/sci/ - Science & Math

>>7049844
I say we keep the personal belief exemption. Let natural selection do its thing. We don't need these idiots spreading their genes.

>>7049844
I say good.
Freedom to self medication is something only bigoted conservatives support.

>>7049874
It's actually the bigoted liberals that buy into the freedom shit.

>>7049844
>win the fight
You are actually okay with forced vaccination/treatment? This isn't about fundies vs fedoras so think twice before wishing to be treated like cattle.

>>7049881
Liberals love the government, what they don't love is the corporations making vaccines.
I think if the government made vaccines and forced people to take them, liberals would be happy.

>>7049885
1/10 made me reply

>>7049844
So when do we outlaw religion?

>>7049887
Yeah what a nutjob.
We have science on our side, its perfectly justified to force people to submit to our will. Freedom to self medication is something only bigoted conservatives support.

>>7049891
I don't really give a fuck what you decide to do until you start infecting me with diseases because you were too stupid to vaccinate your kids.

>>7049886
No. They have their head so far up their ass, that they fall for that whole natural shit.

>>7049893
Go live in a bubble?
Literally everything can give you a disease/cancer/injury/etc..
Its not justification to force people by threat of violence to comply with your beliefs.

Nobody can give a good answer on why people should not self medicate, it's only doctors and the pharma industry afraid to lose power and money.

>>7049897
>Go live in a bubble?
Nope, it's not my responsibility to hide from your retarded decisions. It is your responsibility to protect your kids from disease, for both their sake and everyone else. It sounds like a pretty good justification to me.

>>7049898
See >>7049893

>>7049891
Yeah. Don't get me started on how the government tries to control how I drive as well. I don't have to obey those communist red lights or stop sings. Fuck that.

>>7049897
>Literally everything can give you a disease/cancer/injury/etc
And you are only amplifying the risks, we can control and minimize the risk of preventable disease spreading but you are too retarded or scared of a simple vaccine to see this.

>>7049900
Why draw the line at vaccines?
Why not execute people who drive cars, who's exhausts pump out dangerous gasses that you breath?
Why not incarcerate the local fast food franchise owner who sells crap to your kids?

Nothing you are saying justifies what you are proposing.

>>7049897
>beliefs
Vaccination is not a belief. It is common fucking sense.

>>7049905
>Why not execute people who drive cars, who's exhausts pump out dangerous gasses that you breath?
Because cars are useful. Your disproven beliefs are not.

>Why not incarcerate the local fast food franchise owner who sells crap to your kids?
Because controlling what kids eat is the parent's responsibility. And them eating junk food doesn't affect me.

>Nothing you are saying justifies what you are proposing.
How does it not?

>>7049907
>Your disproven beliefs are not.
I'm not even anti vaccine.

Try take a step back for a bit, look at what you are saying.
Forget the grandeur of being on the side of science, forget the moral battle. Think about what you are proposing.

>>7049908
It really has nothing to do with being pro-science or morals. I simply don't want to get sick because of someone else's stupidity. That's all the justification I need. There's nothing on the other side of the argument that trumps my need not to be infected.

>>7049908
For people to have a controlled record of their vaccines and being up to the date?
Many countries already have that and they do not have measles outbreaks.

>>7049908
He is proposing that people get vaccinated. It's a fucking shot. It is painless, has no serious side affects and keeps people healthy. How is that unreasonable?

>>7049914
>has no serious side affects
Stopped reading there, you are too ignorant on this matter.

>>7049916
Then enlighten me oh great wisefag.

>>7049916
MUH AUTISM

Fuck off.

Seems everyone here supports mandatory vaccination in the West.
But do people think people in Africa and some parts of Asia should have access to vaccines?
Aren't diseases vital in controlling population to an extent?

>>7049911
You won't be, 'cause you're vaccinated. It's these people's kids.

>>7049914
>vaccines as a singularity
Top kek
You are just as dangerous as anti vaccine people.

>>7049923
There's still a chance to get infected with the vaccination. The point of getting everyone vaccinated is not to make everyone 100% immune to the disease, it's to eradicate the disease and eliminate the possibility of infection in the first place..

I don't think you should be forced to be vaccinated.
I do think that kids who don't get vaccinated because of their parents stupid beliefs should have child services called on them. That shit is neglect and abuse.

>>7049922
Nope. We decide that by controlling birth.

>>7049924
>singularity
I don't get it.

>>7049911
>I simply don't want to get sick because of someone else's stupidity.
It is not everyone's responsibility to protect you from getting sick.

>>7049914
>How is that unreasonable?
You are being forced to accept foreign substances in your body, so some other guy who actually fears dying from measles (and got vaccinated willingly, no risk of it harming him anyway) gets to sleep better at night.

>>7049931
>It is not everyone's responsibility to protect you from getting sick.
No, but it is their responsibility to not infect me.

>You are being forced to accept foreign substances in your body, so some other guy who actually fears dying from measles (and got vaccinated willingly, no risk of it harming him anyway) gets to sleep better at night.
People that don't get vaccines and get sick are forcing others to accept foreign substances into their body. The difference is that one is beneficial while the other is a disease. And no, vaccines are not magic. They don't make you 100% immune. Which is exactly why everyone needs to get them.

>>7049931
> forced to accept foreign substances in your body
Yeah, because the alternative would be that you would be forced to accept foreign substances that make you sick. You want to force people to get sick.

>>7049931
No it's so you and the rest don't get measles, do you think you are somehow immune to it or other disease?
This we control the spreading of the disease looking to eradicate it in the future, also "foreign substances" just tell me what the fuck do you believe people are injecting you? Drugs and toxic shit? It's just a weak version of the same virus/bacteria/fungus, shit is harmless.

>>7049914
>It is painless

Stop lying. It's a piece of metal shoved through your skin, it fucking hurts. My pediatrician never fed that bullshit to my kids, he was up front about it and they took their shots like fucking champions. But I guess you want your kids to learn to mistrust the medical system from an early age?

>>7049940
Still waiting for those "serious side effects" from the guy who thinks vaccines give 100% immunity. Top kek.

>>7049933
>it is their responsibility to not infect me
Except it isn't, you fear sickness they don't. So you get protection and leave them the fuck alone.
>forcing others to accept foreign substances into their body
If you don't want to breathe their bodily fluids and take precautions to avoid that, you won't get punished by the law.
>They don't make you 100% immune.
Great, use something else on top of your vaccination.

>>7049936
>you and the rest don't get measles
The well being of others is not my responsibility.
>what the fuck do you believe people are injecting you?
Its not about muh autism. These laws can be used to force you to accept anything in your body.

>>7049948
>Except it isn't, you fear sickness they don't. So you get protection and leave them the fuck alone.
How is it not? People have a responsibility to not harm others. It's that simple. There is no reason to not get vaccinated that is more important than not getting people sick.

>If you don't want to breathe their bodily fluids and take precautions to avoid that, you won't get punished by the law.
I do take precautions. The only people not doing what they should be doing to are the people who don't get vaccinated. I can't do that for them. They have to do it.

>Great, use something else on top of your vaccination.
What does that even mean? Fuck off retard.

