/sci/ - Science & Math

>>8457938

if you look in genetics studies youll find that the truth is somewhere in the middle. ofcourse there is variation between people across geographical space but there is no scientific way to divide these into non-arbitrary racial groups.

>>8457938

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=race+human+diversity+genetics&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5

this search will probably have studies you will want to look for, using an unbiased search

>>8457938

i dont think theres any genes that show a persons ethnicity. it wouldnt make sense.

>>8457938
they didn't tell you that, you're retarded. What they told you if you were in a STEM class is that race is an antiquated concept and that population genetics is more accurate and describes everything better

>>8457978
no, mate. It was my history class. My professor told me that white people made up race in order to justify slavery. She told me that when people brought up bone structures in skulls between blacks and whites that it wasn't true and it was just made up in order to justify racism

>>8457978
maybe he does gender studies

>>8457986
do u think that didn't happen ?

>>8457996
No, I know that happened, what i'm saying is that my teachers are denying just basic biology. they're denying that we do have different bone structures etc. I know people used this to justify racism, but that doesn't mean we have to deny such trivial facts.

>>8457938

i think alot of the time your sense of race atleast is defined by cultural matters.

>>8458005

your teacher sounds silly if she really thinks theres no race differences but technically the labels of races would have been made up. and different cultures might have different ways of classifying race.

>>8458016
I definitely acknowledge that labels are made up and there can be different ways of classifying them. I guess my problem is the denial that humans are different on a genetic level depending on whom they are.

>>8457986
Lol that's dumb. There's obviously a difference. How many black people do you see with deep-set eyes? Not that they can't have them. They just occur far less in their subset.

>>8458058
well just the fact that our skin color is different is proof we have genetic differences. They don't have to be a deal, but still.

>>8458071
I'm sorry but there's no point in answering your question because it's clear you don't understanding genetics at all. What you are describing are phenotypic differences between races, but phenotypic or morphological traits can literally be determined by as little as one allele or locus on the chromosome, amongst millions of other pieces of genetic information shared by all humans. What some people don't understand is that morphological (phenotypic) evolution is not actually correlated with genetic evolution. your lecturer was right, there is no genetic correlation with race what so ever. There is however population genetics which can show meaningful relations, but as the name suggests, a population is NOT an entire "race". Race is completely cultural.

Don't reply until you do some research yourself brainlet, this anon has kindly pointed you in the right direction
>>8457946

>>8458019
I think the thing is are you sure that you're not just misunderstanding what your teacher is saying? Why don't you ask your teacher about the higher genetic predisposition to sickle cell anaemia in West Africa? Or the high instance of lactose intolerance among Asians?

>>8458775
>morphological (phenotypic) evolution is not actually correlated with genetic evolution
You are dumb as shit. Look up the Siberian Fox experiment sometime.

Alsot the whole no genetic basis for race is sophistry. For ideological reasons there is no definition for race in humans. Of course you could define one. Saying it's an arbitrary division is a non-statement since all categories we think in are arbitrary and not actually found in nature. There's no label 'apple' on an apple by nature.

>>8457938
>I've recently seen on /his/ discussions on different genes that show a person's ethnicity. I vaguely remember seeing them labeled as one letter and then two numbers to specify.

Haplogroups. They are DNA genetic markers in the Y dna. Im not entirely sure what they are exactly because im not a biologist.

But in western Europeans, the R1b haplogroup is dominant.

>>8458805
you cant classify someones race from it though.

>>8458786

i looked up the fox experiment on wiki and even if what he said was wrong, i dont actually see what the experiment has to do with what he said at all.

the reason it is arbitrary is because genetic variation across geographical space is continuous so there is no way to draw a dividing line and theres no way to determine the size of any kind of meaningful group.

>>8457986
That was a """"""science""""" called Frenology. It is as scientific as palm reading and yet /pol/tards still use it to justify their fantasies.

