/sci/ - Science & Math

>>7402210
You're confusing sex with gender.

>>7402217
This sums up all the debate

>>7402344
It's why the alphabet soup has stopped calling them transsexuals or transgenders and is instead just saying trans.

>>7402217
Please stop it with the sex vs gender thing.

>>7402210
I don't know if people can become a different gender, and frankly I will never devote serious thought to it. It's just a social label and it can change so there's no point trying to pander or exclude anything. People can call themselves whatever gender they want.

However saying you're now a different sex is utterly impossible. Your chromosomes do not lie, and don't change because you cut your dick off. Nobody changes their sex, it's just not possible.

>>7402356
Stop being ignorant on a science board.

>>7402210

>not understanding the difference between sex and gender

>>7402390
>stop rejecting pseudoscience

>>7402395

Are you implying that gender is not socially constructed?

>>7402210
not erxactly, there is a gene in the Y chromosone that creates "maleness" called SRY. It is possible that even if you have this gene but it is innactive then you will not be a male. Other factors also include gene expression ie: how much of a gene is turned "on", for example in dalmation dogs the amount of gene expression accounts for how many spots they have and how their fur looks.

>>7402210
>Did high school lie to me?

>>7402398
Of course. Socially assigned traits like carrying a purse or wearing a dress are biologically rooted.

>>7402413
Are you sure? Because I distinctly remember being humiliated for taking in interest in girls' interests

whoa who is that semen demon

>>7402413

Biologically rooted -> Sex. Sex -> Modulated by Environmental Factors -> Gender???

>>7402424
Morrigan la Faye

Nobody cares what you call yourself.

Male and female are scientific terms. If you have a reproductive organ that produces sperms, you are a male. If you have ovaries and can give birth, you are a female.

End of story.

>>7402442
Ok so what if you don't have testicles or a uterus?

>>7402446
Then you are a mutant.

>>7402446

You wouldn't live very long. Humans like to purge outliers from the gene pool.

>>7402449
So your humanity is defined not by what you do, but by what you do not possess?

>>7402454
> Humans like to purge outliers from the gene pool.
you mean nature.

>>7402454
>Humans
You consider yourself a human, do you?
Why is that?

>>7402457
> your humanity
what the fuck is that even mean? you mean your sex ? your sex is defined by your genitals

>>7402457
Not him, but you think what you call yourself is what you do?

>>7402430
i meant the one in the OP

>>7402420
I was being sarcastic. I didn't do a good job apparently.

>>7402427
Gender is a system of roles and rules created by society with a basis on physical sex. Gender is absolutely a social construct that has evolved along with human civilization.

When a female human is born, she is told by members of her species that she is a girl, our label for young female. As this girl observes women and girls around her, she learns that women wear dresses, keep their hair long, and sit with their legs closed and usually conforms to this behavior. A male child observes men and emulates them as well. (This concept is called gender identity by the way). These behaviors are not actually rooted in biology, long hair is seen as masculine in many cultures, many cultures never teach girls to sit with their legs closed, etc. This is what gender is, the complete package of what sex is 'supposed' to be, as perceived either on a societal or individual level. It's subjective, and cultural.

Sex is the actual distinction of male and female on a biological basis. You can actually be male and a woman, or female and a man, either due to an intersex condition. For example you can be born appearing externally as one sex, being raised as the gender you physically appear to be and living your life without ever knowing of your chromosomes (which is not as uncommon as you might believe), or you can be transgender, in which someone who is born one sex consciously lives their life as close to the role of the opposite sex as they can.

Pic related, these people were born biologically male, but appear as females complete with functioning but infertile female sex organs, and did not discover their conditions until adulthood.

>>7402470
You are what you do

Your past has no value or substance beyond that which you assign it

>>7402463
What separates man from beast?

Intelligence? a capacity for emotional thought and the ability to communicate with written language?

Would you consider Gorillas human?

>>7402480
>I was being sarcastic. I didn't do a good job apparently.
Holy Hel you should just stop

>>7402483
the main difference between humans and gorillas is that humans came into existence by fusing gorilla and alien dna. thats the only reason we have disproportionally higher intelligence and linguistic abilities compared to any other animal.
The only animal that had the opportunity to develop such a brain over a long time was dinosaurs and now they are reduced to fucking birds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ditHUfyj0Y4

>>7402497
>reduced to fucking birds
Retard alert

>>7402483
>Would you consider Gorillas human?

I am on sci right?

>>7402480

>I was being sarcastic. I didn't do a good job apparently.

That you did not.

>>7402508
>humans came into existence by fusing gorilla and alien dna.

There's no way I'm on sci.

>>7402505
i liked how you skipped the entire part where i mentioned alien dnas

>>7402512

How many people are actually serious about this?
I'm lucky to have never met someone like this in my entire life.

Is it just such a giant joke everybody finds so hilarious that they continue bringing it up?

>>7402512
Do you have a better explaination ?

>>7402480
The only answer that properly encapsulates everything we're able to observe about the actuality of self experience.

Where do genetically mediated factors end, and our behaviors begin, how do they relate? We don't know. Merely by existing you're made unable to truly know, whether indoctrinated into a culture or not. End of story.

>>7402519

>I'm lucky to have never met someone like this in my entire life.

You are very lucky indeed to have been spared this long.

>>7402516
Your opinion on birds is willfully and grossly ignorant

The rest was like listening to a public school teacher argue about American history

>>7402519
>giant

ITT: my psychological disorders determine the totality of a term even though that term includes physical characteristics

I identify as a choral. That doesn't mean I can just cum on everything at a certain time of year and people should be accepting of that.

>>7402210
What about androgen insensitivity or chromosome abnormalities like Klinefelter's

>>7402457
You would still be a human, just a mutated biologically dysfunctional human. In the same way babies that are born with cleft lips or without a jaw or something.

Gender and sex are social constructs influenced by appearance and mien which is the result of genetics. I include sex because one can be born with a female body but male chromosomes. Considering that, it's not a stretch to conclude that people can be whatever gender and sex they decide to have surgery to become. However all the people who decide to do so are insane so I'm not sure how valid their choices are.

>>7402700
If wanting to be pretty is insane, are all women insane? If wanting to be strong is insane, are all men insane?

Why is it so weird for people to want to be the opposite sex? Are the advantages of each sex not obvious? Why can we as a species explore, mold and modify the planet to our liking, but not ourselves?

>>7402761
It's understandable to want to be the opposite sex, but it is literally impossible to accomplish so attempting it is a sign of insanity. At best, they can change their gender. Sex is immutable.

>>7402799
This.

Wanting to fly like a birdie does not legitimize jumping off the roof of a tall building to try and imitate flight.

>>7402700
>insane
Using the updated DSM for that diagnosis or pulling it out of your uncomfortably tight b-hole?

cmon op tell us who the fucking girl is

>>7402803
A terrible comparison. Having breasts or facial hair isn't comparable to self-destructive or suicidal behavior. There is no legitimate reason why one gender can be allowed to have certain physical traits or social behaviors while another gender shouldn't. Insanity itself is a terribly unscientific term, a vague catch-all. As men of science, do you not question why anomalies like this exist? Are you not drawn to do even the faintest bit of research into why people do these things, or how long this phenomenon has been known? Instead you just declare what you don't understand as incomprehensible.

>>7402825
That a particular insanity has a common cause and follows a predictable path makes it no less an insanity does it really?

Don't sex reassignments often make one infertile? That sounds pretty self destructive.

>>7402831
You still haven' produced an argument about how a trans person is insane. Homeless dude smearing shit on the walls singing backstreet boys is insane. Norman Bates is insane. Dude becoming a chick is just a dude becoming a chick, they're still coherent and capable of responsible decision making.

>>7402831
Would you consider a voluntary vasectomy as self-destructive? Such a procedure is no more self-destructive than the simple conscious decision not to have children. There are as many benefits to having children as there are to not having children, both of these options are valid choices, and you certainly wouldn't call one of these choices self-destructive would you?

>>7402839
Would you agree that a man who thinks he's actually a wolf is insane? As in thinks he's the animal species Canis Lupus.

How about a person who thinks he is the historical figure Napoleon?

A male who thinks his sex is female, or a female who thinks their sex is male is the same sort of thing. It's not the same thing as somebody who merely puts on an act for personal gain, such as Joan of Arc, though.

>>7402839
Dudes cannot become chicks though.
To think that because you've cut off your dick and taken oestrogen and you are now a female is insane. God damn it.

>>7402852
Yes I would agree that a man who thinks he is a wolf is insane. I would also agree that any person who thinks s/he is Napoleon is not right in the head.
>>7402854
Again, sex=/= gender
Now how is that point relevant to my original question?

>>7402842
>Would you consider a voluntary vasectomy as self-destructive? Such a procedure is no more self-destructive than the simple conscious decision not to have children.
Well in some sense it can be self destructive yeah.

The decision to not have children is arguably one you can re-neg on with ease at any time.

>>7402861
>Yes I would agree that a man who thinks he is a wolf is insane. I would also agree that any person who thinks s/he is Napoleon is not right in the head.
Doesn't address the last line at all.

>>7402210
sex chromosome defines sex. in english gender has a double meaning where in most other languages sex and gender are different things.

>>7402852
The term you are thinking of is delusion, an error of perception in the face of contradictory evidence. While present in a number of mental illnesses, having a mental illness is not a prerequisite for having a delusional belief.

