/sci/ - Science & Math

>>7729843
I am a math major and I do not appreciate you extrapolating from this single event to the general case in such a fashion.

>>7729843

They do if you're at Caltech or MIT. Possibly also Princeton.

>>7729853
OP:

REKT
E
K
T

>>7729853
Good point.

I encourage all of you, even the engineers here, to go find a pal who studies engineering but is also pretty casual about math. I say casual because if the guy is some kind of math geek he probably already saw the proof in numberphile or in some book. And ask him to prove that there are infinitely prime numbers.

I say ask a friend because I know all you engineers will google the proof anyways and say "Well I can do it so you are wrong!"

Anyways, to you I say that the mistake he was making was so obviously a mistake that I could not believe what I was hearing. If that is the average engineer I don't want to know what the guys who are even worse than him will think. And the best engineers can't be that much better anyways.

>>7729862
or anywhere near urop

>>7729866
bro this is like high-school math, what are you babbling about.
You're just in a shit uni.

>>7729843
well you are a prick basically op
you can't expect someone to come up with that proof on the spot can you?
sounds like you were reading chapter 1 of how to prove it by daniel velleman and were just trying to show off.

>be me, a math major
stopped reading there

why do you think anyone cares your abstract pure theory platonism nonsense? Math majors are completely deluded daydreamers, and the fact that they think their nonsense or anything they have to say has any value or applicability to the real world is just laughable. Your degree is so impractical that you might as well be studying occult witchcraft. Nothing you say has any grounding in the real world and nobody will ever take you seriously when discussing the real world. So why I should I read your faggot ass post which is most likely something like
>e-e-engineers don't p-prove all their axioms before they build bridges or systems!

>>7729843
As a civil engineering student I can confirm you that we only use babby's maths. Don't even bother argue with the guy About maths.

desu engineers are an embarrassment of stem

>>7729871
He is not from my uni. But yes, it is high school math. Go and ask your engineer friends if they can with this high school math.

>>7729877
I did not really expect him to come up with the proof of the spot. Like I said in my post I asked him to prove that JUST so he would realize what his mistake was. Had he just said 'Oh, I see your point' that would have been enough. Then the problem came when he made the same mistake now with a high school tier problem.

And I was doing problems of my linear algebra book.

>>7729862
Or Berkeley.
Or UCLA.
Or Stanford.
Or pretty much any well regarded program.

>>7729891
all my friend engineers and I went through the same bachelor's education as mathematicians and physicists. And then we go through competitive exams. So I don't even need to ask them, because if they didn't know how to prove this shit, they would be begging for money on the street.

>>7729891
you could have just explained what you thought he was assuming
instead of showing off

>>7729878
>abstract pure theory platonism nonsense
My degree seems pretty practical. It prepares you to work in finance, statistics and software engineering. Plus the fun 'abstract' classes like topology that even then also have real world applications. I don't see your point mr. buttblasted.

> occult witchcraft
I am glad that you admit that to your untrained eyes, what I do to find an isomorphism between two spaces is occult witchcraft. Honesty goes a long way.

>Nothing you say has any grounding in the real world
Seriously, everything we get taught has application. This can't be said until you enter grad school and I would never claim that 'I am doing super abstract stuff so I'm smarter than you' because it is not true.

>e-e-engineers don't p-prove all their axioms before they build bridges or systems!

But this is not the problem I was talking about. He wanted a go at one of my problems. Made a mistake. I wanted him to learn because I knew he hadn't taken this class but his proposition had a correct conclusion so if only he learned the prove his way up to there he could actually be correct. But because of his lack in basic logic he could not see the mistake even when I was hitting his face with it.

>>7729901
More or less what this anon said.

Being a dickhead helps no one. The truest proof of understanding the material is being able to discern what is going wrong in someone else's logical framework, and providing an argument that convinces them to change it. This helps everyone, including you, in the case that your own ideas are in some way wanting.

>>7729901
But then I did. In my post I said that then I explained what the relation between a set, a subset of that set and a superset of that set is. Here he just gave up saying he didn't get it.

Do you want me to put it even more simply?
How would you over simplify the already core concept of sets.

>>7729907
Okay then. Did you want me to draw him a fucking Venn diagram? I perfectly explained with words what he was missing in his reasoning and then he just went away.

