/sci/ - Science & Math

>>7675370

You should work harder instead of posting on /sci/.

>>7675372
Believe me, I'm studying pretty hard right now. It's just that I look at people that do this stuff as easy as breathing, and I wonder if maybe I should find a major that comes just as naturally to me.

>>7675376
Nothing will come naturally to you. Everyone is working hard and your here on /sci/.

>>7675370
No, sounds like you're in exactly the right major

>>7675376
Ohh boy... See you flipping burgers in a year.

The people you see 'having it easy' have probably worked their asses twice as hard, as you.

>>7675378
>>7675390
you're right guys, I'm just being pissy cause I haven't slept well.

Might as well ask here about a problem I can't solve:

>Matrices A and B are associated to the same linear operator f : U -> U if and only if A and B are similar to each other

I can prove that if they are associated to the same linear transformation that they are similar, but not the reverse. Any help?

>>7675376
The reason it seems to come naturally to them is because they have worked incredibly hard to drill the concepts into their skulls. It wasn't easy when they started. Repetition breeds familiarity.

>>7675370
don't quit

i had my troubles with LA (i even had to attend a second exam to pass it) but know i'm just starting my masters in phyisics.

it's just hard work and LA needs some time till you get the concept (i always found calculus to be waaaay easier but that's just my subjective viewpoint)

>>7675370
yes, right now you're only strengthing the stereotype on this board about cs majors

>>7675370
Usually people who fail intro math courses end up switching to engineering or cs so stay right where you are, no need for math skills there.

>>7675382
I think I'm wrong
also studying CS and math is way more interesting than other lectures

CS math is ridiculously easy

I haven't passed a single programming lecture, while easily passing linear algebra, analysis, discrete structures and theoretical computer science

I actually didn't know anything about math at school, weird. I didn't even know what a linear function is or how to deal with them

>>7675370

You're already in the dunce major.

>>7675638

Forgive if I'm taking the bait - I'm unfamiliar with /sci/, is there a genuine consensus here that CS is less difficult or otherwise less important than physical sciences and mathematics?
If so, why?

>>7675664
/sci/ is net garbage. Ignore its consensus "opinions", if you can even call them that.

>>7675664
>why?
Because these people are insecure nerds who jump at any opportunity to make themselves feel smarter by accusing other people of being dumber. It's self-serving jibberish founded on fragile self-esteem and delusions about the importance of schoolwork.

>>7675401
what does it means for a matrix to be associated to a linear operator

>>7675664
Hi, OP. First:
>>7675666
>>7675670
CS fags detected. If you want a cruel and cold commentary on your degree then don't listen to people in that degree. It is like me, a math major, saying to another student "Yeah, we math majors have plenty of job options when we graduate. Can do anything! 300k! People who say otherwise are just insecure nerds who jump at any opportunity... bla bla, what that fag said."

So I will break down my criticism in two parts

>Why it is less difficult:
It is less difficult first because the level of math is lower than other degrees. Most CS degrees will only reach Differential Equations, some even ignoring that. I have also found CS degrees that do not even require linear algebra (if you want a source for that, just ask). That is pretty shitty. I mean, Linear Algebra is caveman math. 17th century if you want to be generous. Differential Equations are also centuries old math. You are not learning anythign that puts you above anyone else. Also half of your courses are filled with "intro to programming" which is not real science, it is just memorizing syntax and functions to make "algorithms". That is nothing like taking a real cold math or science class.

>Less important
The truth is that CS is a useless degree. It does not have any jobs unique to CS graduates or even graduate programs unique to CS graduates. Let me elaborate: A job for Software Engineering can be taken a math or physics grad. Even someone with no degree but programming experience has a shot at it. Computer Science PhD and Master programs also accept Mathematics students because it is here where it becomes more theoretical and more of a "real science". But in the contrary, you cannot apply to the Math department at the NSA with a CS degree and you can't join a Pure math PhD or Ma program with a CS degree. That is why CS is less important. Replaceable and useless. Anyone can do what you do so why even specialize in it? Sounds like "Fast Food Cashier Science"

You won't take anymore difficult math classes, if you want to do CS or not is independent from your linear algebra performance.

Also since this is probably your first linear algebra course, doing poorly literally means just fucking up algebra/not doing it fast enough.

These are things you can do exercises on.

>>7675707
>Replaceable and useless. Anyone can do what you do so why even specialize in it? Sounds like "Fast Food Cashier Science"
This basically. Sort of niche, like getting your uni's proprietary "interdisciplinary" degree.