Transsexualism is caused by a disparity of gender identity (see >>7402480) and biological sex. Most transsexuals are well aware (if not painfully so) of their birth sex and most often there is no delusional belief about what sex they were assigned at birth. However, gender identity is a fixed mental state that solidifies around the age of three (sometimes as late as age six however) and much like sexual orientation, cannot be changed or consciously rewritten. This is what causes someone to "feel" (self-perception) like the opposite sex.

I approve of gender queerism and all that bollocks. It will mean that the genes that survive into the future generations are that of normal people, who don't think that they are helicopters that need custom pronouns like xim/xam/xem's.
Plus, when Eurabia becomes a thing, based musbros will uh, "clean up" our mess :^)

>>7402880
Genes aren't going to mean much in the next century. Gene therapy and genetic engineering are going to be the norm relatively soon, passing down genetics is going to be a thing of the past.

>>7402884
do you really believe that? that recent thing in China with manipulating a single gene in a nonviable embryo, that was the furthest we've come in human testing. We're a long long way away from this designer baby fantasy people have in their heads

>>7402865
meant to put in >Now how is that point relevant to my original question?
in the first one, not the second.
Basically, why is being transgender make one insane?
Because insane means completely lacking an ability to think coherently or rationally and also means the person can be a serious danger, so if you're calling someone something that would justify putting them in a psychiatric treatment center forever, please explain why.

>>7402873
Wait so their brain makes them feel like they are a social construct (gender)?

Are you saying gender is a biological reality?
Feminists I think would want a word with you.

>>7402480
See here's where this gender stuff doesn't make sense to me: on the one hand, everyone who thinks GRS is a good idea argues that gender is socially constructed and not rooted in sex. Then come in the trannies and say "I'm a dude, but my gender is female, so I want my sex to be female as well." Now if gender isn't rooted in sex, why would the sex have to be changed to be in accordance with the gender, if gender doesn't depend on sex?

>>7402900
Gender is a social construct. Sex is the foundation. It's really that simple.

>>7402900
>>7402904
but the first guy has a point, why do they care about society's idea of gender when by their own admission its just a 'construct'? they go hurr durr society doesn't define my gender rage against the machine!!! but then they turn around and play into society's ideas of what a man or a woman is

>>7402904
so now gender is biologically predicated?

delusions we treat properly:
>anorexia
>schizophrenia
>[your favourite mental illness here]

delusions we don't treat properly:
>transgenderism
>transracialism

Question for everyone, when was the last time you saw an extremely manly man say he was a actually a woman? Or vice versa with an extremely feminine female?

>>7402442
>Nobody cares what you call yourself.

Well now that's just an absurd thing to say. Obviously many many people are very very upset about what others call themselves.

>>7402913
That's.... actually an interesting question if you take out the dickish undertone. Pretty sure 4chan has an /LGBT/ group thingy if you want to ask there, just try not to be all "why do fags like cocks?"

>>7402919
>calling schizophrenia a delusion.
Ignorant-ponce.bmp

>>7402913
also, if gender is socially constructed, then why would the transsexuals expect society to apply the construct to them when they clearly dont fit the mold? or in other words, why would it be unacceptable to not accept mtfs as female, if "female" is a social construct? why would those who apply the construct have to bow to the others bending of it?

>>7402917
This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

Here's a totally made up example.

Let's say some ancient tribal leader thinks long hair is attractive. He is heterosexual, so he finds long hair on women attractive .He instructs his daughters to keep their hair long and has his fellow tribesmen do the same for their daughters. However his own long hair gets in his face during battle, and he cuts it off. He then decrees that real warriors should not have long hair as it is impractical, and orders his men to cut their hair as well. In time, long hair is reinforced in this village as a decidedly female trait, while short hair is considered a male trait. Now let's pretend a thousand years passes and now a medieval city resides where this village once was. The tradition of instructing girls to have long hair has been passed down and remains. However, the male nobility begin to grow out their hair longer to contrast against the short hair of the male peasants. Soon the trend continues and peasant women begin to have their hair cut short as well, so now long hair is no longer a gendered trait by a trait of status. Now men and women are separated and distinguished by different traits.

This is what people mean by the phrase 'gender is a social construct'. Gender is the spectrum of characteristics that define and separate the perception of male and female. Biology separates them with primary sexual characteristics (the penis and vagina), but these are typically hidden from view. Secondary sexual characteristics (breasts, body hair, bone structure) develop during puberty and further distinguish sex, however, secondary sexual characteristics have a massive range of variance found in both sexes (some women naturally are as hairy or hairier than the average man, some men naturally have feminine hips or breasts). Social traits further separate the two groups. Biology doesn't gravitate women to the color pink and men to the color blue, it's social evolution.

>>7402921
pic

>>7402966
and how does this answer >>7402900
?

>>7402931
no. we're upset that they keep shoving their bullshit down our throats. do whatever the hell you want. mangle your own body through crazy expensive surgeries because you're that pathetic but don't expect me to support or approve and certainly don't expect my tax dollars to pay for it

>>7402966
Well, now I gotta see the reverse.

>>7402981
>don't expect my tax dollars to pay for it
wait what now? this stuff is state-sponsored? can i apply for state sponsorship for my next pc because that's how i entertain myself?

The dichotomy between sex vs gender is retarded. Men on average have higher testosterone making them gravitate more towards physical tasks and interests. Testosterone is also likely responsible for higher visual spatial IQ and other psychological traits that would make them gravitate more towards engineering and such. This is just an extension of the nature vs nurture "debate" which is another ridiculous dichotomy. Nurture is just an extension of nature and sometimes but rarely vice versa any transfags that says otherwise is delusional.

>>7402420
as you should be

>>7402449
>wisdom

>>7402458
either or really

>>7402462
Because that's our classification in the animal kingdom?

>>7402483
self-awareness and such. I don't see any gorillas with video blogs...
(although i would totally subscribe)

>>7402761
jenner still has a cock. so as far as i'm concerned he's a drag queen at best.

>>7402821
2nd

>>7402989

>>7402825
Because they're fucking stupid and have no self-esteem. Point blank period

>>7402839
No they aren't. Dude cutting off his junk to turn it into a deformed mangina and getting all kinds of surgery and hormones to try and be something they aren't is FUCKING INSANE.

>>7402896
he already gave you a damn list. piss off

>>7403030
Men with low testosterone can choose to have hormones injected into them for the desired benefits. Women with low estrogen (especially menopausal) can choose to have estrogen given to them for the benefits. So why can't males and females choose to receive the alternative hormone for the benefits they provide? If you give a male estrogen, his skin becomes softer and cleaner and breasts develop naturally. If you give a female testosterone they will grow larger, stronger muscles and develop a deeper, broader voice. Why shouldn't we as humans be able to choose how we physically develop if it is well within our means and not detrimental to those around us?

What makes gender reassignment surgery less valid than any other cosmetic surgery?

>>7403030
you're right it is insane. Its called "Gender Disphoria" and is a medical condition, the only cure being making the person feel most comfortable in their own skin. If becoming the opposite gender makes them feel more comfortable, so be it, who the fuck are you fags to say anything different? I'm just as grossed out about the mangina thing as you are but do you really think by acting the way your acting we can solve anything? I mean its obvious you're young, probably to young to use this website, but you have to try and act much older to try and fit in here, see how it doesnt work like that? Only until you are actually older will you be able to feel comfortable talking to other adults and not have to try so hard. Get the analogy?

>>7402991
I'm sure it will be eventually. Everyone wants everyone else to pay for their shit

>>7402981

Yeah, see, it clearly bothers you a lot.

>my tax dollars

Huh?

>>7403043
I'm 27 fuckass. And my care mainly stems from their demand for me to accept it. You can't make everyone accept your choices, that's easy as shit to understand. Something like this? I can't even wrap my head around it. I've never been worried about fitting in. I'm not a loser with no sense of self and could give 2 shits about what society thinks about my choices. That being said, I don't expect everyone to conform to my whims either.

>>7403066
>im 27
>fuckass
riiiiiiight.
go to bed, anon

>>7403066
No one is making you accept anything. You look like an insecure fuck when you go around talking the way you do. Especially if you really are 27, i have some bad news for you kiddo but you got aspergers cause no normal 27 year olds act like you do lol

>>7403066
Careful with that edge brah

>>7403066
honestly how is it productive to say 'eww manginas!!!!11'?

Yeah we all fucking agree, it's disgusting, let's leave it at that instead of going full 'durr durr we're being oppressed, I dun have to accept it'.

Just fucking get on with your life anon. It's nothing to do with you

>>7403066
>I've never been worried about fitting in
>IM 27 I SWEAR I SWEAR

>>7403070
>>7403070
Kiss my ass you fairy fuck. Just because you're still in grade school doesn't mean the rest of us are too. I've got a potty mouth, wooo fuckin hoo. Stupid people piss me off is all. This conversation is fucking stupid. No one is going to change anyone else's mind so why don't we all just stfu and let this shit die.

>>7403066
It's less 'demanding you accept it' than demanding you don't be a total twat about it. Nobody is asking you to campaign for transexual rights, calm down you autist

>>7403035
Yes, an irrelevant list of comparisons between gender reassignment and someone thinking they're a unicorn.

