/sci/ - Science & Math

>>7345975
Yes, it does suck.
Also, Elon Musk is an idiot.

SpaceX abuses the fact that most people want to work in the space industry to the point of paying wageslave salaries (for an engineer). Most people are smart enough to just go work for Lockheed etc. instead so the few employees who do stick around are abused and overworked.

Also as anon pointed out Elon himself is idiot with a BA degree, he made lucky investments and wouldn't be here if paypal, not a novel idea, didn't luck out.

>>7345975

Hi OP,

Philosopher major here

It's like working at every other company OP, yes it does suck

People leave so much mess in the toilet and you have to work really fast to keep it clean during the entire shift, mandatory overhours, endless hours just scracthing the toilet makes you wish you studied maths or physics instead. Its gruelling, relentless, and unfullfilling. . Pay is low. No health Insurance. If you get diabetes or some health issue you get fired! It gets unbearable hot and humid in the summer time. If you go to the potty anytime other than break time you get wrote up. 3 write ups-your fired, no exeptions. Only one short week vacation per year. While your boss takes up to 5 weeks. Its very oppressive-legalized slavery. $9/hr gets your no financial goals to attain or peace of mind. $9/hr. Sounds fair? Oh you can get health insurance- you will pay $200 per week and it cover basically nothing. When you apply to a SpaceX - they love to toot their own horns and say "we are a progressive people orientated company!" Ya right! progressive for who? USA is not so great for everybody.

>>7345998
It's sad that I've been posting in major politics threads for so long that I almost thought this guy was being sincere.

>>7345989
>to the point of paying wageslave salaries (for an engineer)
All engineers are wageslaves.

>>7346038
Not really, most enigineers work in industry long enough to learn about it then either do engineering management for 130k average (accrding to US labour department) or use the capital from their high starting salaries for their own startups or consulting firms.

Of course there are a few autists with no plan at all other than staying in low paying jobs, but they are honestly the minority.

>>7345982
Did he invent anything useful
All his products seem to be untested or just repackage repackaged

>>7345989
>>7345982
>>7346067
>Musk is a billionaire who owns a well known space company
>You are a mediocre student at a mediocre university who lives in his mum's basement
>"Musk is an idiot"
>>7346067
His Merlin engines hold the record for greatest thrust to weight ratio ever. The only thing I don't like about his company apart from the alleged slave driving are those pointless barge landing attempts

>>7346104
>His Merlin engines hold the record for greatest thrust to weight ratio ever.
He didn't design it.

>>7346123
His company did, the engine wouldn't exist without his company which he paid for. Stop hating.

>>7345975
He might be getting the Steve Jobs treatment by pop-sci reading neckbeards everywhere, but at least he's spending his money on useful stuff.

>>7346166
Only thing I don't like about Jobs is the anti-science approach he had to his health.
>>7346104
> those pointless barge landing attempts
from what I understand FAA (or something similar) won't let him land on land until he can reliably do it on a barge.

>>7346169
why? that's fuckery, how hard is it to give him a patch of land in the nevada desert to land in? why is he putting up with this shit? why hasn'#t he asked russia for permission to land in siberia?

>>7345975
I don't like him and his approach and philosophy about space.
I feel like people just support his corporations because it is an "in" thing to do.
Also, in America we have this slobbering worship of CEOs. In fact, CEOs don't do shit; they invest and watch the money grow.

You should be worshiping the scientists and engineers who design these things. But sadly, Musk gets all the credit when he didn't do shit.

>>7346203
>CEOs don't do shit

>>7346206
CEOs don't do shit compared to engineers or scientists. Especially Elon Musk
They are the true hard working and curious minds.

>>7346217
Nice meme opinions you have there.

>>7346163
>his company which he paid for.

So how does paying engineers to do design something for you mean you are capable of doing it yourself?

Sure he paid for it with paypal money, which wasn't a novel idea, he's just like Zuckerburg who lucked out. Neither of them have reason to be arrogant. They did the exact same shit many other idiots where doing and got lucky.

>>7346227
>t-they just l-lucked out, a-anyone could d-do what they did if they were in t-their positions
Typical loser talk.

>>7346233
You are really butthurt that people on here don't like Musk.
It's true though, he is just good at investing. That's it.

>>7346203
it's called charisma you autist, the guys at the top have bags and hence are worshipped whereas STEMtards on the workshop floor are too cringeworthy to be seen with in public.

>>7346227
>anyone who is more successful than me just got lucky
This is why you will always be a loser.

>>7345989

Musk has a degree in physics and econ from an Ivy League school and made his first money off of Zip2, which he founded in his house after leaving the Stanford physics PhD program. He then invested almost all of the money he got from Zip2 into other projects that led to the sale of Paypal, of which he also reinvested almost all of the money into Tesla, Space X, etc.

The only thing you could call lucky is selling Zip2 for as much as he did, but I think he's had enough wins to not have it chalked up to luck

>>7345975
does money make your hair grow back?

>>7346163
Merlin was conceived before SpaceX.

>>7346191
The first stage doesn't have that kind of range. It's pretty much Florida (/VAFB) or nowhere.

>>7346233
>>7346291
Elon pls go.

>>7346359
Indirectly, yes it does.

>>7346163
I think that anon's trying to make the distinction between his achievements, he's a successful investor, not a successful scientist

>>7345982
Why is that? Seems pretty damn accomplished to me.

>>7346359
Money buys you political political representation, a better looking wife, more friends, and better healthcare, to name a few things.

>>7346359

Yes.

It also somehow made him more fit and handsome.

>>7346436
Stress hormones from being poor are one hell of a drug...

