/sci/ - Science & Math

>>8415315
>"Hurrr durrr, Asians countries only do well cause they just mindlessly memorize" BLOWN THE FUCK OUT!
Said nobody ever, the actual stereotype is that they cheat.

>>8415315
national averages in asian countries are based on a few top schools, in western its an actual average, so the top schools average grade is barely better than the average. Whites>everyone else. And jews are totally not trying to make a sub-intelligent genology so they can be smartest.

>>8415327
keep moving those goalposts, faggot

>>8415315
The asian IQ is just the top % university of that country

Hell, if we put the top % of USA, Russia and Hungary, it would BTFO everyone

>>8415315
>self reporting
into the trash it goes.

>>8415335
>>8415341
>All Asian countries are china

>>8415341
I mean't that the average score of the asian countries is very low, because they are just doing IQ test to the smartest ones

Meanwhile, if you make the top universities in the western world to do an IQ test, it would be at least 130+ and would fucking beat all asians compared to the 105 they have

tl;dr Asians are cherrypicking meanwhile everyone else is doing it normally

More "memorization is bad" PR bullshit that'll convince undergrads to fuck themselves in the ass.

>memorize less
Sure.
>do not rely on memorization at all
>who said they do not use memorization
No.

You learn the basic material thoroughly, and this limits what you have to memorize later on.

Remember your change of base formula and logarithmic identities from precalc? Great, you can avoid memorizing integral and derivative rules for b^x and log_b(x), since you can rewrite them with natural bases.
Remember what secant, tangent, and their cofunctions are in terms of sine and cosine? Great, you don't need to memorize the second and third Pythagorean Identities, as long as you know the first one.

Even then, you're better off if you -do- know the formulas, since you aren't rebuilding them every time they come up.

>>8415357
Memorization is bad though, you should just use your common sense for stuff like that.

>>8415365
Both examples still depend on memorization. Common sense just lets you cut it down to about a third of what it would otherwise be.

Students that buy into the "memorization is bad" meme don't memorize the basics in the first place.

>>8415387
remembering definitions is not memorization

>>8415392
So is the quadratic formula a "definition"? Because either way, you're wrong.

east asian defense force please go.

>>8415392
Neither the Change of Base formula nor the Pythagorean Identities are "definitions".

>>8415335
>>>/pol/

>>8415398
The quadratic formula is obviously not a definition. It's also far more important to be able to derive the quadratic formula than to memorise it.

>>8415401
The first one can be taken as a definition.

In any case, you only need a little bit of memorization.

>>8415398
>tfw I never memorized the quadratic formula
>graduated with honors in math

>>8415401
>Pythagorean Identities are "definitions".

You know the side of a right triangle are the sine and cosine. You should be able to derive the Pythagorean Identities from the definition of the 2-norm

>>8415315
>Macao, China

>>8415392
You won't get very far in math if you don't memorize definitions of concepts used in proofs. The difference lies between memorizing it like a retarded monkey learning vocabulary, versus learning by applying the concepts and developing an intuition for why they exist and what the idea behind them is, so when you are confronted with these concepts in future, the pieces just fall into place.

>>8415549

I like you. You're my kind of guy.

>self reported
>survey bias
>trusting chinks in the first place

Are you retarded?

How many anons (including op) actually looked over the study and original link with it?

http://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25920011&item=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.edweek.org%2Fv1%2Fblog%2F59%2F%3Fuuid%3D60454&cmp=RSS-FEED

>The PISA surveys gauged memorization use by asking students whether they agreed with statements such as, "When I study for a mathematics test, I learn as much as I can by heart."
>by asking

So they didn't actually "test" to see if they used said memorization strategies they just merely asked. I don't want say students are lying but there's a difference between personal opinion on one's application of subject matter and actual utilization of it.

Also in the PowerPoint presentation at the bottom of the page in the link below.

http://www.oecd.org/edu/ten-questions-for-mathematics-teachers-and-how-pisa-can-help-answer-them-9789264265387-en.htm

In slide 8 it's shown there is still a high prevalence in the use of memorization in east asian countries but they are at least more "balanced" in both memorization and alternative methods compared to western countries especially the UK.

Slide 16 also presents data of memorization but it is related to the "survey" in question that just asked students their opinion without any proof of testing. And there it does indeed show fewer east asian countries responded in use of memorization.