>>7403085

>>7403036
>not detrimental to those around us
it is detrimental, its literally killing civilization. first family started hurting because of divorce, abortion and the massive rise in promiscuity they enabled. now came the homosexuals who had their sterile partnerships accepted as equally worthy of support as heterosexual marriage, which is the seed of society. now the trannies are coming in in stride and are pushing hard for their odd sort of treatment of their deviations to be accepted not only as psychologically sound, but as a praiseworthy and healthy way of life. this is just another vehement reinforcement of the notion that fulfilling your every desire should be your primary goal in life, which is currently still subsidized by strip mining the planet for material wealth, and despite that it still managed to set most wealthy nations on the path to self destruction by extremely low birth rates. the way the whole "you need to care about yourself and nobody gonna tell you what to do" is going, the gun toting texan shooting anyone who sets as much as a toe on his property will be seen not as someone without regard for human life, but as a meek pacifist who barely cares for what belongs to him. oh, and of course within 10 generations, there might be left as little as 2% of the population of europe.

>>7403084
>>7403076

When you kids get out of grade school and into the real world, you'll understand my rage. Until then, y'all have fun in fantasy land.

>>7403082
By saying that, you've shown you're not old enough for this site.

>>7403085
>This mad
>2015
Dude, foreal?

>>7403093
Homosexuality is older than civilization. Homosexuals are also not sterile, there is nothing stopping a homosexual from having biological children. There is also no shortage of humans capable of reproduction, LGBT people account for less than 1% of the population. Transsexuals have been around at least as long as recorded history as well.

>>7402966
You're saying that people impose plenty of cultural bs on sex and call it gender but you are ignoring the differences in male and female brains, hence nature. Therefore a men and women interact with culture differently. It's not a great stretch to conclude that cultural gender differences such as clothing and hairstyles are extensions of the biological differences.

>>7403043
>you must be underaged b&
>not your choice to make
What are you even doing here? Your poor arguments would be better suited to facebook. I doubt that the best treatment for any kind of disphoria is indulgence and encouraging the patient to take expensive, irreversible surgery. But hey, HRT etc. probably makes mad dosh so what do I know? Transsexuals have delusions about what being the other gender is like. Why should we as a society allow them to act on their delusions?

>>7403088
Ok look I'm no Christian, but I'm going to give you the perfect example. The same group of people praising jenner for being a crossdresser (i'm sorry, transgender) are the same group that hounded tebow for saying he was christian and thanking god and shit. My point being, everyone is an narcissistic ass.

>>7403093
what in the fuck is all this? edgy neo-con shit right here.

How is taking LGBT rights seriously 'killing society'? How does them having a legally recognised marriage/family devalue yours?

You sound like a proper godfag m8, I'm not gonna lie.
>muh family
>deviations
>fulfilling desires is a bad thing
>gun toting texans are a good moral standard
>muh oppresshun

>>7403093
You reaaaaally stretched that one out going from "fags ruining this country" to "capitalism will be the undoing of human existence."
Gays have been around forever, they probably would have destroyed us well before our population reached 7 billion and life expectancy quadrupled if you're right.
Think this conversation is getting a bit out of hand.

>>7403099
>It's not a great stretch to conclude that cultural gender differences such as clothing and hairstyles are extensions of the biological differences.
Except this is a fucking science board and you don't just come to random conclusions without evidence. It's fact that cultural gender differences are completely fabricated traditions, there are obvious contradictions between cultures. Makeup, theater and modeling were once exclusive domains of men in the western world, whereas now they are associated with women. Blue is seen as male and pink as female, whereas in some cultures pink is considered a masculine, warrior's color by it's association with blood.

>>7403100
that was a retarded example, I have no idea what point you're trying to make. You're saying that people who are more tolerant of transexuals tend to be critical of religion? You fucking genius. What's your point? Why is this relevant?

>>7403099
Hi are you in the medical profession? If not how the fuck do you know so much about being transsexual?
Can we get a medfag in on this conversation please?

>>7403118
Transsexual here. What do you want to know?

>>7403096
You bet your sweet ass.

>>7403098
>>7403108
>>7403109
what changed is that in most of recorded history, gays and transsexuals were not accepted in wider society, and certainly not sponsored by the government. now they are, and the reason is that the idea of what is and should be supported by the state has changed. it used to be society. now it's the self. isn't the main reason people were for gay marriage "i don't harm you", not "we don't harm society"?

>>7403121
will you explain to us from a scientific standpoint why you felt the way you did, and why making the transition made you a more functioning member of society?

>>7403115
HOW'S THAT EXAMPLE RETARDED RETARD?
Why should anyone show anyone respect when they can't show any respect themselves?
It's fucking hypocritical.

>>7403127
you think that being gay will somehow become more popular because it's accepted and people aren't stoned to death for it nowadays? You really think enough people will just 'decide' to be gay to make our whole species collapse?

>being this delusional
>2015

>>7403127
Bitch fuck you have you ever lived in the same neighborhood as gay people? Nicest fucking neighborhoods(not so nice on blacks)
They get really into HOA's and shit so they make sure everyones lawn is mowed, no above ground sprinklers, no weeds all that shit
and they really do their part.
Also, lots of gay dudes go around fixing up houses and shit to turn them around for a profit cause their good at interior design. THEY ARE LITERALLY TAKING SHIT AND MAKING IT GLITTER
what are you doing with your life anon?

>>7403121
female to male, or male to female.

Would you tell someone you were considering being intimate with straight up that you were trans?

And (not trying to be a dick) but why does it matter what body you have if you knew in your heart or mind or whatever that you were the opposite sex. Why go through all this bullshit for a barbie facade?

>>7403134
only kids point out the year. We're all well aware of the time thank you.
And believe it or not, there's a LOT of gays in my area that are gay specifically for the statement itself. Or this chick that says she's lesbian this week but she'll ride my dick next week... I'm not saying homosexuality isn't legitimate, it is. It's just that the bulk of people are so fucking stupid...

>>7403127
Dude, the same argument was made of miscegenation. 1-2% of the population being allowed to legally marry has zero consequence on "the fabric of society."

Honestly guys i wish i was gay. Do you realize how much money a two-man marriage would make? Jesus christ imagine how much money you'd have if every date you went on both people would pay 50% and you would never buy someone a drink
gays will eventually overcome us
if you cant beat em, join em
lol

>>7403140
Homeowner's association... Never have I met a member I didn't want killed...

>>7403154
>there are a lot of gays in my area that are gay specifically for the statement itself
This doesn't happen. It really doesn't. Dudebros don't just decide "y'know what I'm not getting enough attention, let me pretend to be gay so I can ruin any chance of a family and partners of the same gender to keep up this facade".

They're probably just gay. Seriously, I know that might scare you, but it's super rare for someone to 'be gay for the statement' or whatever that bullshit you said was.

>homosexuality is legitimate

ok

>it's just that the bulk of people are so fucking stupid

what does this have to do with anything? yes, lots of people are stupid..... and?

>>7403154
>are gay specifically for the statement itself
you are no true scotsman unless you get your ass rammed for what you believe in

>>7403128
At age three I began to began to feel that there was something wrong about my body and that I was 'supposed' to be a girl. At age four my mother began to notice my feelings and would try to talk me out of them whenever I brought them up. I quickly learned to hide these feelings, though on occasion I would speak to my pastor about them (I grew up in a very religious, very conservative Christian household). At age eleven I started to notice changes in puberty and I began to experience childhood depression. Around this time, my mother arranged for me to attend a now defunct "gay conversion" style summer camp, which although very traumatic, was completely unsuccessful in ridding me of my feelings. At age 15 I was disowned from my family and forced out on my own. I was taken in by a friends family which allowed me to complete my high school diploma with relatively good grades. During this time, I began to see a school therapist, who eventually recommended me to another therapist that specializes in gender issues. Both therapists agreed that I have gender dysphoria, to which I sought treatment through transition (which is unfortunately, the only known method of increasing the quality of life for a transsexual). Now I'm an engineering student.

As far as the feelings themselves, I don't feel comfortable when people view me as or treat me as a boy or man. It arouses an irrational sensation of wrongness, my immediate thought is that they're mistaken, but then I am hit with the realization that they are in fact correct, and I am filled with disheartenment. But when people treat me as a woman, I don't think anything of it, it just feels natural. Life was very, very stressful in the awkward phase of appearing between genders, but now that I have been on hormone therapy for a decent period of time and have grown better at passing for a female, life is more comfortable for me, and I feel better about not making those around me uncomfortable.

>>7403178
Yea it fucking does happen. More than your prissy ass will admit. A year from now they'll be tired of it and go back to straight, or be bi.

The bulk of people are stupid and do shit for statement's sakes. Duh.

>>7403108
I think the point he's getting at is that the acceptance of gay and trans people will lead to family units of kinds hitherto unseen in the West. He's concerned that the traditional, successful heterosexual family unit will become less common and it could wreak havoc on society.

I'm not conservative but I see where he's coming from. Gay and trans couples may largely be taken out of the reproductive pool. Gay homes will not teach heterosexual children what a healthy heterosexual relationship looks like nor about adults of the opposite sex to their parents. There's a similar situation now: children of single mothers have extremely limited interaction with adult men. The result is that the boys grow up without knowing how men act or interact and the girls are uneasy around men and can't relate to them. They are essentially missing a gender role.

>>7403183
Describe the men in your life.

>>7403187
>He's concerned that the traditional, successful heterosexual family unit will become less common and it could wreak havoc on society.

But this isn't true. In the past, homosexuals were just not in family units, but they weren't contributing to the strength of the 'traditional' family either. Now, they just have their own family unit, instead of what is was before.

How does this make the traditional family unit 'less common'? I don't follow.