>>7346334
20k of daddies money to create Zip.
>Musk has a degree in physics and econ from an Ivy League school
BS and BA, from an upper-middle class family after attending private schools and "second best secondary school in the world."
>after leaving the Stanford physics PhD program.
After 2 days of being there. hahaha
>The only thing you could call lucky is selling Zip2 for as much as he did, but I think he's had enough wins to not have it chalked up to luck
And being born white in a uppermiddle class family in south africa, getting 28k from daddy, and having a brother helping him (also from a upper middle class family - goes without saying, but you know... you're a dumbass) and moving to Canada before serving in the military/turning 18.

Literally Hitler accomplished more than Musk and in a more difficult hardworking way.

>>7345975
I would enslave myself to work in Tesla/SpaceX.
Elon Musk is my waifu

>>7346478

Literally you need to go outside

>>7345989
This is similar to the computer/video game industry AFAIK

Holy shit. /sci/ truly is the most toxic board on 4chan.
So much hate and so little respect for hard work in here.
We engineers wouldn't get done shit if there wasn't businessmen like Musk who know how to realize it.

>tfw you realize Musk is such a genius, he is purposefully falling into the pop-sci meme of this technological messiah, in order to create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

>>7346288
That's my point, he just looks and sounds good.
He has no special scientific or engineering talents.
He shouldn't be worshiped as some genius.

All he did was invest

>>7346507
>so little respect for hard work in here.
What hard work?
It was mostly luck and investing.
The money he got was from his rich family

>>7346507
Also, we respect mathematicians and scientists. Not well to do businessmen. The board is called math and science.

>>7346518
If you built a company from the ground you recieve a huge share of the credit for whatever this company achieves. And that's the way it should be. People who work for a successful company get their share of the credit through social status and good payment but of course they're just the workerbees.
This might seem unjust to you, but it isn't. There is much less risk in getting a good education and being a good employee than in being an entrepreneur, so of course the reward for being an entrepreneur is higher, too.

>>7346525
Oh, I didn't know /sci/ stands for unreasonable eltists.

>>7346522
you have no idea how hard this guy works while you're shitposting on 4chan.

>>7346530
Musk hasn't contributed directly to science or math. He isn't an Einstein, Newton, or Galileo. He is merely a businessman, in any /sci/entists' mind he can never compare to the greatness of these men or men alike. /sci/ looks up upon people who have contributed directly to science or math, so it makes sense that /sci/ would be angry if someone touts that Musk should be held to some genius esteem. Especially when discovering relativity or inventing calculus is much more difficult than simply "investing".
I think >>>/biz/ is better fit for you.

>>7346556
I admire people who are push advances in science and technology, I don't care if he just provides the means for other people to do it or if he does it himself.

No, he's no scientific genius, but i'm pretty sure that what he does is in /sci/'s best interest and for that he deserves respect.

>>7346570
Yes.
But we simply do not care about business at all. We don't care about Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, or whoever.
Take that shit somewhere else. This is suppose to be about math and science topics. Not worshiping some mere businessman; I am glad we agree that he doesn't fit the standard mold and mind of a scientist or mathematician.

Certainly, you must understand why its annoying to see people come on /sci/ to worship someone who hasn't directly contributed to science or math.
Please, go to >>>/biz/ if you want to talk about Musk's accomplishments; they certainly aren't scientific ones.

>>7346217
Yeah whatever, get back to work sweeping the lab floor, anon.

>>7346507
Exactly
>/sci/ constantly whining that nobody will fund their outlandish R&D schemes
>One guy finally decides to spend his billions on outlandish R&D
>/sci/ hates on him calling him a privileged loser who is stealing their glory.

>>7346529
This. I dropped out of STEM to try starting a business and it is far harder than any of your fancy equations. In STEM you go to class, read the book, pass the test, get a job. In business you have to build everything from scratch and there is no guide because every business is different. And after all that there's a 90% chance that it was all for nothing.

>>7346227

being zuckerberg/musk level lucky isn't just being lucky once
it's being lucky millions of times, over and over again

i'm not even sure if you can get away with calling that luck without sounding a bit silly

>>7346636
Idk man sometimes luck just happens like that.

I bet that for everyone as successful as Musk there are 10 more of equal talent with nothing to show for it [or if not nothing, nowhere near as much].

>>7346556
> He is merely a businessman, in any /sci/entists' mind he can never compare to the greatness of these men or men alike
Yeah okay, how about we hear from actual PIs and academics instead of some retarded undergrad "/sci/entist" with a superiority complex?

You won't achieve 1% of what Musk and his company have done for science.

>>7346636
Luck is a term used by losers with external loci of control.

>>7346666
SATAN

>>7346666
Luck is also a term used by the successful, in explaining how they got to be so.

>>7346666
this

>>7346666
check'd

basically fundamental attribution error.

>>7346688
Nah mate, selection effect.

You only hear about the people who make it.
Like sports stars or film actors.

>>7346666
>control

I don't know how you fuckers can believe this. If you subscribe go scientism (and I know you fuckers do) then you already know free will doesn't exist; consciousness is an artifact of self awareness. Musk was successful because the universe demanded it.

>>7346783
>Musk was successful because the universe demanded it

Yes, it's the law of attraction. If you send positive energy out in the universe, you get money and bitches back.

Pic related, it's the original visionboard photographed in Elon Musk's dorm room.

>>7346478
Wow what? Literally who HAS accomplished more than Hitler? Anyway musk had accomplished a good amount already and will be accomplishing much more.

>>7346478
>Literally Hitler accomplished more than Musk and in a more difficult hardworking way.

Go back to /pol/ you piece of trash.

>>7345975

Whether working at SpaceX sucks or not will probably heavily depend on what your expectations are of working here.

