/sci/ - Science & Math

>>7002386
bump

How accurate of a copy do you need?
If you just want an outline of who you were we could kind of do that today but the recording process would take a lot of time and work.
If you really want the whole thing we are going to need a lot more memory than is currently available.
Also, even if we have a complete recording we do not have a CPU that could "run" it anywhere near real time.

>>7002477
>How accurate of a copy do you need?
How would you judge the closeness of the copy tho?

>>7002506
>does it display behavior and phenomena matching the original within tolerance x

Or run a checksum lol

Why would your mind be worth saving?

>mind uploading

K3k. This will never happen. People just enjoy talking about futuristic ideas. Like they enjoy talking about the ethics of AI when this won't be a concern for many many years. You can't transfer your consciousness out of your brain. You can't copy it either. It's stuck there. Deal with it.

>>7002848
>implying that consciousness exists in that form at all
dat cognitive dissonance

>>7002757
>What is a human being good for?

This should already be abundantly clear if you are capable of understanding this sentence.

>>7002848
>Airplanes will never happen people just like to talk about futuristic shit.
>Personal Computers will never happen people just like to talk about futuristic shit
>Space stations will never happen people just like to talk about futuristic shit
>Predicting the weather will never happen people just like to talk about futuristic shit

>>7002967
So you believe we can do anything with enough time? Do you also believe that we will be able to build a time machine some day?

>>7002848
>Consciousness is magic and dualism.
Top kek as you would say.

>>7002386
>I've been reading about mind upload for few years now
But what have you contributed to the field? Your mind won't upload if no one builds a machine to do it.

>>7002978
Just because it exists doesn't mean that it will be possible to copy it and upload it.

>>7002969
I'm just saying that its a shit argument to say that its futuristic shit and it won't happen. It doesn't add anything to the discussion. Of course things that are not physically possible won't happen given enough time, but then at least you would have made a reasonable argument by explaining why such a technology would not be physically possible.

>>7002386
>What are some of the challenges to mind uploading.
Simulation hardware.
Simulation software.
Scanning tech.
Some gaps in theory of how the mind operates, but these may not be solved before uploading is possible either.

>>7002757
>Why would your mind be worth saving?
Why would your life be worth saving? Why do we have hospitals?

>>7002983
>Just because it exists doesn't mean that it will be possible to copy it and upload it.

You can't eat your cake and have it, you either argue for magic and dualism or you'll agree that the mind can be copied and uploaded.

>>7002986
>Why would your life be worth saving? Why do we have hospitals?
Because you're a workforce. A brain doesn't have hands, especially not a digital image of it.

>>7003001
>Everyone works with burger flipping!
>Robots arms aren't invented yet!
Seems like your hands doesn't have brain.

>>7003001
>Guy arrives at hospital with hands blown off
>"You no longer workforce, go wait in morgue for death."

>>7003001
>Retired person arrives at hospital with broken leg
>"You no longer workforce, go wait in morgue for death."

>>7002993
lolwat

>>7002386
I think that copying the structiure of a brain and storing it on a computer is the best thing we'll get.

You won't be able to "be" the uploaded data. Your consciousness will stay in your body.

Simulating a whole brain? I don't think it'll be possible with modern, silicon based technology. Maybe with quantum computers, but they're still a work in progress.

>>7002993
can you copy and upload the weather to a computer? or is it magic?

>>7003029
>Your consciousness will stay in your body.

Is what your body will believe if you can upload through nonfatal means.

Your upload will believe that some clone residue was left in the normal body.

If we create ten clones of the upload and have them meet in a room after the upload they'll all be utterly convinced that they are the true one and the others are just some clones.

If we wake the upload in a computer simulation of a hospital bed, it will believe it's the flesh one post-upload until we reveal the truth.

Consciousness doesn't stay anywhere, it's generated by a structure and fed an illusory belief in continuity by memory and whatnot. If we clone a mind it will briefly generate two identical consciousnesses before they start to diverge due to different environment. The brain may be an original and one clone, but the consciousness created will both be new.