>>8457938
Fuck off back to >>>/pol/

People have recently been claiming there is no such thing as race, yet the differences can be found within different races susceptibility to diseases, as well as through IQ testing.

Race differences are factual and demonstrable, refusing to accept this is the result of cultural Marxist ideology finding its way into the classroom.

>>8457946
This
However I would not really be so sure in saying that we have actually proven it, we have just not found a consistent true system of cagorizing the human species into races, at least not in the same level as our system of dogs.

>>8458831
>
the reason it is arbitrary is because genetic variation across geographical space is continuous so there is no way to draw a dividing line and theres no way to determine the size of any kind of meaningful group.

This is such bullshit man. Just because its continous, doesnt mean you can't classify it as distinct race.

Let me tell you, would you classify cows and humans as distinct species? Because they are also continuous. Only they are continuous across time instead of geography.

But there are some species, called ring species, which throw your argument into the trash.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

A ring species is where there is a geographical barrier, say a lake. A species sets up at a point along the perimeter. It migrates to another point and evolves into a distintinct type, but it can still produce viable offspring with its original neighbour. It keeps migrating along the perimeter, all the while able to reproduce with its adjacent neighbor. Eventually it reaches the starting point, but this time, it cannot reproduce with the original type at that point.

But each type can reproduce with its neighbour, so when does it become a new species? This is the same mechanism of time continuity, except its geographical.

So just because something is continuous does not mean it cant be divided.

If a majority of your genetic traits are european, that makes you european. If east asian, that makes you east asian. If you have large amounts of multiple types, it means your a mutt.

>>8458831
The fox experiment was to show how domesticating animals selected specific traits even in different species along with the "tame" trait.
>>8458786
You are a retard.
>>8458805
>I don't know what they are because I'm not a biologist
Differences in Mitochondrial DNA, it's only inherited from your mother. They are used to track human migrations.
>>8458846
>if majority of your traits are european you are european
>european traits came from other peoples
>europeans are mutts

>>8457986
What your professor is talking about is not biological races, he is talking about white people making claims that bone structure was directly related to intelligence. Which is wrong, brain size has no direct correlation with intelligence. Also, every fucking non-stem field are infuriated anti-white people. Get out of that shit or get used to it. I am myself southern european (non-white) and the non-stem field are victimizing us non-whites too much. Don't believe their shit.

>>8458852
Also forgot to say that along with Y dna the mDNA do not recombine. So it can only change through mutation. That allows you to believe that people with same mDNA or Y DNA came from a single ancestor(s)

>>8458846
>would you classify cows and humans as distinct species?

Sorry, a better example would be humans and Australopithecus

>>8458844

You can't separate genetic and environmental variance from between-group race IQ scores. No one has done it.

>>8458852
>Differences in Mitochondrial DNA
>Y dna
retard alert

>>8458865
>what is cladistics
>>8458844
>falling for the IQ meem
So you believe in horoscopes and MBTI too?

>>8458870
Yeah mDNA and Y DNA can be inherited from maternal and paternal lines respectively. Is that a hard concept for you?

>>8458867
You can, you get black kids adopted by middle class white families.

This doesnt entirely account for environment of course, but it does a pretty damn good job.

>>8458875
>everywhere in the world nobody is so triggered by race to the point of diving statistics between blacks, """"""caucasians"""""", azeens, mexicans
>only place with the exception of central africa with race wars
>still get flustered when people call bullshit
>try to rationalize racism by bending statistics and seeking validation in anonymous ""science"" boards
Good job americans

>>8458877
call your bullshit out*

>tfw too intelligent to believe race exists

>>8458877

You lack an argument to back up your ideology. Race exists and has been proven in this thread with already existing data that can be found with a simple google search, get over it.

>>8458877
>everywhere in the world nobody is so triggered by race to the point of diving statistics between blacks, """"""caucasians"""""", azeens, mexicans

What? Lol, the entire world is triggered by race, everywhere, always. Europe too.

Just look at the far right parties surging in every euro country

>>8458885
But it's all a race, anon. A rat race.

