STEM education. At the very least, we can get it reinstated for US citizens and let all of the pajeets and chinks suffer.

>>9282583
University SHOULD NOT be free. I agree that due to loans tuition has gotten out of control and getting taxed on waivers are BS but making it completely free is moronic.

>>9282588
why it should be free so only the good students can make it to uni and not the richest one for the example if MIT wants 1000 freshman , they will just look at the top 1000 gpa's and sat scores sent to them and choose those students. The student will ofc choose the best uni that admitted him instead of choosing the cheapest uni or the uni that is gonna offer some fat scholarship which are very unfair.

>>9282592
Yes but how would you pay the faculty to teach? Or pay the cost to maintain the facilities or house the students. The government can't fund all of that unless we really ramp up taxes

>>9282597
Why not try taxing those who can afford to make their country a better place?

>>9282597
Ahh you know that other goverments do that.
First off all we have to slash all that money going to the retarded college athletics . Colleges are for studying and not tackling and apehooping. yeah sure it's ok to have some college sports but not in the crazy american war
2nd , slash military budget and financial aid
3rd , make american universities super expensive for non americans and almost free for americans especially when in-state

>>9282604
american way*

>>9282528
my side's
fucking pollack

oh btw colleges being free will make things much fairer. College admission policies are not scientific and are really shady . When things become free and scholarships become just a bonus, colleges should start having a price formula. for example the admission score for college x will be your gpa*4 + sat*2 + subject sat*1 . So if college x wants 500 engineering students . The 500th guy with a score 27.1/28 will make but the guy with the 27.05/28 won't make it and it would be totally fair.

>>9282612
Lol

How do you distribute funding? Will the government be the arbitrator of which schools get enough money to be "good" or "bad," and can this be used to target certain states?

What do you do when the US college system turns into the US high-school system where standards are universally lowered so black people can pass? Why are you delusional enough to think that a policy enacted based purely on a sense of entitlement will do anything other than turning into a degree mill for the people that voted for it?

>>9282601
With how expensive college is do you honestly think that we can tax people enough to pay for it without people losing more than 50% of their income

>>9282612
gpa isn't a fair measure. There are private schools with so much extra credit for in class activities you have to actively try to not get a 4.0, and on the flip side, there's classes where it's actually impossible to get a 4.0 because the teacher made a mistake with their grading system.

>>9282635
no it won't
>>9282631
by university rankings
>hat do you do when the US college system turns into the US high-school system where standards are universally lowered so black people can pass?
they won't because black people would barely make it when things become free and based on performance.
M8 , i am not talking about an imaginary system . German universities are free and they are fine.
>>9282640
still more fair than money and retarded scholarships like scholarships for latino gay women with east african and north indian ancestry. and we can fix by having a national exam every semester or every year so all schools and students take similar curriculums and exams.

>>9282609
It's a pasta

>>9282642
>German universities are free and they are fine.

Germany is 89% white. The U.S. is 56%.

>>9282645

Not an argument

>>9282604
I am okay with cutting sports and making college a lot cheaper. However from a fundamental standpoint I don't like the idea of using tax dollars to subsidize education at the undergraduate level. Its already getting out of hand right now with loans going through the roof.Especially due to the fact that colleges are private institutions and can change tuition on a dime to suit their needs. At graduate level it should be allowed only if the student apply s for a fellowship when doing research pertinent to the interest of the state or a private organization

>>9282588
I wouldn't mind state unis being free provided that everyone understands that only smart people with good ACT/SAT scores are going to get to go for free. Not everyone needs to go to college.

>>9282643
I've posted it before but it's the truth.

>>9282655
I mean isn't that essentially what we have now with scholarship programs

>>9282286
Holy shit dude

>>9282642
That's the issue. They won't make it through, they'll scream racism, and standards will drop into the shitter across the US.

University rankings are a pretty fickle metric.

>>9282292

newfag...