The rest of the slides just goes over use of alternative teaching, learning and motivation strategies having more success in student testing.

The ability to actually do math is of little use for most real world problems, even more so with stuff like wolfram alpha and Matlab. Mathematicians btfo.

t. Engineer

What is there even to memorize in school math? Like division tables? This study makes no sense.

>>8415315
>High Performing Countries
sooo... countries with the most cheating?

>>8415949

Rules and formulas involving Geometry, Algebra and Calculus for one.

The symbols related to Algebraic structures is another.

After that whatever methods teachers instilled in the students who can't intuitively figure in given math problems.

>>8415903
You're not an actual engineer.

>>8415903
Daily reminder that Software "Engineering" doesn't count.

>>8415392
That's exactly what it is.

>>8415981
I'm in a software engineering program and we learn a decent amount of math, about the same as EEs + discrete math and C/O stuff

Also, if you want to be anything more than a monkey copy+pasting from stackoverflow, mathematics is essential..

>>8415949
For this problem, you turn this crank.
For that problem, you turn that crank.
If the problem looks unfamiliar, you're fucked.

>>8415315

Who the FUCK memorizes the equations when most of which you can derive in a hot minute?

>>8416253
There's a bunch of equations that I can just spit out, because I use them frequently. But I can't remember how to derive them, since I don't have to.

It actually does bother me that I can't derive them, a little bit.

>>8416236
that limit doesn't go to infinity though, its undefined.

>>8416619
complex infinity

>>8415439
That doesn't respond to the point though. Anyone even mildly proficient in mathematics has memorized the quadratic formula. So the claim that proficient students don't memorize anything is nonsense. No one is completing the square every time they need to solve a quadratic.

>>8415981

Even Software Engineers know the importance of math. That guy is being a baiting faggot.

One major difference in the US at least is we teach everyone. EVERYONE.

>>8415315
>i - i = 1
lol wut?

>>8417282
>i^2 = -1

lol wut?

>>8415327
That is new stereotype actually.

Don't worry these two sterotypes are somehow living in harmony

>asians are brainwashed and can't think creatively because they memorize everything
>asians don't memorize anything they cheat

>>8415964
>>8415354

>ITT US literal brainlet
The day you're allowed to study in Singapore or in top Korea/Japan schools you'll be allowed to speculate

>>8416771
>what is japan
>what is South Korea
Kys

>>8416771

USA fag here. Are you fucking retarded?

>>8415327
Only the chinks cheat. Koreans/Japs generally don't.
Because schooling/testing in China is still corrupt to the point where if you don't cheat you're handicapping yourself.

>People in my high school would memorize the pythagorean theorem and the "distance formula" between two points in [math] \mathbb{R}^2 [/math] as two separate things
Fucking KEK

>>8417759
The ones that really make me pop a vein are the people that memorize multiple arrangements of the same formula.

It's particularly bad in econ/finance classes I find, people will be given
p = ax
or some shit and they'll also memorize
a = p/x
and x = p/a

>>8417763
This....this can't be true. What the fuck? Also:
>Completely, entirely dependent on a calculator, even for the most basic of shit like single digit multiplication

I don't think people realize just how fucking TERRIBLE most of my fellow Americans are at math. How does this happen after FOUR YEARS of nothing but babby algebra for math in high school (assuming no AP calc)? I'm honestly confused.

>>8415354
>Meanwhile, if you make the top universities in the western world to do an IQ test, it would be at least 130+ and would fucking beat all asians compared to the 105 they have
this has actually been done.
AFAIK -
Average for all college graduates is ~115

Average for All STEM Majors all float above ~125

Average for all Ph.D's and MD's also floats around ~125

Top 12/tier 1's hit 140 or thereabouts.

I can't find reliable data for Asian schools, but I would think it's similar.

I paritally justify this by looking at attainment rates, which pretty clearly show that Korea and Japan lead the pack, which would point to the mean IQ of college graduates being much closer to the mean of the Nation as a whole. as Asian countries generally score slightly higher Mean IQ's, I would ballpark that Asian and US universities are pretty much on-par in terms of average intelligence of attendees.

>>8417769
>How does this happen

"Progressive" (read regressive) American education "reformers" (or rather demolitionists) getting their way for a hundred years.