People like to assume every behavior associated with genders is completely socially constructed, when a good amount of them arise from genetic disposition and different behaviors that arise from being sexual dimorphic.

>>7403184
Come on man, he wasn't an ass about it. I agree in a sense, people do things for the 'rebel status'. However, now that homosexual marriage is legal in the states, a lot of the 'statement gays' as i call them should start to disappear. (Doing shit loses it appeal to kids once it's legal)

Now we just need to legalize Marijuana... I bet your prissy ass would calm down a bit.

>>7403183
Awesome fucking story. I would fuck you hard. and i'm a 8/10 when I shave.

seriously though good for you anon, and fuck your parents and their misguided religious bullshit.

>>7403206
Goddamn fuck you. It's not religious bullshit to shun failed offspring, like every other species does it and we're the only ones with religion.

>>7403148
Male to female.

>Would you tell someone you were considering being intimate with straight up that you were trans?
Of course. To do so otherwise would be irresponsible, both for their feelings and my physical safety.

>And (not trying to be a dick) but why does it matter what body you have if you knew in your heart or mind or whatever that you were the opposite sex. Why go through all this bullshit for a barbie facade?
To someone without gender dysphoria, it's difficult to understand the motivation. Most people fit some or most of the stereotypes of their gender without every trying to. For most people, if they had been born the opposite sex, they would conform to that sex just the same without every questioning it. But for an extremely small, rare subset of people, it matters greatly. Even then, most people never question their gender identity because it is so solidified. Assuming you are a man, if someone held the door open for you to enter a store and said "Here you are, ma'am" you would be confused or probably think they're joking. If you have gender dysphoria, you have that same reaction of confusion, only to reflect on yourself and realize that they are correct. You then wonder why you default to seeing yourself as the opposite sex, why you so comfortable identify as that sex and wonder why not being that sex causes so much distress to you. It's an irrational, compelling feeling. A cruder comparison: if you woke up without your arms tomorrow, you would wonder why you didn't have them, and as time continued you would feel internal pain for not having them. You would lament all the things you felt you couldn't do without them. Transsexualism feels somewhat similar.

Why do we see less gender identity in countries with strict gender roles? It's almost like gender roles are an evolutionary trait not a social construct.

>>7403210
See that? You're deluded into thinking the anon above was "failed" when in reality she wasnt, she just wasnt the perceived norm.
You are a sheep and you probably always will be because you cling to these ridiculous notions of "failed offspring" and thats not even true because i would consider a severely retarded kid "failed" before i would consider a transgender person "failed"
its not like her fucking legs were broken. Fuck you dude i hope you never have kids.

>>7403221
>I'm going to tell other organisms what their reproductive strategy should be and what they should consider offspring worth spending resources to raise
Well I'm sure that's totally selflessly motivated.

>>7403224
When did i say what his reproductive strategy should be? I just explained why he was deluded as fuck to say its okay to completely traumatize someone for the rest of their life because theyre different
fucking robot

>>7403203
It is true. In the past, when homosexuality was a gaolable offense many gays would marry and have families to avoid the law. Now that they don't have to hide those convenient hetero families will not be.

Would it not make sense to have more gender identity problems when there really is a mixture of gender roles now? More women are working and more men stay at home or participate in formerly women only things. It's almost like after dong something that is predominantly done by the opposite sex you have gender identity problems.

>>7403221
>You're deluded into thinking the anon above was "failed" when in reality she wasnt

Gender dysphoria is in fact a mental deficiency. Now I'm not saying the way this person's parents reacted was correct or rational in any way, but gender dysphoria is, in and of itself, a problem which produces irrational thinking in the afflicted persons.

>>7403231
I don't even browse r9k.

At least I didn't say the parents should eat you like a cat might to reclaim the wasted nutrients.

Are humans the only living things capable of being transgender?

>>7403237
One in four adults−approximately 61.5 million Americans−experiences mental illness in a given year
Should we just drop 61.5 million people because theyre "failed" because of their mental deficiencies?

>>7403244
He said mental deficiency, which is more on par with a retardation in meaning if I'm not mistaken than having a case of the sads.

>>7403235
ok, let's assume that you're right (you are, but I doubt the number of fake heterosexuals had any real impact on the population at large).

Is it better to have people suppress their true sexuality like that? It really wouldn't make that much difference to the population, and it would be at the cost of basic human rights.

>>7403240
Some amphibians can spontaneous switch sexes.
Frogs for instance.
This is actually well known as it was a plot point in one of the greatest selling movies of all time.
>No, it's not a made up concept for the film

>>7403210
truth. I feel like we should do the spartan thing and huck stupid babehs off a cliff.

>>7403238
>>I'm going to tell other organisms what their reproductive strategy should be and what they should consider offspring worth spending resources to raise
^ That is what made me call you a robot, nothing to do with /r9k/ lol
i was just like
who the fuck even thinks like that
>i must require the greatest offspring by using the best reproductive strategy to spend the least amount of resources on an offspring
does anyone love you?

>>7403244
Are you unable to read or did you not notice that I didn't condone 'dropping' people because of mental deficiencies.

>>7403248
Are you seriously fucking conflating depression with sadness?

>>7403237
irrational thinking with respect to their biological sex, yes. It doesn't have an effect on their thinking in any other way...

>>7403200
My father was a captain in the united states army before he died when I was 15. During his time in the military, he also served in delta force, a special forces group. Due to his service, we moved frequently. I had a good mix of male and female friends wherever I lived.

>>7403240
It's doubtful that any other species experiences the conscious longing to be the opposite sex, but there are many species with the capability to change their sexual role during the course of their life. There are also species in which rare individuals will mimic the opposite sex, sometimes as a mating strategy, sometimes for protection or sometimes in submission to more dominant males. Homosexuality is well documented in other animals.

>>7403259
Im the person you didnt cuss at.
You're right i didnt read it thoroughly enough

>>7403215
Respect. I wish you well in your endeavors.

>>7403237
That's not correct.
Not all mental illness is a mental deficiency, it can be simply an emotional issue that impedes social or personal functioning.
There are plenty of people that are mentally ill that are not intellectual deficient in any way.
That is an old stigma that rolls off of the reductio ad absurdem train and into thought-terminating cliche station.

Please stop.
You're providing misinformation.
Subjective emotional views are not the same as objective intellectual correctness.

If people were made to bad about not liking X in and X obsessed environment, does that mean they're stupid? No.

>>7403259
>Are you seriously fucking conflating depression with sadness?
I'll leave that to your discretion.

>>7403256
Oh right. I hear people call them robots anyway. Well, I mean nobody really thinks like that. Cats don't think 'well i need is blood for iron because iron' they just think 'ooh tasty nom nom nom'. Being able to see beyond that is sort of an abstract reasoning task, you know.

>>7403255
Well I.. Mm. Fair enough I spose. I'm sure each side has its benefits, but to claim either is completely wrong is incorrect.

>>7403244
yes. i'm not seeing the confusion here.

>>7403269
Gender is not a subjective emotional view, though. If you're born as one gender but can't accept it, and experience depression over your identity because of it, then your brain is malfunctioning.

>>7403263
do you have a boyfriend or love interest?

>>7403263
Do you find it fucked up that the only times I've been able to understand/humanize trans people is either by watching John Oliver or browsing 4chan? Cuz I do.

>>7403280
so many edges, multiple lacerations

>>7403263
Since you're anonymous ill ask. Did you get the surgery that turns your penis into a vagina? Do you feel pleasure when getting fucked in it or is it completely cosmetic? I've always wondered that

>>7403274
I was kidding of course. I would've been hucked off a cliff as a baby for christ sake!

>>7403281
>Gender is not a subjective emotional view, though.
THAT is personal incredulity and personal induction and therefore automatically wrong.

People can be brought up to have all SORTS of feelings about gender and gender roles, and how they're SUPPOSED to feel about them.

That can cause depression if people aren't allowed to explore the concept without being bullied or shamed.

How can you be so oblivious, heartless, ignorant and anti-scientific!

Close the browser and step outside.
People have feelings about EVERYTHING.

>>7403249
>It really wouldn't make that much difference to the population
I think it will make a huge difference. I mentioned one of the reasons before - children growing up with limited socialisation to the gender opposite to their parents. Another is the fact that gay people are more prone to violence against their partner and gay men in particular have higher rates of pederasty. Society could have a generation of children who are improperly socialised and witnesses or victims of abuse. I'd like to make clear that I'm not anti-gay but I would like to see more research done on how affects the development of children. I focus on children and family so much because I believe that they are the basic machine for propagating society. So shit families will cause a shit society in a few generations.

By no means am I saying that gays should suppress their sexuality, I'm apprehensive about the effects of them raising children.

>>7403263
I take it your father wasn't around much.

>>7403309
My father was never around and I'm not transgender you fuck
Sounds like your dad beat you too hard.
Either that or you love the taste of his salty dick in your mouth

>>7403315
hehehe anon is proud of himself for this post, look at this guy, such an ebin memer

>>7403315
What?
Weren't you the transposter? That's what the comment tree looks like to me, and I'm not the guy to whom you are replying.

>>7403323
No I'm not the transposter, i was just saying that her dad not being around doesnt have a DIRECT correlation between it cause im not transgender. Just because i replied to him replying to someone else doesnt mean im the person he originally replied to.

