/sci/ - Science & Math

>>8209006
Cos I'm sure you have complete interest in helping people who have huge problems in their lives, and are not at all posting this just to seek attention.

>>8209006
http://ssristories.org/category/cause-of-death/suicide/

It's BS.

>>8209006
Yep. Among the worst nonsense humans have ever been engineered into. Right up there with religion, because faith in the notion of mental illness is a form of religious thought. It's faith supported dogma.

Wake me up when it's over or we're all dead.

My life became so incredibly much better after getting ADHD meds. Sure feeling oppressed.

>>8209136
>I'm on amphetamine daily
>MY LIFE FEELS SO MUCH BETTER LIKE I'M SO SOCIAL AND FEEL SO MOTIVATED AND SO UPBEAT AND MY FOCUS IS SOLID. MOTHERFUCKER I CAN DO ANYTHING, I'M MYSELF BUT BETTER[...]
lol

>>8209139
Based. And true, also.

>>8209141
The point is that more or less everyone feels that way on amphetamine. You're only anchoring onto it because your baseline functionality is otherwise subpar, whether from psychogenic factors, or from an underlying mechanical problem you should be addressing instead of brute forcing your brain to dump dopamine out everywhere on a daily basis.

You may reason you're just intrinsically faulty, but have no real evidence to back this.

Look into food allergies and diet in general. Histamine etc might be your problem.

>>8209139
>>8209141

So what? I don't care if you think ADHD is real or not, but does the fact that I don't hate myself and that I manage to function in society not merit using stims?

>>8209153
>but does the fact that I don't hate myself and that I manage to function in society not merit using stims?
It's your call honestly. I take issue with you claiming that as proof that you have/had some illness though as amphetamine makes -humans- feel good and get shit done, period, much as benzodiazepines tend to relax humans and whatnot. I also take issue with schools forcing them on young children to boost their test scores because it means they get more funding, and psychiatrists for enabling this shitty and retarded behavior.

>>8209146
>your baseline functionality is otherwise subpar, whether from psychogenic factors, or from an underlying mechanical problem

That's just a complicated way of saying "Mental illness"

You're not contributing anything by calling something by another name.

Are you a biologist by chance?

>>8209153
You can do whatever you want, as far as I'm concerned. Just don't make claims like "muh vague chemical imbalance of unknown nature and unknown origin" and "muh AD(H)D and associated ideas are a real and mechanical term, some people are just born broken :(" or other such bullshit. Take your meds if you're satisfied with a medicated life, this thread seems mainly targeted at people who hold delusional beliefs about the degree of knowledge about the brain and its relevant feedback loops. The very nature of the mental illness philosophy that masquerades as science. Calling it philosophy is degrading to philosophy, functionally it's just plain pseudoscience pushed by charlatans with a few bits of data hacked in that by no means support their lofty conclusions.

The field is more damaging than anything else, and slowly people are realizing and getting sick of this fucked up joke that's at best a front for the pharmaceutical industry.

>>8209006
Yes, its very likely.

>>8209160
>That's just a complicated way of saying "Mental illness"
No. The term "mental illness" has too much associated baggage and must be abandoned. It also brings out the worst and most tribal behaviors of the human species. Just frame something different than you as crazy and you're good to go.

Madness is real. Brain diseases and hormonal disorders are real. "Mental illness" is a bad analogy taken literally in forming policy.

>>8209167
like I said, you literally think that changing a label will solve the underlying problem.

I hate to throw this term around, but you sound like a god damned SJW

>>8209160
No, being shit relative to other members of your species isn't an illness, it's just called being shit.

>>8209173
If I literally thought it was all about the label I wouldn't have typed out the rest of my post, you compartmentalizing fool. It's a component of the overall deal.

I'll back in a moment.

>>8209177
call it what ever the fuck you want, friend.

Won't change shit.

>>8209146
Dopamine has a well-described inverted-U function with performance. Individuals with hypofunction will benefit while others will not.

>Look into food allergies and diet in general. Histamine etc might be your problem.
What data is there to back up any of this? You're reeking of quackery.

This is a very opinionated thread.

Op, use your common sense. Yes, doctors like to throw pills at people, but we do give people with defective minds a better quality of life through therapy and medications.

>>8209180

your approach in a nutshell:

>call the problem something different

>find alternative therapies

btw you know what they call alternative therapies that are proven to work?

therapy.

>>8209161

ADHD is simply inability to focus, thus having significant difficulties compared to the rest of the population. My diagnosis says nothing about the realness of ADHD, it just says I score significantly worse on most metrics such as memory and focus.

Are you going to provide some peer reviewed recent papers showing that ADHD isn't real? Keep in mind that showing that people wrongly diagnosed with ADHD does not say anything about the realness of ADHD.

You do understand why I feel strongly about this? For me being on stims is like wearing glasses, and I don't want people like me who have pretty much given up on life to be persuaded to not seek the sort of help that can completely turn their lives around.

>>8209182
this.

>>8209006
things can be stupid and stupidity can actively be promoted for purely malicious reasons without it being a conspiracy, you know.

>>8209182
No, it isn't that simple. Else you wouldn't have individual's doing meth, or buying dextroampetamine with the intent to use it for a given task, and doing so successfully. Your assumption here is that ADHD individuals are pushed into the ideal range of the U curve with medication in an absolute sense, to become "normal", when that very likely isn't entirely the case. It's not even a matter of over or undershooting, it's just that such a simple heuristic cannot be blanket applied to all of the brain's systems in a given individual. Anecdotal experience makes this readily apparent.

Do some rudimentary research into histamine's function as a modulatory neurotransmitter. And until you do, and do so in depth, stow your dumb quackery accusations until actually have the means to legitimately evaluate.

Don't be stupid, don't be obnoxious, and don't be binary. Belief does not have to exist in only binary states, you choose to treat it that way because you're lazy.

>>8209190
>Find
>Implying these "alternatives" haven't been roughly known for centuries, and for some reason magically unlearned with modern pharmacological data
We've only unlearned how to make use of the obvious.

>>8209214
confirmed for tinfoil hat

>>8209192
>Are you going to provide some peer reviewed recent papers showing that ADHD isn't real?
I don't think your meds help you in the slightest, because no matter how much I say something, if it's too subtle it flies right by you.

Again, THE PRESENTATION OF ADHD, AND ITS SYMPTOM CLUSTERS, ARE REAL. THEY ARE REAL THINGS YOU CAN OBSERVE. THIS IS NOT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

The underlying mechanics, and unsubstantiated claims of the nature of the supposed incurable illness, are the problem. And they are always left wanting, yet taken on faith.

No better than Lawerence Krauss writing his garbage "Universe from Nothing" to push his personal philosophy as hard science.

ITT: t.Normies

>>8209215
Shoo then. Your life is your problem. Good luck, etc.

>>8209217

So, you figured out that the science of treating mental illness is imperfect and there are still things we don't know...

what do you want, a fucking medal?

People are doing the best they can with the tools they have. Being regressive and yelling conspiracy is just counterproductive and harmfull, and frankly, sir, you can go fuck yourself.

>>8209214
>anecdotal broscience from my personal experience with junkies that i guesstimate are normal
>I ain't gonna explain shit, ur stoopid cauz u cant prove me wrong ;^)

Yeah, that's what I thought. Fuck off, retard.

>>8209222
>People are doing the best they can with the tools they have.
They aren't. That's why I'm posting.