>>8417757
No, they're all the same insane emphasis on entrance exams.

>>8417757
Koreans force their kids to study 20 hours a day.

>US students get better grades than euro's
>muh grade inflation, muh watered down material
>Asian students get better grades than euro's
>SUCH INTELLIGENCE, TRULY MASTER RACE

lol, get the fuck outta here.

>>8418390

Except the Chinese are dirty, lazy liars. Koreans have integrity.

>>8418811

This guy gets it. If I wasn't up at 2 AM studying, my mom comes in with the wooden spoon.

>>8418816

You know Euros got a hardon for the US, they just hate admitting it and try to hide it behind abuse.

>>8418990
Is this my gay wet dream fantasy: the game? Where can I buy it?

>>8417763
I used to do this back in high school because I didn't understand how formulas worked. Once someone showed me how to rearrange formulas I was blown away and got good at math.

>>8419009

I think it's just FIFA 16. Seems like that's where all the gifs like that one comes from.

>>8417282
It's a photoshopped image.
>>8416771
Every country tries to teach their own youth.

>>8418390
>>8418811
Indian here, can attest.

Makes sense considering they give almost no homework here in Japan.

They have the motivation of studying for entrance exams (yes, including high school entrance exams) here, though. This is what a entrance exam for a top high school here is, for example:
https://school.js88.com/scl_h/22018140/kakoq?kakomon_id=27438&img_type=1&page=1
https://school.js88.com/scl_h/22018140/kakoq?kakomon_id=27438&img_type=1&page=2
https://school.js88.com/scl_h/22018140/kakoq?kakomon_id=27438&img_type=1&page=3
https://school.js88.com/scl_h/22018140/kakoq?kakomon_id=27438&img_type=1&page=4
https://school.js88.com/scl_h/22018140/kakoq?kakomon_id=27438&img_type=1&page=5
https://school.js88.com/scl_h/22018140/kakoq?kakomon_id=27438&img_type=1&page=6

>>8415315

> expecting UNION GOVERNMENT WORKERS to be good at there jobs

I could have told you this shit when I was in middle school. Fuck. Feels real bad.

>>8415339
keep using that faggot strawman.

>>8419220
Did not know that someone from Japan lurked /sci/.

>>8415315
Big surprise

At least the new SAT isn't based on memorize anymore

>>8415327
>Asians managed to cheat on SATs, international tests and their local tests

>>8415335
PISA is conducted by a non partisan group with randomly selected schools.

>>8415354
Except any statistician worth his salt would take a representative sample. I'd like to see your citation for this study where countries pick their own testers because all the IQ tests I know use representative samples.

>>8418816
>grades
>standardized exams

merikan education everybody

>>8419373
This.

I tutored act/sat prep for a company a while back and I strongly encouraged my clients to memorize as little as possible.

Also, most of them used graphing calculators and I helped them break free of that meme.

>>8415339
Wait people are actually denying reality?

>http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/how-sophisticated-test-scams-from-china-are-making-their-way-into-the-us/474474/
>http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/exam-cheating-now-a-criminal-offence-in-china-as-students-face-up-to-7-years-imprisonment-confirms-a7072371.html
>http://time.com/4360968/china-gaokao-examination-university-entrance-cheating-jail-prison/
>http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-cheating-iowa/
>but muh high iq race

>>8419952

>China
>China
>China
>China

We just went over this. China does not represent the entirety of the Asian population and China encourages cheating, whereas Korea and Japan, it is severely punished. Typical Chinese crooks.

>>8419529
The foreigners who come to American universities absolutely cheat.

>>8420395

Citation needed.

>>8420421
not him. more than one has asked me for old tests and homework solutions knowing full well the professor's recycle material.

>but where's da ebidense
fuck off. why would i record myself in that situation.

>>8420395
One person from my uni was a Chinese international student who got expelled for cheating (she made fake IDs or something so that someone else could write the exam)

>>8420436

So you have your limited sample size and you claim that to be sufficient evidence to prove Asians cheat. Okay, in that case, since white people have asked me for old tests and homework, that must mean white people cheat too. I mean the logic is infallible.