I don't understand the animosity here. What programs are deriving so much hatred?

>>9282367
>Clinton-era "results oriented" regulations mutated NSF, DARPA, NIH into development outfits and have crippled American scientific research.

Go on. What do you mean by development outfits

>>9282635
Why not look to other countries where it's the norm? How do they raise enough revenue to do it? And how do people cope with the taxes there?

>>9282513

>A pizza which is rewarded based on you buying another pizza from the restaurant, either way it's a pizza someone had to bake that's awarded to you regardless of mental gymnastics

I still don't it. I already paid for the first pizza.

>>9282779
If you go to a public uni or receive government grants which 'waive' the pizza for you, then it's still someone else paying for it that isn't you and never asked for you to get a pizza to begin with

>>9282583
except I'm not a trump supporter, I just want academicians to pay taxes on money they earn just like everyone else. the rich may have their taxes lowered, but they still have to pay more than literally zero dollars

also: why don't the grad students just ask their advisors to pay out of pocket for whatever the taxes cost? after all if their lab's work is truly of value, then paying their own researchers should be justified.

spoiler: they won't because even they don't wanna pay for that bullshit, but it's ok if everyone else pays for it

ITT: mad brainlets who couldn't get into grad school frogpost their insecurities until taxing people who don't make money is somehow justified when Jewry mckikester from apple can pay .0005 % on his gazillions he stores in apple

Fuck off retards this board is for actual scientists, aka PhD

>>9282241
rly makes me appreciate not being a retarded american

>>9282866
>>9282345
>>9282350
>>9282402
>>9282412
>>9282426
>>9282584


I'm >>9282340 here, I just checked on something that I apparently overlooked earlier this year.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/04/24/house-backing-away-proposal-tax-gi-bill.html

Now I'm starting to understand the logic behind this proposal on taxing tuition waviers. Congress wanted to originally go after G.I. bill recipents by taxing their school assistance. The military pushed back and they backed off. Now they're going after a softer target with less resistance that being civilian grads.

It all makes sense now, at first I was trying to wrap my brain around the issue some more since I also realized this proposal of taxing waviers could be argued as a violation of the yellow ribbon program (civilian institution and military joint tuition waiver) but now I see the logic (a bit underhanded though).

>>9282792
Nobody needs to be paying tuition as a PhD student. It's a farce.

>>9282241
>he fell for the PhD meme
>he took out school loans

>>9283133
Way to out yourself as not knowing anything about PhDs.

>>9282764
Why, so we can convert the US to a socialist nation? The demographics are nowhere near homogenous enough to even think about such a thing. The only reason Scandinavian countries (the only countries I can assume you're referring to where low cost or free uni is the norm) has low costs for university is due to obscenely high tax rates and a relatively homogenous society. US has a low tax rate and a heterogeneous society, neither of which are conducive to subsidizing college for everyone who wants to attend.

>>9282514
My undergraduate scholarship was taxable income worth close to $50,000 a year and I paid a few thousand in taxes on it every year.

>>9282431
Chinese research results in Chinese patents that western companies will have to pay for to license. Huawei and ZTE are not among the top 10 PCT patent application filers.

Useless? I don't think so.

>>9282903
this

>>9282318
>Why waste public money on young people sitting around not being productive for 18+ years? The answer: because education is an investment in the future.
What the fuck am I reading?

>>9282903
It's justified solely by your butthurt post. And no one envies the cuck life of a grad student that goes without saying.

>>9283229
>The only reason Scandinavian countries (the only countries I can assume you're referring to where low cost or free uni is the norm) has low costs for university is due to obscenely high tax rates
I think their tax rates are pretty comparable to, say, California.

>and a relatively homogenous society.
Nonsense. There are many societal problems that increase or decrease with societal homogeneity, but subsidized education is not one of them.

