/sci/ - Science & Math

>>7059859
>animal torture
dude, wtf???

>>7059859
What do you do with the silk?

>>7059859
>actually harvesting the silk

You think this has more potential than synthesizing the silk?

>>7059869
NotOP, but spider silk has an incredible amount of strength and flexibility. Iirc, a certain type of dragline silk has the tensile strength of kevlar, but with a good amount more flexibility. Also has a pretty low immune response, so it could be used for medical materials. Could have a wide range of applications.

>>7059878
I meant what does OP specifically do.

>>7059859

Won't the spider die from lack of energy, genius?

Possibly? I do believe that the spider’s natural drag line silk contains different, more complex microstructures than synthetically produced spider silk. The hardest part is keeping them in a constant silk producing state. They were quick to either climb up the silk, cut loose, or just stop and hang there.

More experiments need to be conducted pertaining to the silk’s hydrophilic property, and, “Supercontraction” (The Journal of Experimental Biology 212, 1990-1994) or the ability of the silk to perform work when cycled through wet and dry phases.


(The Journal of Experimental Biology 212, 1990-1994)

http://gozips.uakron.edu/~tab27/PDFs/JEB2009_silk_muscle.pdf


I plan to scale up this original experiment cited above. I will be increasing the lengths by 100 times. Also, the amount of individual filaments per bundle tested will be increased by 1K times. experiments will be performed on bundles of filaments that hold a twist, in a balanced thread. More complex yarns and cord weaves can also be researched.

Wow OP this is real interesting can I have the code that you're using to keep the spider between two light sensors? Also how long until the spider runs out of silk? How long until it recreates silk?

solid state

data

>>7059938
Why not use a micro controller?

data b

Thanks OP just sent in my patent.

>>7059966
You better be fucking joking

>>7059967
Nope, gonna make millions selling this to H&M.

>>7059913
why? Are you trying to make silk artificial muscles or understand the silk better. We have hydrophilic actuators already.

>>7059938
No arduino, I'm really surprised.

This is all for research and the greater body of scientific knowledge. The silk that I am dealing with is between 3 and 5 microns in diameter. Natural drag line properties relating to density and toughness have not been fully explored, in regards to its application with modern textile structures.

>>7059891
Have you considered that the treatment of the spiders might be unethical?

Honestly, the circuitry needed only required about $2 worth of components, basically amounting to about 50 transistors. At the time I really wanted to use an Arduino, but I did not need to, I already had all the parts needed.

Sure, I do not believe that they are being harmed though. Most of all the people I know will kill this spider on sight for no good reason other than its poisonous. Most times I’ll relocate them when they show up in high traffic areas.

What do you think?

>>7060417
I don't know, most people don't care much about animals. I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong, I don't know enough about how the spider feels, if it feels at all, to say that; and besides the benefits may outweigh the harms. I'm just unsure.

>>7060431
Me too, unsure. I have decided to not do more harmful things, such as amputations, because it seams cruel and unusual. For the record, ever since I started this research my number of, “getting bit” nightmares has increased 20 fold!

In comparison to caterpillar silk harvesting this is not that cruel.

>>7060436

Domesticated spider, while probably not great to take the spider from the wild if it gets adequate rest and is kept in a similar environment and is fed and isn't harmed it's probably not that immoral. That said what is the purpose beyond getting small batches?

>>7059859
Got a paper instead of a youtube video?

>>7060568
Originally, the drive was to be able to create a means of getting large batches.

>>7060572
I wish, generally speaking, my experiments revealed a fairly strong material. Although Its volume to tensile strength ratio was less than expected, but its peculiar toughness, density, elasticity and hydrophilic properties were note worthy.

Each filament is between three and five micrometers in diameter.

>>7060627
These samples have gone through significant wear and tear.

>>7060627
what's the chemical composition?

>>7059945
data c

>>7059940
data d

>>7060639
protein(s)?

>>7059859
This is actually pretty cool OP. Is there a determined number of revolutions of the spool once the laser detects the spider?

>>7060404
>Have you considered that the treatment of the spiders might be unethical?
No shit. This is animal abuse.

>>7060693
Shut the fuck up already.