>>7403323
>werent you the transposter
you realized you did the same thing he did, meaning if using the same logic you would be the person he was replying to. Just because he didnt say "im not the transposter" before his post doesnt mean he is the transposter. Get your head out of your ass

>>7402210
Gender has moved away from its original meaning. Gender is now the cultural word that describes how one "Feels"

>>7403282
>do you have a boyfriend or love interest?
Veering off topic here but... I'm shy, anon... Like most transsexuals I have low self-esteem. It's difficult for me to think about romantic relationships because I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable or be a burden on someone. I often think about what it would be like for someone to have to explain my situation to their parents and it makes me feel discouraged.

>>7403283
Not at all. It's a complex and alienating issue, and one that is often completely foreign to those who don't experience it. It's difficult to explain transsexualism to people, it's difficult for people to understand that explanation, and even then people will often ignore the facts or evidence and go with their own conclusions.

>>7403296
I have not had any surgeries. I don't plan on having any, and even I wanted to, it's unlikely that I would be able to afford any in the foreseeable future. While I would like to be an anatomically correct female, the current medical state of sex reassignment surgery for male-to-female transsexuals is not in line with what I want. It doesn't seem worth it to me.

>>7403309
Actually he was around for most of my childhood. There were some periods where he was absent, but usually never longer than a few months. However, there was a period in which he was absent for a year while stationed in South America.

>>7403326
Well you probably should have specified that in answering the question he asked -of that particular person- lol.

>>7403330
Wut? I specified I wasn't that person so as to avoid the confusion of misdirected conversation. It's not the same at all. Baka!

>>7403287
so much summerfag. No one who's balls have descended says edgy like you twats.

>>7402839
Shit smearing is a rational choice

>>7403335
i was >>7403296
I just looked it up anon and just letting you know online it says if you get an experienced doctor you can orgasm like a girl and theyll even construct a clit for you that feels good
:D:D:D THIS IS SO INTERESTING

>>7403309
>children growing up with limited socialisation to the gender opposite to their parents

How is this? Unless they are isolated from society and homeschooled, they are going to experience the other gender. Their parents aren't going to deprive them of this vital experience, unless as I said they are hidden from society. Which is bad regardless of the genders of the parents.

>>7403326
THE ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT THE EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE!

ITT: psyop

>>7403338
lmfao, you say you want to put down everyone with a mental illness, and that's not edgy as fuck? Does your mom know you support mass genocide?

>>7403344
A kid with lesbian parents goes to school where most teachers are female. How are they supposed to learn about men that way?

Or, Straight kid with two Dads doesn't grow up seeing anything about romance between men and women besides shitty, unrealistic media. How's he supposed to learn how to live with women?

The same problem happens in single parent homes - the kids grow up missing certain gender roles.

>>7403384
>A kid with lesbian parents goes to school where most teachers are female. How are they supposed to learn about men that way?
By interacting with their male classmates or other male peers and members of the community.
>Straight kid with two Dads doesn't grow up seeing anything about romance between men and women besides shitty, unrealistic media. How's he supposed to learn how to live with women?
Same answer but with females.

>>7403346
ARGUMENT FROM IGNORANCE IS A LOGICAL FALLACY, BURDEN OF PROOF RELIES ON THE CLAIMANT!

>>7403384
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1awrN9NOEY
No one can explain it better than Frank did

>anorexics think they're fat despite being dangerously thin
>call them mentally ill, work on mental health
>trannies think they're actually the opposite gender
>GOTTA BE THE BODY THAT'S WRONG CAN'T POSSIBLY BE THE MIND
Stop making this a civil rights issue. You don't treat any other mental illness by letting the patient indulge it and calling them brave for it.

>>7403442
So why have parents at all? I mean according to you a child's peers are perfect role models and have all the answers.

>>7403462
>building a strawman
No, that's not "according to me". You are arguing that not having one parent of each gender will have a negative effect on the development of a child. Your argument for why is that they won't be properly socialized towards members of the missing gender because they will never interact with them. I'm pointing out that they will interact with members of both genders regardless of their parents. That does not imply that parents have no uses besides gender socialization, or that the same sex parents wouldn't still have an effect on the child's behaviour towards both genders.

>>7403442
Since when do other children count as men and women dingus?

>>7402913
Trannies have a disorder. The whole "gender≠sex" thing is liberals trying to hide that fact by changing the lenguage.

>>7403093
You're fucking retarded, transgender people are 1 in 16000.
>but they're taking over the world
>and those gays too
Kill yourself.

>>7403134
>>7403140
you completely ignore what i said. i didnt say gays cant be nice neighbors or economically productive members of society. what i did say is that the legal acceptance of and governmental support for relationships that are not centered around building a family - which is a communal way of living - and instead focus on personal fulfillment of the individual - which is individualistic - will contribute to an exacerbation of the effects that the shift from a communal understanding of society to an individualistic one had. this legal espousal of non-family-oriented styles of relationships is a product of and reinforces the mistaken notion that the first and most influential community almost every person is a part of - family - is not only no more useful to society than an individualistic mentality, it actually becomes not only secondary, but somewhat undesirable to the individual since the effort and responsibility involved in having and raising children together goes against the desires of the individuals. just look at divorce statistics, number of single parents, birth rate, divorce law, marriage rate, and check out the reasons the rising amount of men who are no longer willing to even look for a wife give for staying alone.

im not saying gays getting married is the reason any of this is happening; the way i see it, the reason for family as an institution of society falling apart seems to me to be a shift from a communal understanding of live to an individualistic one, which is usually expressed in "if you dont hurt anyone, do what you want". what i am saying is that gays getting married reinforces and enshrines that individualistic conviction as the driving force of private life.

>>7403157
miscegenation is not anti-communal, its actually supporting a communal conception of life and society since it does away with the racist nonsense obstructing people from contributing to the proliferation of society.

just because some of the same or similar arguments were used doesnt mean the cases are the same, or even that the general public argued the point reasonably or succinctly, or even from the same point of view. i can argue that drugs should be legalized (and im 100% against this) because it should be every persons individual decision to poison themselves for fun because i actually believe that is a fundamental part of the freedom everyone should have, or because i expect to gain from that monetarily, or politically, or simply because i dont care whether my next door neighbor hangs himself in a schizophrenic attack brought on by mushrooms and i dont see how him being allowed to do that would hurt me, or because i actually think that most drugs arent as bad as the ones that are allowed. this idea that two people who use the same argument must have the same convictions or motives is nonsense.

>>7402446
Then you are a eunuch. Due to either genetic mutation during formation or due to physical accidents/injuries.

>>7404146
>gays want to be monogamous and own a house and have a community
>gays are sociopathic hedonists that destroy communities
Pick 1 m8

>>7402483
>What separates man from beast?

The ability to use their own heightened intelligence to not only adapt to the environment they find themselves in, but also to alter it to serve their own needs and wants.

>>7404711
did you read what i wrote or just skim and thought youd write something silly?

>>7402616
I would propose that it would be determined the same way that sex is determined in model organisms like drosophila melanogaster, by using a ratio system of X to Y chromosomes.

>>7403183
Ooh, cool story. I wish you luck. Though doesn't that mean that your gender was biologically female while your sex was biologically male? The words "social construct" just seem meaningless to me.

Why are trans people obsessed with whether or not someone labeled them right? I thought being labeled was a bad thing.
just do your thing people. nobody is interested in your special snowflake shit. we're all special snowflakes in our own way.

>>7402390
gender is a social construct, therefore it doesn't exist.

>>7404878
gender is a social construct, science is a social construct. that doesn't mean they don't exist.

>>7404878
>language is a social construct
>language doesn't exist
Kill yourself.

>>7402356
>Complaining about abstract machinery developed for the purpose of advancing scientific knowledge on a science board.
lol

>>7402761
>If wanting to be pretty is insane, are all women insane? If wanting to be strong is insane, are all men insane?
Nice strawman retard. Many women bodybuild and many men spend hours styling themselves. That doesn't make them delusional about their own anatomy, thinking they a "female" brain in a "male body" or vice versa. If you think you were "assigned" the wrong body, you ARE mentally ill. That's just a fact.

the debate between gender and sex is fundamentally irrelevant to science.

>>7402217
There is no difference. Sex and gender is not a real dichotomy.

Sex is just the prescriptive aspect of it and gender is the descriptive aspect of it.

You can't 'identify' as something descriptively. Identity is prescriptive. It's meaningless to say you 'identify' as a different gender. Gender is the description. The side-effect. The byproduct. The byproduct only exists after the fact of the product itself. You can't claim to be the byproduct.

There is no difference between sex and gender. End of story.

>>7402480
Different cultures having different interpretations of gender roles in no way contradicts the idea that gender is rooted in biology.

You're mistaking something being rooted in something for something wholly existing in that something.

>>7402457
Well yeah, it's not because someone eats fried chicken everyday and listens to gangsta rap that he becomes black. No matter how much he wants to he'll never be black cause his skin isn't fucking black

>>7402480
>these people were born biologically male
You mean they were born chromosomally male.

Biologically, they are intersex. Chromosomally male, superficially female, reproductively non-functional.

>>7402825
>Having breasts or facial hair isn't comparable to self-destructive or suicidal behavior.
Yes it is.

When you want to take on the existence of the opposite sex you inhibit your reproductive faculty. That's self-destructive and essentially suicidal as you are not just yourself but also your lineage and posterity.