The reason the Scandinavian countries can subsidize their education is that, by virtue of having relatively limited government corruption, their education is *cheap*, making systems that give it away quite feasible. The reason it could not easily work in the US is that the level of government is so high that (among many other things) college costs have gone through the roof.

>>9282398
>>But given the population of PhD applicants is that really a significant enough sum of money to bother with?
nope.

my stipend is about 30k before taxes and in-state tuition is about 12k. if tuition waivers are taxed as income, my taxes paid go from about 4k to about 6.2k. There's about 10k graduate/professional students at my university, which means this will be a tax increase of about twenty million dollars for the federal government.

it's a pittance

>>9283511
Meanwhile, tax breaks for the 1%
gg America

>>9282241
Fuck .

>>9282412

>academia has a piss-poor track record of producing anything of value in recent times

Tell me about all the non-PhDs currently running biomedical research, AI development, defense research, and materials sciences

>>9283511

Worst of all it's a pittance for the government that, for individuals, can make the difference between going to grad school or not.

I already eat rice and beans everyday. Fuck that. Beer and PS3 games are my only luxury.

>>9283663
Disposable malnourished PHDs aren't running the show. Accomplished autodidacts that go on to startup a research firm do. It's goes without mention that many high profile inventors and researchers throughout history didn't have degrees.

Look. PHDs are unable to thrive out of academia and lack the skills businesses are in need of.

https://medium.economist.com/why-doing-a-phd-is-often-a-waste-of-time-349206f9addb

Autistic savants that you have to physical pry from their personal science project are the future. Not some Zhao Yun who forms a crying circle over A- in biochemistry he got for not fulfilling some bulshit arbitrary unspecified aesthetic requirements in lab report graph.

>>9283801
It's funny how people who have obviously never been near a PhD program are always so hostile towards them, making up ridiculous caricatures of graduate students based on nothing in an attempt to attack any lifestyle different from their own.

>>9283478
A hyperbole.

Well, this sounds like an actual problem. Can we get a march for science going on?

>>9283975
it's because we grade them .

>>9282866
This post makes several points.
1) The poster has never been an academic
2) The poster has never filed their own taxes
3) The poster doesn't know or understand how scientific funding can be spent

>>9282241
4D chess on Trump's part to move all university research to based Russia

>>9284047
MAGA by taxing already under-appreciated STEM researchers. Yep. Trump's got this POTUS thing down.

I doubt this will make it into the final bill. This wouldn't even raise much of any revenue

>>9284057
Agreed, but the fact that it has been proposed is infuriating. I'm glad I graduated prior to this crap plan being authored.

Why do universities even have these waivers to begin with? Why not just eliminate the idea of tuition you pay to yourself and just treat the gradstudents like low level employees with Thier stipend as is? Just seem like red tape retardation.
>Well they're students but also employees but let's waive their tuition by paying their tuition ourselves

>>9284063
Not all grad students are funded

>>9284064
Yeah so make them pay tuition. For the ones that are, why even bother with this mess?

>>9284064
And, in some cases, grad students who are funded are only on 9-month stipends.

>>9284069
Because you're suggesting legally separate classes of grad students which would be an administrative nightmare

>>9284069
So...pay someone 17K to compensate for taking classes, teaching, and their research. Then, ask them to pay that back for their tuition. Then tax everything on top of it. Sounds like an effective way to collapse higher STEM education in the US.

>>9284071
Yeah, it's not that hard. You have those that are on TAs RAs or GAs. They get paid stipends either by the university to teach or the grant to do research. If you're at school on government grants, then that pays the tuition and since that's income, that gets taxed appropriately. No funding? No stipend and you pay tuition don't get a gender studies degree.

>>9284072
No asshat, what you do as a gradstudents paid by the university or university professor grant, you are essentially an employee, the universities need to cut the shit and get rid of tuitions entirely for these cases.

>>9284081
Oh. I see. Universities get rid of tuition, still pay the same poverty-level wage, said wage still gets taxed, and the student is still left at poverty level. MAGA is magic.