>20 years in the future
>mind upload is now
>become immortal today
>go and upload your mind
>see yourself on the screen
>why am i still here, i should be on the screen
>goodbye anon
>mind uploader shoots you in the head

>>7003049
>muh continous unique soul!
Mind upload will also be postmortem only for a long while. It's a shitload easier to scan a dead brain that can be removed from the skull and stained and sliced than one living still inside the head.

So a Humanity First Realist Cultist will shoot you, then you'll be uploaded and wired into combat machinery to return the favor.

>>7003029
>Your consciousness will stay in your body.
What if we could extract and move it?

>>7002386
If you believe in mind uploading, you're a delusional faggot who has no idea of what he's talking about, and you should go back to LessWrong.

Best regards, a transhumanist

>>7003046
My upload won't believe anything because it's just going to be binary data, basically a very long string of 0s and 1s.

>>7003057
We don't know how it works, how it's stored and without that, ectracting and moving it around is impossible.

This is more an /x/ type of thread, but if you guys, OP, especially you, post some serious literature about this subject, this thread will have the potential to not be yet another thread full of bullshit, speculation and fantasies.

Any recent academic articles on the subject?

>>7003059
>Best regards, a dualist

>>7003069
>it's just going to be binary data because muh dualism!

in b4
>It's not dualism, it's just a magical soul that cannot be moved or replicated except in natural human minds.

>>7003072
I just don't understand the purpose of creating multiple copies of yourself. That will not grant you immortality in any way, despite what you may think. There's no amount of meaningless philosophical masturbation that could change this clear, basic principle.

>>7003076
>Be dead
>scan dead brain
>simulate dead brain
>alive again

>B-b-b-but it's not you!
Neither am I after sleeping.

>>7003083
I will have to repeat myself: there's no mental masturbation that can change how things in reality are.

You are acting in a completely irrational way.

>>7002386

http://www.reddit.com/r/Digital_Immortality

These guys have some pretty cool ideas how it could be done without losing consciousness throughout the process

>>7003089
>I belive in magic souls and call people irrational

>>7003089
>>7003083
Im sure you they used your brain, it would still be you, regardless if you died or not.

>>7003093
I believe in the brain. YOU are the believer in magical souls, my dear teenager who just got a boner over kurzweil's wikipedia page.

>Pre upload:
>No Dave, don't upload it's suicide!
>Nah that's just your opinion man.

>Post upload:
>Sup fags, Dave here.
>But Dave you killed yourself!
>Nah bro, I feel pretty damn alive still.
>But muh magic dualism and soul! you're just digital information now!
>Whatever, I'm going to have skydiving sex on VR-jupiter now, bye.

Such horrors await us.

>>7002386
Mind uploading is spawning a clone.
If you want to actually not die and enjoy the universe yourself, brain synthesis is where it's at.

Spawning a clone is the next best thing though, way better than fathering child.

>>7003108
>I believe in the brain.
Spoken like a clueless idiot. I don't need to believe in the brain I know it's there.

You're not your brain however. You're a function of your brain. Disrupt the function of the brain and you lose consciousness, replicate the function on other hardware and you'll be alive even without the neurons present.

>>7003109
Oh, I'm sure it will happen. It will 100% happen. Your clone will have so much fun while you're rotting in the ground!

Let's put it in this way: suppose there is a God and he creates an exact copy of yourself, standing in front of you. Are you him?

You will answer yes, and that's the reason why you should be gassed in Auschwitz together with all the other philosofags who pretend to be smart.

>>7003116

>>7003116
>Are you him?
Yes.
There's no persistence to consciousness, only to memory. Both would branch off into unique persons from the splitting point though. Just like you branch off into another unique person from every instant of your life.

Assume that god vaporizes your brain and create a new one in the same state out of other atoms in an instant. No magic transition, just life as usual for you.

