/sci/ - Science & Math

>is it worth the pay?

if that's the question then probably not

>>7210458
Fuck off jew
Practice medicine if you want a meaningful lifestyle, not pay

>>7210478
I'm sure you have a VERY meaningful lifestyle.

>>7210458
/sci/ will probably underestimate how hard medicine is. There is more application of science than /sci/ claims, and a shit tonne of memorisation. My friend studying medicine works more than 50 hours per week.

>>7210505
>memorization
and this is why medicine is not science please fuck off

>>7210514

>>7210514
shut the fuck up you faggot. literally every single engineering field is memorizing how to use CAD. it's such gay as faggotry.

>>7210505
oh fuck you are right. I forgot that the more time it takes to do something, the more intellectually challenging it is.

Go shadow a theoretical physicist for a day, then a doctor, and see who you have a harder time following.

>>7210505
>My friend studying medicine works more than 50 hours per week
that sounds brutal

>>7210558
I hope this is sarcasm.

>>7210563
sorry to disappoint

>>7210505
i'm in med school and studied biochem and physics in UG.

i can say that most of the stuff on /sci/ seems foreign to me, especially the math.

MD isn't as difficult as Ph.D's imo. i am just versatile and good with standardized tests (39 on MCAT)

but i am new to /sci/ so it may just be posturing. idk

>>7210505
>Just 50 hours a week.
That's 7-5 in the week plus 5 hours in the weekend. I hope you meant "lectures, labs, tuts and hospital practice" and not total work hours.

>>7210458
>go to 3rd world country
>easily get a spot
>study med
>use international books to gain knowlegde on the same level as a 1st world meds
>get your degree
>go back to where you came from
Thats how a friend of mine does it

>>7210689
Um, no. Add spending thousands to take the licensing exams, pray you get rotations as a student in a 1st world country, and pray even harder you land a residency spot in the 1st world country.

Medical training doesn't end at 4 years. Factor in residency, and then you have a start for total years.

>>7210689
>>go back to where you came from

Ahh, what shit third world country do you live in? If you come from a third world country and move to a first world country with a medical degree you need to RESIT the exams in order to practice. Pro tip, that's why a lot of taxi drivers are indian ex doctors, they couldn't pass the first world med exams.

>>7210553

Research funding for theoretical physics <<< Research funding for medicine.

Keep your field obtuse, and your society and peer reviewers will be less likely both to understand and fund you.

>>7210553

New hypothesis:
Poor ability to communicate or educate by its members are a major factor for theoretical physics (or substitute difficult STEM field) being viewed as difficult.

In the research realm, a failure of others to understand your field is really a badge of shame.

Simply for less funding, prestige, and for the chance for your work to be succeeded by future generations.

>>7210716
a badge of shame would be generalizing an entire field and perusing research as a mere source for prestige and funding. failure to understand and failure to prove are separate matters. go look at the proof for the Poincare conjecture. it is no less prestigious due to complexity.

>>7210720
research does not take place in a vacuum.

it takes place among peers and with replication.

it is a badge of shame if you cannot communicate your work for others to understand.

I see considerable effort by mathematicians to communicate a basic understanding of the Poincare conjecture. Otherwise, the rest of us would not even recognize it as important.

Medicine is the world's oldest guild system that doesn't want to make the education more efficient/modern because the artificial length and study of the programs helps to control wages.

So much knowledge that will ultimately be forgotten and unused for their careers. Specialists could easily halve the time they spend in school.

The distinction between PA and M.D. for general medicine has been increasingly blurred. The PA even spends more time with the patients themselves. And that is 2-3 years of schooling.

The M.D. seems to just be for presence of mind for the patient and the "shock absorber" for liability.

>>7210592
Did you study a calculus-based Physics course? If you covered freshman Physics a good amount of the Math here should be friendly to handle, maybe it's just slightly different styles. What kind of Mathematical background do medicine students usually have? Do you all take the standard calculus series?

>>7210478
That's all good and well for you, comrade. But even if you love something, you need to make a good living.

>>7210728

The US requirements are easily found on the AAMC website:

https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/requirements/

As you can see, advanced math is usually not expected.

But considering how competitive pre-meds are, it is not uncommon for them to do some advanced math courses as a prereq for other advanced science courses.

>>7210727

I have worked with PA's.

Yes, they're very smart. They're trained to go through the motions of mimicking MD's.

However, when they get complex cases or I grill them, they're understanding of the mechanisms are noticeably absent.

I would not trust them (and neither do hospitals or the legal system) with unsupervised care.

