/sci/ - Science & Math

>>7157075
I don't have choice in the manner with which I deal with it, and making no choice is a choice in itself

I embrace my inherent meaninglessness. It's okay, I guess.

>>7157075
What is the definition of free will? To be able to alter ones emotions by free will or even be entirely emotionless?

I can feel emotions but they are dulled really fast if I smell some manipulative intent around the corner.

>>7157248
Hope you don't have too big a nose then, bro.

>>7157075
By feeling in unison with the entire universe. All subjective feelings and consciousness may be determined by matter, but that does not mean absence of wonder and awe. On the contrary, sense of oneness with everything, your body, that tree, the sky, the stars, beginning, ending, all feels great, serene, and pleasant.

I focus entirely on accomplishments.

I care nothing about myself, but only the changes I make to the world.

Every time I remember that every thought in my head, every action i've done and will do, and everything that happens in entire universe was predetermined at the moment of the big bang, I just try to forget about it otherwise ill get depressed really bad

>>7157075
>Now that free will seems to be an illusion
Define "free will". Seriously, there is no point where any conceivable definition of it could have made sense.

>along with the sense of self,
Then what is it a sense of?

I think we can all agree that free will means that you could have done otherwise given the same circumstances.

Since modern science has raised a serious challange to determinism IMO humans have free will.

But wheter or not we have it, there is no benefit of believing you don't, unless you want to be sad cunt.
That is the impression I get from Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett when I listen to them talk.

Don't be a sad cunt! Be a Sick cunt!

>>7157494
>I think we can all agree that free will means that you could have done otherwise given the same circumstances.
No we can't, because else it's just random.

>>7157495
What about self-determined?
Quantum Zeno effect + consciousness. But that is just a guess.

>>7157353
I dislike this feeling, a lot in fact.

I like the feeling of being a discrete entity with a discrete beginning and end. Being nothing more than the most insignificant fraction of an insignificant world in an insignificant galaxy in an insignificant yet timeless cosmos makes me sad. And at being sad I am angry, because I'm sure there are ways to instead be elated by the same thing but they elude me, so frustration.

>>7157075
There may be no such thing as free will.

But there is still suffering and happiness.

>>7157353
Yeah, but you're like all the other pussies who refuse to acknowledge the significance of humans being able to know that.

If everything is predetermined do our choices matter more?

If randomness exists do our choices matter more?

Could you do differently given a situation if some supernatural being re-arranged every atom in the universe? How would you be able to tell? It seems that freewill is loosely defined and invites ambiguity.

>>7157075
>Now that free will seems to be an illusion, along with the sense of self
Citation needed

Unless you're in a perpetual state of ego-death, I think we all necessarily live in such a way that we assume self and will to be substantial, even if they are in fact abstractions that aren't very meaningful.

>>7157075

>freewill
>an illusion
>our world
>fake

do you really think we're a hologram anon

>>7157075

The universe is a hologram, and we are being controlled by beings in a higher dimension

ITT:

Retardation

>>7157654
great contribution m8

>>7157656
Good censorship

>>7157658
>censorship
What are you even talking about

>>7157660
t. retarded

>>7157654
This.

>>7157075
I don't think it counts as destiny is you have no say in how you get there.

>>7157075
I just don't think about it. It's pretty easy when you realize you're not actually thinking when you "think."

>>7157339

>>>/pol/

>>7157075
We do appear to simply be an emergent property of the universe. As a result there is no objective point to life or morality etc.

However

Our illusion of free will encompasses our realty completely, we cannot move beyond the illusion, so we are compelled to embrace it.

>>7157075
No one is actually going to try and make an arguement FOR free will? Fine. Here.

We have to define Free Will. To do this, I'll invoke the simulation arguement. We have to ask ourselves, what is the difference between a person and an NPC in a computer program. If you wanted to program a universe, what rules would you use? I'll assume some form of quantum mechanics combined with general relativity. These are the rules for particles and how they act and should be entirely sufficient, given the right initial values of G, c, and h, to describe a universe (for arguements sake, we will ignore the fact that while these laws are predictive, quantum mechanics is based on probability space, and therefore not deterministic for small numbers). What do these rules describe? The motion of particles and the potentials they generate. Do they describe the actions of an NPC in a computer simulation? I'd argue no. AI needs to be programmed seperately. NPCs have rules they are required to follow, programmed into the simulation itself. A mind, anything that is alive, while it may have internal rules for it's decision making procress, those rules are not defined in the simulation. The process, enacted in the simulation, must follow those rules, but the outcome is not explictly defined by the code. An NPC, in GTA or other simulated worlds, has no decisions, only hardcoded scripted outcomes.