Now assume this happens 100 times a second for the rest of your life. This is pretty much what happens, the brain isn't vaporized, but your current slice of consciousness is. You're something transient that's recreated, the brain tissue is persistent and memory is persistent, but you're not your memory and you're not your brain tissue, you're just a brief spark. Poof, gone, replaced with a new spark.

>>7003115
You are your brain. It's the only way to get around the problem of multiple copies, no replications allowed!

>>7003117
These trans-humans are the dualists. Your not your physical brain, you're your "consciousness" (soul).

>>7003137
I...
Do you even know what you just typed.
Are you serious.

>>7003135
You are a transient instantaneous consciousness. That way there are no problems.

If you're your brain you're going to spend the rest of your life submerged in thought experiment about nanomachines altering your brain and hemisphere transplants.

>>7003135
I would even add this: you are your brain, with spatial and temporal "continuity".

If there is another perfect copy of your brain in another galaxy, thinking the same things I am thinking now, he's still not me: spatial continuity is lacking. If 100000 years after I'm dead a brain like mine is recreated where my original one was buried, it would still lack temporal continuity.

These are not professional terms and I'm not a native speaker, but I guess that the concept is clear. It's the only way of getting around this "paradox"

>>7003142
If you have an objection state it.

>>7003137
*You are not your...

>>7003145
>you are the soul
>im not a dualist btw :3
Are you mentally-challenged.

>>7003143
With spatial and temporal continuity with the original brain, the one at birth, this gets around the ship of Theseus problem.

>>7003148
I never said you are the soul, I said you are your original brain, which is a physical object. Trans-humans think it isn't the brain that is important but some vaguely defined consciousness independent of the brain, which can be replicated in other media, much like a soul in mythology can be transferred between bodies, reincarnation and the like. I don't believe in souls.

>>7003151
I transplant your right hemisphere into another person and his right hemisphere into your brain, what happens?

I do the same but with smaller parts.

I make a nanomachine that slowly replaces your brain with prostethics.
I make a nanomachine that instantly replaces your entire brain with prostethics.

>>7003159
Minduploadfags are a subset of transhumanists and are all faggots without exceptions.
Please remember that in the future.

Also, i refered to the following when insulting you.
>These trans-humans are the dualists. Your not your physical brain, you're your "consciousness" (soul).
This sentence stated the opposite of your intent.
>These trans-humans are the dualists. [They believe that] Your not your physical brain, you're your "consciousness" (soul).
This was probably what you meant.

>>7003166
Physical continuity lost (at the molecular level, like in actual brains), identity destroyed.

>>7003166
>I make a nanomachine that slowly replaces your brain with prostethics.
Brain synthesis. Ship of theseus. No issue.
>I make a nanomachine that instantly replaces your entire brain with prostethics.
Suicide and spawning a clone. Swampman.

>>7003168
Yes that's what I meant. And yes mind-uploading is a form of trans-humanism, I disagree with it.

>>7003171
I think it depends on the level the nano-machines act, if they kill neurons wholesale, I'd say relevant continuity is broken, as actual brains don't tend to kill off (often) entire neurons, their constituents get replace gradually at the molecular level, but the cell itself lives on. I would take some nano-machine to pick apart a cell molecule by molecule, and replace each one with some functional equivalent.

>>7003171
>>7003169
The fact that you need to rely on special explanation for each case means that you're wrong according to occams razor.

I've been reading about mind upload and neuroscientist Randal Koene who is gonna make it happen:


http://www.popsci.com/article/science/neuroscientist-who-wants-upload-humanity-computer

Neurosci people... question... are action potential necessary to recover the memories or can you figure out everything just from the connections that each cell makes to other cells?

ps: the link above is a MUST READ!

>>7003407
Connections alone are insufficient. You would need to know spike train rhythms for starters

>>7003434
those can be derived from the connections tho.