Even in like the virtually nonexistent cases where trans people still have their own children, what kind of fucked up parental relationship would that be like, even if it is mostly fucked up because of extrinsic factors like the way society would view such a dynamic. There's literally no good reason to attempt to change those extrinsic factors to suit like less than 0.001% of the population, so even if it is socially constructed the disdain for a transsexual parent (and it's only that it's socially constructed because the social construct is the actual phenomenological aspect of it, despite the fact that it is undeniably related to biology, this disdain), there's literally no reason to make the situation any different.

All 'sexualities' and 'genders' besides heterosexuality and sexual gender are inherently self-destructive because they obstruct reproduction out of intention and are by virtue simply of that alone mental illnesses.

Deal with it.

>>7405432
Those are some impressive mental gymnastics.

>>7402210
What I learned was that sex describes biological sex while gender describes the cultural roles of each sex.

This means gender IS a social construct, but it isn't self-defined. Rather, it is an emergent property from society itself.

To summarize, trannies are mentally ill.

>>7405432
>When you want to take on the existence of the opposite sex you inhibit your reproductive faculty. That's self-destructive and essentially suicidal as you are not just yourself but also your lineage and posterity.
Yeah, nah. Although it was funny to see Bruce Jenner's ex-wife call him a retard for starting a family even though he wished he was a woman.

>>7402217
If you claim the definition of gender can be changed because trannies and their supporters started using it in a different way, then stop saying that people using gender differently to what you think is right are wrong.

>>7402420
lmao faggot

Penis = man
Vagina = woman

End of story.
If you think other wise it's a mental disorder.

>>7402210
xy, xx

you don't get to choose.

Sex is biological. It cannot be changed.
The concept of sex is gender, it is brought on by societal norms and societal beliefs and what is marketed in magazines, ads, whatever.

In an all male society, a male born would never have the desire to be female. That desire would be irrelevant, females, to this society, would not even be a concept that exists. Therefore, you cannot "innately" be a different "sex." You have to grow up thinking like and emulating the opposite sex until you hate your own body and fully believe the idea you are not the proper biological sex.

>>7402210

Sex, not gender. And there's a gene (SRY) that determines if you'll be a boy or a girl depending if you have it or not. If you have the SRY then you will most likely be a guy, if not then you will be a girl. However this isn't a perfect world so I'm sure that there are some mutations or factors that can ruin the function/disable the SRY gene which will make one a girl.

>>7405775
You literally cannot be a guy without a y chromosome.

>>7402210

I identify as an XYY, come at me.

>>7405465
>mental gymnastics

Spoken like a true fear monger.

>>7402442
Actually, that is a poor definition. What if they don't have testes or ovaries?

The correct definition for "male" and "female" is that one organism has an X and Y chromosome, while the other has two X chromosomes.

>>7405775
>if you'll be a boy or a girl

sex?

>>7405399
Have you ever experienced the misfortune of knowing you have the wrong set of genitals?

Based on your post, I feel like you must not.

>>7406154
That's a mental illness. Just like cutting your arms is considered a mental illness.

>>7402966
There's a huge difference between a mean wearing a pink dress and cutting your penis.

>>7404086
If there are such minorities why the fuck do we need to pander to such degenerates?

For fuck sakes!

>>7402210
Let me break down the modern "progressive" university stance on race:
gender is a social construct
BUT
It's sexist if you don't notice gender and accept someone's heritage
AND
Everyone should be proud of their gender
EXCEPT
It's sexist for men to be proud of their gender
IN FACT
men are evil simply be existing
AND
They're responsible for every bad thing any man has ever done
BUT
Non-men are never responsible for what they do and definitely not responsible for what other non-men do
AND
Non-masculine crime is men's fault

There you go, modern academia's view on gender and sex. The world is fucking insane.

Let me break down the modern "progressive" university stance on gender and sex:
gender is a social construct
BUT
It's sexist if you don't notice gender and accept someone's heritage
AND
Everyone should be proud of their gender
EXCEPT
It's sexist for men to be proud of their gender
IN FACT
men are evil simply be existing
AND
They're responsible for every bad thing any man has ever done
BUT
Non-men are never responsible for what they do and definitely not responsible for what other non-men do
AND
Non-masculine crime is men's fault

There you go, modern academia's view on gender and sex. The world is fucking insane.

>>7403183
Bull fucking Shit

Nobody can't remember shit about being 3 years old. The bottom line is that your parents did not properly raise you.

When I was a kid, I had certain girly tendencies myself. I played with girl toys and had certain girl mannerism. This was mostly because I was all the time with my older sister.

One day my dad saw me hanging my arm like a girl and told me to stop doing that because only girls do that. While it took a while to stop doing girly things. My dad make sure to learn what it is to be a man.

It's not about forcing your kid to do something. If you force something too hard a kid will simply do the opposite out of spite. It's about teaching.

I feel sorry for you, for having such failure of parents. But please don't try to say you don't have a plethora of mental illness.

>>7406188
Pretty much this. The modern academia has what I call a oppression caste system. Think of the caste system but based on oppression. The more "oppressed" caste is the more it matters. For example a white not disabled straight conservative male non immigrant would be considered lowest caste under this system. While a black disabled gay trans immigrant is on the top of the caste.

>>7402210
You can be a different gender. Masculine, feminine, or androgynous. That is how you act/perceive yourself.

You cannot change your sex. Your genetic sex is determined by the presence of a Y chromosome. For fringe cases where people say they are XXY, they would still be male as the second X would bar. If they were somehow alive and XXXXY, they would still be male as all the other extra X would bar.

TLDR Sex does not change, but gender can

In day to day life, I have very little to do with either people's genitalia or their genes. I just don't address or deal with those things for 100% of people I meet (to very good approximation). To let these normally completely inconsequential things dictate how you treat a person seems strange to me.

>>7405844
Biology Professor here. This is pretty much it, folks (for homo sapiens, at least). If you got a y chromosome you're male, end of story.

People can feel they were born the wrong gender, they can prefer certain pronouns, they can cut off/surgically add reproductive organs, but at the end of the day it's what's in your genes, not what's in your jeans. Until further advancement in genetics, the presence of a Y chromosome define the male gender for the life of the person.

>>7403121
What do you think of the /sci/ argument that gender dysphoria is a mental illness?
Do you consider it valid? or simplifying too much?

>>7406337
> at the end of the day it's what's in your genes, not what's in your jeans

Kek'd

>>7406154
'Wrong' in that case is relative. You assume that the psychological experience of wrongness is somehow inextricably tied to its reality. In a way that's correct, there is an inescapable wrongness factored in there, but it's not reliable to the experience of that individual, as the individual himself is unreliable and the wrongness is exactly the unreliability of the illness which allows for such a faulty, haywired judgement to be self-processed.

When you're coming to conclusions like 'I have the wrong set of genitals', it's not the object which is wrong, but the subject himself.

>>7406299
You can't be a different gender.

Gender is descriptive. It's the 'it sort of seems like ... (that)' of sex. You can't be the 'it sort of seems like ... ', you have to be the 'it is ... (this)'.

You can only ever describe yourself as a certain gender, but identity isn't descriptive, it's prescriptive, so you can never go so far as identifying as, for instance, female, when you are biologically male.

The only reason people think they can do that is because they abuse language. But the problem is, abusing language is really the last of the worries of a person who actually believes they can be a different sex (and therefore gender).

>>7403183
You are a fag, deal with it.

>>7402217
I'm confused, these are the same thing, but some politically liberal folk say there's a difference.

As far as I can tell from them, sex is whether you're male or female and gender is just which sex you want to be?

But identifying as fantasy instead of real physiological states seems unhealthy to me.

I don't make people look up above my head because I want to be tall, why should we call men who want to be women 'she'?

Surely the healthier thing to do would be to address the body dysmorphia, which must surely have acceptance as the primary outcome, rather than twisting reality in very messy ways to comform to a patient's fantasy?

Not some raging conservative here, just a baffled person without any friends who are 'trans'.

>>7405017
Prove it does.

>>7406475

>but some politically liberal folk say there's a difference.

I believe the dichotomy is between obviously biological traits (chromosomal makeup and the concomitant physical traits = sex) and the psychological and socio-cultural aspects that tend to bundle up with that (gender). I think there is an actual distinction to be drawn here, but a particularly ambiguous area is exactly WHAT psychological traits are inherent to a sex, to having XY or XX chromosomes, perhaps because they fall out from the particular brain chemistry and makeup of one sex compared to the other, and which of those traits are entirely learned (aka social constructs, more or less).

Very liberal people often take the view that ALL the psychological differences between the sexes are purely learned, and from this argue that while sex is objective, gender is essentially just constructed by social convention. Which I don't think is true. People with XY versus XX chromosomes are drawn to different things in life on average which is why we will never achieve the equality of representation that progressives want unless we authoritarianly force people into certain occupations and so on without regard for their own wishes.

>>7403335
Is Transexualanon still around? Could you elaborate what you mean when you talk about not being satisfied with the surgeries currently available?

>>7402966
Most ancient warrior cultures had long hair, even Spartans. The short hair meme is a newer cultural phenomenon.

>this thread
>literally a faggot engineer blogging
>literally 'muh feelings'

thank god im heterosexual male identifying as male, this shit is pathetic

if you was born a man, act like having a fucking dick instead of being disgrace to your family and forcing people to deal with your "DONT CALL ME A MAN ITS NOT LIKE I AM ONE AND SOUND LIKE ONE AND HAVE A DICK"

bunch of fucking mutants acting all and mighty despite being like what, less than 10% of all population? know your fucking place, you inferior piece of shit

fuck all of you, i need sauce on OP's pic

>>7406587
Romans had short hair. They saw long hair as either an Eastern decadence, or a barbaric custom.