>>8415315
math isn't something you memorize
what would you even memorize? formulas?
now learning languages, specifically vocabulary, is a great example of something where memorizing+practice is effective.
Math is about understanding the concept behind it, and being able to think about programs in a mathematical way. Trying to teach that with memorizations is rather prone to failure

>>8420436
>more than one has asked me for old tests and homework solutions knowing full well the professor's recycle material.

>he thinks this is cheating

lol

>>8415315

This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Also of note is that Finland performs on par with Asian nations, and the Finnish are a non-Indoeuropean population with noticeable "non-Caucasian" physical attributes.

Cold adapted peoples have greater mental flexibility and "true intelligence". Hot adapted peoples have lower "actual intelligence", but good memorization skills, and good "confidence" skills (IE being confident in a knowledge system without questioning it).

These "confidence" skills can be useful for jumpstarting the process of acquiring knowledge, because they eliminate the anxiety associated with intellectual overstimulation. However, they fail when topics become more advanced.

Europeans have, to differing extents, a substratum of dolichocephalic "hot adapted" peoples, who probably originated around the Middle East area. This substratum is strongest in the British and "nordic" races, who have long heads akin to those of Mideastern, Indian, and African descent.

Mainland Europeans are notably different in this regard; they are brachycephalic, (more Asian-like), and they hold the distinction of developing all the more advanced knowledge we have. The British were good at developing things that were discretely classifiable.

>>8420943

After the initial development of basic systems by the dolichocephalic Romans and Brits, the more brachycephalized Europeans (Germans, Swiss, Northern Italians, etc.) took over the powerhouse.

Even within the British Isles, the more brachycephalic populations of England are far more accomplished and prosperous than the dolichocephalic populations of Scotland and Ireland.

Brachycephaly is indicative of the "youth brain", and dolichocephaly is indicative of the "old brain".

>>8415327
The "actual stereotype" is simply that they study a lot, not memorize a lot. It actually kinda agrees with the article; Americans study through memorization, but the better way is to try to actually understand it through intuition. That's how you get an actual mastery of material, and keep it.

>>8416653
>Anyone even mildly proficient in mathematics has memorized the quadratic formula
I was fast enough with doing it by hand and it seemed more natural to me. And i was certainly proficient in math.
>>8415549
>The difference lies between memorizing it like a retarded monkey learning vocabulary, versus learning by applying the concepts and developing an intuition for why they exist and what the idea behind them is, so when you are confronted with these concepts in future, the pieces just fall into place.
this, so much, that's how we were thought like you would vocabulary, it's terrible and doesn't help people understand at all.

>>8420949
Get this shit phrenology off of muh berd REEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>8419220
>for a top high school
how many years have people studied usually before this "high school"?

>>8419808
>I tutored act/sat prep for a company a while back and I strongly encouraged my clients to memorize as little as possible.
>Also, most of them used graphing calculators and I helped them break free of that meme.
thanks, these are the kinds of teachers we need

>>8415365
YOU STILL NEED TO MEMORIZE THE BASICS. Memorizing the first Pythagorean identity is required for you to use any kind of "common sense". You can use common sense to extrapolate the second and third, but you kinda do need to know the first. Also, you should memorize the second and third, because it makes everything so much easier and faster, but that doesn't mean that anyone is telling you that you shouldn't/don't need to know how to find the second and third from the first. Both understanding that and memorizing the formulas is what constitutes a full understanding of what you're learning. I basically just re-explained his example but it was a good one.

>>8415392
OK first off, yes it is. I think what you mean by this is understanding definitions, but in the process of doing so you end up memorizing the definition whether or not you actively drill it into your head

>>8420958
Yes but what everyone is saying is that you still end up memorizing formulas pretty quickly when you use them after a while, or solve the problems in ways that ultimately bring you to said formula anyways

>>8415549
Yay someone who communicated what was in their head in a clear way

>>8421005
I just did quadratic expansion to convert from ax^2+bx+c -> p(x-q)^2+r
and went from there.

>>8420989
>Memorizing the first Pythagorean identity is required for you to use any kind of "common sense".

Do you know what the definition of sine and cosine are? The Pythagorean identity follows immediately, brainlet.

>>8420321
Keep moving those goalposts, faggot.

>>8421098

Well, you said Asian countries, not a specific Asian country. Technically, the goalposts haven't moved at all.

>>8421132
really makes you think....

>>8421134

Think about what?