>>7060693
>>7060404
For fucks sake.
They're just fucking spiders he's not even harming them.

I work with some material science people that are making artificial muscles by twisting fishing wire. When you heat the twisted fishing wire it contracts and as it cools it goes back to normal length.

You may get an interesting response from doing the same, but don't let it get too hot to destroy them. I'd suggest a hair drier to heat them. If it does contracts and then release when cooling, then you should start looking up if anyone patented that already. If no one did then get on it quickly. Once you get it patented, then you can ask a university to look at it and test it for other cool shit that you don't have equipment for.

idk how you are gonna twist them. Think of twisted stranded electrical wires as what you are going for. To test if they contract and release you should attach a small weight to one end of the silk and let it hang. If you add too much weight then you might now be able to see a response as the weight's force is overpowering the contracting force.

good luck

>unethical treatment of spiders

you guys ever have a whopper?

>>7060717
They already do that with humidity.

>>7060695
>They're just fucking spiders
I like spiders.
They kill flies.

So what are these hydrophilic properties you keep speaking of?

>>7059870
Nature has been nanomanufacturing for 4 billion years.
It may be a while before we catch up.
Example: our engines have much greater horsepower than natural muscle but no where near the efficiency.

>>7060695
>They're just fucking spiders
Even "fucking spiders" are living things that deserve our ethical considerations.

>he's not even harming them.
It's even worse... he's torturing them.

>>7059870
Yes and no
Yes because our technology sucks in comparison to nature's manufacturing
No because it's incredibly inefficient but it's all we've got for now

>>7059859
Darwin's bark spider(Caerostris darwini) , just discovered in 2009, builds its web across small rivers (smart huh? lots of bugs) so its gotta be very strong.
"Its silk is the toughest biological material ever studied, over ten times tougher than a similarly-sized piece of Kevlar.[3] The average toughness of the fibres is 350 MJ/m3, and some are up to 520 MJ/m3, making the silk twice as tough as any other spider silk known.[4]"

Ten times the strength of fucking kevlar!!!
I want a trench coat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin's_bark_spider

>>7060684
no, it was basically set up with a break always applied, and a large enough distance as a buffer.

>>7060404
>>7060693
You know how the collect regular silk?
After the cute little baby moths weave themselves a cozy little cocoon to go through puberty in the ebil hoomanz collect them a dump them in boiling water. That way they don't break the threads on their way out.
Life preys on life.
Grow up.

>>7060816
supercontraction & the silk is more elastic when wet

>>7060776
If they are used to make fabric they will be farmed and there will be more of them.

>>7060756
The thermodynamic properties of spider silk are promising!

>>7059886
It's called animal husbandry. You just have to manage things for most efficiency. Keeping your stock healthy and happy is something bronze age farmers learned was smart.

>>7059859
Any reason for choosing black widows?

>>7060695
>The silk-producing glands of spiders continue to be replenished as they are depleted and there seems to be little feedback to prevent the glands from sequestering amino acids from the body to produce silk (Breed et al., 1964; Peakall, 1966; Witt, 1963). Even if spiders are starved, they will continue to replenish the contents of their silk glands as silk is removed to the point of losing half of their body mass (Witt, 1963).

sure seems like torture to me

>>7059913
You might benefit from some behavioral information to keep them in a silk producing state. knowledge of more traditional sericulture might be helpful. They might even have nutritional clues on how to get higher production rates.

>>7060883
The populations in my area are prodigious.

>>7060882
thank you

>>7060008
>No arduino, I'm really surprised.

Hey, build your own damn spider milker.

>>7060885
thank you for that info

>>7060888
I most definitely agree, there are many directions I can go from here.

>>7060809
Now this pic does look kind of barbaric.
Cows give more milk when they are calm and healthy. I'm guessing the same applies to everything.

>>7059859
Deezul, This is totally awesome.
I know you are looking at other properties of the material but plain old ballistic resistant fabric could get you a DOD contract for a few million bucks.
I'd say you have enough now for a crowdfunding campaign.
And don't forget about that Darwin's bark spider. Getting a stock of them would not be all that expensive and you would literally be making the strongest thread in the world without any further research.