The hours expected are much longer than in most traditional aerospace companies and I would consider the starting pay to be below industry averages especially considering the expense of living in Socal.

On the other hand the company itself is filled with some very bright, hardworking and creative people and you get to work on some interesting projects. SpaceX also tends to be much less bureaucratic and flat in structure compared to most big aero/defense companies and if you're someone who enjoys a certain amount of autonomy in your work this can be a refreshing change.

SpaceX and Musk in particular can be pretty uncompromising and they have no problem firing those who fail to meet expectations.

I think part of the reason SpaceX is often thought of as a bad place to work is simply due to us having relatively high turnover compared to the rest of the industry. This turnover is due both to employees being fired as well as employees deciding that the work/life/pay balance just isn't worth it to them.

The one thing that SpaceX does extremely well is apprising prospective employees about what is expected of them. Still, you'd be surprised at how many people come on board after very explicitly being told what was expected of them, and after considerable resources have been spent training and getting them up to speed, only to have them constantly bitching about being overworked. I would be more sympathetic if SpaceX wasn't completely upfront about this at multiple points in the hiring process.

One unintended benefit of relatively high turnover is that if you stick around you can advance faster than at most similar companies and at that point the pay falls more inline with industry standards.

>>7347392
From your post I take that you work for SpaceX?
First off, gratulations!

Please answer: How hard is it to get hired at SpaceX as mech engineer?
Is it like google, that only the brightest ivy league students get the job, or do you have a good chance with a good masters from a international top 100 university?

>>7347392

Also, I see way too many employees come in with a sense of entitlement simply b/c they made the cut. SpaceX, like all companies, isn't there to make your life comfortable. Work is simply an exchange of labor for compensation, if you don't like it than you're free to leave. It's an employee's responsibility to get the most out of working here.

I know several people who really didn't like working here b/c of the work/life balance and ended up leaving in 1-2 years. While they are all happy that they ultimately left, they generally feel that they have never worked with more knowledgeable and dedicated coworkers and that their careers are certainly better off in no small part due to having SpaceX on their resumes.

SpaceX is well known for working its employees hard and for this and other reasons can be a really valuable asset to have on your resume. Being relatively young and still rather small, there aren't that many ex-SpaceX employees out there when compared to Boeing/LockMart/etc, and its mostly assumed within the industry that if you can survive here you can do so anywhere.

I have some colleagues that have left to work at other big aero/defense firms and were offered positions that they wouldn't have been without SpaceX on their resumes.

In short, like much of life, working at SpaceX is what you make of it. It can be extremely rewarding or downright insufferable depending on what your expectations are and your individual goals in life.

>>7347403
Thanks, I do work here and try to post relevant info whenever this topic comes up.

Hiring is extremely competitive but being that we are still fairly small and specialized I feel like we generally aren't as hung up or impressed with things like being from an Ivy as other big name companies, particularly in the tech industry . To be fair though, most of our engineers are from top tier schools, although I think our technical recruiting/HR department does a better job than most at identifying good programs/candidates from schools that aren't otherwise considered "elite".

For instance, I wouldn't consider OSU or Purdue to be top tier schools on the level of MIT/Caltech/Stanford/Cal but we have many employees from both. OSU has one of the top Welding Engineering departments and Purdue has one of the best Propulsion Engineering programs in the US.

I would say the biggest factor in getting hired as a MechEng is impressing managers with the projects you've taken part in. It is especially beneficial if you have things outside of school that show you are knowledgeable and passionate about engineering.

This won't relate to your case as an engineer but it will give you an example of the kind of hires we occasionally take on that might seem unusual. I know one guy here who works in the composites department whose sole prior work experience was as a carpenter. He's great with his hands and was able to impress the hiring manager with some projects he had built in his spare time. They ended up hiring and training him and he's been with the company for a few years now. It's actually not that unusual for us to employ people without much, or in some cases any, prior aerospace experience. This obviously primarily only holds true for those in our trade skills but it goes to show we aren't afraid to take risks on prospective employees.

>>7347403

With regards to being from an international university the only problem I see here is if you are a foreign citizen. Due to ITAR, SpaceX can only hire US Citizens or Permanent Residents.

Apologies for taking a while to respond, it is always busy here.

>>7347081
>bring a devastated country out of the shit and into the super power ranking in less than 30 years

Yeah what a worthless shithead.

>>7345975
yea, its pretty much known around the aerospace industry (NOTE: NOT POPSCI FAGS OR COLLEGE STUDENTS) that spacex works you like a damn dog, you get paid a "normal" year's salary for it. even thought you're working twice as hard. they have cool work though, ill give them that.

but you're out all the time so your wife is cheating on you and all that hard work you're doing is paid at half rate. if you were being paid more, you could be driving a lexus and paying off your mortgage

>>7347529
Could Musk overworking them to have sex with their wives? This could be the biggest cuckolding scandal in the world.

>>7347542
he's also taking all your money and using it to pay for his nth mortgage. but seriously go read the glassdoor reviews about tesla or spacex.

its always "working here is super duper cool, but A LOT OF FUCKING WORK"

>>7347466
Oh, cool. Thanks.
Getting a greencard should be managable.

>>7347561

I respect someone who is honest about it. Also, you do things most people would dream about. I think it is a fair trade.

>>7347581
Np, good luck.

With regards to Musk personally, the dude really does work his ass off.

I don't have many other commitments in my life and I really enjoy my work so I tend to put in some crazy hours and can attest to the fact that Musk is here working alongside us a lot. He is not some figurehead CEO.

>>7346522
He doesn't come from a particularly rich family.

Your family is probably richer, yet you're shitposting from your mom's basement.

Pathetic.