>>7210709
Indians that claim to be doctors usually are not "real" ones. In India anyone can call himself a doctor and recommend medications. Lot's of "doctors" barelly have a high school diploma. People go see them because they are the cheapest aside from Government doctors, but the doctors working for the Gov usually does not even bother to show to work, same for the nurses. They get paid anyway. And good real private doctors are too expensive.

So the self-proclaimed doctors in your taxi is usually a fraud.

>>7210747

And generalists refer to specialists if they don't understand the current problems. They aren't responsible for the diagnosis or follow up.

>I would not trust them (and neither do hospitals or the legal system) with unsupervised care.

No, the insurance companies do not. Because they view the convoluted education process as affording them less liability. The PA is doing most of what the doctor does in general practice. And they have been given more and more tasks from the doctor because he has less and less time to spend with patients. Between PAs and Nurses, the Doctor just rubberstamps most of the routine stuff he sees and refers the more elaborate/difficult cases.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/30/for-new-doctors-8-minutes-per-patient/

There is a lot of pointless time wasted assuming that all doctors need ALL the basics for whatever they decide to pursue. There is no reason for this anymore.

You'd guarantee less burnout if you decreased the amount of pointless money and time they have to give to such programs. But the powers that be, namely AMA, won't ever consider changing this. Because lowering artificial barriers would ultimately lead to reduced wages when this is BACKWARDS thinking since the cost of med school is pro-rated based on the expectation of your future salary.

>>7210748
I have encountered my fair share of former MD's from other countries.

It's not uncommon. CNN did an article on it.

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/16/why-your-waiter-has-an-m-d/

Bottom line: the US system does not make it easy for foreign medical graduates.

>>7210750
>And generalists refer to specialists if they don't understand the current problems. They aren't responsible for the diagnosis or follow up.

True. I nearly pop a vein on a daily basis with the understanding of generalists (based on what they refer to me).

>There is a lot of pointless time wasted assuming that all doctors need ALL the basics for whatever they decide to pursue. There is no reason for this anymore.

While I am involved in educating students and residents, I will not claim expertise in knowing what's required.

Still, watching doctors in other specialties make deadly mistakes because they clearly weren't paying attention in medical school classes is disturbing.

>>7210458
>how difficult is med school?
"Difficult" is subjective, but nothing in medicine approaches the difficulty of, say, M-theory.
However, overall it's soul-crushingly difficult due to the extremely inefficient didactic process.
Note that this isn't a bug, it's a feature: it's why medicine, unlike "more difficult" fields, can GUARANTEE that you will make the big bucks: there will always be a severe shortage of doctors compared to what there would be otherwise. See >>7210727 and >>7210750 as well.

Also, this varies depending on whether you're planning to do it in the US or Europe.
The US has an even more inefficient and morale-destroying med education system, but this gets you an even higher salary and even better job security.

>>7210478
>more than 50 hours per week.
That's sugarcoating it, plan for at least 60 during pre-med (in the US) and more during actual med school
Don't even think about jobs or hobbies unless you're begging for disappointment

>>7210707
>pray even harder you land a residency spot in the 1st world country
There is almost no chance you will land a US residency from a foreign med school, don't kid yourself
You can't rely on that unless you want to end up like the guy from the article in >>7210756

>>7210775

Heh. I don't disagree about the difficulty with foreign medical graduates.

Interesting to be cited by myself in a response to me.

>>7210458

>how difficult is med school?

The difficulty is in the sheer volume of information, not the rigor of the concepts.

>is it worth the pay?

If you will only be able to derive professional satisfaction from treating patients, then yes.

>i hear spine surgeons make like 7 figures.

Sure, many do. Stay in private practice, try to get the hospital to cover malpractice.

>>7210458
>Is it worth the pay
>pay
Land of the Free.

>>7210775

>>7210458
aren't the requirements for med school insanely high for undergrads?

how is there a shortage of doctors? The medical field is insanely competitive which is how people end up as HS Bio teachers
>>7211118
i think you interpreted that sentence wrong

1st year med student in Europe, here. If you need to be spoon-fed, this means that I can't talk about the education in the US, nor can I talk about the 2nd through 6th years.

The first year has been piss-easy. I've barely gone to any lectures. I've procrastinated a lot and hardly even opened a book up until about 2 weeks ago. I've got the 1st year final exam coming up in a little over 1 month, and I'm already almost done prepping for it.

High work load (toplel) aside, medicine is almost completely about memorization. Obviously you will need to be able to apply logic to what you've memorized, but if you've got an IQ above 90 and you have the faculty to think and reason, this shouldn't really be a problem.

Seeing as there's hardly any understanding involved what-so-ever, I'm fairly sure even at this point that I want to get a PhD, so that I can actually be intellectually stimulated instead of using my brain as a poor substitution for a SSD.