>>9284081
You're suggesting something that isn't going to legally fool anyone. That's still viewed as waiving tuition and thus income

>>9284090
Thank you. Posts like >>9284081 are how you can identify anons who have never been academics and thus have no idea what they're talking about. But it sounds good. Right. Right?

>>9284081
You do realize that students in STEM aren't always given a stipend either...right? Keep talking, anon, you really give perspective to the non-academic perception of academia.

>>9284090
It's only viewed as income because they still say
>This is money we give to you then you magically give it back to us without ever seeing it

Cutting the student shit and calling them employees (which face it, they are after the first year) gets rid of this ridiculous headache.

>>9284089
The taxes on that stipend income aren't ridiculous. Don't be a brainlet. I lived my five years at GT with a stipend at 21k and lived easy peasy.

>>9284093
If you are not good enough academically to earn an RA or TA spot or some external funding for stipend, you shouldn't be going to gradschool to begin with.

WHY THE FUCK IS THERE """TUITION""" IN THE FIRST PLACE. ALL WE DO IS RESEARCH

>>9284095
You're retarded. If you say "X group doesn't have to pay but Y group does" for the same service, that is not legally distinguishable from a tuition waiver

>>9284095
Hmmm....I guess you're under the impression that taxes on stipend income are different than taxes on other income. Yes, 21K...in Georgia. Take your 21K stipend somewhere with an above-Georgia cost of living. Good luck, anon. Might want to invest in hypertension meds to deal with all that ramen sodium.

>>9284098
See? We're basically employees.

>>9284100
Brackets nigga,
As a gradstudent with a stipend and taxes, I was making about as much money as a Walmart cashier. Which is fine since it's five years to fuck off and figure out what you're doing with your life while also publishing and patenting.

Stop being butthurt.

>>9284110
>it's five years to fuck off and figure out what you're doing with your life while also publishing and patenting.
Sounds like you used grad school as an excuse to "find yourself" while on someone else's dime. And there it is....butthurt. Why? Because I disagree with your perspective? That tells me all I need to know about you and your character.

>>9284099
If you're in a hard science or engineering PhD, you are either funded by the university (ta or professor) or the government or awards. There is no reason to go to gradschool without funding secured in one form or another. You are retarded if you're doing that. The only people complaining are those getting gender studies or afro history.

>>9284118
>If you're in a hard science or engineering PhD, you are either funded by the university (ta or professor) or the government or awards
Wrong

>>9284116
BASFs dime to be exact for my last three years, university for the first 2. Not really to find myself personally but academically, which is the point of gradschool. I never would have gone without funding secured prior. Which if you're in chemistry, you are paid from the get go and it's amazing how few know this.

>>9284125
Yep. Further confirming my suspicions.

>>9284120
Where do you go, devry? Or are you a comp sci cuck? Literally every bio, chem, physics, and engineering PhD at any major university pays it's students you shitbed.

>>9284128
>Literally every bio, chem, physics, and engineering PhD at any major university pays it's students you shitbed
Wrong.

>>9284126
It was a pretty sweet deal, either get paid to fart around and get a doctorate or sit and wallow in the 2008 economic collapse. Academia baby! The only thing that blew ass was the fact I still had to pay fees out of pocket.

>>9284131
Nice rebuttal there undergrad

>>9284134
Again, wrong. But keep trying.

Something of interest:
http://www.phdstipends.com/results

>>9284136
What are you (besides butt blasted) and where you going to be getting screwed so bad?

>>9284147
I'm a postdoc.

>>9284120
Why would you do a PhD if you don't get paid to do it? That's like an unpaid internship.

>>9284160
This
>>9284151
Oh my deepest condolences unless you're actively pursuing a professorship. Chemistry? Physics, what? Where'd you do gradschool.

>>9282283
There's a lot of truth in your post that pisses the math fags off.