>>7347542

If anything, his workers would be the ones having sex with Musk's wife. Watch the video with him and his wife in it, you can tell hes a major cuckhold. He even re-married her after she cheated on him.

>>7346217
>CEOs don't do shit
butthurt poor fag detected

>>7345982
kewl, 2 one-line ad homiens with nothing additional from a random on the internet.

>>7346104
the barge is useful

1. regulators want it for safety
2. since error is likely initially, it saves cleanup costs
3. upper stages wont have enough fuel to make it back to land, they will have to go for a baarge in the ocean anyway
(they are currently only attempting lower stages landing)

>>7346217
>beeing this uninformed
lower class detected

>>7346583
speak for yourself autist

>>7347464
Do you think I would have any chance getting hired, given my background? B.S.ME with concentration in thermal fluids, and 2 years experience as engineer doing R&D and designing mechanisms and electromechanical systems in the automation industry. Went to a Polytechnic Institute in the northeast?

>>7347755
Why not just apply for the job and see where you go?

>>7347494
20

>>7347760
I most likely will, just seemed like a good chance to get a feel beforehand. Submitting resumes and hearing no word back is extremely annoying to me, so a "don't bother"response to my post would be better in mind.

>>7347529
>80h week causes your wife to cheat on you
weak limp faggot detected

>>7346104

Highest thrust to weight ratio ever for a single chamber engine, not that that isn't a major accomplishment. The real feature of a Merlin engine is that it's apparently insanely robust and over-engineered compared to most other engines which balance between being as efficient as possible and not instantly blowing up.


Also the barge landings are definitely not useless. Attempting to land on a small barge is just like attempting to land on a small pad from an avionics and guidance perspective, except your fuel budget isn't as tight because it doesn't require as big a boostback maneuver. Learning how to steer a rocket and land it on a postage stamp will give them invaluable data for learning how to guide a rocket back to a pad and land it with much narrower margins. Also, a stage landed on a barge will probably be just as reusable as one landed back at the pad, and if it takes two weeks to refurbish one then it doesn't really matter which platform it lands on. Back-at-the-Pad landings are for RAPID reusability, while barge landings are for TESTING reusability.


Either way I wish them luck on their next attempt later this month.

>>7347755
>>7347772
Its very difficult for me to say one way or another without seriously evaluating your education/work experience. Actually, even with that info it would be hard since ME is not my specialty and I don't participate in hiring for those positions.

There are many examples of applicants who based on resumes seem very competitive but end up not being selected, the opposite is also true, although to a lesser extent.

In general I feel that SpaceX takes the application process very seriously and I don't think you should fear about not hearing back unless its obvious that you put no effort into your application. If you send in an application, you will hear back one way or the other. I know for a fact that we keep resumes on file even for applicants who aren't hired and we have offered jobs to people at later dates.

Are you located in CA? If you decide to apply you would be well served by knowing about current SpaceX hardware, general company goals and the challenges we are trying to address that face the industry as a whole as well as SpaceX specifically.

We've had some turnover in the recent past in our HR/recruiting dept but I think they are generally fairly competent and Elon is pretty active in forcing them to look for the best candidates regardless of background.

The company is too large for this now but back when I was hired Elon was still personally reviewing each applicant that was going to be offered a job and would occasionally sit in on interviews even for lower level positions.

You don't have much to loose in applying aside from a bit of time. The in-person interviews can be brutal and if you make it that far then at the very least you will learn to interview well even if a position isn't ultimately offered.

>>7347845
Thanks for the response, what you have said is encouraging. I am not in CA, but I would rather be there, have a sizeable savings, and would gleefully relocate. I will do some homework and find a suitable position and apply. Thanks

>>7347464
>>7347404
>>7347403
>>7347392
Samefagging PR spotted.

>>7345998
Underrated post

>>7346583

>We

You and a handful of other people - which could be just you - are not the majority you should be speaking for.

>>7346507
The sun, oxygen and nitrogen are not respected.

Respect cannot be the appreciation of the practical chain of events that lead to good.

Therefore respect is a selective appreciation of admirable qualities in people.

Unsurprisingly, /sci/ does not respect any trait Musk as as he has displayed no scientific aptitude.

And because this is a Peruvian gold molding forum if you don't respect someone you talk shit about them

>>7346529
>current system causes high risk/high reward system in being an entrepreneur
>this is justification for that system

That's an odd definition of justice. It resembles a lottery.

If you mean the definition of just being people get equal to what they give, that makes more sense, and it is in line with your examples.

Then there's the question of how to evaluate the giving and receiving. Does risk constitute value? Yes, it sounds like it should, because he might lose something, but then it contradicts the just system where he would get what he risked in equal value. So you cannot mean just to be getting what you give equally in money.

So what do you mean

>>7346800
>control the "little voice" in your head

What does that mean?

Musk works harder and is more disciplined and dedicated than probably any 30 of us shitposters combined. And that's his benchmark for judging his employees.

>>7349033
control your subconsciousness

>>7346359

Why did Elon Musk get a hair transplant when he's worth over a billion?

Is he really that insecure?

>>7349128
>why do people want to look good?

Are you really that autistic?

>>7349419

>Being so beta you feel the need to pay for having hair rearranged on your scalp.

>>7349425
If you had that much money you wouldn't hesitate to do it. It's not like you're enhancing yourself, just getting back was once was yours.

>>7349452
insecure poor baldlet detected.

>>7347959
>I am not in CA, but I would rather be there, have a sizeable savings, and would gleefully relocate
are you talking about their hawethorne location? your options might be places like inglewood or long commute if you don't want to spend more than 1300 per month to rent a 1 bedroom apartment.