Era by era and we operate in a moronic way despite having the means to know better. I am among the small subset of people in a given era telling you you're being retarded, and ya ain't gonna ever listen. The dynamic is always the same, the pattern is always the same.

You can go fuck yourself too. Enjoy your medicated life devoid of meaningful progress, lifestyle change, or self understanding.

>>8209224
You obviously can't respond to the bulk of what I said.

Do yourself a favor and read a book. Do some thinking. Then come back and try to push back when you've actually got some ground to stand on.

>>8209006
>somehow pills are the solution

>patient has freak illness
>somehow pills are the solution

>patient has infection
>somehow pills are the solution

>patient is dying from poison
>somehow pills are the solution

MIND BLOWING ISNT IT?

>>8209227
>denial
>projection

Try harder, kiddo.

>>8209234
AAANNNNNNDDDDD WE SAY WE'RE IN LOOOOOOVVVVEEEE WITH ALL OF IT. AND WE SAY WE'RE IN LOVE EVERYTHING.

Aaaannnnnndddddd we lie... Love to lie.

>>8209226

>Era by era and we operate in a moronic way

>We've only unlearned how to make use of the obvious.

Listen you stupid mouth breather.

Either people did it better before, or they didn't. You keep changing your story because you like the way it sounds in your head.

You act like you're a fucking genius because you think you're the only one that's figured out that there are unsolved problems in the treatment of mental health.

I can almost smell the snake oil from here.

Lets take me for example i have severe depression and suicidal tendencies according to the good ol' NHS. I found steps outside of medication helped me quite a lot. Mainly as i didn't trust myself with medicine

>>8209245
>Either people did it better before, or they didn't.
More binary thought. There are such things as degrees of presence. It's not 0% or 100.

>You act like you're a fucking genius
"Let me make up a version of you and confuse it with the real thing because my logic has a lot of shitty spillover that I think is relevant."
"I see it this way, therefore, it is this way. You have three arms, I know it;s so because that's how it is for me! Deal with me throwing my dumb clutter everywhere!"
Lol. Nah, Anon.

>you think you're the only one that's figured out that there are unsolved problems in the treatment of mental health.
Plenty of people have unraveled their issues such that they were able to eliminate or counterbalance their real problems. Plenty of people get by not claiming they know more about an illness than they really do, but with certainty, most of them don't work in psychiatry.

Granted, while psychiatry nets out as worthless gutter trash that ought to be disassembled and rebuilt, their predicament is somewhat understandable. It's hard getting to know each patient individually. It's even harder to get them to make the slightest effort or bother with deep change in their lives. You've got very limited time. Limited mind. They show up. They've got problems, they want your drug magic or a quick fix, or answers you just don't have. You can't send them away empty handed. You've been taught in a way that biases you towards solving any issue with drugs. So you proceed to throw shit at the wall until some clump sticks "well enough", tell em to try it and come back in two months, then stack to minimize side effects as necessary. There ya go bud, all fixed. :^)

Systemic change is needed. Starting with actual diagnostics, and not that SPECT bullshit that one fool is trying to push. That's not a real evolution of psychiatric diagnostics.

>>8209264
>There are such things as degrees of presence. It's not 0% or 100.

You say that but at the same time you keep making blanket statements about the entire modern approach of dealing with mental illness.

The cognitive dissonance is fucking staggering.

>>8209281
Nets out as gutter trash. Unless you don't know what "nets" means...
:^)
:^)
:^)
:^)
:^)
;^)

>>8209291
yeah that's exactly what I've been trying to explain to you about your arguments.

>>8209298
:^)

>>8209302
If that's all you can say I'll just declare myself the victor and be on my merry way then

>>8209302
: v )

>>8209308
Okay bye.

>>8209310
I'm going

>>8209309
>:V^()

>>8209314

>>8209325

>>8209329
( ı‿ı)

>>8209333
(###(^---^)

>Tfw severe anxiety unless i take some benzos
>Don't wanna get addicted so only take them like twice a week
>suffer with anxiety the rest of the week and do it all over again
How do I enjoy life like this?

>"r-respect my condition!!! i'm a special snowflake!!!!!"

gtfo kids

>>8209350
Kava or phenibut.
The former can be consumed whenever, the latter has similar issues as your benzos. Neither substantially affect higher faculties, and in some ways even enhance it. Kava especially as far as visuospatial processing in moderate doses. High doses over a long period of time increase reaction latency and motor inaccuracies, similar to ethanol.

>>8209358
nobody said that, retard.

>>8209359
Will look into kava

>>8209361
triggered self-diagnosed autist detected

please, tell me about your """""genetics"""""

>>8209363
Make certain it's a noble variety and is explicitly labeled as not containing any leaves, bark, or stems. These parts contain toxins (to the liver) the levels of which are proportionate to their exposure to sunlight. The rest of the plant (root and rhizome) are fine. I prefer dried or powdered versions, but ethanol tinctures are okay as well.

For what it's worth, the whole deal with liver toxicity of kava and being banned in numerous countries was due to sloppy distributors getting cheap and using leaves and stems. As well as potential mold contamination, which is why you only go for noble varieties.

I'm quite wary myself, and have had bloodwork done after heavy kava use. No elevation of markers for liver cell death. I hear some people get a rash, but to my knowledge that's also caused by compounds highest in stems and leaves(inducing phototoxicity), and I've never had such a thing.

Hate to make kava sound like such a sketchy and high stakes deal, it really isn't. As someone with terrible anxiety myself, to a point of being practically unable to form thoughts, it's one of the most useful tools I have. It will likely remain so until I have the means to eliminate environmental stress.

>>8209359
>that feel when kava is illegal in my country while phenibut can be bought as a diet supplement

>>8209217

I googled your post but no papers showed up.

>>8209456
I have to go for now.

Start with e.g.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=histamine+neurotransmitter

Things like this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27260166
Seem relevant, though I only glanced over the first paragraph of the abstract.

>>8209470
Actually, I quickly did another search. This yields much more specific results.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=histamine+neurotransmitter+dopamine
Sort by relevance.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25820671
etc.

>>8209493

So, where are you going with this? Is your startling revelation that we haven't fully mapped out how brain chemistry works? Where is the link between these papers and you decrying the evil jewish big pharma ADHD conspirators?

>>8209370
nobody said that, retard.

>>8209497
Stop compartmentalizing. I've already answered all of your questions in previous posts. Seriously, there's something just not quite right with you medicated sorts, and I'm not trying to mock you either.

>Is your startling revelation that we haven't fully mapped out how brain chemistry works?
This has been addressed in a prior post, in full. The answer is yes and no, because it's not the central point.

>Where is the link between these papers
You're too used to people doing your thinking for you. I will not watch you eat my regurgitation, that is simply disgusting.

>decrying the evil jewish
Never mentioned the Jews.

>big pharma ADHD
Big pharma are corporations, which are by nature amoral (else they are gobbled up or stomped out). They exist to generate and maximize profit, whether for share holders, owners, to buffer R&D costs (with 2+ billion per annum in raw profit, lol no), etc. In addition most regulatory agencies are revolving doors for industry, gosh golly I wonder why. Use your head, would you kindly.

>conspirators
Injecting unnecessary elements. ironically I'm going to tell you to stop being so creative. You clearly are poor at even trying to control for where reality likely ends and creation begins.

My socks and shoes are on. I am out the door.

I have ASPD, I wish there was a medication to mitigate the symptoms.