>>9284177
These are the best.
More /sci/ related ones?

>>9284160
Because he's shit. No one wants to pay for him.

>>9284177
Really should have called him the chadstitician, or statistichad

>>9283491
>I think their tax rates are pretty comparable to, say, California.
Think again boi

https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-their-government-spending/

Unless you want high ass flat taxes we shouldn't follow the Scandinavian system. Especially taking into account the vast differences in population between those countries and the US.

>>9284182
I got chu senpai

>>9284353
God damn that's beautiful

>>9282514
Graduate tuition at Yale is $41,000. Assuming no other income that leaves a tax bill of $4731. In fact the increase in taxes would be more because the marginal rate would therefore be higher after accounting for graduate students' income in the form of stipends, fellowships, or TA salary.

>>9283517
So rich people can pay a lower percentage in taxes than the poor and the middle class?

>>9284001
Elaborate?

>>9282283
Einstein
Pauling
Watson/Crook
Maxwell
Newton
every other scientist worth a damn

none of them were engineers. they were pure scientists, pursuing research for research's sake.

god you've triggered me so fucking hard

>>9284353
>http://www.phdstipends.com/results
This is fucking amazing.

>>9282259
>buy $1000 flatscreen TV for 75% off on black friday
>government treats it as $750 of taxable income
wtf I love taxes now

>>9282241
the US is finally going full capitalist dystopia. it'll be the great depression all over again. I'm hyped.

>>9284485
I'm sorry, I don't follow...

You think Trump's tax plan makes a very significant impact on income inequality? I don't...

The eight or so brackets get consolidated into four, and the top tax rate stays exactly the same, but somehow the trajectory of income inequality becomes significantly worse than it already is? Explain. Are you talking about the corporate tax or something? Apple already evades almost all their taxes so that doesn't even affect them very much. Ditto for most tech giants.

Please explain desu

>>9282241

>>9282347
Is going into poverty to be amongst the best physicists/mathematicians in the world any more responsible than going into poverty attempting to be among the most famous rockstars in the world?

>>9284572
Elaborate.

>>9282903
>this board is for actual scientists, aka PhD

>>9282903
Get real, man. This board is mostly for shitposting and bantz.

>>9284585
Pursuing academics to be "among the best in your field" is somewhat of a risky and ambitious dream, and can therefore be considered a "poor life choice"

>>9284585
1. People in graduate school, or in academia make less money than people doing an industry job in technology or engineering. Even if you become a professor you still only make about $100k which programmers can attain at graduation. Even if you are as good at Terry Tao, you only make half a million dollars, less than a bad surgeon.
2. It is unrealistic to attempt to become one of the most famous rock stars in the world, and one would lose lots of money if you tried to do so.
3. There are very few positions in academia, and you will never make up the opportunity cost of a PhD. Furthermore, math is completely useless since engineers never use anything more advanced than calculus.
4. So it is stupid to try to become one of the best mathematicians in the world, just like it is stupid to try to become one of the best physicists in the world.

>>9284572
I agree with you, but the unfortunate truth is that grammar nazis are an evolutionarily created necessity in order to enforce systematization and coherence in language so that everyone can in fact understand each other. They should all die now that language is pretty well fixed and the internet ensures that local dialects won't evolve completely away from understandability, but evolution takes time. Patience, my friend.

>>9284608
I'm a freshman so it's probably mostly due to a knowledge gap, but I don't understand why most PhDs on this board seem to despise all "industry" opportunities. I'm under the impression that many private sector R&D jobs can function like an academic position. Eg. working on battery technology at Toyota, Tesla, Panasonic, etc. as a PhD in Physics, EE, Chem, Materials Sci/Eng, etc.

So, am I wrong in thinking that PhD positions in research fields like this would function much like an academic position at a Uni, and if I'm not, why is a functional distinction made between these sorts of positions and a position at a university and why do so many PhDs or PhDs-to-be vomit at the thought of such job-prospects?