>>7349493
> filthy neckbeard detected

>>7345998
>philosopher major here
>endless hours just scratching the toilet makes you wish you studied maths or physics instead
fucking kek

>>7346800
i don't want to believe it
>triggers on his board
It looks like something I made in 4th grade computer class ;_;

>>7346191
>how hard is it to give him a patch of land in the nevada desert to land in?
Cant overfly anywhere populated. Also it would be Texas or mexico not Nevada due to physics.
>why is he putting up with this shit? why hasn'#t he asked russia for permission to land in siberia?

See the huge pile of bullshit called ITAR, the same illegal laws they are manipulating to stop gun discussions online.

>>7349514
Not everyone considers $1300 a month a lot of money.

Sure, its more than what some might pay living at home with their parents but its no that bad anon.

elon musk is homo
proof: he wasn't born in america
qed

>>7346203
>>7346217

Musk couldn't get real engineers when he started. He designed the falcon 1 and 9.0 himself. That's why he is CTO.

He was called crazy risked 100 million of his own money on SpaceX everyone said it would fail. Everyone who hates on Elon at this point is just a hater with no leg to stand on.

I half think we got ULA shills in the thread.

>>7349620
1200€/month is a fucking mansion in most german cities.

>>7346522
>>7346518
He built his companies up from nothing by his hard work and long hours. Just investing is not even what venture capitalists do as they still play a role in management. Just investing is what day traders and other leaches do. Musk is a builder a mover and shakers of industries. He risked big and almost lost it all but where many others tried and failed he pulled it off because he is better than the rest he worked harder than the rest and was smarter than the rest.

>>7349633
Last I checked most German cities aren't in California.

Tell me anon, what does 1200 euros get you in Yemen?

>>7349648
i wasn't attacking anon's statement, just wanted to spout out some fun facts.

>>7346013
haven't we all been

haven't we all...

>>7349663
Np, all in jest.

Can 1200 euros really get you a lot in Germany?

Are your big cities really expensive?

>>7349666
I lived in a 105 m^2 apartement in a new building in the bar district of a city with a population of 400.000 and paid 816€/month.
1200€ could easly a modern 150m^2 apartement in a good location (except for a few citys, like munich for example).

>>7349692
Thanks for the info.

That sounds pretty nice. CA is ridiculously pricey.

>>7349666
>>7349692
with the exception of munich


land is generally cheaper because things arent very centralized here. its more smaller cities.
way different from downtown + shitton of sprawl.

>>7349629
>Musk designed falcon 1 and 9 himself
Citation needed

>risking a lot of money means you should get even more money in return
Do Americans think this
Why would anyone encourage this lottery

If your investment doesn't pan out you lose everything you invested and for the few that does pan out you receive income thousands of times greater than the a middle class person when poverty still exists. It works out for a few people then fucks everyone else over


It's literally the worst part of capitalism.

>>7349643
>hard work and long hours
Like all his employees who's getting literally a millionth of his income every year?


>shaker of industries mover of worlds worked harder than the rest risked big pulled it off when others failed
why are you writing his eulogy

>>7349666
>>7349692
>>7349704
>>7349692
Don't know which city he leaves in, but imho it is a bit more expensive. I live on 42 m^2 in a city with approx. 250.000 people and pay 670 €/month. It really depends. Generally speaking: Eastern Germany is cheap, prices increase a bit in Western Germany from north to south. All the really big cities are quite the same (exception Munich, which is by far the worst concerning prices). Mind you, 100.000+ people is concerning a big city in Germany.

>>7346507
Realize it? Learn some proper english. I assume you mean to implement something or to turn something into a "product".

The engineer would not get money to build something if there was nothing in it for the backer. So many cool things that can be built, but unless there is a sure fire way to profit - it just won't be done. The flaw is not the engineers' attitudes, it's in the way that money works. All that talent wasted. For what? Usually ensuring that rich people stay rich.

>>7346672
Satan is also a scape goat for things out of one's control. But kind of the other way around. Usually attributed the bad things.

>>7346675
It's just a way to dodge having to explain the truth. If there is anything to it how they got lucky why would they not want to keep it to themselves?

>>7348280
What is an admirable quality if not an ability to make fruitful practical chain of events unfold?

>>7349033
Realize what is pulling your thoughts and attentions and what may be the objective behind.

>>7349425
It's his fucking job looking good and being exposed everywhere. He'd be mismanaging his job if he didn't try to look good.

>>7350211
His employees didn't risk their entire fortunes on what was considered by all to be a pipe dream. But that doesn't matter. You're asking
>why isn't everyone who works hard a millionaire
and that's because not everything is equal.

>>7350269
> what was considered by all

Don't assume that everyone who speaks agrees. In general there's often a large portion of smart people keeping silent and thinking

> Yeah hope those idiots believe that crap.

>>7350273
Sure, whatever you believe. Doesn't change what I was saying.

>>7350209
>risking a lot of money means you should get even more money in return

>Do Americans think this
>Why would anyone encourage this lottery

It's just normal cost/reward. As risk goes up payoff has to follow or why would anyone take the risk to begin with.

People always say that one of the best ways to make money is work hard. Although it's definitely helpful I'd always argue that the most important thing is understanding your market and risk-reward assessment.

I work with a lot of first time "entrepreneurs" who bring forward proposals that are just so disconnected from reality that it hurts my brain.

>>7350280
Disconnected from reality you say. If you told people 30 years ago that the internet is anything like it is today, most would laugh at you or think you were crazy.

If you are comparing proposals with your view of "reality" as it is today, then you are doing something wrong.

>>7350269
I'm not asking, I'm stating that not everything is equal, and it's so badly unequal that's 1/7th of the world is in poverty.