>>7402217

Synonyms.

>>7406616
it's tybee diskin you memer. learn to use google image search

>>7405399
I agree with this anon

>>7406475
Sex is having penis or vagina, gender is wearing a dress or raping women.

>>7405399
This

>>7403183
10/10 post

>>7406190
>>7406601
>>7406188
>>7406203
>>7405698

Thank you based schism of /sci/

>>7407255

Looks like someone was just reading Heartiste, then came here.

>>7406583
I'm still here.

>Could you elaborate what you mean when you talk about not being satisfied with the surgeries currently available?
I feel that for the price and drawbacks of having sex reassignment surgery, the payoff isn't worth it. The surgery provides only the external and sexual functions of the female reproductive system. The lack of reproductive and other functions coupled with the staggering price and recovery period, as well as the risk of complications or loss of sexual function deter me from really considering it. I also am afraid that if I get the surgery, it will interfere with superior surgeries or procedures that may be available in the future.

>>7406183
You have an incredibly gross and simplified misunderstanding of transsexualism.

>>7405432
This is already addressed >>7402825 >>7402842

>>7406183
Humans cut each other's penis all the time.

High school doesn't provide enough information on anything to be considered lying even if it the information is false

>>7407297
It may be addressed but the point still stands all the same because your address wasn't valid. Yes, a voluntary vasectomy is an inherently self-destructive act. Yes opting to NOT have children (rather than mere suspension of choice) is self-destructive.

Although these things are only relatively self-destructive, they don't cross the same absolute threshold as does e.g. homosexuality.

Not having kids or not being able to have kids but still being a heterosexual person in a heterosexual relationship is categorically different from being a homosexual et al.

>>7406539
We are talking about it, it has a measurable impact on many people's lives who have no reason to lie about it.

It's a social construct, yes, but I don't see how that makes it less real

Say you have someone who is male (sex), but identifies as female (gender). If gender is just a social construct, an arbitrary designation of customs, why does he feel the need to partake in what is just an arbitrary gender construct? Are there cases where men who identify as women don't feel the need to act like women because it is, after all, just a social construct?

And what if society successfully purged the social construct of gender? Would males who identify as females then identify as neither male nor female? It would be completely arbitrary.

Seems easier to believe gender is rooted in biology.

>>7407638
Gender being socially constructed does not mean it isn't rooted in biology, why would they be mutually exclusive?

Sex determination depends on a lot of different genes in mammals. Many of these genes are not found on the sex chromosomes at all.

>>7407678
Because they need to be mutually exclusive in order for the notion of gender being a social construct to be meaningful, worth saying in the first place.

Otherwise it's just an empty statement with absolutely (literally) 0 implications.

We both agree that gender is basically merely an epiphenomenon of sex, but what you don't agree with, simply because you haven't taken the thought to its logical conclusion, is that it being an epiphenomenon means its void of its prescriptive power, meaning a person can't 'identify' (in any real sense, anyway) as being a gender different from the one which their sex implies.

People who think they can legitimately identify as a different gender than their biological sex implies have simply become enchantedly lost within the maze of language.

It's just a mistake of language. The classic Wittgensteinian problematic of misplacing a descriptive copula for a prescriptive one.

>>7407701
>meaning a person can't 'identify' (in any real sense, anyway) as being a gender different from the one which their sex implies.
but trans do
>People who think they can legitimately identify as a different gender than their biological sex implies have simply become enchantedly lost within the maze of language.
everyone experiencing themselves are just wrong I guess, but you're totally right about what they're going through

>>7402210
If "gender" is a social construct, then how does anyone explain the various forms a differences between play types between boys and girls before being socially influenced?

And how could someone be "born the wrong gender" if it's nothing more than a social construct?

>>7407792
>but trans do
Them descriptively committing the act is not the same thing as the act prescriptively being done, succeeded.

I can say 'I now have a million dollars' literally indefinitely and it alone as a rule will not bring about a million dollars.

That's what trans people do and you have literally no evidence to suggest otherwise while the logical default is such that this is exactly what they're doing.


>everyone experiencing themselves are just wrong I guess, but you're totally right about what they're going through
Uh yeah, generally speaking this is exactly what the (soft) science of psychology is. The body of knowledge which tends to the progressive realisation that people as a rule aren't so particular more than they are general. I mean that's not to say that a human being can't be exceptional, but definitely not before they understand how they are regular.

The issue with transsexuality is that it's a state of being which occurs in a naïve state of knowledge, and when it odes not occur in a naïve state of knowledge, it is most definitely post-hoc. And where it is post-hoc, it is heavily overcompensated, as you will note most 'trans' people who are educated about their condition have an almost autistic obsession with it.

I mean when your sexuality itself is sublimated into your identity, it's not too much of a task to sublimate all of your identity into your intellect. That's why LGBT people tend to be so, well anal, about detail and breadth, but certainly at the cost of depth.

LGBT as a sociopolitical whole is probably one of the most vacuous ideologies I've personally ever come across.

>>7403140
>muh faggots are good because they enforce their standards on other people while crying whenever it happens to them
>muh queers are good for being despicable house flippers

Get GRIDS, you fucking degenerate.

>>7403183
>Now I'm an engineering student

>Potential discussion degrades into /pol/ arguing that anyone who doesn't reproduce is "insane" and going "ewww. that's icky!"

Don't you guys ever get tired of beating the same horse?

>>7407920
How mad are you that that's actually true?

If you don't reproduce bar none there's something wrong with you and there's nothing you can do to distort that truth for your own personal convenience. You hate it because it's a mirror which forces you to see how weak you are. Beautiful isn't it.

>>7403183
What made you feel fundamentally feminine?

>>7407928
>Strawmanning this hard

I can impregnate a chick or go to a sperm bank if I want to reproduce.

I just don't see how if you don't there's something wrong with you. Especially in modern society where we don't need more people and one can achieve a giant legacy without children. You're not being scientific. You're using antiquated ideals and saying "this is what's morally right. This is the meaning of life." and then wehenver someone questions it, you say "it's self evident!" and leave it at that.

Now if you'll allow me to strawman, something tells me if we go down this rabbit hole, you'll start spouting about the importance of reproduction for the ensurement of the future of hte white race, am I right?

>>7408030
Not while you're functionally homo/transsexual you can't.


>Especially in modern society where we don't need more people
That's not how it works. You don't stop reproducing all together if you're overpopulated, you reproduce LESS, but you still reproduce. Every family having less than 2.5 children a generation and the population decreases exponentially.

The problem is, it really is self-evident, and if you really just don't understand it then hey maybe you're not fit to live. But the message of telling society to not be so gullible towards these liberal ideologies is actually more humanistic than any liberal ideology could ever hope to be. It ACTUALLY helps you, not just makes you feel happy, but gives you stock in the things which actually matter, like survival of your legacy.


Also, again, you're using the term strawman incorrectly. I'm not turning the argument into something unrelated and arguing from there. That's what a strawman is, and that's nowhere near how I'm responding to you. Stop throwing around that word at everything you don't understand.

>You're using antiquated ideals and saying "this is what's morally right. This is the meaning of life."

You call it antiquated because you need to repress it out of reality, out of history itself, because you're so deathly afraid of it, because it doesn't mean such good things for a person like you (a person who can't understand the basic truth that it's better, just completely in general and in all cases, to survive than it is to die).

>>7408040
A strawman is making assumptions about the traits of your opponent and then arguing against those assumptions, ie building a "strawman" to tear down. You did just that when you assumed I was transgender/homosexual from my reply. The idea that straight people may not think all homosexuals and transgendered people are insane somehow doesn't even cross your mind.

And your logic about overpopulation is retarded. Any adjustment to reproduction should be approached on a population-wide level, not an individual level. Moreover, it's retarded to look at any mating practices of human beings at an individual level considering we evolved as communal, tribal creatures. And that's all again assuming that somehow gay people don't reproduce, which is simply false. Historically gay men have married and raised kids just as straight men, and again nothing is stopping gay people from donating to sperm banks in the modern age.

But why should I even bother arguing with you? Your opinions are officially the minority in the western world. They're certainly not backed by the scientific community, and now they're not backed by the general population either. All you can hope is that the "degeneracy" reaches such a high level that western civilization collapses so /pol/ can build again. :^)

>>7402966
he/she whatever still looks like a dude those pictures are cherrypicked

>>7408064
No that's an ad hominem you illiterate retard.

A strawman is a more general type of red herring where an argument is constructed and pretended to be relevant, when it is in fact not, and either posited or negated to the effect of making it seem like the argument has gone the way of the committer, but in reality the argued point was actually irrelevant, hence being a strawman, i.e. a man made of straw, not a real man. An actually irrelevant distraction like strawmen in fields fending off crows from picking at the crops without actually doing anything.

And a red herring is creating a point specifically to divert the attention of the opposition. Both are not 'making assumptions about the traits of your opponent and then arguing against those assumptions', which is an ad hominem. Fucking moron.

And no assuming you were yourself trans or homosexual is not a strawman of any sort, it's called a fucking assumption retard. A reasonable one at that.

Straight people who don't recognise trans/homosexuals as, in some manner of speaking, insane, are just confused. It is possible to have a confused opinion you know. Everybody understands these people are fundamentally wrong, though whether or not that knowledge is latent or actually surfaced is a different issue entirely.