>>9284454
I don't know anon, some certainly do, should they?

>earn $36k/year + tuition waiver to turn knobs in the lab all day
>live in comfy apartment and save over half of paycheck
>libshit in my year tries to convince me I'll be poor because of Trump
>mfw he admitted to spending $400/month on alcohol

>>9284619

Yes, some. And I assume (though I haven't looked very far into it) that most of the upper (39.6%) tax bracket members that (in actuality) pay less than the previously stated amount achieve a lower percentage via tax loopholes, yes?

So how did you come to the conclusion that a bill which neither increases nor decreases the upper tax bracket could be defined as "tax cuts for the rich"?

>>9284608
just a few years out of college and i already double the salary of the department head i sucked up to

doers do, others teach

>>9284629
$400? God damn. I hope some day he finds something meaningful enough to help himself survive this jaded, tragic, postmodernist world. I can see meme lab work being somewhat soul-crushing, but not fucking $400 of booze a month soul-crushing.

>>9282241
lmao

fucking mongrels deserve all of it

>>9284617
>Eg. working on battery technology at Toyota, Tesla, Panasonic, etc. as a PhD in Physics, EE, Chem, Materials Sci/Eng, etc.
It's not all sunshine and roses. Yeah you get paid a lot more.
But you don't own or even get direct personal credit for anything you develop.
If your project is not deemed profitable enough, it gets canned and put on a shelf never to see the light of day again. You wouldn't believe some of the amazing technology that remains half-finished at Sony or Qualcomm, because it won't make X billion dollars.
And I mean that literally. That was literally Qualcomm's benchmark: does the business department think it will make 10 billion dollars? (Yes, that's the exact figure.) No, it will only make 8 billion? Shelve that shit, on to the next project.

>the year 2017
>STILL falling for the university meme

>>9282398
>people pursuing PhDs by default are accomplishing things

this fucking level of delusion holy fuck

useless scholarship outweighs useful scholarship, and probably by 2 to 1 at this point.

wake the hell up

>>9284648
Yeah, but holding a position like this in industry wouldn't necessarily exclude you from working in academia in the future, would it, if it were cutting edge R&D?

>>9284648
>And I mean that literally. That was literally Qualcomm's benchmark: does the business department think it will make 10 billion dollars? (Yes, that's the exact figure.) No, it will only make 8 billion? Shelve that shit, on to the next project.
How is that a good business model? Why don't they do both...?

>>9282241
>tax cut bill
>raises taxes

>>9282283
>the economy

the economy isnt some abstract higher power you fucking autist

>>9282903
this desu. people who shit on education because they know they'll never have a stem phd are sad little creatures.

>>9284677
The tax cuts are for Mr. Gary Cohn and his associates at Goldman Sachs, not for you, dumb gentile.

>>9284648
Wanted to add this just in case I wasn't quite clear.
A project can be profitable, even to the tune of billions of dollars, but to a large corporation, if it's not profitable ENOUGH relative to their current wealth, it's not worth their time, no matter how groundbreaking it is, if corporate can't figure out how to market it to meet a specific demand.
So the exact same idea you developed, had you developed it in academia, you could have patented it, sold it, started a small business with it, etc. and walked away a multimillionaire. That same idea will instead go completely to waste because you developed it while you were working at Sony because even "hundreds of millions" means dick to them. Not to mention the academic glory (nobels etc) you miss out on.
You can safely make 6 figures in industry... but that's the tradeoff.

>>9284665
No, it wouldn't, in fact there's a lot of movement both to and from academia in the tech world.
Just look at the papers being published in top conferences, they quite often come from collaborations between schools and industry partners. These people are all networked.

>>9284675
I suspect it's because there's no real way to know exactly how much an investment will return. So they want to be absolutely certain they won't get hosed after they invest a billion into a production deal..