My mind is constantly working against me, it has been particularly bad since an old friend killed himself last month.

YOU HAVE BEEN VISITED BY THE ISLAMIC TRUCK OF TOLERANCE

______________¶___
|religion of peace ||l “”|””\__,_
|______________|||__|__|__|] beep beep!!!
(@)@)*********(@)(@)**(@)

>>8209524
Hey, give France a brake. :^)

>>8209517

It's really funny how highly you think of yourself. The idea that you might be wrong isn't even on the table, everyone who disagrees with you are just drug-addled sheeple who can't think for themselves, only you, the arbiter of right and wrong can truly see how deluded we are.

I'm not doing this for myself though, I'm doing independent and novel work on my PhD and clowns like you are just annoying background noise, all bark, no bite. The only reason I bother is that I dont want deluded fools like you to dissuade people like me from getting help.

>>8209006
>Mental illness is BS to obtain dokoarydoos
A frogposter would know.

>>8209006
>Have schizoid personality disorder
>Absolutely every day of my life is nothing but suffering
>Apparently my condition is BS just because somebody on /sci/ said so
Ok kid

>>8209996

U just need 2take a cold shower and snap out of it dude :^) just b urself

>>8209555
>The only reason I bother is that I dont want deluded fools like you to dissuade people like me from getting help.
Not a very substantive approach you're taking I see. Speaking of all bark and no bite... ;^)
:^)

>>8209996
>Schizoid
>Suffering
Maybe drop the labels and try to actually figure yourself out, and make yourself what you want to be.

I was a "schizoid" when I was 18 - 20 too.

>>8210961
just be urself xD

Thanks for the n of 1 - you have to be one of the most arrogant, condescending twats on this board.

>>8210973
My sample population is every human being I've ever watched or interacted with. I'm not afraid to evaluate the underpinnings of how a system functions (spectrum of possibilities), and then extrapolate using iteratively refined heuristics to control for error. I am not a mindless sensor, nor do I hold it as an ideal.

By your logic n is never greater than 1 anyway. Which is pretty dumb tbqh. :^)

>>8210951

Too busy actually doing real science to argue with dropouts on /sci/ :^)

>>8210982
Okay. I'll be sure to peg your "real science" full of holes if I ever happen across it. You're very likely not capable of producing solid literature, so be sure to post one day. Cause' that is that, and this is this. You'll tell me what you saw, and I'll tell you what you missed. :^^)
:^)
;;^)

>>8210986

I'm sure your fringe audience of dropout NEETs will be really impressed at your debunking :^)

>>8210988
I don't debunk.

>>8210981
> I am not a mindless sensor

>>8210992
Yes. That is what I said.

>>8210990

not successfully anyways

>>8210996
No, I just don't in a general sense.

>>8210997

Yet here you are attempting to debunk mental illnesses...

>>8210998
I don't debunk. I disassemble a logical framework and evaluate its elements. From this contrast you can readily build other structures.

Debunking is typically as hollow and net faulty as what it seeks to invalidate. It's a damaging and useless mindset, as are the people that hold it.

Debunkers are 3/10.

>>8211001

Goes without saying that this noble work is done from your moms basement.

>>8211003
No.

>>8211005

Then what sort of credentials do you have, what are you studying, what sort of academical achievements do you have?

>>8211011
I am major in gender studies.

>>8211011
Academic qualifications are, like psychiatry itself, a tool of the global Jewry for legitimising collectivist servitude.

>>8211020

Wow those are some impressive academical achievements anon, I can tell why you feel that you're in a position to educate us common rubes on sci :^)

>>8211011
None. I have more or less my lifetime of self study, and it continues. What was otherwise scattered interests really picked up as far as biology and medicine when I was ~12 and recognized my health was failing. Genuine interest and curiosity mixed with personal relevance and a sense of necessity, I doubted I would be alive in my twenties, but now here I am. And thirty doesn't seem so far off. Organisms are machines, and luckily I had a natural drive to understand what they were, could become, and the means to do so.

Even if I had credentials I wouldn't tell you though. I'm used to not having a title to hide behind, what I say has to stand on its own substance, and it must demonstrably get results.

I will likely never formally become involved in any given field. I fully realize there are major limitations in being an outsider. There are circumstances where I'd change that, but none in the foreseeable future. The marginal leverage it'd get me wouldn't be enough to change a field by force, even given time.

>>8209006

Psychiatrist and theoretical neuroscientist here.

People seem a little confused ITT.

Ask me anything.

>>8211026
You should have noticed by now that when given a choice between using an s or a z, I universally use a z.

Shame on you for being so easily fooled.

>>8211038

That's cool anon, I'm doing research on neurons in in vitro micro electrode arrays in a research project that is pretty much first in the field.

Guess what, before I started taking meds for my condition I was a dropout candidate and now I'm doing frontline research on neurons. Can you even imagine how little credit I give your unfounded opinions on neuroscience?

>>8211051
Meds or not, you've remained unable to grasp my point, no matter how many times it's conveyed to you. Good luck with performing research with that binary thinking.

Again, what I said still stands. When you have a paper to link, do so. If I'm on /sci/ to see it, we'll talk.

>>8211053

There's no point to grasp, it's just a bunch of pompous ramblings from a fool on the internet. I'm not doing this to convince to change your view though, I'm just making sure that everyone else can see how fucking retarded you are so that they will not start parroting your drivel.

OP is wholly uninformed.

>>8211053
Your sum contribution to this thread is a pubmed search of 'histamine neurotransmitter' and some shit about food allergies. Go away.

>>8211057
"I see nothing, therefore, there is nothing to be seen."
Solid reasoning you've got going on.

My main intent at this point is just to pick at you a little bit. So you might come back to this thread later, when your emotions have calmed down a little bit and you're able to think clearly. You will read what you wrote, see when you wrote it, see what spurred you to say. You might push it to the peripheries of your mind, but some part of you will ask "why".

From my angle it seems quite apparent you're mainly lashing out over a battered ego. Which is understandable and quite natural when someone has highlighted and contradicted a core belief that you've integrated into your sense of identity, and would be better left not to question.

>>8211065

wow

>>8211065

Hello OP, I do not think you have a good understanding of psychology or neuroscience; I therefore recommend that you refrain from making threads pertaining to these topics.

>>8211065

>>8209006
>Mental illness is BS invented to oppress people and obtain dokoarydoos, right?

Wrong. I had a psychotic break in 2011 and got diagnosed with bipolar disorder. I take pills daily for it. It's not fakery. You can argue that shit like ADD and ADHD are not real, but bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are very real and require drugs.

>>8211068
I mean it, Anon. Take a good look at yourself. I'm not the one who's guarded and trying to puff myself up. You asked a question and got an answer.

Besides, you seem to think you're contradicting what I've been saying when you're not. ie, you don't grasp it. You were unable to accurately extract information, which is obviously a personal deficit. I've given you the means to see and correct for this. Rest is up to you.

>>8211063
Nah.

>>8211081
personal experience?

plot twist: OP is an unmedicated manic

>>8211091
Yes faggot. Personal experience.

>>8211096
Do what you gotta do.

>>8209214

>We've only unlearned how to make use of the obvious.

What's the obvious?

>>8211073
I'm not OP.

>>8211081
The dialogue for most people, is not whether or not the symptoms of a given disease state "are real". No one is questioning that uriniary content / metabolites differs substantially between people with eg schizophrenia, and controls. Or myriad other objective measures that cluster heavily in people displaying certain behaviors.