>>7049948
>These laws can be used to force you to accept anything in your body
No, a vaccine can't just have "anything" it's pretty straightforward what do they have in them. This laws are to prevent outbreaks of preventable diseases and avoid to pay and deal with people with no reason to be sick, this is not about you but the general public. You live in a society and if you don't like that you can move to the mountains.

>>7049844
Cool story bro, but that doesn't do anything about Oregon.

>>7049949
>People have a responsibility to not harm others.
Not protecting them is not the same thing as actively harming them.
>I do take precautions.
That doesn't have anything to do with what I previously said.
>What does that even mean?
Live in an underground bubble located in the woods, burn all your clothes, wear a mask, etc.

>>7049950
>No, a vaccine can't just have "anything"
So what? Laws provide a framework for other similar laws and the way these laws are applied can be changed anytime for any reason.

>>7049949

Unless they deliberately attempt to infect you, they have no choice in the matter.. an air-borne communicable disease cannot be controlled or made to not infect someone.

bear in mind you can have asymptomatic carriers as well, they will not display symptoms but can spread disease.

In this case Herd immunity is needed, so objecting to something that otherwise may kill/harm you quite badly is being short sighted.

Are there things that can go wrong? of course. but if no-one immunised (or below the threshold) then you can have nasty things occur. even worse, with a larger pool to amplify in we might find that existing immunisation techniques won't work (spontaneous mutation)

>>7049925
Ah. Good to know, thanks.

ITT: Retards advocating the return of infectious disease because it apparently is a better alternative than the scientifically dubious notion that vaccines are actually hazardous.

Mind you strong reactions and allergies to vaccines are a thing, and a valid reason not to take the vaccine if such allergiesare known. But it in no way justifies opting out of vaccines because of personnal belief.

Nurglefag pls go

>>7049966
>Not protecting them is not the same thing as actively harming them.
And yet there's a thing called negligent homicide.

So no, your opinions on the matter have no value.

Thanks Jenny
Your service to this country will not be forgotten

>>7049982
>negligent homicide
People with the flu have infected millions, yet they are still not serving their life sentence. The injustice!

>>7049948
>>it is their responsibility to not infect me
>Except it isn't, you fear sickness they don't. So you get protection and leave them the fuck alone.

>>it is their responsibility to not shoot me
>Except it isn't, you fear bullets they don't. So you get protection and leave them the fuck alone.

Nah bra, you're retarded. If you shoot me the law's gonna come for you. And if you infect me, the law should come for you.

>>7050008
if and when we find a way to reliably vaccinate against the flu, this will become true

until then, fuck off

>>7049906
Enjoy walking into your dystopian future. Jesus can't believe how stupid you guys on /sci/ are. Humans aren't ants, we should have freedom of choice for things like this. This Board is literally autist central.

>>7049948
>duuurrrrrrrgghhhh antivaxxers are so brave they don't afraid of diseases

This is by far the stupidest thing I've read all week.

>>7050020
>Humans aren't ants, we should have freedom of choice for things like this.

I should also have freedom of choice to light my building on fire. Freedom of choice to drive 55 mph in a school zone on a monday morning.

>>7049975
Yes but what professional would apply a vaccine if they know the patient is allergic or what processional would simply apply the vaccine without making questions to begin with?
I'm not American but how are things out there? How can an irrational fear to a simple treatment comes to live and gain such power within the people?

>>7050020
Freedom of what? Endanger others? Refusing to take a shot like a child even when it's harmless? Giving space for diseases to spread, mutate and be ore dangerous? Polio was not eradicated thanks to retards like you.

>>7049885
>You are actually okay with forced vaccination/treatment?
Allowing you to give your child 'natural herbal' lead-arsenic compounds should also be allowed?

>>7050027
It started out with some idiotic scientist doing a study about something else and he made wild conclusions based off a sample of like n=12 with a nonrepresentative group and reactionist-type people reacted. It's unfounded bullshit.

>>7050016
And we have, dumbass. The odds are excellent.

>>7049885
>forced vaccination/treatment?
>implying it's the _children_ making the choice (either way)

All children are already forced to vaccinate or not vaccinate by their parents.

>>7049897
>force people by threat of violence
Go back to /pol/.

>>7049923
>You won't be, 'cause you're vaccinated. It's these people's kids.
Wrong.
Vaccines aren't 100% effective at the individual level, but when EVERYBODY gets vaccinated, we can wipe out a disease.
Look at polio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis#Eradication

>>7049931
>It is not everyone's responsibility to protect you from getting sick.
Yes, it is.
That's why we don't have open sewers in the streets any more.
Your hurt feelings aside, hygiene standards are very beneficial for society.

>>7049940
>piece of metal shoved through your skin, it fucking hurts
The pain you feel is almost entirely psychosomatic.

>>7050020
>Jesus can't believe how stupid you guys on /sci/ are.
So.... you /pol/acks are smarter than the /sci/entists?

>>7050027
>How can an irrational fear to a simple treatment comes to live and gain such power within the people?
Because the news tells people whatever "truth" gets the best ratings.

>>7050050
>Forcing people to take alien substance into their bodies is ok and none should have the choice to decline it
>This is a good thing
Yes, /sci/ is filled with retards, how can you call yourself a free man if the state can force you to do things you don't want.

>>7050050
Ted Kaczynski, technicians don't give a shit about human principles so long as they can indulge in their autistic talents while saying "trust us we're scientists!"

>>7050050
>>7050050
Ted Kaczynski was right, technicians don't give a shit about human principles so long as they can indulge in their autistic talents while saying "trust us we're scientists!"

>>7050042
See >>7049972

>>7049908
I don't want the fucking measles or mumps. Some dipshit parents aren't vaccinating their children. They start being carriers and coughing around me and I die from my throat swelling up because some fuck didn't vaccinate their children. I vaccinated mine.

The real argument is it should be free to get your children vaccinated. Because $800 for a vaccination/physical is bullshit.

>>7050054
>Yes, /sci/ is filled with retards, how can you call yourself a free man if the state can force you to do things you don't want.

>Calling yourself a free man
>In a deterministic world

>>7050090
>Vaccines are not free in America
This explain everything.

>>7050032
Not according to a recent Cochrane review.

>>7050090
Vaccines aren't free in America?

Holy fuck

>>7049929
>I don't get it
... neither does he, it's just a word he heard on Faux Noise,
... sounds meaningful, fulla gravitas an´ shit.

>>7050020
>Humans aren't ants
... because ants form a co-operative society that benefits its members, whereas many humans don't give a shit.

>>7049844
If the government can force you to go through something so mundane such as vaccines and force you to go through something so extreme such as chemo.

Then the government can force you to go through any treatment.

That's what's at stake.

>>7050132
>>7050105
vaccines are free in America

>>7050168
The government can already force you to go through chemo, in the US anyway. Because cancer is life threatening, chosing to not take the treatment (for non-religious reasons) is considered suicide, and therefore you are not in your right mind if you do not chose to take chemo. Literally happened last month:
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2015/01/08/connecticut-supreme-court-upholds-ruling-that-teen-must-undergo-chemo/

>foxnews
I know, just first one that came up when I googled it.

Vaccines are not mandatory because measels and mumps are not considered lethal. However they can clearly kill children. Not getting vaccinated should fall under the same rules.

>>7050178
Should the government have the right to chip your children without your consent,because threats to their safety could be life threatening?