>>7729862
No, many do not. Go look at the MIT lectures for the calculus sequence.

I'm a civil engineering major and I understood what you meant if that's any consolation. All I can tell you is that you can't make assumptions about the general population based on one isolated experience.

>complains engineers aren't logical
>proceeds to commit a logical fallacy

Mechanical engineer here. We don't really do "proofs" in engineering, we just learn the mathematics we need for practical purposes. A deeper understanding of maths is great though, it's something I really wish I had.
That being said, your point about the subset and superset was clear, though I still don't know how to go about proving there are infinitely many prime numbers.

>>7729843
>>Be me, a math major
>>Reading a math book
>>Civil Engineer friend comes by and sees what I am doing
>>Proposes a solution
This is where you went full retard. If your math is so low tier that an engineer can understand the question, then you are certainly a high school calculus babby and nowhere near any real math.

>>7729973
He proposed a solution and was wrong. What the hell are you talking about?

I can take any problem and propose a solution and that doesn't mean I am good enough to actually get a correct one.

>>7729986
Proposing a solution means that he read the problem and it meant something to him. Thus your math was so low tier that even an engineer was able to understand it. If you read a real math text instead, the engineer would have never proposed a solution but instead made a retard face and asked "what the fuck is L-adic cohomology?" and then he would have just called you a freak and left you alone.

>>7729991

You are probably the kind of faggot who congratulates his son when he says that 4+4=5.

'Well, you didn't get it correct but you read the problem! And it meant something to you! You are so smart my son. Lets get ice cream because you were so smart that you even proposed a solution.'

>>7729995
Your problem was sufficiently trivial that even an engineer thought he could have an opinion on it. Says a lot about your level of education (or lack thereof).

Chem E with applied math minor here

don't give a fuck about pure math, don't give a fuck about all the proofs you memorized in your pure math classes. Too busy making dollars and taking cocks up my ass.

>>7729843
>mfw i have a civil engineering degree and i had to prove a bunch of shit for my math minor

>>7730009
Why do people assume we memorize shit other than definitions?

Do you know how many theorems, propositions and corollaries we see in our books? It is impossible to memorize all that shit. I don't even remember that the proof was for the shit we did in the previous chapter. I barely remember what was stated.

>>7729878
>proven
>axiom
Kek

>>7729843
i take the same math courses as mathfag spergs
suck a fat dick autist

Weird how an engineering major doesn't know as much math as a math major. Not even an engineering major but the rule of thumb is engineering majors have a huge workload and math/physics majors have difficult work.

You are correct OP. this is the reason I am doing math and engineering.

how do you wanna prove infinity to him physically? all you had was an explanation.

and know that even while you where right at the end, he wasn't wrong.

OP sorry but you're just a faggot

>>7730274
Engineers confirmed for not even understanding the concept of infinity.

>>7731015
Wildburger confirmed for engineer.

>>7729843
have fun being "smart" and proving your concepts or whatever faggot. I'll be earning 200k/year after I get my aerospace engineering degree with a 4.0 gpa and get hired by NASA. I already get mad pussy as it is, at the end of the day, you're just a virgin nerd.

>>7729843
>Got ChemE degree
>Now doing pure math in my free time

I never knew why people hate engineers, now I understand
>Doing Variational calculus homework
>other chemE asks what im doing
>tell him variational calculus
>looks at the paper
>oh yae, I remember that, we did that in our first year
No you didn't you fucking nigger, I went to the same university as you, you never did var calc, just because theres a integration symbol doesn't mean its calc 1 you ass
>Doing group theory
>MechE looks over my shoulder, asks what im doing
>give a short explanation
>oh yae, I cant even remember that anymore
Maybe because you never fucking knew it you lying sack of shit

This happens every time im doing 3rd year math and an engineer (which almost everyone I know is) sees it, are they fucking incapable of just admitting they dont know something? must they always act like they studied everything in their degree?

>>7731036
>mfw someone brags about sex on 4chan
>mfw he is a literal /r9k/ frogposter
Never stop, you glorious nerds.

>>7731041
>must they always act like they studied everything in their degree?

From my experience with /sci/ engineers, because they flaunt their 'heavy courseload' all around so I guess they feel ashamed when we can point at something trivial they never did.