It's all, all about this:
>and require drugs.
This is an unsubstantiated lofty claim, and there's evidence against it. It assumes a massive amount about the underlying nature of a disease state, its mechanics, its origins and contributing factors, and the means by which it can be interfaced with.

It's bad philosophy masquerading as hard science. You cannot take a mechanistic approach to describing low level aspects of a disease state without also acknowledging that the person themselves -is- that very machine. There is a lot left wanting as far as being able to state that eg bipolar is simply a mechanical failure, and that diet, lifestyle, and individual's own conscious input cannot do anything about it. It's absurd, it's lazy, and it's delusional.

Talking specifically about bipolar and going back to histamine. Are food allergy tests ever performed? No, barely ever. Is cognitive behavioral therapy ever tried, or any attempt to unearth deep buried mental conflict? Rarely. Are people ever encouraged to identify triggers and learn to control for them? Not in my experience. It's all about them mood stabilizers. "'You're broken, now take these drugs it's the best you'll ever get." It's a faith-based religion.

>>8211110

just stop

>>8211112
No. If you don't like it, leave.

>>8211112
I'm not him.

>>8211116
>>8211120

Just stop

>>8211110
I have bipolar disorder. I take lithium, and my psychiatrist keeps up with the literature and gives me advice on exercise, diet etc. I have also tried CBT. Where on earth are you getting the idea that drugs are the only thing being offered to patients like me?

>>8211110
>It's bad philosophy masquerading as hard science.

No. There is very old science proving that people on lithium do better than people who don't take lithium. You also don't need to know how the drug works to know that it's efficacious. I'm going to take 600 mg of the stuff before I go to bed tonight, prescribed by a medical doctor, which is a more trustworthy authority than any of the Szaszist conspiracy blogs you can cite.

Blown the fuck out.

>>8211123
>He desperately wants control
>He desperate wants to be relevant
Last response. :^)

>>8211123
lel

>>8211129

>Last response. :^)

That's what we're trying to achieve

>>8211125
You'be bipolar too? ASL?

24 / Male / Victoria, Canada,

>>8211110

Anon, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

>>8211125
>I have bipolar disorder.
Yeah, and? Firstly, can you prove "having bipolar" is what you think it is?

Secondly, I was diagnosed as bipolar as well (with a cautious and casual off the record suggestion of schizoaffective to encompass some other stuff involving panic attacks and hallucinations). I had severe depressive episodes and occasional hypomania as a child. Began experiencing frequent mixed states in high school. And guess what? Since I'm not part of a religion or school of thought, I unraveled and fixed my issues. Then by golly by gosh, eventually, no more mixed states. Very rare (and predictable) hypomania, depression is not an issue either. Why? Because it ain't magic.

You're a machine, and there are reasons for all of it. You might not be me, but that statement is a constant.

>Where on earth are you getting the idea that drugs are the only thing being offered to patients like me?
Sensory organs and brain relative to time.

>>8211128
>There is very old science proving that
>proving
indicating*. And there's also very old science showing the good ol' lithium shuffle.

>You also don't need to know how the drug works to know that it's efficacious.
I never said you did. I said you needed to know about the machine the drug is affecting.

>prescribed by a medical doctor, which is a more trustworthy authority
I'd be dead if I thought like you, and my father would have died 2 years earlier.
Good luck you lazy faithful little man. I genuinely hope you dodge all the bullets by sheer chance.

>>8209161
Granted, vague imbalances in one's head are pretty weak reasons to get amphetamine. But assuming that this is literally what psychology makes of ADHD (without sources it is an assumption at best), where is the justification that one should take it. If there is no such thing as mental illnesses but people may do as they please, what speaks against amphetamine for everyone?

>>8209167
> too much emotional I mean cultural baggage
> people just pretend to be sick to do sick things while they actually just feel like it or profit from them
> we should not use words that can be misused
Call it funnypeoplefeelingsguilt if you want to, in the end it matters that you can communicate what is going on in your head. However you call it, what matters is if it is real and which word conforms to cultural correctness and whether you acknowlege it does not matter to whether "whatever" solicits taking drugs most people should not take and whether there are different effects to different groups of people.

Even if you did not want to come off as someone who wants to solve an issue by giving it another way, you apparently did.

>>8209192
^this

>>8211157
>>You also don't need to know how the drug works to know that it's efficacious.
>I never said you did. I said you needed to know about the machine the drug is affecting.

That's the same as knowing how the drug works.

You're a retard.

>>8211157

>I'm not part of a religion or school of thought, I unraveled and fixed my issues. Then by golly by gosh, eventually, no more mixed states.

Fantastic science, anon.

>>8211167
No, it isn't. If you severe a white matter tract and, know you severed a white matter tract, it does not mean you know how the system as a whole responds and why.

Alright, I'm tired and done talking to intellectually deficient people. I've got better shit to do.

>>8211171
(Just in case you missed it, the religion is psychiatry)
Hey, it's not quite science but it uses proper risk assessment and gets results.

>>8211176

>I've got better shit to do.

You fool no one anon, we know this is the highlight of your week

>>8211176

>Hey, it's not quite science but it uses proper risk assessment and gets results.

>Sample size: 1.

>Methodology: self-reported and subjectively drawn correlations of unknown significance.

Once again anon, fantastic work.

>>8211176

>I'm tired and done talking to intellectually deficient people.

The irony is golden.

>>8211176
> Alright, I'm tired and done talking to intellectually deficient people. I've got better shit to do.

the party continues at http://reddit.com/r/iamverysmart

>>8211178
My week actually had two highlights:
-Getting really drunk on kava and a bit of ethanol, adding some phenylethylamine, then eating some chocolate. I proceeded to go and hook up a water pump, and fix some pipes. When you have a pipe that's above ground, then make it be below ground, it's very satisfying. I have visual snow and the lighting was just such that sparking patterns moved radially and adapted to objects in the visual fields, which formed patterns and looked pretty neat. Watered these flowers I dug up and replanted, which seemed to take on a sense of extreme contrast and vividly "shine". Then there was a nice sunset, which I don't usually care about but noted as the context at the time.

-I got the zlib / deflate components of my png decoder written and functional. Compiling that and watching the ever so slightly longer linking phase (using lto), was satisfying. Executable size is still beneath 100 kb, and it's very efficient.

My weeks aren't too grand. But it was okay enough. :^)
Bye thread. Hope the ratio improves here.

>>8211182
Guess I'll just ignore the majority of modern neuroscience and assume none of it happened, then. I'm too scared to extrapolate from my low sample size...
:^(

>>8211187
for you

>>8211194

>Guess I'll just ignore the majority of modern neuroscience and assume none of it happened, then

Please do elaborate on this; educate me on how modern neuroscience assisted you in understanding your situation.

Spare no details and be thorough.

>>8211194

>Guess I'll just ignore the majority of modern neuroscience

Just like you're doing now

>>8211182
Also, some food for thought to leave you with.

If you take a blood sample and measure some trivial aspect, like bilirubin or ALT, and you read the results yourself... does that mean you results are self reported? Is there no way to generate a paper without self reported results?

Hmm... science seems to have hit a dilemma by this logic... good luck with that one I guess.........
.....
...
.
:^)

>>8211206

That's why we use statistics, you muffin.