>>8458845

dude just look at some studies and theyll tell you about how it isnt possible because its continuous. there will always be discrepancies.

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?start=10&q=race+diversity+genetics+human&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5

>>8458846

i would say that continuity over space is different from continuity over time for this argument though.

yes i know that there is difficulty in classifying species but if youre being scientific, you shouldnt give arbitrary categories when they arent warranted in your field.

the idea of discrete non-mixing genetic populations over space works well for dividing humans from other species.

maybe classifcations shouldnt be absolute but depend on the context of what youre looking at and looking at the context of population genetics in humans then genetically there isnt a good or useful way of making discrete human classifications. again im not saying there arent differences between humans across the globe. and you misunderstand if im saying dont call people black or white or asian because thats not what im saying and i do that all the time.

>>8458846

also your idea of "most european genetics = european" is a terrible way of classifying someone and just brings up the same problems that i talk about in the beginning.

>>8458875

it really really doesnt. we have a poor understanding of environmental factors and family isnt the only one.

yes those do studies show that IQ is modifiable by the environment but they dont deduce at all the amount of genetic variation compared to environmental. it acts as an experiment. it only shows whether environment is a factor in IQ. its not the same as a study that tells you variance in racial differences. in fact those family studies dont necessarily tell you about between-group differences in IQ at all.

>>8457938
>>>/pol/

>>8458896
>proved
>in this thread
>posts on 4chan
>proving anything
enjoy getting shot
>>8458904
Nobody cares about neckbeards. Not even in their nations, they are all jokes.

>>8458904
>entire world is triggered by race
0/10
only you SJWtards are triggered and scared to offend black people by stating how nature treated different races unfairly through evolution because you think black people should be held on a pedestal. All other races hate you and their plague on this planet.

>>8458775
You say he has no understanding of genetics while you try to argue there is no relation between phenotype and genotype.

>>8459338

Dude, "natural selection provides a useful explanation for the origin of species but does not provide the slightest explanation for the emergence of any particular phenotype"

>>8458835
>I don't know shit about what's going on /pol/ but it must be bad and racist.

>>8459356
are we talking about natural selection?

>>8459357
he's right, /pol/acks have used phrenology as arguments on /sci/ quite a few times. And yes, it's retarded and discredited. Only defend your brethren when there is merit to their claims. It's not like /pol/ is known for making rational scientific arguments anyway, so I don't know why you would assume the guy you quoted is wrong.

But race is by definition biological taxonomy based on ancestry so race by it's very nature is a means to heuristically describe genetic differences between peoples.

>>8457938
Because there isn't. There is obviously genetic variation in humans but it's minuscule and it couldn't be used to accurately identify supposed racial divisions. It can be used to create systems for classifying people, but they wouldn't be in 3-4 vague groups. We also have very little genetic variation compared to other species, which makes it a lot harder.

>>8458924
What about punctuated equilibrium?

>>8457938
They dont say that at your university, OP.

>>8457938
>>8457946
>>8457947
>>8457969
>>8457986
>>8457988
>>8458008
>>8458019
>>8458058
>>8458775
>>8458784
>>8458805
>>8458831
>>8458835
>>8458845
>>8458852
>>8458863
>>8458865
>>8458875
>>8458885
>>8458896
>>8458924
>>8458927
>>8458943
>>8459014
>>8459338
>>8459356
>>8459357
>>8461170
Ops thread is a thinly veiled /pol/ attempt of getting people to spoon-feed scientific proof to support racist views because he can't stand the thought of being as equal as people of different phenotypes and cultures.

Sage goes in all fields.

>>8461185
>>>/leftypol/

>>8457938
This is a dreadful thread OP.
Even the people who are claiming there is a genetic basis for race accept that the vast majority of people are a melting pot of multiple races. The fact that they don't understand that this was always the case throughout every point in biological history for every species and there was never a 'purely monoracial group' shows a lot.