Should you have medical consent period?

http://www.occupycorporatism.com/student-rfid-chipping-conditions-american-youth-to-accept-government-surveillance/

https://www.aclu.org/blog/content/dont-let-schools-chip-your-kids

http://dailynightly.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/14/14425733-rfid-chips-let-schools-track-students-and-retain-funding-but-some-parents-object?lite

>>7050191
>paying money for such a shitty lunch

nice one USA

>>7050168
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

>>7050204
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

>>7050191
>2 toasts, 2 bowls of slurry, milk and 2 what I only assume to be something inedible
>paying for it too

>>7050132
>Vaccines aren't free in America?
>Holy fuck

You don't get it, why should rich people pay to vaccinate the children of poor people? It's not like the rich can get infected with poor people diseases.

Ah ah ah.

>>>>mfw this is what it actually sounds like when you hear some Americans argue about any social issue, it is fucking weird as shit.

>>7049922
>Seems everyone here supports mandatory vaccination

No. Not even close.

There are many sane people here who recognize the ridiculousness of allowing the government the power to inject every citizen with something by force.

I haven't had any vaccinations since I was 5 or so, and I'm 28 now. I've never had any kind of sickness, aside from the occasional cold every couple years.

If you're vaccinated and safe from disease, why are you so afraid of me? What do you have to worry about?

>>7050274
Michel Obama.

prisoners eat better meals

>>7050297

>>7050132
Damn America sure is a shit hole

>>7049862
Somewhat this. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Saves us money on vaccines.

>>7050090
If you can't survive such a common children's disease then you have inferior genes and deserve to die.

The compromise is simple in my opinion.

You do not have to get your children vaccinated.

But to attend public school they must show proof of vaccination.

Private schools can make their own decisions on the matter.

>>7050293
>If you're vaccinated and safe from disease, why are you so afraid of me? What do you have to worry about?

Your retarded question reveals that you do not understand the subject. Compare:

>If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

>>7050331
>Private school with only anti-vax children
>outbreak of measles at schhol

WHAT COULD WE HAVE DONE TO PREVENT THIS?

>>7050338
SO they get sick,boohoo

>>7050339
>they get sick
Measles can be lethal in children. An outbreak would mean deaths. Just because it's a "children's disease" that has been kept in check in the past 50 years does not mean that it is just "getting sick"

>>7050338
let natural selection take its course

there is only so much we can do

>>7049862
What is herd immunization for 500

>>7050351
We could remove elevator cabins from elevators and let people rope climb to their offices.
Let natures selection take out those who can't climb.

>>7050318
Ya, cuz health care for measles outbreaks is free

>>7050293
I'm NOT afraid of you, but then again, I'm not an infant who hasn't had a chance to get vaccines yet. I'm also dont have a compromised immune system because of any other condition. Unfortunately, thus cannot be said of the entire population, so unless you want to kill babies get your god damn shots.

>>7050030

I like your straw man there. Homeopathy was defunct long before people with aversion to vaccines were born. Show some sources on people using it, please.

>>7050360
I'll tell you what it's not: a justification for totalitarianism in healthcare.

You can't say you believe in personal freedom and self-determination, but you also believe that everybody has to be injected with something, without consent, when some body of experts decides that it's a good idea.

Freedom has some costs sometimes, which we just have to accept if we want the benefits of freedom. Loss of herd immunity is not worse than many of the other consequences of individual choice.

>>7050455
Your personal choice ends when it affects the health of other people. Smoking in public, drinking and driving, yelling fire in a movie theater.

Look at the fucking numbers >>7050342
Over 3/4s of a million cases of measles per year prior to the introduction of a vaccine. Now, next to none. Getting vaccinated is what is best for the entire species, and should be both required and free.

>>7050455
>Freedom has some costs sometimes, which we just have to accept if we want the benefits of freedom.

Yeah, and that cost is getting a damn vaccine that is well studied and safe.

>>7050037
That's because the parents have to put up with the consequences if anything goes wrong. If the state fucks up in any way, small or large, you're fucked because they have legal immunity.

>>7049862
Fuck you, asshole. I live a healthy lifestyle, work hard at it, and you're proposing I run a daily risk of having all that ruined because some faggot parent can't be arsed to get their kid some shots? Fuck that noise. People are getting stupider and stupider. They want to not get their goddamn kids vaccinated? Threaten 'em with jail and hefty fines and IDGAF.

>>7050191
because we have to be absolutley the same policy on vaccines and rfid chips.... yeah, your right. just like i should be free to walk into a shop and take everything for free, becauseim able to pick blackberries from the side of the road

>>7050469
So is Chemo

>>7050468
>Your personal choice ends when it affects the health of other people.
That kind of reasoning could be used to justify anything at all.

Sex that is not strictly necessary for reproduction has a chance of spreading STDs. Your personal choice ends when it affects the health of other people.

Spreading news about government incompetence and corruption causes stress, which causes heart disease and insomnia. Your personal choice ends when it affects the health of other people.

Refusing to take the highest-paying job you can get and working as many hours as they'll let you reduces the tax you pay, which means less money for government health programs. Your personal choice ends when it affects the health of other people.

We're not talking about going around and purposely injecting people with a disease. We're talking about not accepting a treatment that makes it less likely for you to get a disease.

The freedom to refuse medical treatment, the control over our own bodies, is one of our most sacred freedoms.

>>7050469
>that cost is getting a damn vaccine that is well studied and safe.
First of all, things can be "well studied" and the study conclusions can turn out to be wrong. Having everyone marching in lockstep means that you no longer have anything else to compare to. Vaccination-refusers are an important source of data on the effects of vaccination.

Secondly, what you're saying here is "the cost of freedom is accepting not having freedom". This is taking away freedom. It may be necessary to take away a certain amount of freedom to gain other good things, but once you start phrasing your arguments such that you refer to a loss of freedom as a gain of freedom, you're into 1984 newspeak territory, and you're using language as a weapon against reason.

I made a thread on /pol/ about this.
They agreed that I was a shill trying to push a jewish agenda. I sure do love that more idiots here listen to them than us.

>>7050511
>them
>us
why don't you go design a flag now

http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/judge-lawsuit-against-mercks-mmr-vaccine-fraud-to-continue/

Anytime you aren't allowed to question something, there is too much profit to lose from correction.

If parent were able to chose from several competing vaccines for each immunization, there wouldn't be an issue.

>>7050090
>paying for vaccines
Why do people still live in America?

>>7050504
>muh sacred freedoms
freedom isnt sacred, and people who are fucking stupid shouldnt be allowed to endanger other people.
it would be fine if they put all the people who refuse vaccines on an island where they can be as 'free' as they want. ideally also with people who think private automatic weapons are a right, and all the other libertarian idiots.
and no, im not against personal freedom, but its PERSONAL freedom. its not your right to endanger some other kids life, just because your too dumb to understand basic fucking science.

Ugh, if only Western Europe could be as free as the United States! Instead our evil fascist gubments force us to pay taxes so that we can all have access to free vaccines, healthcare and quality education... They have deprived us of the freedom to die from contagious sicknesses, oh the humanity!

No seriously these threads are disturbing from a Yuropoor perspective.