>less difficult
Adding to this, departments are anything but unified in what they want someone to know before graduating. A lot could be condensed or treated more rigorously, and some greater manner of structure will likely be applied to the disparate electives when the field becomes more developed.

>>7675670
>insecure nerds
To an extent. We see a lot of total idiots go into undergrad CS, half because ayy vidya and half because they really had no direction at all besides getting told to do something STEMmy. The same type of people you've probably noticed feeding into (and out of) engineering. And even the smart ones don't seem particularly passionate about it. My group theorist friend tried to talk about the recently proved nearly polynomial time bound to the graph isomorphism problem with CS guys and circlejerk on P vs NP, and maybe one in five had even heard of time complexity before.

So whether it's cognitive bias or well-founded, we do tend to blame CS itself for the sins of the father.

>>7675707
>CS fags detected.
I'm a highschool dropout that's 22 and struggling to write a resume.

Can't do it, not even if sober. Can't get that engine turned over.

>>7675707
>It is less difficult first because the level of math is lower than other degrees. Most CS degrees will only reach Differential Equations, some even ignoring that.

Those Comp-Sci programs are shit. Every CS student should AT LEAST take Linear Algebra, Calc II, Physics, and Discreet Math.

Hardcore CS majors should be taking Curves and Surfaces, Quaternions, Splines, Advanced Linear Algebra, Thermodynamics, etc.

> Let me elaborate: A job for Software Engineering can be taken a math or physics grad.

You seriously believe that, don't you?
Maybe if you're coding in Python, MATLAB, JavaScript or some other babby language.

If you're asked to write programs in C or C++ all that knowledge of mathematics won't do shit. You have no idea how to make cache-friendly, optimized code that is readable, usable, and flexible.

Hell, CERN recently released some examples of C++ code that they were using. They were calling new for every. Single. Element. in a 3x3 matrix.
The whole point of the script was to be as fast as possible.

You may be able to write a perfect simulation, but that's completely useless for, say, games where every CPU cycle can count.

People like you who think they could write code without hardly any training are the bottom of the barrel in the industry.

>>7675802
> Element. in a 3x3 matrix.
I meant 3-Dimensional matrix.

>>7675802
>Discreet Math

>>7675807
You got me there. I have no excuse for that.

>>7675802
>using `new` ever in sepples
Government funding at its finest.

>>7675802
>You seriously believe that, don't you?
I don't believe that, I have solid data to back that up..
I won't do the hard work for you but I will give you directions. Look for university surveys that give data on what jobs their graduates are getting. 60%-80% of math and physics graduates end up in software related jobs depending on how good the school was. The better the school, the higher % of people in software jobs.

>Maybe if you're coding in Python, MATLAB, JavaScript or some other babby language.
If a company pays you to write code in 1s and 0s made out of literal human shit then there is no reason not to. Take your >muh language elitism dank memes to /g/, faggot. Here we are talking about serious job prospects so fuck off if you want to bring in memes.

>If you're asked to write programs in C or C++ all that knowledge of mathematics won't do shit. You have no idea how to make cache-friendly, optimized code that is readable, usable, and flexible.
Any C and C++ book explains all of these things. And as far as I know most math programs in college teach C or C++ and it is CS programs that are pushing the python/java route. All of the things you mention will be covered and if not then you can self-learn pretty easily.

>You may be able to write a perfect simulation, but that's completely useless for, say, games where every CPU cycle can count.
Moot point, I doubt math/physics grads would even apply to game companies. It is always CS fags who have the game dev dream in their ass.

>People like you who think they could write code without hardly any training are the bottom of the barrel in the industry.
Sure. I will just stay here holding out for you to see my 5 self-taught languages. My handful of published apps, some made with not just one but 2 - 3 languages, all with pretty decent ratings, 4.3/5.0 average and my summer internship at a software company that I did being just a first year math student.

Why didn't I just choose CS!

>>7675802
> cs major
> thermodynamics

CS undergrad major is easy.
However, some people in this thread are just salty that CSfags get a higher salary than them even though their degrees are supposed more "rigid" than CS. lol
Bitter as hell.
And before you accuse me of being a CSfag. Nope, you are wrong.

>>7675879
Rigid?

Are you trying to say "rigorous"?

>>7675817
Well, you know, by your logic everything they taught in a math class can be learned at home too. So no one should bother with a math degree either.
The only real majors that need you to get your ass in school is Physics, Chem, Bio, etc. because they need specific equipment and you don't find these at a normal home.