>>8211204
Nope, sorry. You created an environment of too much dick around, and now I'm both very tired and extremely apathetic. Words cannot describe my disinterest in the prospect of engaging in any sort of dialogue with you. You've lost any chance of extracting value from any of the time you've invested. Mostly due to not properly reading my posts and a bias towards binary judgements.

Maybe I'll respond later. In any case, you're going to be waiting until I feel like it. If I don't ever end up bothering, do some hard research on histamine's role as a neurotransmitter, altered blood brain barrier permeability (to the immune system as well) in states of chronic inflammation, and substance p in the trigeminal nerve branches. Assuming you have any interest in the human machine, you will readily interpolate what I'd be telling you anyway.

Night Anons. Or morning rather.
:^)

>>8211216

>Nope

That's exactly what I thought.

>>8211218
Bye, idiot.

>>8211216
>extracting value

>>8211216

Then go away, and please don't ever come back. You will never be met by anything but derision here, everyone can see through your paper thin disguise as an intellectual.

>>8211219
>I thought
No you don't... :^)

(Provide indication you have anything I want by the time I check this thread again.)

Mental illnesses are bullshit insofar that they imply an actual difference in the ordering of one's faculty of mind. “Heavy” illnesses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are merely different reactions to one's state; some postulate schizophrenia is the adult's reaction to the double bindings of their childhood. They (most mental illnesses) generally can be treated with a change in mindset, change in diet, change in setting and climate. The term mental illness refers to those mindsets which diverge from the generally accepted, and labelling them as illness is misleading, for it is quite common for these people to have strong points in areas uncommon to others; art, for example, is dominated to an extent more than other fields with the mentally ill. One could say, though, that the mentally ill is the label for those who are too weak in mental faculty for the common lifestyle, and too short-sighted for other lifestyles. I often call those 'disordered' who act with very odd and convoluted prejudice and no rationality, but those types are so common it would be silly to send them to a clinic.

>>8211227
>Mental illnesses are bullshit insofar that they imply an actual difference in the ordering of one's faculty of mind. “Heavy” illnesses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are merely different reactions to one's state; some postulate schizophrenia is the adult's reaction to the double bindings of their childhood. They (most mental illnesses) generally can be treated with a change in mindset, change in diet, change in setting and climate. The term mental illness refers to those mindsets which diverge from the generally accepted, and labelling them as illness is misleading, for it is quite common for these people to have strong points in areas uncommon to others; art, for example, is dominated to an extent more than other fields with the mentally ill. One could say, though, that the mentally ill is the label for those who are too weak in mental faculty for the common lifestyle, and too short-sighted for other lifestyles. I often call those 'disordered' who act with very odd and convoluted prejudice and no rationality, but those types are so common it would be silly to send them to a clinic.

>>8211227

One loony leaves and another enters... The ride just never ends.

>>8211226

>(Provide indication you have anything I want by the time I check this thread again.)

That would be your job, anon.

Which you have failed to do.

>>8211235
No. I'm the one in control here, sorry.

>>8211235

>I'm the one in control here

Oh look, an appeal to dominance; what a good chimpanzee.

Have fun being an idiot.

>>8211243
>He doesn't realize I'm making fun of our interaction as a whole
>He doesn't realize I'm making fun of the typical dynamic that had tried to play itself out in this thread
>Can't resist the leverage of jumping on the notion that I'm at all concerned with our power dynamic, ironically
Feels good to be the one deriving entertainment at your lack of understanding. I hope you're actually laughing or at least grinning too.

>>8211249

If all of your posts are troll posts, then well done.

>>8211254
I ought to make it clear that they aren't. Though I did assume the last one would be seen as a joke. Everything I've said thus far was genuine.

bump

Resurrection...
:^)

>>8209006

>>8209006
>I read the SlateStarCodex blog

Sounds like a legitimate, peer-reviewed source of evidence and not at all a conspiracy theorist blog.

While we're at it, how many years left until all life on our planet is wiped out by Nibiru?

>>8212811
>trusting peer review
>talking highly of systems you don't understand
>still not realizing the miserable state of scientific publishing, corruptible nature of peer review, and that the shift towards open access journals is the only viable future thus far
>Slobbing the Elsevier et al knob(s)

>>8212815
I'm not gonna pretend like psychology is a rigorous science, but mental illnesses have consistent symptomatology, prevalence, and they respond to treatments in ways that are statistically significant. We don't have a physiological basis for diagnosing or even understanding these diseases we've classified, but they exist regardless.

Either you're passionate about solving the reproducibility crisis in psychology, or you're just a babbling retard who thinks "depressed people are just selfish attention seekers". Which is it?

>>8212823
We'll talk about psychiatry primarily.
>and they respond to treatments in ways that are statistically significant
Multiple large scale studies and meta-analysis (which I'm wary of typically) have found anti-depressants in common use (whether SSRI, SNRI, whatever) are no more effective than placebo in resolving depression. Psychiatry as a field is far gone enough that it needs to be gutted, and culture around "mental illness" must change.

>Which is it?
Neither, though indirectly (as in implicitly but not primarily) I'd lean towards the former in some ways. I want a culture of intelligent, adaptive, and realistic perspectives. Both within medicine and otherwise.

hey look it's this shitty thread again

>>8212842
>We'll talk about psychiatry primarily.

I mean, psychiatry is essentially just the application of medicine to psychology, but that's beside the point.

>Multiple large scale studies and meta-analysis (which I'm wary of typically) have found anti-depressants in common use (whether SSRI, SNRI, whatever) are no more effective than placebo in resolving depression.

I would like to see those meta-analyses for my own information. Those kinds of studies inform decisions like FDA approval.

>Psychiatry as a field is far gone enough that it needs to be gutted, and culture around "mental illness" must change.

I mean, you just (hypothetically) disputed one facet of psychiatry. There's still hundreds of other documented mental illnesses which we treat somewhat successfully with pharmaceuticals.

>>8211065
/sci/ always reacts this way when mainstream information is challenged. When it was suggested that smoking and secondhand smoke was pretty much harmless they went into full on denial mode.

>>8212881
>When it was suggested that smoking and secondhand smoke was pretty much harmless
harmless other than ruining your lungs

>>8212848
>Those kinds of studies inform decisions like FDA approval.
Not really. The FDA is a revolving door for industry, conflict of interest is sharp and there have been many obvious cases where this had a functional impact on decisions.

The pharmaceutical industry is in a curious place right now. While their overall behavior hasn't changed, the context has. Most of the low hanging fruit we're able to be aware of at present, have been long since plucked. This necessitates more involved higher risk R&D, and the spectrum of small tweaks you can make to existing medications when your patent runs out, is growing small or non-viable. This puts a greater focus on slowly expanding offlabel uses for existing medications to increase their use. Which is a small part of why medication is being overused, and used in places it doesn't belong.

>I would like to see those meta-analyses for my own information.
All the papers I'd accumulated over the years are on a hard drive I don't presently have access to. I'll look for them, but don't remember the titles or if they're indexed by pubmed etc.
[...]

>>8212881
>When it was suggested that smoking and secondhand smoke was pretty much harmless they went into full on denial mode.

Because it's bullshit? Has it ever occurred to you perhaps that the anger comes out of frustration with ignorance and stupidity, rather than some weird, pathological desire to maintain the status quo?