>>7157765
Now, looking at things as systems, let me describe the difference between a living system and a random collection of particles. The random collection of particles is a system of many states, whose future states can be predicted through statistical mechanics. The amount of information contained is constant, each particle has a position and momentum vector, and while the system may be chaotic, and be increasingly difficult to predict in momentum space, as a whole the laws of thermodynamics hold, the particles will each individually follow the paths in space dictated by their individual potentials. How is this different from a living system? The individual particles in a living system must obey the laws of the universe, they follow the potentials, but the entire system does not have to follow the potential given by it's enviroment. A living system, and in my opinion this is the key, has the ability to alter it's internal potential in able to do work against the enviroment which will allow the system to stay out of equilibrium with it's enviroment. For example, a balloon floating in the air, it will float for a time, but given heat loss and pressure changes in the enviroment, eventually every balloon is grounded. The balloon's movement over time is completely dictated by it's outside enviroment (wind currents, temperature, air pressure), and can be modeled given enough computing power, and simulated given the same laws as the universe. An ameoba, by contrast, has the ability to use it's internally stored energy to move counter to potentials, and it's movement, while it may be able to be simulated, requires a seperate ruleset. That is free will. The ability of a system to alter internal potential energy to do work against the potential of the enviroment it exists in, and it is present in all living things.

>>7157460
How can determinism exist if there is always a set amount of entropy in every system that exists (mostly)? If by determinism you mean that a higher power decides our actions, good and evil regardless the definition of morale. Either way, you really shouldn't get depressed since you believe that it is to be determined anyway. I still don't think you can determine what other people control unless you have the knowledge of the entire capacity of the universe at your hand. If I had the power, the knowledge, I would use it for good. Meaning that I wouldn't give it out what I know, but I would use it to know every part of the timeline in the universe in which I live (assuming that parallel universes exist, which I believe they do) and change things that can help in one way.
or another

Brain mapping will determine the electro-chemical patterns that occur in a 'standard' brain.
Neurochemists and microbiologists are determining chemical and biological effects on the brain.

You know from your own experience and observation that people 'repeat' mistakes, I cant see how an argument against determinism will be valid in 20 years?

>>7157460
>I just try to forget about it

Forgetting about it was also predetermined

Free will exists.

If we wouldn't have free will we wouldn't be able to discuss if we have free will or not.

>>7159920
Define "free will".

>>7159935
You are not a powerless observer in your own body. You do what you choose to do.

>>7159943
Define "you".

>>7159935
In biology, you can measure an animal's free will with its breath awareness, control and play. Pretty simple straight forward way. tip: Usually females are worse than males at this. Females are like these weird soulless bots with chronic anxiety.

>>7159950
You = not a powerless observer in your own body. You = who does what you choose to do.

Are you fucking retarded on purpose? Kek, yes, you are.

>>7159985
You're the one who is playing word games and pretending you're actually saying anything.

>>7157075
Who the fuck cares? It's like you people go out of your way to be depressed.

>>7160009
No, you asked for definition after it was giving. Face your butthurt for being this retarded. Everyone can see your retardation, you asked for it and now you are butthurt.

The idea of "free will" is ultimately that there is a "source of agency" within the body. But there is no reason to think that the body is the source of agency. That line of thinking is solipsistic.

Free will obviously doesn't exist, but you can make choices. They're simply all determined. If they weren't, well, I wouldn't be very happy, because my body couldn't exist without the chains of events into the past and future that allow its function.

>>7157075
just keep going, learn everything there is and become immortal.

>>7160062
You are like that retard in class that comes late and doesn't know the definition of the words. Do you think you are the only one in a scientific board who believes in physics?

What is willpower I wonder. After all isn't it the tool of free will to resist the control of our instincts? What exactly is it? Is it isolated or is it influenced by a series of variables?

>>7160122
The concept of willpower is very related to physical strength. Actually, it is safe to say they are the same. On a more mind related vocabulary, willpower is ignorance, aka focus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da
Pratītyasamutpāda (Sanskrit: प्रतीत्यसमुत्पाद; Pali: पटिच्चसमुप्पाद paṭiccasamuppāda) is commonly translated as dependent origination or dependent arising. The term is used in the Buddhist teachings in two senses:

On a general level, it refers to one of the central concepts in the Buddhist tradition—that all things arise in dependence upon multiple causes and conditions.
On a specific level, the term is also used to refer to a specific application of this general principle—namely the twelve links of dependent origination.

The concept of pratītyasamutpāda (in both the general and specific meanings) is the basis for other key concepts in Buddhism, such as karma and rebirth, the arising of dukkha "suffering" and the possibility of liberation through realizing anātman "no self". The general principle of pratītyasamutpāda is complementary to the concept of śūnyatā "emptiness".