>>8421142
existence

>>8421157
now this is a /sci/ discussion I can thoroughly enjoy

>>8416619
why is it undefined?
[math]
(x-8) \to 0
[/math]
when
[math]
x \to 8
[/math]
Thusly
[math]
1/(x-8) \to \infty \ when \ x \to 8
[/math]

>>8421161
t-thoroughly?

>>8421161

Nice, you answered for me and used a pic of my waifu. Thanks, friend!

>>8421170

As thorough as you wanna get.

>>8421164
oh nvm, just saw that the right limit and left limit are two seperated values.
The limit does not exist, i guess that is what undefined means.

Anime thread?

>>8415536
>tfw I don't memorize equations, because using them once or twice in a problem is good enough to remember them forever

Daily reminder that only brainlets memorize equations.

>>8420943
>Cold adapted peoples have greater mental flexibility and "true intelligence". Hot adapted peoples have lower "actual intelligence",

Back in the day, we call them white and black.

>>8420943
>Cold adapted peoples have greater mental flexibility and "true intelligence". Hot adapted peoples have lower "actual intelligence",

Back in the day, we would call them "white" and "black".

>>8420970
>how many years have people studied usually before this "high school"?

9 years
1-6: 小学
7-9: 中学
10-12: 高校

>>8421219
no!

shut up u faggots thinking that asians are less smart won't make u any less mediocre.

>>8421219
post more chen pls

>>8420421
Go to any UC. Asians are cheating out the asshole. One of my econ classes there was literally 15 asians sitting together during the final trading answers because layout of the room made it easy to disguise your movements.

>>8423464
>Asians
>really just chinks and plastic

>>8416064
>tfw monkey that copy pastes from stackoverflow
>title is senior java developer
>make 109k a year

lol

>>8423464

>Asians
>really just 15 of the Chinese variety

China cheats at everything. I'm not surprised.

>>8420620
The claim was that foreign Asians who come to America cheat, Wong. You don't need empirical data to prove that.

>>8423688

So why make the claim if it's heavily biased? Sounds like you have some personal gripe you need to work out since it's clear that it's clouded your judgment. Stop being stupid and irrational.

>Wong

Funny, considering my last name is not Asian at all.

Seriously, in the US, education is pretty "artificial" if that's the right word. The system doesn't favor you to learn anything, it favors those who memorize. I've gotten pretty good grades before not even understanding what I'm looking at just because I memorized the rules and took how it works for granted. It really isn't difficult per se, just how well your brain can memorize.
When I actually started to try to understand how the math actually works, my grades go into the toilet. Time I would have normally spent just memorizing crap was spent in making up for sub par teaching. As long as you have good memory it's not hard to get a good grade in the American schooling system, and this is highlighted specifically in math. You just barely need to understand what's going on. Just, "NOW YOU KNOW HOW TO DO A THING, HOMEWORK! WE ARE SO SERIOUS ABOUT EDUCATION"... It all feels like busy work. The homework exists half the time just to exist. The best way to learn is by your own accord. Of course, that doesn't satisfy businesses like colleges. I don't need to be 10 years in debt to learn something PUBLICLY AVAILABLE on the internet and libraries for free. But I'll have to because I'll need a sheet of paper stamped by insert company here to get a stable job.
They don't care about you actually learning anything.
>But Mrs.Teacher, can we get a real world example?
>Shut up, Billy. Did you read pages 250-275 yet? Did you even do your homework? How pathetic.
>Mrs.Teacher, I have a question!
>Meet me during break.
*Goes during break*
>Read pages 250-275. I honestly don't care or know what you want to do. Leave.
*Next Day*
>If you have any questions, feel free to see me during break.
Crud teachers + favoring laziness = bad at math
Then we get stuff like History where it's entirely memorization. It's excusable however, because people genuinely interested can easily get into what they want on their own without as much of a barrier as math does.

>>8423906

I never had that experience and I'm sorry that was your experience. Mine went like this:

*teacher lectures on a topic*
>I don't get it
>Okay, let's try to take a different approach or look at this differently.
*student understands*
>If you have anymore questions I have office hours and I am always available by email until some god awful time at night.
*email professor at 10 PM*
*get a response 15 min later*

>>8423906
You sound butthurt that you couldn't understand calculus 1 and your teacher didn't put up with your autism. All you need to do is read the ducking material and understand it. You don't need "real world examples".