>his employees didn't risk their entire fortunes
Even if you believe taking risks is equally valuable to hard work and merit, on practical grounds giving so much wealth to a few people shouldn't happen when there are people who are destitute

>>7350299
>Even if you believe taking risks is equally valuable to hard work and merit, on practical grounds giving so much wealth to a few people shouldn't happen when there are people who are destitute
I disagree. As long as civilization has existed their has been a hierarchy. All those at the top of this hierarchy are always richer than those at the bottom. This system selects those with luck, talent and intelligence to rise to the top, and brings those without these traits to the bottom. Society is continually selecting it's leaders through wealth. There are times where the existing hierarchy has been destroyed but it's replacement has always been on the same principal. Those who have more wealth were merely selected by society to be leaders, and those without wealth have been selected to be followers. I don't see why we should artificially change this system to support your moral beliefs.

>>7350299

Him not handing over wealth means 3000 people now have jobs as he had the means to setup a company. Much better then creating no jobs and giving finite handouts.

>>7350287
Also the things which drive skilled and motivated people and the things which drive money are not the same thing. This discrepancy can cause many a skilled person to lose motivation. And that's the worst that could happen - also to rich people. If smart youngsters lose the drive to do their best... that is super super bad for any society which strives to be technically advanced. What can their money buy, if the skilled people are unwilling to help?

>>7350307
You miss one important dimension. Those at the bottom usually strive to get out of their position. If they can't get upwards, they will try to sidestep. To places where the laws are not harassing them as badly as in their current situation. Any society with too bad of a hierarchy or too bad of a set of rules will start losing citizens.

>>7350313
The fact that we're locked in to things that aren't always as they should be via a fear of "Destroying jobs" or "makin' jobs!" is the clearest indication of how broken and utterly moronic our monetary and societal ideas about resources, really are.

If you're hungry and don't have a job, you can't kill anyone. You can't steal. You can't not pay taxes or they come take your property. You can't find a place to grow your own. You can't wander around the woods hunting. You're trapped and to survive, participation in society is not optional, it is mandatory. And a very poor use of people's capacity to do things, coupled with massive waste everywhere.

I just can't take it seriously. Cool, some jobs got made. There's a whole lot of jobs that oughta go and stay gone, but we can't even get that to happen. The fuck are we gonna do with this fucking mess when most of us can't even understand why it should be looked at as a mess to begin with.

>>7350318
I'm aware those at the bottom strive to get out by any means, and some to reach success through the drug trade, mafia or whatever, however that only proves my point, they just were selected in a less orthodox way. If they leave the country, it's just reducing the ones that weren't selected for, it's not a major concern since there are so many of them. If we lost those at the top we would have a societal issue as now our leaders would be second or even third rate and as a country we couldn't compete with those with first rate leaders.

Let me make it more clear because I feel we have an ideological divide, I don't view those at the bottom as being as valuable as those at the top. If that's something you fundamentally disagree with there's no point in continuing this, we won't get anywhere.

>>7350321
Yes it is a waste in many other aspects as well. That fear (of losing our job or not getting a new one) should be the motivator keeping us job hunting - in a society where more and more of the workload on humans depend on being creative. Anyone knows it's fucking difficult to be creative with constant fear. So likely the performance of the people who do have a job is worsened and without doubt the health of everyone is affected.

But hey! That's got to create some jobs in health care business. ;)

>>7350307
This is a very myopic mindset. Things you have not factored in:
-Ecology a population resides in
-Group and social dynamics
-Opportunistic and situational functioning
-Different manners of intelligence and fitness
-Lack of meaning in luck as a descriptor when the situation is viewed as one whole

Wealth, whether of followers, of power and control, or of resources, is not mediated by intelligence or even really talent. In our species it's mostly about your starting conditions, and exploiting certain cracks in the system that already exists, which again, isn't a matter of talent nor intelligence. It highlights a different framework of value; not everyone is willing to waste their life on such clutter.

Your oversimplifications are tripped to a point of unacceptable error. Drop the supposed connection between viability and wealth, it's tripping your reasoning process up.

>>7350325
It is a major concern for any society if the selection process stops having to do with merit and people with merit end up at the bottom. If there is something we should have learned from history is that Always seems to happen to Every society ( sooner or later ).

>>7350333
Of course. Because those who are the most of a threat to people at the top are skilled people with merit who disagree.

>>7345982
explain, fucking retard

>>7345998
underrated

>>7350333
That's currently not the case in the US overall. They lacked luck or had intelligence/talent in areas that weren't fit for society and so were not selected.

>>7350329
If you could expand on what you mean with these I'd be happy to reevaluate my theory. I'm just not sure exactly where exactly you are heading with these.

>>7350338
I'm fairly tired and not long for remaining awake. If you could ask for specifics, I will expand.

>>7350338
>They lacked luck

GOAT

>or had intelligence/talent in areas that weren't fit for society

That's just a more positive sounding re-write of exactly what I wrote.

>>7350340
"Not fit for society" = Perceived as a threat.

I see too many people overusing the popular meme "acting like a retard" over here. You should show a little more respect for someone like Elon Musk.

>>7350343
He's just a poster boy. No use raging on the poor poster boy.

>>7350339
When you say Group and social dynamics, I assume you're referring to things like inner city youths are not encouraged to excel in school because the people around them do not expect them to, right?
And for Opportunistic and situational functioning, I'm not sure what you mean by situational functioning.

>>7350340
You can have a lot of talent and intelligence in how to be a school shooter, these people will never rise to the top though is what I was getting at. Society largely picks those that can most help it move in the direction it wants to, if there are otherwise excellent people who want to move it in a different direction, they will never be picked. However, no matter the direction, society picks the most lucky, talented and intelligent people for this purpose.

>>7350344
>> Calling people "poor poster boy".
Did you mean the angry young man or Muskl?!