I'd rather study physics or maths to be frank (because those subjects are interesting at all points in time, whereas medicine starts out boring as fuck and slowly becomes more interesting), but I don't want to work as a high school teacher.

>>7210458
Well. This thread is full of shit information and a bunch of autists trying to sound vindicated/important for wasting all of their time learning high order maths no one will pay them to utilize.

>implying theoretical physics being more obscure/"difficult" (lel) means anything or has any relevancy to OP's question....

Take it from someone who was rejected from medical school, dated a girl who went to (and did not reapply a second time because of how stupid her experience was) medical school, is friends with medical students, and ended up going to nursing school. I've observed about a dozen various surgeries (from oncoological to plastic surgery), I've worked 200 hours in the ER, and I've seen rural medicine practice as well. I guarantee there are many more experienced people but I've experience a fair amount so here goes:

Med school is bullshit. These are the only people who have any idea what they are talking about: >>7211099 >>7210775 >>7210727

If you're smart and you learned anything during gen sci. classes, biochem, anatomy physiology etc. the first two years will be easy for you. It's 99% a waste though when it comes to actual practice. You'll be better for learning it but you won't use it, let me explain.

Let's take a concept like how antibiotics work. You'll learn about how every antibiotic works in near obnoxious detail, then when you actually enter residency/ the field you'll forgo anything interesting you've learned and you'll just spend time memorizing which drug to prescribe for which suspected infection, aka you don't do any real thinking or use the information you spent hours learning to pass obnoxiously difficult tests (not to mention you're paying $40,000 a semester for info. you won' use). 90% is just, coordinate these symptoms to these positive lab tests to prescribe this prescription. It's a fucking flow chart. Snore.

>>7211230

You could theoretically use the info you learned to educate patients, but you'll find that 95% of your patients are so fucking stupid, and lack even the most basic understanding of their body and how it works (and gen science) that you can't even start that conversation.

Combine all of this with being in school for at the very least 6 years (more if you specialize) all of the loans, all of the responsibility (with little real power) the poor job satisfaction and extremely high depression/suicide rate, the fact that you're filtered in a garbage system where you don't really get to make decisions and you're terrified of crippling malpractice suits all the time so you over prescribed and over-order tests.... not to mention doctors work their asses off. I watched a descending colon resection for metastatic testicular cancer where the two surgeons got in to the region where they thought the cancer was supposed to be.... and couldn't find it. Cue the next 6 HOURS of two surgeons yelling at everyone while scoping through this guys intestine trying to find the right place to make the cut. Being a doctor sucks.

Being a PA is probably worse though since you have like 90% of the problems doctors have and you do all the bitch work. Same goes for nursing, being a nurse blows, except for the ER which is pretty cool.

There are of course exceptions, I've watched a genius infectious disease doc work and he was a baller and actually gets to use his brain/is called in on cool shit. If you can snag that kind of gig it would be worth it. Or you can be a dermatologist/orthodontist and do nothing and get paid a lot.... but then you'll be a guaranteed faggot so I guess there's that.

>>7211247
Oh yeah. Also, the application process is a mega retarded, mega expensive crap shoot.

My ex gf, while only getting a 30 on the MCAT (which is a fair score, but not great), was a 4.0 4 year varsity college athlete at a DII school, did research in fucking rotterdam for a summer, did research every other summer at a hospital in diabetes and shadowed all sorts of docs/had connections... and was rejected from every school she applied to but two.

My friend got a 37 on the MCAT, 4.0, musically gifted, did all of his volunteer, shadowing, research etc... rejected from all 16 schools he applied to.

This is after paying the $400 or so to take the MCAT, paying the ~$800 in application fees, writing out all the apps, doing the BS essays, and paying out of pocket for airfare/lodging to attend interviews at schools...

*my numbers are not perfectly accurate. Look them up though if you're curious, it's crazy expensive, also look up satisfaction/depression/suicide rates, docs are crazy high... I think surprisingly dentists have one of the highest suicide rates???

Hope this helps, OP. Good luck not killing yourself or ending up in the poor house if you go to med school!

>>7210728
no. premed prereq physics is not calc-based. i went through calc iii, but only calc ii was required for my biochem degree. this was many years ago though so i don't remember any calculus.

>>7210742
only calc I is needed and premeds that are competitive would rather take easy courses that boost their GPA than difficult courses.

The debt sucks a fucking dick but it is doable, and pretty easy to pay off if you have a spouse as a physician to. Even 600k between 2 people making 200-250k minimum is not bad, and the job stability is very, very convenient compared to other jobs. But it is not that great of a job and healthcare is fucked up.