>>8212886
>There's still hundreds of other documented mental illnesses
Mental illness is arbitrary. I could delineate plenty of common behaviors I think are signs of improper and (self) destructive mental function. Mental illness has always been a means to control a subset of the population via how people perceive certain traits. Ultimately, humans are machines. From an accurate perspective, the mind can't be treated like the rest of the body in classifying disease states. Don't be fooled, modern psychology might be shifting towards a perspective where illness is defined by an individual's own discomfort (harm to others is irrelevant), relative to certain cultural ideals, but this hasn't been the case for the vast majority of human history. People who weren't quite right were ostracized, tortured, used as guinea pigs, and often ultimately maimed or killed. The "obvious" feel-good definition, is very new.

Humans have also proven they can't handle it. Any of it. Just in a general, abstract sense. There is too much slavery to confirmation bias, and too little self awareness.

If you want an example, read about the Rosenhan Experiments. Or any one of the many "sane" people who were diagnosed with some manner of mental illness and found it -impossible- to prove their sanity. Even the most normal human behaviors were framed as symptoms of a disease state, or complex. Even talking openly about being there for first hand knowledge on the treatment of psychiatric patients and perception of mental health was skewed to be sign of delusions of grandeur or whatever. It all really is inane and most of the people involved in psychiatry have no competence or business being there.
[...]

>>8212886
>All the papers I'd accumulated over the years are on a hard drive I don't presently have access to. I'll look for them, but don't remember the titles or if they're indexed by pubmed etc.

Well, I'll check back later to see if you've posted any. But until then, I'm going to continue to operate under the assumption that pre-existing clinical studies concluded correctly that SSRIs are effective.

>>8212889
>which we treat somewhat successfully with pharmaceuticals.
Ah, and yet you recognize it. The key weasel word here being "somewhat". Personally, I think outcomes are unacceptable and pathetic. And we have the means to do better.

Here are some previous posts I made in this thread. I made the mistake of dragging in a number of elements I shouldn't have, I was tired and sloppy. I think everyone has calmed down a bit now.
>>8211110
>>8211157

>>8212889
>Mental illness has always been a means to control a subset of the population via how people perceive certain traits.

I disagree with this on one primary point, which is that the classification of mental disease or disorder relies entirely on whether the person with it sees it as impairing their lives. If that factor doesn't exist, then a diagnosis can't really be made.

>>8212893
>The key weasel word here being "somewhat". Personally, I think outcomes are unacceptable and pathetic. And we have the means to do better.

It's not a weasel word. I recognize that the efficacy of these drugs, in experimental groups isn't great. But that's a result of the complexity of these kinds of diseases, not ineptitude in pharmaceutical researchers.

What 'means to do better' do you suggest?

>>8212881
more like /sci/ always reacts this way when some contrarian crank starts spouting rubbish. He has posted literally 0 evidence for anything he has said.

>>8212896
The post you responded to addressed that. Anachronistic reinterpretation doesn't change the past. Mental health was not treated that way, and it certainly was not defined that way.

4chan is like a gambling addiction, except I never get a return on investment and always leave with only wasted resources. I'm gonna go before I waste any more on you fucked up slot machines that can't even read a post in its entirety.

>>8212887
No, I'm sure the anger has far more to do with the scientific establishment finally being challenged after years of them being set in their ways of simply accepting what really is faulty science. It's too bad people don't see that. More and more people are skeptical of smoking """"""harms""""""

>>8212907
He might not have posted evidence but every smoking thread I've been to had quite a it of links that were for the most part overlooked.

>>8212921
nice bait

>>8212929
So I guess people are just going to react the same way they have since this thread started then...

>>8212929
I stop reading when I see
>"""""
further in the post.

>>8212921
>More and more people are skeptical of smoking """"""harms""""""

I'm sorry, but this is bullshit. You cannot singlehandedly overturn decades of some of the most well-studied medical science on 4chan and expect people not to call you retarded. It is not primal instinct, it is the appropriate response.

Maybe being sleep-deprived is making me fall for your bait easier. Either way, if you're at all serious about this, you're an absolute retard contrarian.

I'm going to bed. I hope for your sake you were just fucking with me.

>>8212933
So you stop reading when you see something completely irrelevant to the actual content or argument being made?

>>8212901
>What 'means to do better' do you suggest?
I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Though no one ever seems to understand.

We're ignoring the obvious, and it's not because it's actually a high level heuristic that poorly describes something more far nuanced. It's because we're dumb, resistant to change, and lazy. People don't take the time to form a comprehensive framework that properly unearths, defines, and connects the underpinnings of the everyday. Medication is only so appealing because it provides the delusion that you can continue living as who you are, who you think you want to be, and in the life you're used to. Drug the problems away while ignoring the mechanical impact of environment, and one's own mental patterns.

The sooner mental health problems stop being treated as strictly mechanical failures, or hazy "chemical imbalance" of a magical origin, the better. It is the only means for real progress. And it hasn't happened yet because society is not very compatible with the notion of personal change. It's about specialization, predictability, and fixed function roles.

I'm gonna bail on this one. Take it as evidence I'm some stupid shithead that doesn't know anything, has never seen anything, and has never done anything, if that's what you'd like. As far as I'm concerned the fact that I'm even here and generating coherent outputs is evidence my methods are the ones that actually get meaningful results. But I can't fix the world. Even with the will, I haven't the time.

>>8212937
It's similar to how I stop reading when I see Every Word Capitalized. I realize I'm reading something written by someone with the mental maturity of a toddler.

>>8209006
I don't think of these things as "mental illness" instead i feel that these people just have a different personality. Drugs can never cure a mental illness, i don't think. Something like dementia or alzheimer's is something i would consider to be a mental illness though in which case there are drugs for.

>>8209006
I'm schizophrenic. I hear voices and see things. When I take my meds, I dont. You people have no clue what you're talking about if you don't think this shit is real. It's horror.

>>8211262

Well then, you're an idiot.

>>8209006
Nah the problem is you OP, think that abnormal behavior is just being eccentric, and it makes you retarded as fuck, and evidently uneducated on the subject.

But keeping saying that until one of your family members believes that you're being hunted by the FBI and puts you in a car at 3 am at night when you're 12 years old, and tries to drive off a cliff.

That's what happened to me; this family member is now healthy and lives a normal and productive life, after having gotten help. Help which includes medication but also therapy.

>>8213286
Why be so willfully ignorant and consider neurological dysfunction as mental disorders when mental disorders are perfectly legitimate on their own? Dependent personality disorder, major depressive disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, etc. are not just "different personalities" you literal autist.

"Oh, yeah, wanna hang out with Frank later?"
"No, he's bothered by a crippling apathy and anhedonia. I'll pass."
"Nah dude, it's just his personality. You just gotta get used to it."
Unless Frank's a nihilist, I don't tend to think most people would voluntarily be depressed around the clock. Or socially anxious, etc...

I must be being baited here because that is really stupid.

>>8213286

>drugs can never cure a mental illness
>Chemicals can never influence other chemicals

What

>>8212935
So you'd react the same way regarding global warming, even though climategate is a thing that exists? This is why I don't take people seriously here. It's all just pandering to the mainstream opinions without any real questioning of the actual truths. It's like how the modern day skeptic movement is comprised of nothing but liberals and moderate liberals.

>>8212938
I'm sorry, but you're speaking in platitudes. The way that you unravel an entire discipline of science is through landmark discoveries, not a bunch of weasel words and wishy-washy nonsense. If you have an experiment or a hypothesis to present that could change how we view mental illnesses and psychiatry, then I'd be glad to hear it. Otherwise, you're just speaking nonsense.