>>7350343
>Respect
Why would I? I don't know the guy.

He sees the profit (and more or less economics redefining implications) of mining nearby asteroids. He is also likely acutely aware of our nature and the very real possibility of widespread ecological collapse in the near future.

ie, being stuck here not only sucks on a personal level, it's foolish and likely guaranteed short term extinction. We need to get off this planet and spread like a disease, anyone who is honest and dares use their mind for much, realizes this. People have been realizing this for 100+ years in a somewhat specific sense, that specificity has only grown.

You people are fucked, I'll tell ya. Your post isn't the only stupid shit I consistently see on this board. I'm out of here, before I get attached.

>>7350345

Dammit, my gun is jammed! This trigger usually works :'(

Yes we know that you try and trigger people to do that shit too. Makes you feel damn powerful right? Gives a boner, doesn't it?

"Society" is not an entity. "Society" doesn't want shit.

>>7350350
Mining asteroids seems unrealistic enough and sure does divert attention enough from business that could damage my source of income, so I'm fairly OK with it.

>>7350351
>"Society" is not an entity.
Society is composed of people, each of which has wants. The sum of these wants is the will of society. It's easy to see, if this wasn't the case presidential elections would be decided by a coin flip.

>>7350360
One choice every 4 or 5 years. Yep that should be enough.

>>7350345
>When you say Group and social dynamics, I assume you're referring to things like inner city youths are not encouraged to excel in school because the people around them do not expect them to, right?
Group and social dynamics are omnipresent. You exist, you are (probably) human, and therefore with other humans (and many animals or even inanimate objects if you choose to extend it that far), they will always be present in some form. When it comes to humans, we have certain channels, cognitive biases and heuristics, desires, tendencies, gaping logical holes, etc that apply to us and how we reason and function in groups. This isn't factoring in perceived population pressure, resource scarcity, etc.

Etc. There is too much to be said and I think you understand on your own. Individuals are composed of their own logic, and shaped by their environment to an extent, but there is a clustering. People gain and keep power because of these tendencies, these environmental affordances. It is not because they are truly fit, they have just gathered and aligned the right situational factors to not be removed by force. Hence, what we have modern day. There is a fine line to be walked and if you look at the pattern of conflict throughout history, it becomes clear where these lines roughly are.

Goodnight.

>>7350361
So do you have anything to say?

so long as there exists an exponentially increasing population of dependent apes on humanity that a good portion of our population would rather give welfare to than travel the galaxy, space is a pipe dream

>>7350364
No, humans are stupid. I interact exclusively with small dogs of the chihuahua breed.

No seriously I do understand what you are saying and while it may have helped us work together and defend against Lions and Cheetahs at an earlier stage in evolution... nowadays, I'm convinced it fairly often works against or even stops change and increased knowledge.

To get unique ideas one needs exclusive input to the brain which means must do odd or different things than the group. So there is a balance between being in a group and sticking out just enough to get a new perspective to bring back in around the campfire. If you stick too far out you are no longer part of the group and then whatever awesomeness you discovered no one would be around to hear of. Which can be fine for you as a person if you have a very peculiar personality. But it is really not any good for humankind if that knowledge is lost.

Good Night.

>>7350365
I think I've said enough, don't you?

>>7350350
While you sit in your mom's basement Elon actually does something. Something useful for humanity, he inspires people, make them dream again, but it's ok, continue groaning about everything and try despise anything that smells like success. And do nothing significant in your life.

>>7350384
Buttmad cocker spaniel detected.

>>7350390
Yes of course he does an important job. Keeping people inspired and with a will to do their best is really important. Maybe the most important thing in a society. But thinking that he personally achieves all those things is just crazy talk.

>>7350364
A note of clarification. I am apt to view us, collectively, as faulty and deeply broken, because to me and the perspective I am focusing on and viewing things from, we don't work properly. However, ultimately when you strip this bias, we're just macro globs of action and reaction that comes together in a certain way and towards certain patterns. Relative to our average I/O, certain results occur.

We're like blocks. While we do certainly fit together, and it's just the way things play out for us based on what we are, we're not really cut out for longevity. Our "simply being" looks more like a flare that is going to rapidly dim soon, and no different than any other flare, this is just what we are, and just what we do.

That's as lucid as I'll probably get.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmmtkOPGMj8

>>7350390
You didn't actually respond to anything I said. You fabricated some stuff and responded from your own angle, which is real neat and all, but fairly meaningless for me.

Not sure what you expect back after never saying anything.

>>7345975
OP,

I worked initially as a consultant seconded to an American defense company (I'm a Brit). That company eventually hired me away from my consulting firm. Aerospace is one of the most competitive and cut-throat industries on the planet. Everyone, from the engineers and research scientists to executives and sales think they're industry rock stars. In many ways this is true. Defense companies pay very very well and therefore attract some extreme talent, but be prepared for some truly immense egos and byzantine internal company politics.

I heard Boeing is okay. Lockheed, Northrop, BAE, Raytheon, among others, are cut throat.

2 years up or out is what you need to keep in your mind. If you don't get promoted every 2 years, you're out or relegated to that position indefinitely, which will drive a person out.

>>7350307
>why this system should be artifically changed to suit my beliefs
I thought it'd be nice if the poor stopped being poor and could afford food and medicine and shit
Maybe an education so they wouldn't have to be illiterate
Better sewage facilties and living conditions too

>>7350646
If others perceive they have to fear for their income and fight amongst each other for the cookies...

Then they will spend less time questioning why I have become so wealthy.

>>7350666

But also; it should not be so that smart young people feel it's no use and their talents are wasted. Because then my money would be worthless. A king who is as rich as half the country would still be poor if he got a disease which there were no doctors either skilled enough (or willing) to treat.