There shouldn't be any debate on this in the SCIENCE board, we know vaccines work now stick out your arm and shut up.

>>7050533
You should add that we are FORCED to attend school and to be vaccinated, it's killing my liberty.

>>7050521
>W-Why aren't I able to question gravity without getting made fun of?
>Why aren't I allowed to let thousands die?
Idiot. All anti vax arguments have been disproven.

>>7050558
>>Story about specific vaccine batch not actually working due to production errors.
>Idiot. All anti vax arguments have been disproven.
ITT: fanatical scientism.

>>7050533
The USA's richer than you, and drives more technological progress, for a reason.

You've ridden the USA's coattails into the 21st century.

>>7050563
i don't understand how an article about a vaccine not being as effective as claimed to say that vaccination as a concept is wrong? that just seems retarded.
the only point to really take from this is that people shouldn't trust big companies to put people ahead of profits. but that's not a vaccine issue, that's a free market capitalism issue.
please do us all a favor and stop wasting oxygen. ive heard that breathing 100% nitrogen for 10 mins is a great cure for being a fucking dumbass

>>7050590
>i don't understand how an article about a vaccine not being as effective as claimed to say that vaccination as a concept is wrong? that just seems retarded.
It is retarded. You're being retarded. Because the guy you were responding to wasn't saying that "vaccination as a concept is wrong", he was saying that vaccination as actually practiced is flawed, and people need to be able to protect themselves and their children from bad vaccines and bad vaccination programs.

We've had vaccines go very wrong in the past. If done badly enough, they can even infect people with the disease the vaccine is supposed to protect against. Even good vaccines just kill people sometimes.

One of these times, we're going to have a government push everyone to get the same injection, and a year later, half the people who got it are going to be dead. Oopsy. It's kind of like nuclear power that way. The experts say, "trust us, trust us, trust us" but the catastrophic potential never goes away, and human beings make mistakes.

Blindly trusting that any particular program of vaccination is safe and effective is as irrational as blindly assuming every vaccine is going to do more harm than good.

>>7050563
>Scientism
Get off of /sci/ and back to /pol/ then.

>>7050504
You fail
>Sex that is not strictly necessary for reproduction has a chance of spreading STDs. Your personal choice ends when it affects the health of other people.
Not if you use a condom
>Spreading news about government incompetence and corruption causes stress, which causes heart disease and insomnia. Your personal choice ends when it affects the health of other people.
That's the fault of the government being shitty. Plus bitching actually causes relief and lowers heart disease risk.
>Refusing to take the highest-paying job you can get and working as many hours as they'll let you reduces the tax you pay, which means less money for government health programs. Your personal choice ends when it affects the health of other people.
Which means more money is kept by the government to pay for its own programs.
>The freedom to refuse medical treatment, the control over our own bodies, is one of our most sacred freedoms.
This isn't about control over your own body, this is about control over your child's body. Idiot.

>>7050563
And guess what? It got figured out and no one was hurt. So why should anyone care?

>>7050622
>Blindly trusting that any particular program of vaccination is safe and effective is as irrational as blindly assuming every vaccine is going to do more harm than good.
And how are you going to proofcheck in advance which ones of them are "good" and which ones are "bad"? Your entire post just reviews a bad case in retrospective. Should we also refuse every kind of medication because thalidomide happened? Should we refuse to be treated at a hospital because deaths from malpractice happen sometimes?

>>7050653
>It got figured out and no one was hurt.
Except for that mumps outbreak among vaccinated and "immune" people.

Why do you think there's a lawsuit, jackass?

>>7050657
>And how are you going to proofcheck in advance which ones of them are "good" and which ones are "bad"?
Life is complicated, chum. Accept that. Grow past the 14-year-old kid, black-and-white worldview phase.

Ride along on principles without keeping your eyes open to specifics, and sooner or later you coast off a cliff, and wonder how it could have gone wrong, when you were so sure you were right all along, as the ground rushes up at you.

Part of why we defend freedom is so we don't all coast off the same cliff together.

>>7050659
>Vaccines are bad because of a rare case where they don't work

>>7050383
that's a little too much

>>7050360
Why should I care about lack of herd immunization if I am already vaccinated and immune?

>>7050695
Because vaccines don't work 100% of the time you incompetent troll

>>7050695
I'm not even on the vaccine totalitarian side, and I'll tell you that herd immunity is something you should be concerned with even if you've been vaccinated. Vaccines don't work 100%.

Some people become immune, some people die, some people are unaffected. The case for vaccines is that the first number is large, the second number is tiny, and the third is small. Except every once in a while, it turns out differently. And it's not terribly comforting for the families of the people in the second group that the number is small.

In the future, rather than having standard vaccines that are "statistically safe", it is to be hoped that we will have a full understanding of the immune system, and be able to understand the effects such a treatment will have on the individual person before administering it, and possibly be able to tailor a more suitable immune adjustment to them (such as using gene therapy to create an intrinsic immunity rather than manipulating the adaptive immune system with virus fragments).

>>7050558
>And can't be disproven again ju-ju-just because!

What is the proof multiple manufacturers competing won't inherently make better, safer, cheaper products?

>>7050677
So you haven't got any way of proofchecking in advance then?
>Part of why we defend freedom is so we don't all coast off the same cliff together.
The cliff in this case being vaccines or diseases?

>>7050830
>>And can't be disproven again ju-ju-just because!
They can be disproven again. Except for the fact that somebody has to disprove them first. Preferably without making the whole argument up, like a certain scientist did.

>>7050839
And half the population fearing malpractice isn't enough reason to go ahead and do it?!?

>>7050853
Are you implying that they aren't doing it? Nobody denies that there already are multiple proven, documented complications that might arise from vaccination, most notably anaphylaxis. But the benefit outweighs the risks by far, not only for an individual but also for collective society, and the risks are perfectly manageable if the administering doctor isn't a dunce.

>>7050874
Antivaxx idiot

>>7050890
u wot m8

YOU HAVE TO GET VACCINATED BECAUSE I SAY SO

-Everyone in this thread


You shouldn't have to do anything you dont want to do, however if you kids are not vaccinated they should not be able to go to publicly funded institutions, and if you transfer disease to someone it is your fault.

>>7050909
>You shouldn't have to do anything you dont want to do
In my country you're put in jail if you see someone in a burning car on the side of road and don't help. So at least here, you have a certain set of obligations.

>>7050178
So suicide is illegal in the US? That's some pre-20th century shit.

>>7050909
>and if you transfer disease to someone it is your fault.
Oh, for fucks sake.
Who's going to prove you gave them measles?

>>7050909
>You shouldn't have to do anything you dont want to do
>I don't want to go into jail for drunk driving or shooting people, I shouldn't have to

>>7050924
pic related is directed at you, that statement you made was retarded on many levels

>>7050922
if you're stupid enough to not get your or your kids vaccines and they or you get it/give it to someone else its usually easy to tell

>>7050915
sounds like you live in a nanny state

>>7050935
>sounds like you live in a nanny state
If you consider expecting people to live together like humans and not monkeys, then yeah, I live in a nanny state.

>>7050935
Drunk driving endangers innocent people, so does refusing vaccines.