>>7210553
yeah but which one can make a decent living lol

>>7211099
>The difficulty is in the sheer volume of information, not the rigor of the concepts.
why do people who have never studied medicine say this

>>7211268
Were your friends whites or Asians? If they aren't, then would I be fucked as a Mexican? I haven't taken the new MCAT yet, but on a practice one my school had, I got a 42 (old version). My GPA isn't a 4.0, but I have had several jobs over the summer + research and volunteering.

>>7210505
Twenty hours a week plus course work easily reaches 50 hours a week. Med students need to suck it up.

>>7211268
Fuck
getting an MD seems like a bigger pain in the ass than getting professorship

>>7210747
>PAs
>However, when they get complex cases or I grill them, they're understanding of the mechanisms are noticeably absent.
Have you tried this with MDs?

A pretty high proportion of MDs can't even answer you if you ask them where the weight goes when you lose weight. So much for understanding of mechanisms.

Training in "fundamentals" is overrated. People just don't retain it. Ask some high-school grads over 30 to do some high-school geometry and algebra for you. They won't be able to do it unless they've kept working with it regularly, or have unusually sharp memories and minds.

The traditional ten-year MD training system should be reserved only for really elite educators, researchers, and specialists in difficult cases. It's ridiculous that PAs are called "PAs" rather than physicians, and can't work without MD supervision, especially since it's so often passive "supervision" where the MD does nothing but use his position to extract some of the PAs' earnings. And it's ridiculous how unimpressive people can become MDs and go around calling themselves "doctor", when their level of talent and skill is that of an ordinary tradesman.

Most physicians are fed more education than they can benefit from, so we can pretend that we're all getting care of by rare, special super-experts.

Engineers only take 4 years of school. We teach them to know their limitations, and to refuse to work outside them. Then we enforce that, holding them responsible if they don't. That's all you need to do.

>>7211268
Getting into medschool isn't even consistently merit-based.

While continuing to limit medschool admissions to keep MD incomes and employment high, they are deliberately picking a certain proportion of mediocre students.

Why? Because too many students are becoming specialists (because MDs collectively insist and arrange that specialists should get paid more). They want an underclass of plainly inferior students they can push into general practice. So after filling their quota for specialists, they reject high-performers in favor of some middling students.

That's not even getting into "diversity" admissions.

>>7210558
Protip: if you haven't done a 50+ hour week of study at least twice before completing undergrad, you're probably an underachiever who'll never success in research.

Also: 50 hours is working from 8am to 12.30pm and then to 13.30pm to 20.30pm, inlcunding pauses, from monday to friday. It's really not brutal once you get into it, It's just a lifestyle change.

>>7212091
>Engineers only take 4 years of school.
I mean, that's the minimum. It's what's required.

A lot of important engineers take ten years of training, by the time they get their P. Eng, just like MDs. But others become just as skillful through experience and study after graduation.

More importantly, people trained in engineering can turn out to be bad at it, and just go get another job, and it's not the end of the world. They've only put in four years, and they've got a very respectable degree that helps their employability outside of their training.

This flexibility is much better than the rigid, medieval system for producing MDs, which filters people primarily before medschool, and then hazes them mercilessly for years to create an appearance of high standards, but really rejects very few after the medschool admission.

>>7212106
>research

ahahahahahahahahahahaha faggot

>>7210458
people who usually go into med school for pay are pleb tier idiots who want to get rich while staying in a pampered salaried life style


>basically cough up CEO's without any ingenuity or spark

>>7211268
it might seem impressive but every single applicant has a CV padded to the brim with every extra curricular, achievement, experience and recommendation you can think of. which when you think of it is a failing of application processes in general in recent years which just forces people to pad their acheivments. barely anyone in highschool does anything for the love of it anymore just for how good it looks on paper

>>7211187
please don't start talking until you've reached clinical years at least

>>7212204
People who go into med only for pay usually don't make it

This entire thread is really amusing as an MD-PhD student, please continue your penis comparison.

As for the OP, it probably depends on the country you live in. For most countries in the world, doctors make a decent to high living, depending on your field of specialization,
Med school is fairly long: 6 years for countries with European system, 4 years of pre-med+4 years of med school for countries with North American system. And there is a lot of work involved and very little sleep (especially when you get to internship and residency), but that doesn't mean it is "difficult". Most countries make the acceptation difficult, but eventually the people who get in finish with an MD. I personally find it less difficult than several other degrees where most people don't even finish,

If you just want to make a lot of money, I am not sure that should be your first choice, since it take A LOT of years to start earning as a doctor. We are talking easily 14 years before you start making above average money for many countries and specializations.

>>7211948
Anybody?

>>7210540
Also sucking dicks.