>>8209006
Sure, there's a lot of bullshit especially surrounding ADHD, depression, and OCD. It's relatively easy to fake symptoms for those diseases just to get a drug which is why people like us don't take the treatments for them seriously. People suffering from the real thing actually suffer in those cases. Then there's the truly debilitating diseases like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and Autism. Those people in a lot of cases cannot even function in society.

I've met people in every category above and all of them suffer to a larger extent than I and most other people do. The problem with pharmaceuticals is that its for profit so its corrupt to its core. Some people, including people in my family, whom I've worked with, and my closest friends have been able to piece their lives together because of medication so it's not all bad but it's something that is further from perfect than most things.

>>8209006
>All these people who have legitimate mental illnesses which are causing them to cynically decide that mental illnesses don't exist

It's sad, really. If anyone here is having any doubts, I can't recommend seeing a therapist enough. (Therapist = talking, psychiatrist = meds).

>>8213734
>It's relatively easy to fake symptoms for those diseases
There would be a simple solution for this: do away with prescription bullshit. Not only it would keep morons from wasting doctors' time, but also do wonders for natural selection.

>>8213756
I don't agree with this simply because many of the people I care about would be ruined. I wouldn't want to be denied treatment for something just because some people think the treatment is inherently dumb.

>>8213756
>change laws in such a way that mentally ill or stupid people will tend to die in painful ways

Wow, sounds like something a mentally ill person would come up with. Maybe your mental illness really does cause you to make bad decisions, and is not merely a scam by the lizard people to trick you into giving money to pharmaceutical companies.

>>8213779
If you really don't think the pharmaceutical companies are doing whatever they can to maximize profits and that they aren't shady beyond belief then you're the one with the problem.

>>8213771
I guess I phrased it wrong. I meant that I think any kind of medicine should be available for purchase to any adult legally considered sane enough to make their own decisions. People who fake illnesses to get prescriptions should be free to buy what they want without wasting anyone's time. Meanwhile people who want to consult a doctor before ingesting mind-altering substances would still be free to do so.

>>8213779
>change laws in such a way that mentally ill or stupid people will tend to die in painful ways
People considered too mentally ill to make their own decisions are generally kept in hospitals. But why does law have to prevent those want to screw themselves over from doing so?

>Maybe your mental illness really does cause you to make bad decisions, and is not merely a scam by the lizard people to trick you into giving money to pharmaceutical companies.
Try responding to the actual post next time, rather than your lunatic extrapolation of it.

>>8213934
>If you really don't think the pharmaceutical companies are doing whatever they can to maximize profits and that they aren't shady beyond belief then you're the one with the problem.

What they can do to 'maximize profits' is to create more and more effective drugs. I'm sorry, but the 'big pharma' conspiracy narrative about chemists intentionally selling bad drugs is hocus.

>>8213676
>So you'd react the same way regarding global warming, even though climategate is a thing that exists?

You mean the hacking of climate research centers where a bunch of non-scientists dissected sentences from actual scientists to try and make it look like a conspiracy?

>It's like how the modern day skeptic movement is comprised of nothing but liberals and moderate liberals.

That's probably because American scientists are predominantly liberal. However, that's not to say that Democrats are the 'party of science'. They still represent anti-vaxxers, anti-nuclear folks, quack homeopaths, and all the other weird, crystal-grippy off-shoots of the hippie movement.

Although the Green party is doing an excellent job of peeling them off of our political platform though.

>>8214000
They aren't selling bad drugs, they're taking advantage of the public by driving out other drugs with health benefits or with stigma attached to them, like marijuana.

>>8214070
>You mean the hacking of climate research centers where a bunch of non-scientists dissected sentences from actual scientists to try and make it look like a conspiracy?

Those sentences were very blatantly shady and struck of deception though. Just look at them.

And it's funny you mention this since someone tried to do the same thing to the heartland institute by claiming they were supplying global warming misinformation.

>That's probably because American scientists are predominantly liberal.

What I'm trying to say is that these skeptics almost always support liberal science and never seem to question climate change, secondhand smoke, DDT, alternative energy, etc.

>>8213435

I really wish I could just take the ADHD out of my brain and put it into OPs for like a week or so to give him an idea of how fucking real it feels.

I'll be starting my neuroscience PhD soon friend, hope we can one day get a better cure for this shit.

>>8213733
The discoveries have already been made. It's just building different structures out of the shit you already have.

I'm sorry you'd rather continue creating an environment where people who need real, meaningful help, are only treated as broken for life.

what shithole country are you living in where the only treatment you get for sktizery is meds.

>>8216460
USA, world superpower ;)

>>8211017
I kek'd

Formerly hospitalized for over a month for schizoaffective/bi-polar here. Yes, most of psychiatry is bullshit. It stems from a flawed conception of human nature. NEVER did they ask about problems in personal relationships in my life. They pretty much never considered that my behavior was a reaction to having abusive and neglectful parents and siblings. In fact, they pretty much didn't get to know anything about me at all. Their "diagnostic procedure" was laughably un-thorough. They went right to meds. The psychiatrist I saw was a PhD from a world-renowned university and even he skipped over the basic questions like, "Have you ever been beaten?" or "Does your mother regret given birth to you and remind you everyday" or even things like "Were there any complications with your birth" or "How old were your parents when you were born". After doing more of my own research on what makes humans healthy in general, I've realized they pretty much entirely missed out on the important questions. They didn't ask about my ancestors, they didn't ask about my living conditions, they didn't ask about my diet, etc. Right to the fucking meds after a multiple-choice quiz that asked leading questions and was riddled with flawed presuppositions about human nature.

I've been off my medication for over a year and figured out that what was causing most of my "symptomatic" behavior was a result of unresolved problems, which I subsequently fixed. I haven't had a single "symptom" since I figured out what was causing them. Lithium, seroquel, risperdal, zoloft, etc, they pretty much did nothing for me except kill my erection and make me tired. These drugs don't help you with anything they just slow you down and make it hard to think.

There isn't a pill to cure being human. Fuck psychiatry.

>>8217046
I think that's really valid. Going straight to meds is not the right answer at all, it's terribly irresponsible. My psychiatrist makes sure that everything in my life is right before going to the meds. Exercise and diet is HUGE. Being active and positive helps so so much as well.

But the voices I hear, the delusions and hallucinations I have just don't go away without seroquel. But it can really be mitigated and even "cured" for a lot of people with the right lifestyle changes.

I definitely agree with the idea that meds aren't the end all be all of mental health. It's a big problem. But for OP to say something like "mental illness doesn't exist, period" is just so wrong.

I bet that 90% (hyperbolic) of "mental illness" cases can be fixed through lifestyle changes/resolving personal issues, but it is real. There's absolutely no way for me to survive as a normal person without the meds and therapy. Judging by a lot of the opinions in this thread, that just makes me a weak-willed drug-addled sheep. But if taking a couple pills at night makes the voices stop telling me to kill people/myself, I am happy with it.

>>8218047
>But for OP to say something like "mental illness doesn't exist, period" is just so wrong.
The OP didn't say that, you and others did. You made it up.

>>8217046
I think this says it pretty well, and concisely. I'm the anon that more or less sustained this thread earlier, and this is what I was trying to convey. The nature of any given mental state, its origins and contributing factors, and how you can interface with it, is bullshitted by psychiatry to be nothing more than an intrinsic mechanical failure. This creates a culture and environment where instead of helping themselves, or getting actual help, people are framed as broken for life and drugged up enough that they can't bother changing shit.