>>7050832
>So you haven't got any way of proofchecking in advance then?
Again, it's about specific cases, not generalities. The problem with your thinking is that you assume there is some set of generalisms which we should all accept as good enough and commit ourselves to together.

Like "vaccines are safe and effective". If you just take that on faith, then you're helpless when a vaccine comes along that's unsafe or ineffective. If you keep your eyes open, there may be indications that a particular vaccine can't be trusted, such as failures of other vaccines. Or you may circumvent the whole issue by finding another way to protect against disease.

Remember that there are many illnesses for which we have no vaccine. Maybe vaccination is fundamentally the wrong approach toward preventing the spread of communicable disease. It gives us a false security, so we live in constant exposure to circumstances where disease can spread rather than arranging our affairs such that diseases will not have opportunities to spread rapidly through the population. We might learn that lesson the hard way after the release of an engineered pathogen into an international airport.

>The cliff in this case being vaccines or diseases?
Either, and any others. Diversity is itself a layer of defense.

You could find a surprise cliff in any direction you go. That's why it's important not to tie everyone together and drive them all in the same direction.

>>7050935
people like you should be put down.

>>7050935
Next time don't say something retarded if you don't want to be called on it.

>>7050947
>people like you
Thank you.

>>7050944
its more complicated then that though

you voluntarily drink, you voluntarily drive

with vaccines you are being forced to put something into your body that you may think legitimately harms you or your children(regardless that it really doesnt) but the point still stands. Forcing vaccines is replacing the choice of parents with the choice of the state. It infringes on peoples freedom and regardless of how abhorrently stupid it is to not do it its still a freedom issue. It's actually a slippery slope concept whats next are you considered a child abuser if you homeschool your kids and dont send them to a public institution maybe not now but given more government control over parental choices it may become an arguement one day.

>>7050947
if you actually read my posts I dont think that you shouldnt get vaccines or that vaccines are harmful I think they are a wonderful addition to society that has saved millions. However I do think government forcing vaccines onto people is a slippery slope of government control that can easily turn sour.

>>7050960
I know

>>7050946
>Again, it's about specific cases, not generalities.
You can't write a law around a few isolated cases that, most importantly, are impossible to predict, and often are the result of breaking a different law anyway.
>Like "vaccines are safe and effective".
Compared to the alternative, no vaccines at all? Yes, they are.
>If you keep your eyes open, there may be indications that a particular vaccine can't be trusted, such as failures of other vaccines.
I wonder how many times has this approach benefitted you so far?
>Or you may circumvent the whole issue by finding another way to protect against disease.
Then go ahead, find it. Prove to those thousands of scientists doing the same that they're all just lazy dumbasses blind to the obvious revolutionary discovery of medicine behind the corner.
Also, what if the effect of this approach would be cumulative with vaccines? What then, WHO-san?
>Remember that there are many illnesses for which we have no vaccine.
And so those illnesses are irrelevant to this discussion.
>It gives us a false security, so we live in constant exposure to circumstances where disease can spread rather than arranging our affairs such that diseases will not have opportunities to spread rapidly through the population.
Wrong. The disease will not spread because without sensitive hosts, it will reduce in numbers, until it dies out. Vaccines allow us to combat disease without having to waste energy and manpower to "arrange our affairs", among other things.
>Either, and any others. Diversity is itself a layer of defense.
Stop applying principles of genetics to transmissible diseases.

>>7050967
>Stop applying principles of genetics to transmissible diseases.
I think that's the only line anyone has to hear from you, to know how much your opinion is worth.

>>7050968
Beautifully meaningless comeback. Now elaborate what's wrong about the single line you've attempted to strawman out.

One thing I forgot to mention to vaccination is that you're completely forgetting about the trend of increasing antibiotic resistance in bacterial diseases. From this standpoint, vaccination is actually slowly becoming even more important than it was before.

>>7050031
No, he deliberatly designed the study & misrepresented his results to come to that conclusion, for profit.

The study was paid for by a team of lawyers trying to sue vax manufacturers for beaucoups bucks.

Plus, he and the lawyers had financial ties to a wanna-be competitor vaccine.

Corruption, not stupidity.

>>7050986
>the single line you've attempted to strawman out.
>attempted to strawman
>by quoting exactly
>this is what I actually think "strawman" means

>>7051007
You've called to dismiss my entire post because of a single line. If that isn't a strawman, then my shoe is a fish. And you still haven't explained what's wrong about that line.

>>7051014
>And you still haven't explained what's wrong about that line.
...and you still haven't realized what's wrong with that line.

>>7051014
terrible just terrible

>>7050935
>People give a solid analogy proving how stupid you are
>B-But it's different!

>>7051123
>mfw you cant fundementally negate what I am saying you just have to use "muh analogies"

>>7049862
That was my first thought too, until I realized that

A) Kids who are immunocompromised and CAN'T get the vaccine because it could kill them needless die from preventable diseases. If you had an otherwise lovable kid with an immune disorder, would you take the chance that some bitch who got her science from JENNY MCfuckingCARTHY would kill your kid?

I'm all for natural selection, but not when they drag other people (who aren't as moronic) down with them.

Lastly, they would eventually take their kid to the hospital when he got very ill/dying and it would take resources away from sick people who weren't fucking idiots. So the kids wouldn't be weeded out via natural selection, they would just inconvenience everyone around them because SCIENCE IS 2 HARD 4 ME :(

Also, what >>7050360 said

>>7050504
>muh slippery slope!
>One day its vaccines, but before you know it its FEMA concentration camps!
>the Nazis injected people against their will too!

Why are my countrymen so fucking hyperbolic?Be fucking practical and get off your high horse. The Constitution is not an excuse to deliberately endanger fellow citizens. It is not a suicide pact. Rights are not absolute. You cannot yell fire in a crowded theater, because citizens have a responsibility that supersedes those rights.

It makes me very, very angry when I read about these parents because its not their health that they're fucking with, its their fucking child's. Getting your children vaccinated should not be a fucking debate but evidently some Americans evidently have a medieval knowledge of science. Clearly they weren't alive when children died by the thousands to measles, mumps and rubella.

The government exists (among other reasons) to help those who cannot help themselves. If parents can't even take the health of their own children, then the government needs to step in and require it.

Fuck.

>>7050245
Obviously not him, but that's not how arguments work, just so you know.

>>7051222
>Getting your children vaccinated should not be a fucking debate
Yes. We should have no debate on vaccine production quality and the harm of contaminants or preservatives, on the need to develop ways to identify those people who are going to suffer side-effects ranging up to death, on the potential for non-immediate side-effects which are difficult to recognize or study, on the long-term dysgenic effects of vaccination, on more advanced immunization techniques which may emerge in the near future, or anything else relating to vaccination of children by government programs.

The 20th century mainstream medical understanding of vaccines should be the final answer. That's just how science works: by giving us eternal truths which must not be questioned.

>>7050092
>Calling yourself a free man
>In a deterministic world
Made me chuckle.
>>7050054
Do you know what a society is? It's chains, my friend. Necessary chains.

>>7051257
You can't read well, can you?

>Everyone should eat
>Yes we should not question what we eat blah blah I'm a fucking retard
That was your response.

>>7050967
> slippery slope

This is a line I have heard many times from reactionary right wingers (not that that's what you are necessarily!)