>>7157075
if I don't have free will who animates my activy? Who impels me to respond to this dopey post? Who urges me to get into my car in the afternoon and drive to some form of gainful employment? The suggestion is just entirely absurd , ridiculous and preposterous..

>>7159828
which makes it even worse

which was also predetermined

fuck off

also predetermined

Knowing that my conscious is entirely comprised of matter and can therefor be formed again, I'm quite excited at the idea that I have something else once I die. Hopefully I'm a bit luckier and can be born as a being of the space age. Should be dank

Well, wish me luck, I'm off to kill myself

>>7157196

A choice that you don't make.

>>7160218
Lel don't do it.

I also discovered this and I must confess it makes me euphoric.

>>7160225

Literally why not? The only people who will tell you not to smoke weed are those who haven't and those who are too dumb to utilize the effects.

>>7160218
The likelihood of you being reborn is pretty slim unless the universe is fundamentally eternal. And if that's the case you really shouldn't be celebrating, because an eternity of existence pretty much guarantees you that all the most horrible things imaginable is inevitable for you, forever and ever.

>>7160246

Heard of m-theory?

Also, how can I imagine or experience the worst thing imaginable if I'm confined to that experience?

>>7157771
>An ameoba, by contrast, has the ability to use it's internally stored energy to move counter to potentials, and it's movement, while it may be able to be simulated, requires a seperate ruleset.
So anything powered by a battery has free will?

>>7160253
That faggot is just saying: "Want to live again? Go to hell.".

He thinks you are equal to a rat or a cockroach. He probably comes from a shitty anarchist background. Even if you say "If I am reborn a mosquito, it won't be me" he will get confused and call you an edgy retard and say "muh hell"

>>7160261

Yeah I know, I was just saying how bad can hell be if you don't know that it's hell, for the sake of reading what I write down and because responding to people like this is literally my only use of this site. Having my thoughts evaluated by a bunch of unstable people who are much smarter than me gives me a real sense my place in this world.

>>7157699
^

>>7157634
^

>>7157707
You can move on from the illusion, but once you do there's no one to realize they've moved on from anything.

>>7160201
Who is to say there isn't just a continuous unchanging self which does not will anything but is nonetheless subject to the content of existence?

>>7160264
Good point. From a certain perspective, such an existence would be hell. Or maybe it's just our life. Still say it would be super duper shitty to be porn a peasant during the dark ages, just not nearly as shitty as being a peasant in the dark ages whose only thought is that there existence could be something other than what it is.

>>7157075

>Gross reductionists, first of all, do not believe any interiors exist anywhere, so the issues of meaning, value, consciousness, depth, culture, and intentionality, these never come up for them; and, in fact, they hope to die with the boast on their lips that they never saw a value they couldn't reduce to atoms.

>>7157075
>Now that free will seems to be an illusion, along with the sense of self, how do you deal with it? Do you live as if you exist and have free will, or what?
I shitpost on /sci/ to fill the void.

>>7157472
>Define "free will". Seriously, there is no point where any conceivable definition of it could have made sense.
More than one possible future springing from a single past as the result of non-deterministic decision making.
You newtonian-/sci/ fags are just as bad as the /x/ crowd, in your own little way.

>>7157075
>illusion, along with the sense of self
Cogito Ergo Sum

>>7160293
Free will is not indeterminism. What a fucking retarded plebeian lel

>>7160282

Being a peasant in the dark ages whose only thought is that their existence could be something other than what it is would be perfect. You would quickly realize that offing yourself is the perfect decision and you'd escape that treachery. If you were just a peasant you would suffer but be clueless to the fact that you could be living in a better situation, so that shitty situation wouldn't be nearly as bad as it seems to you and I.

>>7160298
>Free will is not indeterminism. What a fucking retarded plebeian lel

Hot dogs don't exist.
First I insist there's no possible definition that makes sense.
Then, after hearing YOUR definition, I declare: "NO, that's just a sausage!"
Ipse Dixit, there's no such thing as a hotdog.

...now go shitpost on some other board.

>>7160116
Chill, nerd from the past, you have no free will.

You're literally an ape. You are a biological machine. You can choose, but you don't have free will. Number one: because free will is a vacuous concept, number two: even if free will were defined, your evolutionary history would certainly preclude you from being able to call any of your functions free. You are beholden to your past in many ways, and that's beautiful, but you will never have free will.

>>7160589
>le philosophy face
Prove it.

>>7157075
If free will doesn't exist, how did Jesus choose to die for our sins?

Christinaity: 1
Philosophy: blown the fuck out

>>7160706
Prove that you're an ape or prove that you're a machine? It's obvious that you're both, but I can't give you a full explanation of your machinery because humans don't understand it yet.

>>7160710
His existence was literally predetermined