Good find OP.
I'm a white dude from the states. Why would anyone be butthurt about this

>>8415903
>Mathematicians btfo

See it every fucking day. Fags blow through 3 reams of paper trying to do something you can bang out in Mathematica in like 10 mins.

>>8417757
>Only the chinks cheat.
And the Rajits, and the Malay, and the Indonesians.

>>8423945
I didn't even take Calculus 1 to be butt hurt about it; I'm not in college yet :V And yeah, you don't need real world examples, but for me I want to see how it works practically. Something like how it could be used in encryption or calculating physics, which half the time it's real easy to pull at least one real world example.
It's not autism if you realize how unoriginal the same crap about "Person 1 going to the store getting candy' shoe horned into a formula where I can poop out a better question on the spot.
Also, I didn't have a problem with my PreCalculus teacher at all, so it's not like I'm pinning the blame on the teacher. If anything I'm referring to the garbage I went through around middle school. I've been to plenty of schools thanks to having crap parents, I know the difference between a good and bad teacher.
But of course, stay hostile 4chan.

>>8423941
That's almost unreal for me. Maybe I had crap luck, but a lot of my teachers don't give a fraction of a turd as long as they don't get fired.

>>8424047
>but for me I want to see how it works practically. Something like how it could be used in encryption or calculating physics

The problem is you need a lot of domain knowledge to even understand the applications

>>8424047
computational math is just like that

it doesn't matter whether you teach applications in physics or crypto, either way a retarded monkey or an engineer can do it by blindly memorizing everything

the only time where memorizing things stops working is if you're doing autistic math

and basically nothing below difEq or calc 3 has any interesting applications besides
>hurr durr a particles position is x(t) find it's acceleration
>find the angle between the plane and the ground
All the simple examples are basic algebra that shouldn't be taught in math class and all the useful/realistic examples aren't going to be taught in high school and definitely not to that kid planning on majoring in gender studies that has to take precalc/physics to graduate

>>8424130
>physics
>>>/x/

>>8417757
>>8423464
>>8423605
>Boohoohoo, i cant use cheat codes...

>>8415315
>fewer students in East Asian countries reported
>Asians
>reported
kekekekekeke

>>8420943
>>8420949
this is very interesting, where can I learn more?

>>8425762

Your outdated 1790s Phrenology textbook by Franz Joseph Gall.

>>8425639
t. butthurt Zhao

>>8421862
>>8420970
Wrong. It's an entrance exam for entering a high school (高校, this specific school is called 灘高校), which means they take this exam when they're 15.

>>8424227
This problem is more psychological that having to do with actual math from my view.
The way people 'memorized' for centuries was through song and verse. It's not new. There's memorization techniques that use stories, that's why word problems exist, to show that math is a language of problems.

I think we should be teaching math more like a language than a discipline. It's because the emotions aren't involved that students 'hate math' because they psychologically can't see how this will get them laid.
This is why you stuffy nerdy types like it, you just want to fix shit in the first place. A gender studies person was gotten to by the people who appealed to their emotions first, they knew how to woo them thanks to psychological research

>>8415315
>teaching imaginary numbers to kids
is this real life?

>>8426235
And high schools are 3 years, middle schools are 3 years, and elementary schools are 6 years. So 3+6 = 9 years of study before high school.

>>8415516
How is the change of base formula a definition?

>>8426913
Sorry, thought you wrote something else.

>>8421862
>小学 - small learning
>中学 - middle learning
>高校 - high school
>大学 - big learning

Damn illogical japs

>>8426920
A change of basis is changing the unit vectors to some other basis of vectors. To go from the new basis to the old one would just be the matrix P who columns are the new basis vector represented in the old basis. Then a change of basis for a matrix A is just P^-1 A P. This follows immediately from the definition.

>>8415315

That pic is triggering me

>>8428587
>correct way: [eqn]\left ( x+\frac{1-\sqrt{-3}}{2}y \right) \left(x+\frac{1+\sqrt{-3}}{2}y\right)[/eqn]

>>8415315
>Students from High Performing Countries Memorize Less

Funny, same is true of CS majors as well.

>can you stop giving us theory and just write pseudo code