It suggests that it's not this issue you're actually worried about, rather you're fighting against the issues you think will come after, in this snowballing 'slippery slope' effect.

Why not fight THOSE battles instead? When the slope has slipped (which it may never, I don't think it works that way myself) and the government are doing evil things, why not fight THAT battle?

We'll probably all join up with you

>>7051179
I can.
You being an idiot kills innocent people so we are making it illegal for you to be an idiot.

Antivaxxers are a bunch of children that never grew up.
>I WANT MUH FREEDUMS
>BUT I DON'T WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME

When my nephew had fits like that I would lift him throw him into the icy lake.

Later on when he still had fits like that, he went through worse in the military until he learned not to have them.

Maybe the US government should ask the canadians to find a big cold lake and export the loonies there.

>>7050191
>forcing rifd chips and medication on children
The land of the free and the home of the brave!

>>7051576
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.

ITT: autism
People who don't vaccinate their kids are retarded. People that think that any type of medical treatment or procedure should be made mandatory and forced upon someone are more retarded. This is literally the same as banning cigarettes due to concerns about second hand smoke

It doesn't matter, if it gets approved it will get overturned by the Supreme Court

>>7051586
and borderline ban on soft-drinks

>I want the government to be able to force everyone to get injections

Oh liberals

>>7051597
>I want the option to be allowed to drive a car without insurance

Vaccinations are only required for school, so just don't send them to public school.

>>7051600
If the insurance was free, there would be no problem. With rules like this you might as well go full commie.

>>7051600
>mfw sci can't into analogies
A better analogy would be the government forcing everyone to be circumcised

>>7051608
Your kid being circumcised doesn't affect me, your kid not getting immunized puts everyone else's kid at risk

>>7051607
Let me make sure I understand you right, because I can't believe somebody could be so retarded.

You actually believe that mandatory car insurance is communism.
You actually think that mandatory car insurance is communism

>>7051613
Un-circumcised cocks have been linked to transmission of HIV.

>>7051613
You're stupid as fuck. Especially f you think this is constitutional and won't be immediately overturned by the Supreme Court >>7051614

>>7051613
You being alive puts everyone at risk. Should we say the government should kill you and anyone else it wants to?

>>7051615
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=279008
meta-analysis
"insufficient evidence"

>>7051619
nice argument fagtron you really convinced me with those hot opinions

>>7051623
And here I thought conservatards supported the death penalty

>>7051625
>And here I thought conservatards supported the death penalty

That didn't answer my question.

>>7051625
>the constitution is an opinion
Fucking kill yourself you're so fucking stupid

>>7051630
> what is and isn't constitutional isn't an opinion

>>7051629
Yes, I side with the GOP and the Jew book that a man committing murder sufficiently demonstrates that he poses too great a risk to society to be allowed to live and for a government judge to have the option of sentencing him to death

>>7051630
>the constitution supports my right to evade taxes and shout fire in crowded theaters
haha nice one

>>7051635
It's not you stupid fuck

>>7051643
So you're saying simply existing is equivalent to murder?

>>7051647
That comes straight from your mental processes, friendo.

All I said was the the government has a duty to manage risk to its citizens, and this sometimes involves trampling over personal freedom. Examples

-requiring insurance if you drive
-requiring immunization if you go to school
-requiring death/imprisonment if you murder

I don't know where you pulled muder=existence out of that.

>>7051654
You being alive is a risk to everyone. To manage that risk, should the government be allowed to kill you?

>>7051614
>system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.
The only difference is that there are two real parties, and that my money is only partially mine.

>>7051654
>requiring death/imprisonment if you murder
Going to school and driving isn't a crime.

>>7051656
If the risk is big enough as demonstrated by you having murdered somebody, then yes. As is the case in 32 states today.

>>7051645
nigga all about the constitution but doesn't even know his own history
http://mrkash.com/activities/hamiltonjefferson.html

>>7051659
It's an activity that poses risk to other people. Negligence is a crime.

>>7051645
Why would the supreme court judges ever disagree with each other then?
Why shouldn't there be just one judge?

>>7051662
Ignoring all the other problems:

I've never been in an accident. I've never been sick with anything except the common cold. Why should it be OK for the government to steal my money and to force me to have chemicals of their choosing injected into me? If me not murdering someone yet is proof enough that I don't need to be killed, then surely those things are proof enough that I don't need to be the victim of theft and assault.

>>7051668
Because a sample size of 1 is useless for anything but masturbation. You don't live in a bubble and you have to follow the same standards everyone else does. If you don't like it you can move to a country where everyone has a great immune system and drives just as well as you do.

>>7051670
Why is my sample size of 1 invalid but yours is valid?

The government just passed a law that allows them to kill you. If you try to complain, you're wrong because you can just move to a different country. Sounds reasonable, right?

>>7051662
>It's an activity that poses risk to other people.
Every activity poses a risk though. You are emitting radioactive particles right now, why are you not punished for spreading cancer?

>>7051670
>If you don't like it you can move to a country where everyone has a great immune system and drives just as well as you do.

Why would he? This country needs more like him.

>>7051675
I didn't present a sample size of 1. That would be me saying I got into a car crash or that I had measles when I was a kid.

I never did. What I'm presenting is that it is a statistical fact that 100% vaccination prevents polio outbreaks and that accidents happen - and when they do some people are unable to pay out of pocket.

>>7051678
Because you weren't good at math in school and don't understand the concept of different amounts of risk

>>7051675
>Why is my sample size of 1 invalid
Because this is not about you, boy.

>>7051684
>different amounts of risk
How much risk is acceptable to you and why not less?

>>7051684
Yes you did. You said the fact that you haven't murdered anyone is good enough to demonstrate that you don't deserve to be killed.

What's wrong with a few retards dying? Too many fucking people in california anyway. People dying from not being vaccinated is good motivation to get vaccinated. I'm totally against this mandated vaccine shit. They can shove that up their god damn ass. Next thing is going to be everyone who refuses is now a terrorist and can be thrown in prison. Not fucking cool to be infringing on right nigga. Deaths are incentive enough.

>>7051689
The opposite, in fact. I said that people who murdered demonstrate that they can be sentenced to death. There were about 15,000 of those last year.

>>7051688
0.1 nanosieverts from a banana is acceptable to me. One sievert carries with it a 5.5% chance of eventually developing cancer, so that's about a 0.00000000055% chance of cancer. That's acceptable.

>>7051694
Why are there so many people unfamiliar with basic science and math on /sci/ today
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

>>7051695
You're saying that only those people should be sentenced to death. Why shouldn't only the people who get in accidents or have serious illnesses have their money stolen and assaulted with chemicals?

>>7051697
Because one takes place before the fact and the other takes place after?

>>7051698
What takes place before what and what takes place after what?

>>7049844
>We may win the fight.

No, we're losing. Let retarded children of retarded parents die.

>>7051699
Death penalty happens after murder because you can't pre-emptively punish criminals. Insurance and immunization (should have) happened before the disease/accident because it doesn't help afterwards.

>>7051700
>>7051696

>>7051702
Why is preemptively punishing people for crimes not allowed but preemptively punishing people for driving and living allowed?

>>7051695
>0.00000000055% chance of cancer.
You haven't explained why less risk should not be the legal standard.