>Any adjustment to reproduction should be approached on a population-wide level, not an individual level.
What the fuck is wrong with you? What does this even mean? How could you have an adjustment to reproduction from a population-wide level without first having it effective at the individual level? There's something seriously wrong with your mind.

>>7408064

>And that's all again assuming that somehow gay people don't reproduce, which is simply false. Historically gay men have married and raised kids just as straight men, and again nothing is stopping gay people from donating to sperm banks in the modern age.
This is because homosexuality doesn't actually exist and is just a social construct made to make sense of what is actually just general sexual perversion. So did 'gay' men reproduce historically, evolutionarily? Of course, but only because they're not actually 'gay', gayness here is a category error, rather, they're 'sexually perverted', and so the idea of a 'sexually perverted' man reproducing isn't so far-fetched as this nonstarter of a loaded statement of the idea of a 'gay' man reproducing.

Homosexuality as a concept is something which was invented recently as nature's way of curbing sexual perversion in the population, by normalising it, naming it, and eradicating it. A 'divide and conquer' if you will, except more towards 'identify (seek) and destroy'.

>Your opinions are officially the minority in the western world.
And that's 100% sociologically dictated. It has not so much to do with the fact of them being wrong or right but just that what the social consensus is more of a deterministic thing which sways back and forth like a pendulum before once again returning to its position of either inertia or perfect relative motion.

>>7408064


>They're certainly not backed by the scientific community, and now they're not backed by the general population either.
The scientific community isn't even backed by itself. It's the same exact thing as history and society, as described above. Read yourself some Kuhn and thinking about science like a child, like it were some nebulous, undecided thing, rather than something which is essentially itself bound to scientific (sociological) laws.

The current state of affairs, empirical reality, means nothing. The only thing which means anything is logic and while the social state of the scientific community or the populace may affirm homosexuality and other such degeneracy, the logic forever says something different, and that truth which the logic shows us is the only truth which will ever matter.

Have fun living in ignorance, perpetual fear always to be blamed on something else when you realise your first assessment of that fear isn't in fact comprehensive (if only they accepted us THIS way, etc. ad infinitum), forever running away from the authentic dimension of your humanity stuck in a state of perpetual want towards the cool, numb social fantasy you've constructed to shield yourself from the reality of your own essential weakness.

>>7408089
>Everybody understands these people are fundamentally wrong, though whether or not that knowledge is latent or actually surfaced is a different issue entirely.
Talking out of my ass: the sentence.

And if you honestly can't see the difference between micro and macro-level mechanisms, then I'm not going to waste any more of my time, m8.

>>7402210
OP sauce or moar pics of that chick please!

>>7408098
>Talking out of my ass: the sentence.
It's like if somebody's describing the consistency of a liquid and they say it's 'rough' but at the same time everybody understands they're talking about a liquid so it's not so contradictory.

But with the sanity of LGBT people, it's like you make that sort of contradictory description but the initial subject matter of what you're actually referring to is lost, and that's how a normal person can possibly view an LGBT person as not insane.

Once you actually understand what it is you're saying when you talk about gay people, there's no room left to deny their insanity.

I mean it's like if I said, having sex in a dumpster with a 53 year old toothless crackwhore with orangutang tits is fucking nasty and you just stared at me and asked me 'why'. I could say, well because it's fucking dirty and all sorts of wrong and you could just as easily say 'okay but why exactly', and we could just keep going.

The difference with gay people and my crackwhore example is that you ACTUALLY, like you honestly believe what you're saying, you honestly don't personally see anything wrong with it, no less that it's essentially of the same disgustingness as the dumpster example.

>>7408106
agree, also this.

>>7408098

It comes down to a matter of sense. All human being's good sense isn't created equal. People can have their good sense fucked up over the course of their lives, and not even through particularly traumatic or bad events or circumstances, but even through things like taking your education in some fundamentally wrong 'way'. You can end up being effaced of all your good sense by being subjected to an education, and this is indeed what happens to a lot of people and these people grow up to become our 'experts', our 'scientific community' which you enthrone as holding so much weight.

Not saying education is ever a bad thing per se, in this case, but people can be born predisposed to just taking it the wrong way and ending up like that.

So what. Now you're an expert and you honestly don't see anything wrong with something like homosexuality. You've lost that good sense to see it in the same capacity as the dumpster diving crackwhore sex example. But the fallacy here is yours. You need to take a step back and realise that YOU are the wrong one here. YOU are the one who lacks the sense, and also that YOU are wrong in assuming that something like good sense can't become fatally degraded.

>>7408098

So, finally, let's take a look at the bigger picture. Is it that society has, after 10,000 years of recorded history, all of the sudden reached some state of enlightenment which now deems homosexuality as something fundamentally good or even neutral as opposed to fundamentally wrong? OR. Or, is it that society has, in all likelihood due to the state of shock which is the byproduct of the industrial and then technological revolutions, fallen into a state of degraded good sense, and has begun to realise these false enlightenments (in the very same fashion in which cancer metastasises) in which homosexuality (taking this term to represent the generality here) is all of the sudden something which is okay, good even?


It's a little thing called Occam's razor.
>Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

We live in a naturalistic universe. Down is not up. Homosexuality and friends are all just different forms of the same illness.

>I don't need your science. It's self-evident!

>>>/pol
>>>/lit/
>>>/literally anywhere other than /sci//

>>7402210
>Don't sexual chromosomes define gender?

>Born with a vag
>Develops breasts during puberty without taking hormones for it

>But this Anon thinks she's a man because she has XY chromosomes

Thank GOD you don't get to decide.

>>7404878
>gender is a social construct, therefore it doesn't exist.

>Social construct

>Doesn't exist

The fact that it's a social construct doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Borders are social constructs too, you'll still get shot trying to walk into North Korea.

>>7405106
>If you think you were "assigned" the wrong body, you ARE mentally ill. That's just a fact.

>Mental illness
>Factual

You do realize the DSM is written by humans, right? Gets regular revisions?

"Your symptoms are described in the most current DSM" is a factual statement that can be true or false.

"Your symptoms belong in the DSM" is an opinion, not a factual statement.

>>7405407
>You're mistaking something being rooted in something for something wholly existing in that something.

>gender is rooted in biology.

>"Getting called 'him' instead of 'her' is rooted in biology."

Not it isn't. It's rooted in culture.

>>7405432
>Yes it is.
>This is my professional opinion based on my degree in psychiatry, definitely not just some shit I'm pulling out of my ass

Good job anon, you almost had me.

>>7405755
>Born with a vag
>Develops breasts during puberty

>but this blood test shows you're actually a man because you have XY chromosomes

Good job Anon you solved the case, Jennifer was a man all along.

>>7406337
>Biology Professor here

>Biology Professor who hasn't heard of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome

Sure, "Professor." You know what makes somebody a man and it's definitely their chromosomes and not how they're treated by society.

>>7406475
>I don't make people look up above my head because I want to be tall, why should we call men who want to be women 'she'?

>Men

How do you know they're men? (Hint: There is nothing you can answer that isn't at least one of: Inconsistent, ridiculous.)

>>7407638
>Are there cases where men who identify as women don't feel the need to act like women because it is, after all, just a social construct?

Yes

>>7406154
how can you have the "wrong" genital?
you're assuming that brain and body are two different entities.
>which they're not

>>7407701
>Because they need to be mutually exclusive in order for the notion of gender being a social construct to be meaningful, worth saying in the first place.

No. Again: Borders are a social construct but you'll get shot when you sneak into North Korea no matter whether you believe in them or not. Getting called "He" instead of "She" is purely cultural, in Germany they don't even use those words (Instead: "Er," "Sie") but that doesn't mean it doesn't actually happen.

>>7407832
>before being socially influenced?

Do you mean "while still in the womb" ?

>>7407839
>I can say 'I now have a million dollars' literally indefinitely and it alone as a rule will not bring about a million dollars.

"Having a million dollars" isn't a cultural construct though - you can just point at the pile of cash.

>>7407928
>there's something wrong with you

According to which objective standard that isn't just some guys opinion?

>>7408122
>So, finally, let's take a look at the bigger picture. Is it that society has, after 10,000 years of recorded history, all of the sudden reached some state of enlightenment which now deems homosexuality as something fundamentally good or even neutral as opposed to fundamentally wrong? OR. Or, is it that society has, in all likelihood due to the state of shock which is the byproduct of the industrial and then technological revolutions, fallen into a state of degraded good sense, and has begun to realise these false enlightenments (in the very same fashion in which cancer metastasises) in which homosexuality (taking this term to represent the generality here) is all of the sudden something which is okay, good even?

>Moral realizations are only good if they have a hundred generations all believing the same thing

Bring back slavery right now I guess, it was seen as good for too long for it to actually be bad.

Also: Good job on bringing in Occam, that's rich. "The simplest explanation is that my opinion is correct." Well done faggot.

>>7406403

this

>>7403221
so a person who can't have children is NOT a failed offspring?
how's that?
I know you liberals give lots of stupid meanings to life but in truth the only thing that matters is reproduction.
you can't reproduce? you're useless.
just because we're so many that we can fuck around that doesn't mean the laws of nature are changed

>>7408408
You're absolutely right, everyone who hasn't had a dozen kids is obviously a tragic failure. The might have done fantastic things, discovered important things about the universe, or created great works of art, but if they didn't manage to reproduce then they were completely useless. There is no other possible point for people to exist than to make children, and anyone who says otherwise is obviously lying.
Good job at discovering the meaning of life, I look forward to attending your Nobel Prize ceremony.