>>7731036
>/r9k/ frogposted faggot thinks he actually has a go at NASA.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Now please don't tell me you are also white because if you are then tough luck. They already got Ahmed Mohammed to engineer the nuclear clocks for the ISS.

>> talking to a friend who is an engineering student about constructing the set of real numbers
>> he is listening, not fully understanding, but trying
>> another guy I know who is studying engineering is also listening
>> "Dude you are talking bullshit, just say the reals are a subset of the set of complex numbers"

>prove that there are infinitely many prime numbers

That's some high school shit.


Engineers are really stupid.

>>7731061
> just say the reals are a subset of the set of complex numbers

That's just gold right there. In all seriousness, engineers are capable people and probably smart but it is just shameful how weak their basis of mathematics actually is.

>>7730274
>prove infinity
>physically
You're just concatenating words which seem relevant to you, aren't you?

>>7729878
THIS.

>>7729843 (OP)
Here's the problem with you math faggots. You think your math is actually relevant to the real world. It's not, it's actually harmful for applied people to think like you do.

Math seeks to find more fundamental axioms and build previous axioms from the there. You become so obsessed with your own discipline that you forget the axioms where there in the first.

Take real number system. We defined it to be infinite, just as we can define prime numbers to be infinite. Just as we can define 1 + 1 to be 2 without needing 800+ pages of Peano autism.

The Civil engineerfag saw this intuitively because that's how he was trained. Just like you were trained to be an autist instead of being good at actual useful math.

>>7729843

>Such low-level math an engineering student is capable of understanding what is happening.

all_of_my_keks.jpg.wmv.exe.avi.png

EE student here. Myself or any or any of my peers that I associate with, would not be able to solve this. We don't really need the proof sides of math, just vector calc and pdes to solve our equations. I do not see anything wrong with that because if you can do your required calculations, you will succeed.

>>7729843
Prove that there are infinite natural numbers

>>7731152
1 is natural
n is natural
n + 1 is natural

>>7731137
Having a hunger to learn math beyong what you are required is valued more than being able to solev PDE real quick like a champ.

>>7731158
Prove that 1 is natural
Prove that n is natural
Prove that '+' is a valid operation that can be performed on natural numbers

>>7729843
I study CS.
Tbh, after some careful thinking, I came to the conclusion that the only way that makes sense to me to prove that is to somehow 'construct' a new unique prime number using a formula or from any other natural number. And if there's infinite natural numbers, then it must be possible to construct infinite new unique prime numbers.
But I had to Google how to actually construct such a number because I couldn't come up with it myself

>>7729843
Sometimes, in special circumstances, knowing a fact and remembering a fact are the same fucking thing.

Good luck in your job hunt, autismbot.

>>7731167
>Prove that 1 is natural
By the Peano Axiom no 1, 1 is a natural number.

>Prove that n is natural
Thats assumed in that step, then proven once n + 1 is shown to be natural.

learn how induction works

>Prove that '+' is a valid operation that can be performed on natural numbers
'+' is defined by S(n + m) = S(n) + m
S(n) is defined by Peano Axiom no 2: Every natural number n has a successor S(n).
Thus '+' can be performed on all natural numbers

>>7729914

Yes draw a Venn diagram you faggot.

How do you ever expect to teach anyone anything with that attitude?

>>7731195
Ok good job.

>>7729843
You are not going to the right ones.
I haven't gather real data, but would say around 85% of the engineering schools that just need some moderate calculus, that a math major would call basic. Then there is the 15% that are held as "real" or "traditional" which require that students know enough math to actually understand what they are doing rather than just plug numbers in. Then there is the 0.1% "hardcore" engineering schools where you are required to significantly advance humanities understanding to pass, so they teach you everything in hopes you can do it.

My thermal electrical material properties professor should have just said "If you fail to develop a super conductor that works effectively at 5 degrees higher then the current record holder, then you fail my class."
I got a D+, but learned so much I was mistaken as a guest speaker at a international thermal conductor conference. You should have seen the job offers fly in when they found out I hadn't completed my degree.

>>7731181
If you can't prove the "fact" you think you know, you don't know it.

>>7729878
>p-prove all their axioms
Ahahahahah lol

>>7731159
I am taking 2 extra 3rd and 4th year math courses myself (for interest) but for what most people do on the job in engineering the extra math isn't neccissary.