>>7059938
> Using gates for latches
I love you

>>7060937
> Cows give more milk when they are calm and healthy. I'm guessing the same applies to everything.
flight or fight (fear) response usually runs opposite the feast and make love response.
but these are invertebrates, not mammals, so who knows.

Bear in mind, what I have observed is that, the spider is continually allowing silk to be pulled out while simply walking around. We've all seen spiders intentionally fall from a ceiling, this is because as they walk around, they periodically plant an anchor of a different type of silk in which the drag line is connected to. It is how they build webs, and create routes through space that are most efficient. They probably love making silk.

>>7060998
So you just built the world's first spider masturbation machine?

>>7060957
Darwin's bark spider is on my christmas list

>>7060971
Good point.
Chickens lay eggs with thicker shells when they are stressed (obvious connection there to me) so maybe a nervous spider would produce the strongest silk.

>>7061027
We can mostly agree that spiders are strategic killers. My personal belief is that spiders do not get nervous, and are stressed by typical physical activities.

>>7061042
They probably are stressed from more obvious things
Like being stamped on

>>7061042
that is, not stressed by typical physical activities

>>7060885
>sure seems like torture to me

I agree it's important to properly nurture and care for livestock even little creepy ones with to many legs but the little guy is just working for a living doing what he does best just like you, me and a sheep.

Really cool OP.

Will you keep sharing your data here?

>>7061005
>So you just built the world's first spider masturbation machine

8:00-9:00 a.m. Big breakfast full of yummy amino acids.
9"00-12:00 Squirt off.
12:00-1:00 Big lunch full of yummy amino acids.
1:00-5:00 Squirt off.
5:00-6:00 Big dinner full of yummy amino acids.
6:00-11:00 Breed.
11:00pm-8:00am. Good nights sleep.

Sounds OK to me.

>>7061078
>Really cool OP.
>Will you keep sharing your data here?
Yes, please.

And your commercial progress. It'w would be great to see something besides accusations of asperger's syndrome to come out of /sci/ for once.

This research took place roughly five years ago. There were no major breakthroughs, therefore my interest tapered off. I figured I would bring what I had to a discussion board now, to share what I have learned.

>>7061047
I really enjoy seeing what has been done here and hereafter.

http://www.wired.com/2009/09/spider-silk/

So how much silk can you get from it in how much time?

>>7061239
>>7059945, >>7059940

>>7061256
Wow, 19 FPM. Not bad.

52 minutes and you would have 300 meters.

Wouldn't it be better to not use black widows because they're ridiculously poisonous?

>>7059859
Have you done tensile strength tests?

stop objectifying spiders

>>7061448
Yes, per volume the dragline silk I harvested is weaker than nylon, yet it is more elastic, and said to be tougher.

>>7060885
solution. we force feed the spiders.

>>7059859
Haven't read the thread so bear with me if these have been asked before.

Have you calculated the energy requirements of the typical spider to continually produce? As far as I know creating silk is the most energy intensive action a spider does.
What is the typical spider's maximum effective production rate before requiring a resting period?
How long is the resting period?
How much food and recuperation time does the spider need between harvesting sessions?
Have you looked into breeding to select for spiders with increased production and/or more efficient production?
Is it even possible for spiders to be bred for more efficient AND faster production?
At what point would enhancing the response to stimuli to produce silk negatively affect the spider's longevity, production rate, quality of silk, etc.?
How many spiders would be detrimentally harmed while researching the proper husbandry cycles?

I have nothing but questions OP because stuff like this is fascinating and I know nothing about it.

>>7061926
Haven't read the thread and interested? Stop lying to yourself.

>>7061931
I just read the thread and I now have an asshole like you to deal with.

Thanks.

>>7061939
welcome to /sci/ , newfriend

>>7061943
here have an upvote :^)

When it all boils down spider silk does not have magical properties, although what it does have is still yet to be defined completely. At any rate, while a square mile warehouse with 20 million spiders could produce significant amounts of product, this product my be simply extremely rare at best. One idea is to create limited articles of clothing, like lingerie that can be marketed based on its uniqueness and extreme rarity. This whole spider silk thing for me has always been equal parts science and art.