It troubles me that CS used to be a small subfield of EE and Math. Now these people in Math treats it like it was a shameful abomination.
Old CS is pretty involved with Math you know. It's just that the courses and materials are dumbed down a lot from 90s so people are easily to get into.

>>7675883
I was typing rigorous but then replaced it with "rigid".
I'm dumb.

>>7675879
This actually

The only thing that engineering or physicists majors have over CS majors is the ability to brag about the extra difficulty that's needed to obtain them.
That doesn't equate to income or general public appreciation though, (i.e, people give more applaud to video game programmers than to the engineers who accurately made their house possible to live).

Because of this, this board has nothing to do, but to brag about their skill levels in their majors, since they have nothing else going for them in life.

>>7675879

Anyone can get CS jobs. Except more and more employers are ironically looking down on CS majors and treating it was a minus instead of a plus.

How is this for an educational path, what kind of starting wage can I expect and what kind of salary can I expect in 10-15 years assuming robots don't steal my job

Bsc Math
MSC Machine Learning CMU
PHD AI/Neural-Networks MIT

Also if I want to make AI should I just go and work for google?

>>7675664

Because undergrad CS degrees barely cover anything. If it wasn't for CS majors screaming bloody murder every time they are reluctantly forced into learning something, the degree would be more akin to engineering programs and look like this:

>Fall 1
Calculus I
Intro to Proofs and Abstract Mathematics
Physics I
Intro to Programming
Technical Writing

>Spring 1
Calculus II
Matrix Algebra
Physics II
Digital Logic and Automata
Data Structures

>Fall 2
Vector Calculus
Physics III
Electrical Engineering Fundamentals
Computer Architecture
Algorithm I

>Spring 2
Ordinary Differential Equations
Probability and Statistics
Parallel, Distributed, and GPU Programming
Operating Systems
Algorithm II

>Fall 3
Numerical Analysis I
Combinatorics and Graph Theory I
Mathematical Logic
Digital Signal Processing
Programming Languages and Compilers I

>Spring 3
Numerical Analysis II
Combinatorics and Graph Theory II
College Geometry
Computability and Complexity Theory
Compilers II
Database Theory (Seminar)

>Fall 4
Abstract Algebra
Classical Number Theory
Computer Graphics and Vision
Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning
Internet, Networks and Communication Systems
Professionalism, Ethics, and Conduct (Seminar)

>Spring 4
Linear Programming and Optimization
Computer Security and Cryptography
FPGAs, Microcontrollers and Driver Development
Software Engineering Essentials
Principles of Economics
Personal Grooming and Hygiene (Seminar)

>>7675892
>Well, you know, by your logic everything they taught in a math class can be learned at home too
Indeed that is true. You can learn almost all undergrad level topics at home if you get the right books and are not retarded. However, in this day and age you need a degree to have an "easy" time getting hired. So you have to get a degree so you better get the most bang for your buck.

But as I said. Pick CS and get funneled into low tier SE jobs. Pick Math and get funneled by a broader funnel into a broader range of fields.

>It troubles me that CS used to be a small subfield of EE and Math. Now these people in Math treats it like it was a shameful abomination.
CS is not a shameful abomination. I have, sitting right next to me "Introduction to Algorithms". A beautiful CS book. I believe that CS, as any vector of mathematics, is beautiful. The abominations are people who unironically study CS. Literal reddit/b tier fags who wanted to be cool and "with the times" and be a game dev and the typical guy who complains about Calculus and linear algebra being too hard.

>>7675948
>Personal Grooming and Hygiene (Seminar)
Perfect requirement for CS majors.

>>7675946
Just going to give you a quick tip.

Don't plan your academic life beyond what you will be immediately be doing.

I don't know who you are, you may even be a genius. but odds are that your grades in math will fall semester by semester until the point that you barely graduated. After that you will look at the curriculum for your masters (assuming that haven't killed yourself or you already gave up 2 years ago on your "AI plan") and will see a bunch of shit that makes you want to pull the trigger.

Here you have a couple of choices
1- Pull the trigger immediately
2- Continue to live but forget academia and get a job but because you were so fixed on AI for 4 years every day when you sleep and dream you will see yourself as the head of a secret laboratory doing the greatest advances in the field and then you wake up lonely and knowing you have a shitty job. Then pull the trigger.
3- Believe in your dream and apply for the Msc program thinking that your inspiration will magically convert into good grades. Get rejected and then pull the trigger.