Lol, nice numbers there. by the way

>>7350313
Best to invest in infrastructure and education of third world countries than lining your own pockets with thousands of working class citizens worth of paychecks

>>7346583

>Underrated post

since when did businessman and smart investments give researchers starry eyes, it's just boring mundane shit that happens to be a by product of this socioeconomic system we created until we create a better one where more idiots will get starry-eyed over some other shit

Too all ze people bitching aboot wealth disparity because [thinly veiled mind you] it isn't fair:
Life isn't fair.
I won't even bother with going into how we couldn't make it fair, we don't have the time or the motivation. That's all auxiliary. Fact is, life isn't fair.

Now that that's out of the way..
The role of a country is, like a workers union, to benefit its members wherever it can. If this means making war it makes war, if this means being at peace it makes peace. These are not pleasant things, but like biological organisms a state which shoots itself is replaced by one which doesn't. What we see around us in the world today is just the result of this over a few thousand years.

>>7350703
I agree. Life isn't fair. I don't think anyone would argue against you on that.

But any successful society must be able to handle to get skilled people into positions where they are put to good use. What we are arguing about is not so much if life is fair or not - but primarily how to put the "resources" to good use.

>>7350930
Some are of the opinion that the current system (whatever it is) does this sufficiently well, and some argue that the socioeconomical drivers are not very constructive for the type of labour in demand nowadays.

>>7346666

>>7350953
Yes, assuming the person has a want to do something, locus of control can be an explanation for why the person does not manage into a better position to achieve that something. But if there isn't even a want to achieve something. Then the problem is something different.

>>7350999
Man, you managed to turn the beast upside down. LOL.

>>7350930
Western societies are, on the whole, quite successful.

Somehow they managed to remain somewhat stable and yet not stagnate like those of China and the Arabic/Islamic ones. Anyway though. I think most societies are objectively shit, and only manage to stick around because all the others are also objectively shit. Even the winner of the special olympic isn't very good, but all the contestants are retarded so it looks like a mighty struggle.

>>7350999
Usually if in men, this demotivation is in majority of cases caused by lack of pussy and there are natural ways to solve this. I.e. prescribing blind dates or going to the pub twice a week.

>>7351011
Depends on how we measure success. We tend to turn a blind eye to the stuff which we suck at.

Has China stagnated? Their development during the last 30 years is really staggering.

>>7350999
If you have NO motivation to do anything you have an entirely separate personal issue altogether. I think we all experience that issue at some point(s) in our lives. Many call this a midlife or existential crisis.

>>7351052
Wait this is not logical consistent.

> you have an entirely separate personal issue altogether.

>I think we all experience that issue at some point(s) in our lives. Many call this a midlife or existential crisis.

Thus not a personal issue.

>>7351030
>Their development during the last 30 years is really staggering.
That they were a country of mostly peasant farmers up until 40 years ago suggests that yes, they did stagnate. They get props for having writing really early on though.

>>7350953
Which is my locus of control if we make things happen to us?

Also this is a false dichotomy both taken together are inherently true; either alone inherently false.

The reason is that we are no different from our environment and it affects us as we it. For us to effect it without it us would mean we were apart from it, and vice versa.

>>7346359
holy shit he improved. how did he manage to change even the shape of his face?

>>7351173

plastic surgery.

>>7351111
>we are no different from our environment
wat

>>7351190
To me you are part of the environment, so if I can effect you, you can effect me, since I'm part of your environment.

>>7351198
This means that the flow of things happening to us and us doing things has to go both ways, essentially.
Unless you're different to other people.

>>7351111
That's a popular one

> you dragged it upon yourself.
> you should have understood that acting in this way would cause others to do this.

But how they act is up to them. They are no mindless robots any more than you or me.

>>7351210
In some cases you do drag it upon yourself though.

Case in point, go shoot at a cop see what happens.
What you do is not totally removed from what others do, just as it doesn't wholly decide it either.

sorry for shilling my own thread

but we're forming a team from /sci/entists to participate in SpaceX Hyperloop Student Competition

if you're interested, we're having a kickoff meeting this week: >>7350854

Whenever SpaceX or Tesla or Musk is discussed it is always followed by a posse of Muskycocksuckers.

There is no way to discuss anything about Musk without constant shitflinging by these Muskycocksuckers as witnessed in this thread.

>>7350280
>I work with a lot of first time "entrepreneurs" who bring forward proposals that are just so disconnected from reality that it hurts my brain.

please elaborate-my company is in the "shortlist" in getting accepted to a widely known accelerator, and I'm paranoid as fuck that we're like that.

>>7351081
Lol, good job on completely missing the point. Do you feel smart now for picking apart insignificant semantics?

>>7350280
>Tell everybody I have a plan to make a certain device
>Nobody takes me seriously
>Some months later see the same concept on Kickstarter
>They raised $70,000 and their version isn't even as good as my idea
You never know man, just gotta try everything. People in Britain thought the turbojet was way out before the Germans proved it to work. Ironically I am British and the company that simultaneously thought of my idea is German. This is why Germans are the kings of engineering, because they have a "can do" attitude unlike the stuffy Brits.

>>7346191

>Guys, why doesn't Elon Musk land his painstakingly developed and researched $1bn+ rocket stuffed to the gills with proprietary technology on Russian soil? Everybody knows Russia is filled with super cool guys that respect stuff like property rights and IP laws, there's nothing that could go wrong!

>>7351173
Most likely surgery. Obviously he got the hair plugs too.

>>7350266
Yea look at all the hair on Steve Ballmer and Steve Jobs head.

>>7351173
lower body fat and not smiling can do that