>>7051703
Because one is impractical and high-cost (in terms of money, rights, and life) and the other is not

>>7051706
Both sets are high-cost in those regards.

>>7050909
>YOU HAVE TO GET VACCINATED BECAUSE I SAY SO
>This laws are to prevent outbreaks of preventable diseases and avoid to pay and deal with people with no reason to be sick, this is not about you but the general public
So you are just some dense motherfucker.

>>7051705
There is no mathematical legal standard for risk. Determining acceptable risk is like half of what government is about. People go to school for that shit, nigga. Risk analyses, econ, public policy. If you think the increased risk of polio is an acceptable trade-off for letting people send their unimmunized kids to school because they think vaccines cause autism, then you should let your local representative know and he'll think about it. Or why not become a public policy maker? But you'd damn better know exactly what you're talking about.

>>7051707
You are arguing that being killed is as bad as paying $100 a month for insurance and I think you should think about that.

>>7051715
No, I'm arguing that using force to potentially prevent a bad outcome is the same as using force to potentially prevent a bad outcome.

>>7051717
Sorry, let me rephrase.

I'm saying the initiation of force to potentially prevent a bad outcome is the same as the initiation of force to potentially prevent a bad outcome.

>>7051717
So are you saying that we (or the government) should never use force to potentially prevent a bad outcome?

Don't ban the sale of alcohol to minors, no OSHA, no FDA?

>>7051722
There should be no initiation of force, correct.

>>7051724
That's pretty hardcore libertarianism. I sympathize, but I don't think it's entirely practical.

Anyway we've been talking politics instead of science for the past few exchanges, so I think it's time for me to exit.

>>7051715
>If you think the increased risk of polio is an acceptable trade-off for letting people send their unimmunized kids to school because they think vaccines cause autism,

Its not about autism, I just don't want anyone forcing me to get injected with a substance they deem necessary for the greater good™. Personally a risk of even 1% of death is worth my freedoms. The only way I would accept something like this, is if I don't have to pay for it and the research (including the entire process they used to manufacture the drug/vaccine and the names of all the staff working there) done on that particular substance is released to the public.

>>7051278

>>7051586
No, forced vaccination is more like tying down a raving patient in order to prevent them from hurting themselves and others.

See, we don't need to tie down every person, because they're not afflicted in such a way as to be a threat.

And we don't need to forcibly vaccinate most people because they're not idiots.

It's just that some people are showing that they're not responsible adults and thus need to be forced to conduct themselves in a civilized manner.

I'm not expecting USA to do that, because it's a nation of man-children who don't want to eat their veggies or take a nap or behave in public even if you tell them they can't have candy today.

To paraphrase Norbert Wiener's thoughts on a semi-topical matter:

Not having had children would render them still safer from transmittable disease.

>>7051740
>Norbert Wiener
who are you and what are you doing on /sci/?

>>7051745
I'm sorry was that insult or accolade?

>>7051696
Except i have a degree in physics and math and referencing some shit off of wikipedia doesn't mean shit you stupid faggot. Go shove a dick in your ass please.
>herd derrr herd immunity
>solves the argument ayy?

Fuck face nigger. Go tongue some other boards anus please

>>7051739
> we don't need to tie down every person, because they're not afflicted in such a way as to be a threat.
In other words you will tie down everyone, but to avoid forced injection and punishment most accept their fate and force themselves to "want" it.
>man-children
moe.jpg

>>7051748
>i have a degree in physics and math
>I am qualified to practice medicine
ayyyy

>>7051751
>Not realizing this is bait

>>7051727
Are you retarded? Every drug and vaccine process is released to the public, you can go to pubmed any time you want, every drug ever made needs to publish their results and the same goes for vaccines, there is a large process before a vaccine touches a human.
>Personally a risk of even 1% of death is worth my freedoms
Well guess what? The government doesn't think is viable face an outbreak of a preventable disease and then paying to treat everyone, prevention is much cheaper and practical than treatment.

>>7051751
Point was i understand basic math and science. I don't really give a fuck about the vaccination shit aside from it being mandatory. I shouldn't have to wear a seat belt either but whatever. I just don't want this to escalate to other freedoms being taken away and the fact that their taking away someones freedom of choice bothers me.
>inb4 you think you have freedom of choice
>inb4 there is no free will
>inb4 when we die nothing happens so it doesn't matter anyway

>>7051757
>I shouldn't have to wear a seat belt either
Either you are a legit idiot or you are a master baiter.

>>7051750
>exactly the opposite of what was said
See, that's what blind obedience to an ideology does to you. It retards your sight and makes you see reality in a twisted way.

Also
>being on 4chan and not wanting to be the little girl

But I understand, not wanting to face reality is also part of being a child. We'll have this conversation again and again until you become an adult and I either see that you'll never grow up or you do and see for yourself how dumb your current notions were.

>>7051766
>exactly the opposite
Except it isn't. The amount of people getting forced, the punishment you will receive for refusing and even the threat level of those too afraid to say no is completely unchanged.

>not wanting to face reality is also part of being a child
This is coming from a guy in his 20s who wishes to be a little girl so he can play dress-up with other children. No wonder your views are so messed up.

>>7051758
He does have a point. He really shouldn't have to wear a seatbelt.

No the government should not protect people from their own stupidity; doing so only breeds the incapacity to protect oneself from stupidity.

Also the argument against forced vaccines from the liberty perspective does fall short when it's raised that one isn't talking about personal liberty anyway because kids don't get a choice. If one was consistent in their desire for personal liberty they would have to give children the choice rather than parents.
Indeed, having let parents choose in the past probably was the mental impetus justifying the current acceptance of government forcing vaccination.

>>7051783
>Except it isn't. The amount of people getting forced, the punishment you will receive for refusing and even the threat level of those too afraid to say no is completely unchanged.
That's part of being an adult; realizing that some people won't do the right thing no matter how much sense it makes. And realizing that laws and punishments are there to keep the idiots and the assholes in check.

>This is coming from a guy in his 20s who wishes to be a little girl so he can play dress-up with other children. No wonder your views are so messed up.
Lurk moar newfag.

>>7051784
Instead of wearing the seatbelt, vaccinations are better compared to speed limits. Wearing a seatbelt doesn't really affect anyone else but the asshole him/herself, but not obeying the speed limit also puts your passengers and other road users at risk.

If everyone was sane and smart, we wouldn't need speed limits or wouldn't need to coerce people to vaccinate their kids, because everyone would drive at safe speeds and vaccinate their kids as a matter of course.

>>7051789
>Instead of wearing the seatbelt, vaccinations are better compared to speed limits.
Yeah I wasn't talking about its relation to the vaccine 'argument' though.
Purely the seatbealt case, people should be able to choose if they want to or not; perhaps on the proviso that they're the ones driving.

>>7051784
Thing is, we live in a society. We all live together and like it or not the actions of others affect the rest and we can't just let people fuck each other for the sake of individual commodities
That's why public health is a thing or any norms that regulate large masses of people, if anyone is so entitles to live in total freedom without regard of other then there is no other option but to go and live in some isolated community.

Also most of the time people are not stupid, just ignorant.

>>7051800
I see no problem with that. Evolution in action and all that.