>>7675948
>Personal Grooming and Hygiene (Seminar)

>>7675963


I'm actually really good at math and I very much enjoy it.

I don't understand how people can be bad at math. It's literally just following remembering formulas and remembering instructions.

Is Computer Engineering a good major? Applying to colleges rn and that's my intended major as of now. Would I be better off doing straight up Electrical Engineering? I actually enjoy learning physics and calculus so I don't think difficulty would be a problem; obviously it'll be hard, but I mean compared to the original, comp Eng it won't be much more difficult i don't think.

>>7675966
Just from that post I know that you are still in high school and never tried to read book that goes beyond the scope of high school math.

You think mathematics is about remembering formulas and instructions? Well imagine that you are the mathematician that came up with those formulas and instructions.

How did he figure that out? How are those identities, formulas and algorithms created in the first place?

That is, in essence, the kind of mathematics that you will be seeing in college.

You won't be solving problems anymore but instead you will be proving statements. And there is no formula for proofs.

>>7675817
>I will just stay here holding out for you to see my 5 self-taught languages. My handful of published apps, some made with not just one but 2 - 3 languages, all with pretty decent ratings, 4.3/5.0 average and my summer internship at a software company that I did being just a first year math student.

The fact that you listed all these things as sort of a great achievement shows how shit tier and amateur you are. Just stop man. Lol.

>>7675781
>and maybe one in five had even heard of time complexity before

Out of curiosity, what university is this? We got taught about time complexity in 1st semester.

>>7675817

So you made a doodad and a thingamajig?

Do you want a cookie you little engineer that could?

>>7675974
That sounds fucking amazing, I'm the comp eng anon. In high school rn, all these entitled fags think they're so smart cause the tests are exactly wtf the BC Calc teacher does in class. They think they're amazing cause they can take derivatives of elementary functions. I'm not saying I'm smarter than them, but at least I know this shit isn't just memorization.

I've tried to prove some stuff in Physics mechanics using calculus, like what angle gives maximum horizontal range off of a projectile shot off of a cliff, neglecting air resistance, in terms of height of the cliff, Gravity, and velocity.

Is there anything else you recommend me to explore on my own to get better acquainted with applications, and not just memorization?

I know all of Calc I well, and I mean I think I barely grasp the concept of an area element in spherical coordinates, but nothing else. You have any ideas?

>>7675370
no

>>7675802
>Hardcore CS majors should be taking Curves and Surfaces, Quaternions, Splines, Advanced Linear Algebra, Thermodynamics, etc.


Why? Shouldn't they be taking things more relevant to them like more advanced discrete mathematics courses? I can also see number theory/some algebra too, as that comes up in various CS areas. I get quaternions and splines *if* you're going into computer graphics or something, but what about the rest?

>>7675976
>Claims that I'm trying to show off some "great achievement

>The argument I was having was only about how you didn't need a CS degree to be competent at programming.

Yeah, no one is going to buy into that and also
>Just stop man. Lol.
Is not an argument.

>>7675985
Is Electrical Engineering better than Computer Engineering then?

>tfw my linear algebra class doesn't test proofs or axioms

Don't even need to study

>>7675988
I have two points about that. Take them as you will.

EE will typically have less code monkey classes or leave codemonkeying entirely as electives.

EE in average gives you more money than CE.

I have no conclusion as picking an engineering would never cross my mind, your choice.

>>7675978
Yeah, fuck that guy. He should have just stayed home and watched anime.

>>7675995

I feel like watching anime provides more utility than 90% of the things engineers make.

No.
Linear algebra isn't that common.
You'll only need it if you do graphics or AI stuff.

>>7675802
>Maybe you're coding in python...

Shit man, I taught myself basic data structures in C while I was still in high school

Learning "hard" languages and reading SO is something anyone with basic reading comprehension skills can do

>>7675980
>applications, and not just memorization
Best is probably for you to focus heavily on problem solving (have you proven the sphere and cone area formulas by integration? More complex solids?)
"Applications" can mean most anything from functional analysis framing quantum theory to that "maximize utility at MB=MC" problem used as a teaching tool that you can easily understand without calculus. Applications at your level serve almost exclusively to motivate the material you're nonetheless memorizing without proof or sophisticated development. Anon was trying to say the next step up is abstract and rigorous proof-based math. Highschoolfags can benefit quite a bit from Spivak's Calculus as a gentle introduction to what math is really all about. It will give you a different and more sophisticated perspective on the material you're doing now.