If psychiatry was worth a damn your story would be the norm, not the exception.

>>8218047
>I am happy with it.
That's fine, as long as you acknowledge you're making a lifestyle choice.

>>8218084
>If psychiatry was worth a damn your story would be the norm, not the exception.
(I mean as far as ultimate outcomes)

>>8213756
lol

>>8216473
I've had diagnoses for anxiety and both times, a mild prescription was recommended alongside therapy. Especially for schizophrenics there are more options out there. Why lie to yourself if you're not just too lazy to get institutional help?

>>8217046
What's with SSRIs and sexual dysfunction?
Zoloft and adderall here, I can't beat it until my addy wears off, but when I don't take adderall I do fine.

>>8218084
Actually, all of the psychiatric assistance I've had stated that my issues can be remedied and that I should go temporarily on a medication, work in cognitive behavioural therapy (again, I have anxiety and depression, my experience differs from that of the schizotypal) and begin to repair my mentality. It's worked wonders, and I live in the US.

From what /I/ can tell, psychiatry as a field is shifting from the ideas of the past and evolving to rely less on medicine and more on basic introspective values, with the core idea that you are not beyond saving.

>>8213964
>I guess I phrased it wrong. I meant that I think any kind of medicine should be available for purchase to any adult legally considered sane enough to make their own decisions. People who fake illnesses to get prescriptions should be free to buy what they want without wasting anyone's time. Meanwhile people who want to consult a doctor before ingesting mind-altering substances would still be free to do so.

Oohh. Totally. That's a whole rabbit hole of a debate for me but okay.

>>8218105
>I've had diagnoses for anxiety and both times, a mild prescription was recommended alongside therapy.
As someone with severe anxiety, I can bluntly tell you that what you just highlighted is not a positive, it is part of the problem. We have the means to know better at every turn, and are too fucking stupid to piece it together and use it.

The body is a machine, and anxiety is a high level experience that can have myriad underlying causes, and is usually of a multifaceted basis. Not all of which are strictly psychological and environmental. If you have a patient with anxiety, you don't just throw some benzos (or worse SSRIs) at them and say "get therapy". You must unravel the bigger picture. What is their diet like. Is there evidence of digestive system problems, eg, SIBO / IBS. Is there evidence of poor histamine degradation, or allergy. You must be smart enough to ask targeted questions and figure out if there is any hard, mechanical cause to be reconciled.

Else they are left to fix their other problems while continually fighting against a physiological bias towards the miserable hell that is anxiety. It really is ironic, either they ignore environment and history, or they ignore the body itself.

>From what /I/ can tell, psychiatry as a field is shifting from the ideas of the past and evolving to rely less on medicine and more on basic introspective values
Not possible until private interest gets its tendrils out of the fields.
Even if it does happen, it's pathetic it took so long and all the lives these morons affected are solely on them.

>>8218084
>The OP didn't say that, you and others did. You made it up.

>(OP) Mental illness is BS invented to oppress people


Hm. Sounds like OP is saying mental illness is bullshit invented to oppress people. Because that's literally what he said. If mental illness is "invented bullshit", yeah, he's saying mental illness doesn't exist. It's invented bullshit.

>That's fine, as long as you acknowledge you're making a lifestyle choice.

Over the course of 3-4 years I've made lifestyle changes, exercise, diet, environment changes, etc. My best and healthiest time off meds was with great routines involving a lot of exercise, sleep, therapy, etc. Doing the exact same things with medication brought nearly complete stability. Yeah, I guess you could say that using medication to be a healthy, functioning person is a lifestyle choice. Doesn't mean the meds, or the mental illness is bullshit though.

> This creates a culture and environment where instead of helping themselves, or getting actual help, people are framed as broken for life and drugged up enough that they can't bother changing shit.

I agree 100%. All I'm saying is that not EVERY single case is bullshit. The vast majority probably are though.

>>8218129
Alongside the script and therapy rec, my body was assessed, my physical health was assessed as well as my living conditions, which are stable (I'm 18, living with loving parents in the upper middle class, just out of hs). I used to live in a neighborhood with bad, bad crime, causing for my anxiety. After using therapy to discover the reasons for my anxiety, it's mostly dissipated. Social anxiety was another thing, and cognitive behavioural therapy helped.

>It's pathetic it took so long.
Psychiatry has only been a field since, like, the 1800s, what the fuck are you talking about?
Plus, private interest is a problem in every field and does not discredit it. Example of private interest fucking shit up: prisons.

>>8218131
>If mental illness is "invented bullshit", yeah, he's saying mental illness doesn't exist. It's invented bullshit.
Okay, I see what's happened here. We process "mental illness" very differently. To me it's a macro philosophy defined by the norms of a given culture, or subset of the greater population. To you it's more of a basic umbrella descriptor.

>Yeah, I guess you could say that using medication to be a healthy, functioning person is a lifestyle choice.
I could say that because it's the only truth worth calling true.

>All I'm saying is that not EVERY single case is bullshit.
Rather than going case by case it's better to look at the typical actions and stances of the field and deduce the logical framework they must be acting on. This is where the bullshit lies.

>>8218148
>Psychiatry has only been a field since, like, the 1800s, what the fuck are you talking about?
If there was ever a point when we didn't have the means, it is long enough ago you can't put a date to it. This is obvious when you look back and see clustering repeating outcomes and dynamics throughout history. Only technology allows us to be the same things in a new way.

We are machines of finite mind. Anyone claiming we haven't always had the means to know better, and then did something stupid anyway, is either a moron themselves or a liar.

>>8218152
OK, I can actually get behind all that.

To be honest, from what I've heard I'm just lucky that my doctors recommended doing things like exercise and good sleep first.

When I had to go to the mental hospital during a psychotic episode (I was a minor and was forced to go, though I'm glad I did so I didn't hurt myself or anyone else), the doctor there saw me for 2 minutes and on the spot me prescribed 4 new meds. Really stupid, because the episode had to do with me not following good lifestyle habits, it wasn't a problem with my medication. That sort of philosophy is for sure bullshit.

>>8218170
>That sort of philosophy is for sure bullshit.
It's all net bullshit. Disingenuous, dishonest bullshit.

Anyway. I'm in a lot of pain and generally have too much emotional investment to get involved in the topic at this point. I just hope one day the world all knows what I know, and sees what I've seen. Better yet, that they don't know and won't ever need to. And no one will be lucky to have dodged a life on lithium, or aripiprazol, or [horseshit of the era], finding meaningful realistic solutions to their real problems.

>>8218129
>Histamine
>Diet

So if i eat a perfect diet and stop taking antihistamines i will be restored to full mental health?

t. bipolar sufferer

>>8218313
No, you'll very likely have to put in the effort to identify triggers and learn to counterbalance, avoid, or unravel them. You'll need to take a hard look at your life, who you've trying to live as, the roles you're in, and look for deeply buried sources of mental conflict. You'll need to think if you're suppressing or contorting your emotions to translate them into something they aren't at their core.

Histamine is a modulatory neurotransmitter that ties in with quite a lot. If you have allergies (chronically high baseline endogenous histamine production), intestinal problems, or problems with breaking down histamine (inefficient DAO / HNMT), it could potentiate rapid mood shifts, depression, anxiety, cluttered mental state, etc. More or less regardless of what you do, it will be a constant biasing force that you're fighting against and will make any attempt at management difficult.

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