>>7731125
>we can define prime numbers to be infinite

Engineers confirmed for believing that proof is that 'We defined it that way. QED'.

Try again. At least my friend tried. You are just stupid.

>>7731437
At least your friend can read. You seem to have zero reading comprehension. No wonder you couldn't get into engineering.

>>7731152
Let B be the set of the natural numbers.
It is finite and complete.

Take Bn, B's largest natural number and add 1.
Bn + 1 is not divisible by any Bi so that
(Bn + 1)/Bi = 1 such that Bi = Bn + 1 so our list was incomplete. Now B is finite and complete.

Add 1 to Bn+1.

Thus we prove that no list can be complete therefore the set cannot be represented by a finite set. Therefore it must be infinite. QED.

>>7731179
>And if there's infinite natural numbers, then it must be possible to construct infinite new unique prime numbers.

You are close in a weird sort of way. The proof consists of indirectly proving that a bigger prime number can be constructed.

>>7731332
Prove it.

>>7729843
1+1=2..1+2=3..2+3=5..2+5=7..1+2+3+5=11..1+2+3+7=13..2+3+5+7=17..11+1+7=19..19+1+3=23..19+2+3+5=29..29+1+1=31..31+1+1=33..33+1+3=37..37+2=39..41_43_47+1+3=51......

>>7729878

Math majors on suicide watch

Pure math is basically the STEM equivalent of Postmodernism

>>7731125

>mfw the parallel postulate

Eulerfags are hilarious

>>7729995
Of your native language is English, you are an idiot, too mad to understand what you read or both. Just drop out and let those do the math who are able to read and keep their calm.

>>7731332
A proof can only make reference ultimately to something unprovable, or only observable.
You do know the nature of mathematics is communicating succinctly (efficiently and accurately) between individuals, NOT navel gazing, right? What you're talking about is reductionist bullshit, a reversion to infant form, like the annoying brat replying with the question Why? no matter the degree to which the question was answered from the original question.

1+1=2..1+2=3..2+3=5..2+5=7..7+2+2=11..11+2=13..13+2+2=17..17+2=19..19+2+2=23..23+2+2+2=29..29+2=31...29+2+2=33..31+2+2+2=37..33+2+2+2=39..39+2=41..39+2+2=43..43+2+2=47..

>>7731717
That is no proof. It is an interesting observation but you can't prove that this sequence can go on forever. Specially when the secuence itself has a weird pattern that I would not even call a pattern anyways.

And even if the pattern is that they are all prime numbers then I would point to the first member of your sequence which is a sum of non-primes that yields a prime.

>>7729884

How hard is civil engineering on a scale of 1 to 10 and what's your maths background. What other subjects are important?

>mfw math majors get majorly butthurt by engineers for some unknown reason (higher salary? actual career path? actual practical skills?)
>mfw engineers forget that math even exists as a major
top kek op, keep raging at windmills you fucking pure maths autist
top kek

>>7729843
>meet mathematician friend
>he was ill informed about a subject
WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS LYING TO ME THAT MATHEMATICIANS ARE WELL INFORMED ABOUT THIS SUBJECT?
AND DONT TRT TO TELL ME THIS GUY WASNT THE AMBASSIDOR FOR ALL MATHEMATICIANS

>>7731798
>He thinks that undergrad mathematics is pure math.

I laugh so hard at this. Everytime they say this I picture them taking my linear algebra book and going to the problems section and reading "Prove that..." and just abruptly stopping saying
'NO! TOO ABSTRACT! LINEAR ALGEBRA IS MULTIPLICATION OF MATRICES AND NOTHING MORE!'.

Only to then realize that it was some trivial shit like prove that there is an isomorphic map h between the space of polynomials of second degree and the space of three tall column vectors.

Undergrad mathematics is just applications plus some interesting observations that will make your life easier when working in real world problems related to the subject.

>>7731785
It's not intended as a proof. It's intended to distract me from finals prep without contributing to this degenrate masturbation fest.

>>7731785
Actually since we're on the subject, your reaction is exactly proof of a point I made earlier. You're ignoring what's interesting, even to you yourself, to focus your energies on explaining. Without considering that you're ill-equipped to explain. Thoughts are not sentences you tell yourself, bub.