>>7051809
Is it not troubling that you are not afforded this freedom over your own person?

>>7051810
No.

Because it's
a) not something desirable unless I was an idiot or in dire need
b) a freedom I can have any time if I accept the consequences to myself in said dire need or in case I lose function in my brain enough that I consider it something desirable.

I'd say keep the personal belief exemptions, let natural selection do its thing, but group those unvaccinated fuckers without immunity disorders with other unvaccinated fuckers. people with immunity disorders need to be protected by herd immunity, but if you're being a dick and putting people at risk because you refuse to vaccinate your children, your family should suffer the consequences. a pox on you and your entire house.
for the record, I'm autistic, i was diagnosed years ago. i've been in school with autistic people for most of my life. these people don't understand how offensive they're being, and they don't understand how dickish they are. they seem to think Autism is the worst thing in the world, the worst thing about it for me is the fact that I just can't "people" well, and tend to not understand societal boundaries. assuming there was even a link between autism and vaccines (there's not), would you rather your child have a neurological disorder that can vary in severity, or have your child acquire permanent neurological damage that can cause them to go deaf or even die?

>>7051824
Fair enough, I can't fault you for that.

Actually thought of a good counter to myself along the lines of..
Well if you don't care enough about your life to protect it [via seatbelts] then it's up for grabs to anyone who wants to claim control of it.

>>7051829
Can always have another kid if one dies; actually death is somewhat preferable economically than caring permanently for a disabled one.

>>7051789
>realizing that laws and punishments are there to keep the idiots and the assholes in check
You do realize that these idiots and assholes (everyone) make the laws, decide the punishments and that they have been wrong plenty of times, right?
>actually believes moeshit makes him an oldfag
>>>/b/

>>7051829
>let natural selection do its thing
What if it leads to a strain of super immune humans?

>>7051836
Saying that the system has faults does not diminish the need for the system.

Moeshit isn't what makes me an oldfag. But your not lurking moar makes you a newfag. Which is why you need to lurk moar.

Actually, you should lurk moar in other avenues also. It would do you some good.

>>7050489
> you're proposing I run a daily risk of having all that ruined
I got some bad news for you, sunshine. If you drive, you run a MUCH higher risk of getting your nuts chopped off and shoved up your own ass by twisted bits of what used to be your car than catching measles.

Not that you wouldn't enjoy that.

> People are getting stupider and stupider.
Yes, you are. If YOU are vaccinated, it doesn't matter whether or not someone else has the disease. You are still - well, vaccinated against it.

Politicians are simply taking advantage of the general public's ass numbing stupidity about how vaccines work to score a few brownie points.

And you're willing to throw the First Amendment right out the fucking window at the first hint that your snowflake might become a little less special. Fuck you.

>>7051850
>Saying that the system has faults does not diminish the need for the system.
No, but it only legitimizes a system that increases your freedom over one that doesn't.
>meme buzzword spouting and screaming drawn girls makes me an oldfag
Be honest, how new are you? 2013?

>>7051866
But that's just it, it DOES increase our freedom. From ignorant plaguebags that don't understand the need for vaccinations. The freedom for life is more important than freedom for ignorance.

Even if I was the newest of newfags here, it wouldn't make what I say any less true. And neither do these pictures. So unless you have any MEANINGFUL arguments to deify your ignorance and the importance of ignorance...?

>>7051874
>But that's just it, it DOES increase our freedom. From ignorant plaguebags that don't understand the need for vaccinations.
That's not "freedom" in the sense we're talking about here. That's safety.

Honestly, unless there's some immediate and specific threat, I can't see that the (likely small) increase in vaccine converge is worth the rather large loss in bodily autonomy that this represents.

>>7051906
Just because there's no immediate and specific threat to YOU, does not mean that it does not exist. People with bad immune systems have already gotten sick from unvaccinated people. I'm pretty sure there have also been cases of death due to same, but I'm too tired to google for it.

But even if there haven't yet been deaths, the risk IS there.

>>7051915
>Just because there's no immediate and specific threat to YOU, does not mean that it does not exist.
Sorry, I should clarify; I meant a serious epidemic or something.

>People with bad immune systems have already gotten sick from unvaccinated people. I'm pretty sure there have also been cases of death due to same, but I'm too tired to google for it.
Of course, and we should do what we can to encourage people to take vaccines whenever possible.

>But even if there haven't yet been deaths, the risk IS there.
I understand.
However, medical autonomy is also a really big deal. Taking that away from people is an serious infringement of their fundamental rights, and it would only be justifiable in an extreme risk to life.
Also, I'm not convinced that mandating vaccinations will actually substantially increase the number of people actually getting them. I suspect many of the anti-vax people would just pressure their way into getting a medical exemption, and any people "on the fence" could probably be prodded into vaccination by less extreme measures anyway.

>>7051938
>pressure their way into getting a medical exemption
Damn, I'm sorry if that's possible where you live. Doctors here would(and have) lose their face, license and job in case something like that came to light.

>>7051956
I'm not if that's actually happened here, but "here" is Australia so it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
>Google...
OH FUCK ME
http://rt.com/news/227011-australia-anti-vaccination-church/
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/anti-vaccine-zealots-form-sham-church/story-fneuzlbd-1226653266194
http://churchofcl.com/

>>7051966
Yeah, the dregs of US culture are insidious and the worst aspects infiltrate every country :P

>>7050504

Even ignoring your apparent inability to understand that rights vs. responsibilities is about balance, and not absolutes on either side, your argument about the freedom to refuse medical treatment falls apart because it's actually parents refusing medical treatment for their children, not the children themselves refusing it.

An adult has the right to make questionable decisions, such as becoming an alcoholic or refusing medical treatment. That does not mean that they have the right to forcefeed their children alcohol or deny them potentially lifesaving medicine.

>>7050574

Define "drives more technological progress". Show some hard numbers.

And personally, I would care more about quality of life than raw GDP.

>>7051852
>Cars are more dangerous
You're more likely to die in a car wreck than from food poisoning, so food service people shouldn't have to wash their hands.
You're more likely to die in a car wreck than from an electric housefire, so electrician's shouldn't have to be licenced
You're more likely to die in a car wreck than [insert preventable cause of death], so [muh freedums muhfugguh].

>If YOU are vaccinated, it doesn't matter whether or not someone else has the disease
Unless the vaccine doesn't work, which happens with a small percentage. Or it does work, but you unwittingly become a vector from one person to another. Or your kid gets it before they're old enough to get their shots. Etc.

>FIRST AMENDMENT
I assume you're referring to freedom of religion. Refusing vaccines for your children is bannable for the same reason that we can ban snakehandling baptist services, especially where kids are involved. Safety trumps Bae Jeebus.

If you're not referring to religion, then refusing vaccinations to your kids is
a)Speech
b)petition
c)press
d)assembly
Pick none, and you're a fucking idiot.

The first amendment is not a guarantee to do whatever you want.

>>7051735
I laughed. You're a funny guy, anon.

This thread is awful, I had no idea people would be so opposed to mandatory vaccinations. Autism fears I could understand, because that was a popular opinion once upon a time. But this "1984 is here!" crap is ridiculous.

>>7053579
In truth, imo it has nothing to do with the vaccines themselves but the general principle given the context of the last number of years.