>>9284675
That's a good question with (probably) a very complex answer. Risk aversion, maybe? They want as many spare resources as possible if something doesn't sell as well as expected.

>implying there's any purpose in cutting taxes if total spending is not going to be brought down

>>9284630
You should read more news
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/10/03/the-trump-tax-cuts-would-be-the-most-insane-giveaway-to-the-rich-ever/

>>9284684
>right-wing populist enriches the rich at the common people's expense yet again
>it's the jews dude, we just need more right wingers to solve the problems they keep causing

>>9284691
Cut nominal tax rates while closing tax exemptions and loopholes such that total revenue doesn't decrease without an accompanying spending decrease.
It's easy and frees the market considerably, but it'll never happen because the ultra-wealthy making policy don't want a free market, or to give up that avenue for struggle against one another.

>>9284767
These idiots don't read the news

>>9284794
>>>/pol/

>>9284798
Go back? I just posted an opinion that runs completely contrary to all of the /pol/tards. They're retarded

>This either means that graduate students (many of which already live well below the poverty line) will need to pay thousands more per year in taxes
Hopefully this and they realise they need to leave academia. We have too many people going into academia, we have too many people going to college in general. What we need is people who do actual work, like dugging ditches, felling trees, repairing cars and so on instead of producing a string of useless papers that nobody will read.

>>9284813
Yeah, no mate. You're busted.

>>9284689
It's due to a lack of demand in the market. Some shit is so ahead of the game that know one even knows what it would be desired for or what to do with is.

Friend of mine worked at Monsanto for almost a decade in conducting polymers that you can release drugs at will via small voltage (essentially polymer actuators controlling pore size or other morphology). Worked really well, very repeatable, beautiful stuff but no one outside Monsanto believed it. It worked so well no one thought it was real and then his boss received a note from the CTO about this issue and all work was halted and the data and samples sit in some bunker of a storage facility.

My old advisor had a manuscript in prep but had a big ass note from Monsanto stamped on it saying it wasn't to be published until Monsanto gave the go ahead. That was in 1994.

>>9282400

This, those guys obviously aren't concerned about doing anything but tormenting scientists into submission.

>>9282283
>>9282292

Even after this we'll still get paid more than you do to shill on 4chan you dumb faggot

>>9284098

Yeah actually this is superb bullshit accounting. Not that universities and organizations do tons of this, but it's really stupid way to make graduate students as expensive to fund as a post-doc.

>tfw i have a fat fellowship and instate tuition rates so my taxable income only goes from 35k to 42k if my waivers are taxed

do people actually think graduate students are just fucking around and not being useful? dang murica

>>9284865

Just people who are triggered by logic and careful inductive reasoning.

>>9284865
It's a fairly pervasive myth in popular culture. The useless and lowly grad student taking 10 years to bumble through a PhD

>>9284884

Never once did I hear this where I grew up, which were a of lower middle class white suburb and the hood at separate times...

Maybe a myth among rich people?

>>9284814

Yes, Jim Bob knocking down the trees in John Q. Pubic's front yard will keep us at the forefront of technical innovation somehow. MAGA.

>>9284814
>>9284942

We choose climb trees in this decade, chop down limbs and do the the other things, not because they are easy but because they are hard.

>>9284884
Every stereotype has an origin

>>9284963
*not because they are hard, but because they are easy

>>9284767
>you should read more news
>links to opinion piece on the Washington Post

>>9284095
>with a stipend at 21k and lived easy peasy.
hell, I usually get money back when I do taxes

>>9284825
Cases like that are why the profit model of research funding is fundamentally flawed. If they'd published the work and let it be replicated by skeptics instead of sitting on it, we'd all be better off.

>>9284648
>It's not all sunshine and roses. Yeah you get paid a lot more.
And what about places like Google, which publicate most of their research results?

>>9285240
*publish

>>9285243
nice eggcorn, publicate to publish

>>9285240
>publicate