>>7729862
>>7729896
Their engineers are also shit at math. Engineers solve problems. They do not think. It deductive reasoning.

It really doesn't matter where you go for STEM. Countless studies have proven this over the past few decades. School prestige matter for politics, business,and humanities. You see a lot of MIT engineers work with Unknown State U engineers. In major cities they're all hired in hte same places.

>>7731861
>It deductive reasoning

>>7731861

Caltech requires proofs courses for engineers. They use Apostol as their calculus textbook.

MIT has a theoretical option for calculus and probably has lots of math-literate engineers.

>>7731913
sad that only the elite engineers can get this kind of education over there.

>he thinks engineers learn about abstract ideas
kek

>>7731920
>i am a huge yuropean autist faggot, please fuck my face

>>7731913

This is literally not true.

>mathfags can't even into galerkin's method

>>7731570
You realize that engineering would basically be the STEM equivalent of English if it wasn't for mathematics still keeping it relevant to today's world, right?

>>7731125
I think you missinterpret the point of theoretical math (math where you take axioms and build theorems and shit). The whole point is to build mathematical constructs that may or not be useful in the immediate future.

The point is that someone in the future can use those constructs you build to build more math. It's equivalent to an engineer building a device that helps build bridges. Or a method that makes building bridges easier. It's not useful to anyone except engineers. Does it make it any less useful as a whole? Depends on what you consider useful.

The math that mathematicians do is not meant for anyone except mathematicians and we should all be aware of that. It's the part where it stops being theorems where it's useful for other people but it's the theorems that made the math possible in the first place.

So riddle me this: if math autists are so smart, why can't they all contribute anything useful to society? Surely there must be something new in all that math knowledge that they can use to make the world a better place.

>>7731158
No quite. You have to assume the naturals is bounded (finite) and draw a contradiction.

You have to use the completeness axiom and say since the natural numbers is bounded, the supremum exists. Since it exists, a theorem says that there's an inequality where there's a natural number greater than the supremum minus any small number epsilon (think about it, it makes sense since the supremum is defined as the smallest upperbound but nevertheless it's a theorem that needs to be proven.)

Call the epsilon one and add it to both sides. That natural number plus one is still a natural number by the inequality, is greater than the supremum, contradicting that the supremum is an upperbound of the natural numbers. It can't be bounded.

>>7732079
Read >>7732064

>>7732063
>Engineering would be English if there wasn't mat...

What the fuck is even this metaphor. That doesn't even make sense.

>>7732100

Without math, engineering would basically just be English.

>>7732162
Your metaphor is retarded and you should feel retarded

>>7732162
It's like you're trying to generalize the entirety of Arts and Humanities as 'just English'.
Without mathematics, engineers would still create things, which is much more similar to arts and crafts, than it is to just English..

>>7729896
>tfw studying a new major in my uni
>tfw the courses are all intro to other shit
>no real depth
>just calc 1-2 and differential equations
>engineering thermodynamics instead of real thermo
>just an 'applied physics" class
>tfw the whole major is just like 340 credits
>tfw you wont have enough maths or physics credits to apply to a nice master

I should have studied physics

>>7732168
Do you think they feel retarded?

>>7729843
It's not part of the curriculum. Proving properties of the real numbers does not help you design an aircraft, so it is phased out in favor of material that is actually relevant to the real world.

>>7732449
I perfectly understand this. That is why instead of sperging out and saying 'ARE YOU STUPID OR SOMETHING' I tried to explain him how to reason his way to the conclusion but then I was surprised at how little he actually know about the 'basics' you could say.

A strong founding in logic would not hurt anyone. Logic and problem solving being in the core of the mathematics curriculum is the reason why math graduates have amazing acceptance rates in grad school of any type. From CS to engineering to pure mathematics.

>>7729878

why would anyone nowadays need a math major, if we got wolfram alpha

son the companies will find out about it and math will become ancient

>>7731792
It's maybe a 3 or 4. Just need to know basic trig, calc, and linear algebra. Maybe some stats too.

>>7733336
OP stop bumping your own thread. Spam is against the rules.

Also senior Civilfags do FEM analysis, but I don't expect you to know anything about engineering.

Sage