The base assumption in the position that races are genetically distinct is that all races were initially clonal (I use this term because I don't know how else to express it, and I am a microbiologist) with no influence from other races and they diversified from there. This is obvious nonsense. Populations do not evolve in isolation as a general rule.

/pol/ goes in all fields.

>>8461169

what about it?

>>8457938
look up the work of robert plomin and fuck off

>>8461310
good point. that probably hits the nail in the head to an extent.

>>8461619
I dunno just forget about it.

Fuck off back to >>>/pol/

>>8461310

It is really interesting to look at where things do stay multi-generationally pure for long stretches of time due to isolation. North Korea and studies in genetics there are a really cool case study, but sadly it is hard to get english translated papers on the subject.

>>8461707

go up to near the sawtooth range in idaho. some good subjects for your studies there.

>>8457938
Yeah race is genetic, no "science" will not acknowledge this anytime in the near future. Anything associated with "racism" prompts an immediate knee jerk reaction of opposition

>>8461185
/Thread

>>8458835
This is the stupidest post in this thread because this faggot confused biological anthropology and craniometrics with phrenology. Mate, when people were measuring the skulls of different races like Samuel Morton was in the early 1900s, there was already a consensus among ANTHROPOLOGISTS and people doing craniometrics that phrenology was bullshit. You're an idiot, lefty.

>>8457938
are black people born in england not proof enough
>no racism intended
>not enough sun to get a tan here
>skin colour comes from genetics
>prof is a dick

>>8457938
>Hey /sci/, In my university my professors have been telling me that there is no biological difference in races and that it's a cultural difference.

Learn new culture.

Skin changes color.

Get new diseases.

>>8461074
Which is not possible to be done rigorously for humans at this point. And there isnt even any need for it from a meritocratic point of view, because its enough to judge people just for themselves, and not for the people that happen to have the same phenotypes.

The only thing in that way that makes sense to do is differentiate between different cultures, which can make judging people more efficient. However considering this, we are back at square one in that its absolutely not scientific and completely culturally defined.

>>8461192
>I like /pol/ shitting up the science board with their popsci understanding of things

>>8463139
>Move to a different place
>Skin changes color
>Get new diseases
Whats your point? Thats literally true.

>>8461839
>there was a consensus among phrenologists that phrenology was bullshit
Top kek.
>Since the bible indicated that Noah's Ark had washed up on Mount Ararat, only a thousand years ago before this, Morton claimed that Noah's sons could not possibly account for every race on earth. According to Mortons theory of polygenesis, races have been separate since the start.
biological """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""antropology""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" was a meme subject that before the 50s when people realized it was crap dealed only with useless racial classification and american butthurt about nigros.
>but the people on that age had a consensus
So did everyone believed that old cloths and grain spawned mice. You are a retard. I suggest post natal abortion.

fuck off to /pol/and

>>8457938
Lactose tolerance
Drug tolerance (varied)
Melanin production
HIV resistance
Lung capacity and metabolic efficiency, Nigeria
Sickle Cell

This doesn't justify the stupid shit /pol/ is probably saying in this thread, I'm not even gonna bother looking cause it's gonna make me sad.

>>8461989
Different skin colors are not proof for the existance of different races, mate. Where would you even draw the line between what skin color means which race? Or is everybody (since no two people have exactly the same skin color)a different race? Then the word becomes meaningless...

>>8464304
ABLOOO BLOOO mDNA and Y DNA PRETTY CHARTS I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE CLEARLY EVERYONE IS WORSE THAN MY [FAVORITE RACE] WHAT YOU CAN'T STAND DIFERENT OPINIONS
>>8461989
Sparrows have varrying colors from town to town, so do animals that live near the coast in sand-ish soil in relation to their hinterland friends.

>>8457938
>my professors have been telling me that there is no biological difference in races
>This is obviously retarded

Congrats studying at a retard uni then. Since consequently your degree will be worthless then, you're not welcome to argue on /sci/.

sage and reported