[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/sci/ - Science & Math

View post   
File: 23 KB, 400x400, idunno.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8353902 No.8353902 [Reply] [Original]

If you were to react NaCl with H2SO4, do you get sodium bisulfate (NaHSO4) at room temperature or do you get sodium sulfate (Na2SO4)?

I can't seem to find much about the topic.
It makes more sense that the second hydrogen would be displaced under elevated temperature, but I'm not entirely sure.

>> No.8353904

>>8353902
pKa HCl -8
first pKa of H2SO4 -3
http://evans.rc.fas.harvard.edu/pdf/evans_pKa_table.pdf
chloride is a weaker base than bisulfate, so this wont work at all

>> No.8353905

>>8353904
actually I take that back, under some conditions you can make HCl from NaCl and H2SO4

>> No.8353907

>>8353905
yeah, dry sulfuric acid and dry NaCl could work

>> No.8353913

well it definitely does make HCl because this method can be used to produce, for example, (R,S)-a-phenethylamine hydrochloride because of the reaction between NaCl and H2SO4 if connected to a gas washing flask which is subsequently connected to the phenethylamine solution flask

im just looking to find out whether or not the reaction is producing sodium bisulfate or sodium sulfate as the other byproduct at room temperature because i keep coming across mixed opinions

>> No.8353915

>>8353913
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_kZe73QC5o
here is a video proving that it does make HCl, just not an efficient way to do it
either way, sodium sulfate or sodium bisulfate?

>> No.8353918

>>8353915
depends on how much acid you add
it's called "bisulfate" for a reason

>> No.8353920

>>8353918
okay lets say 10mL of 18M H2SO4 added to 10g of NaCl
bisulfate?

>> No.8353923

>>8353918
the main issue of confliction is people saying that bisulfate is formed at rt as opposed to sulfate at elevated temperatures

>> No.8353973

>>8353920
implying reaction goes fully, bisulfate

>> No.8353975

>>8353920
>>8353973
hold on, I'm not so sure though, let me do some calculations

>> No.8353986

>>8353975
okay, I'm not sure if ioinic equilibriums work in such concentrated conditions, but it seems to me that formation of bisulfate from sulfate is very likely
equlibrium constant is 10^5

>> No.8353990

>>8353986
i found this thread online:
http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/5048/hcl-synthesis-from-sulfuric-acid-and-sodium-salt
so it appears that the formation of the sulfate is primarily based on heating at elevated temperatures like i had previously assumed
i appreciate the help! your reply also heaps to confirm this

>> No.8353995
File: 69 KB, 250x200, anime-girls-books.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8353995

>>8353990

>> No.8354069

>>8353913
>phenethylamine
Yeah ok Walter

>>8353902
>I can't seem to find much about the topic.
https://erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/hclgas.argox.html
Here
>It makes more sense that the second hydrogen would be displaced under elevated temperature, but I'm not entirely sure.
It's an equilibrium process driven by HCl evolution. But bisulfite is a weak acid (pKa 6.97) and there's a sizeable energy barrier you overcome by heat.
Treating calcium chloride with h2so4 and using it to dessicate aqueous hcl both give good results
http://curlyarrow.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-make-dry-hcl-gas.html

>> No.8354172
File: 979 KB, 1290x616, 1474093934949.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8354172

I use this exact reaction to make HCl gas. Be careful OP, do it dropwise and have the gases bubble through a base solution or something

>> No.8354609

>>8354172
This.
Be sure to do it outside or in a fume hood, since it can really mess up your chamber

>> No.8355224

>>8354069
>>8354172
>>8354609
appreciate the responses
thanks guys!
makes sense to me now