>>7676033
Proved surface area of a sphere using double integral, 0-pi and 0-2pi, rsinθdφ*rdθ, but it took me a while to actually do since I hadn't known spherical coordinates before trying it.
I'll try proving surface of a cone next.

I'll look into Spivaks Calculus, thank you!

>>7676005
>Linear algebra isn't that common.

t. retarded cs manchild

>>7675707
>A job for Software Engineering can be taken a math or physics grad.

Without having learned any programming skills?
Yeah, go try it buddy.
They're gonna love that you can't do fizzbuzz, but understand NP-completeness and can read advanced math equations.
A spare class or two is not going to convince anybody you're comfortable programming.

>Even someone with no degree but programming experience has a shot at it.

Wow!
Somebody with professional experience has a chance at getting a job relevant to that experience?!
Holy fuck!
I wonder how people get experience in the first place?
Are they a magical prodigious self-taught wunderkind like in my favorite movies or did they go to accredited institutions which taught them how to program and helped them get internships to prove they can work in a professional environment.

>>7675638
>double cs and math major
cs because i want a job, math because i want to swing an academic dick

>>7675370
Lol.

If you can't do math you might as well go into trades

>>7676078

Fizzbuzz is easy though. It's just a loop and some if statements. Even if you don't know abou the modulo operator (or the syntax for it in the language they want you to use) you can just use extra variables to keep track of the counter mod 3 and 5.

>>7675988
Just get into math and make $300k starting.

>>7676078
>Without having learned any programming skills?
All Math and Physics programs have some kind of CS classes because that is pretty much standard nowadays.
Also, long ago in this discussion, a degree self-learning was assumed.

The entire premise of my arguments is that you don't need a CS degree to get into SE. Many other degrees teach programming to a very decent level and a degree + self learning can get you anywhere.

>Somebody with professional experience has a chance at getting a job relevant to that experience?!
Here is where you entirely missed my point when you said
>Are they a magical prodigious self-taught wunderkind like in my favorite movies or did they go to accredited institutions which taught them how to program and helped them get internships to prove they can work in a professional environment.

I'm saying that someone with no professional or academic training for programming can get into software engineering. A lot of people simply learn to write code on their own, put together something nice to show and get jobs by showing what they can do.

You have not refuted any of my arguments for why a degree in CS is basically useless because you are only trained to do one thing and that thing could be done by anyone else.

>>7676394
>You are only trained to do one thing and that thing can be done by anyone else
I assume you are implying that CS majors are only just trained to program in which case you are still wrong.

Ok. So what do math majors typically do with their degree?
Do they make world changing advancements in our knowledge base? Do they end up as accountants? What does a math major do?

>>7675815
kek

>>7676394
>I'm saying that someone with no professional or academic training for programming can get into software engineering.

They can't though.
This is just bullshit you're making up.

>>7676394

This guy is right btw >>7676821.

You don't know what SE is. Code development is not SE and it the pay is garbage at 40-60k mid career. Being an IT monkey is not really a career. It's an odd job for a teenager.


http://sce.uhcl.edu/helm/SWEBOK_IEEE/papers/10%20reprint%205.pdf
>Calling Software Development Software Engineering
>Unless these activities also include the design of hardware interfaces, power systems, or other engineered components, they do not appear to meet the legal definition of engineering practices.
>It might be more accurately described as "code writing", "product support" or other tasks that the board doesn't regulate.
>...if the practitioner is calling the activity software engineering, he or she is violating the law.

>>7675707
literally
"haha im smart cuz i can math and science better!"
the post

if your goal OP is to make 6 figures a year than just major in anything really. job networking and applying yourself is more important than a degree in the long run. Its just getting a degree makes that process faster and easier SOMETIMES. and if you wana make it in the Software and IT field than go with CS

>>7675802
>Those Comp-Sci programs are shit. Every CS student should AT LEAST take Linear Algebra, Calc II, Physics, and Discreet Math.
>Hardcore CS majors should be taking Curves and Surfaces, Quaternions, Splines, Advanced Linear Algebra, Thermodynamics, etc.

wow thats literally fucking restarted. why not require all dance majors to take anatomy and physiology at that? oh wait a fucking yoga instructor needs to know shit they will never need to use for an extra $3000 in classes they dont need to take while making $20k a year.

thank god you autist are contained to your books and stay away from real people.

>>7675370
Switching majors won't help.

Just kill yourself right now if you can't pass linear algebra.