/sci/ - Science & Math

>>6660426
Common core is criticized because it frames mathematics in a difficult light in a society that already has immense difficulties with mathematics.

It seems to be this general cultural delusion that math is somehow a difficult process and that the way to learn it should then be difficult as well. So they design unnecessary and convoluted steps to figuring out a simple math problem. This is an issue because the longer this goes on, math is going to become less and less known to the general public because they're not taught how to do it, they're taught why they should continue to be afraid of it.

Math is simple. It should be taught simply.

>>6660441

But the whole point of CC is to make math more intuitive.

>>6660445
I actually think it does this relatively successfully. There are a lot of non- arguments against the cc mostly about how this is magic math where 2+2 is 5. However, there are honest sustainable criticisms in its implementation, mainly that it's a giant scam run by Pearson. They make money from the textbooks, workbooks, standardized tests, and the testing itself.

I'm not really sure about how a lot of the curriculum is being implemented in the CC outside of some explanations from proponents as well as angry mothers, but just from the sound of it, in terms of teaching mathematics, it sounds like a huge waste of time. Instead of actually expecting more from students and pushing for teaching more complex math concepts they seem to instead be focusing on taking math education at an even slower pace and reteaching simple procedures like multiplication, division, etc. in numerous different ways. As far as I'm concerned this is just a waste of time and would only serve to confuse most students. I think the focus on math education especially should be holding students to a higher standard in the US, but instead we seem to keep dumbing down the curriculum and expecting less from students, which only serves to exacerbate our lagging math education relative to other developed countries.

Personally, I find it rather embarrassing that a transfer student from Russia can have such an easy time a math class in the US because they already learned those concepts years beforehand while American students of the same age struggle with it.

>>6660684
Difficult math is racist.

If blacks can't do it, no-one is allowed to.

>>6660697
Yeah, you're right. What am I saying. I forgot how if you actually try to succeed in academics it automatically makes you "white" and un-thuglike or whatever.

>>6660684
>>6660707

What the hell are you talking about? White Americans think that only Asians and broken-brained autistics can understand math.

How long until any benefit of common core is destroyed because of it's inherit and obvious racism.

It was made by racist white people.

>>6660717
Fuck off back to /pol/, stormfront.

When you are allowed to have opinions, black people will tell you.

>>6660717
>White Americans think that only Asians and broken-brained autistics can understand math.
They're still statistically better at it than black americans. And in (largely public) high schools (and probably before then as well) when a black kid excels in academics (math, lit, whatever) they're considered "white" and marginalized by their black peers.

>>6660717
>What the hell are you talking about? White Americans think that only Asians and broken-brained autistics can understand math.

In a lot of ways, perceptions of Asians (and Jews) in white culture is the same as perceptions of whites in black culture.

But that has nothing to do with this topic, really.

>>6660723
this. so fucking hard. as a nerdy white kid in a mostly black/hispanic school i got picked on for sure. but you know who got it the worst? the black nerd kids.

>>6660426
Because the common core should be more like this

>1st Grade
Basic addition/subtraction
>2nd Grade
Basic times tables/fractions
>3rd Grade
Division, Powers, Roots, Primes
>4th grade
Algebra
>5th Grade
Geometry, Logic, Sets, Combinatorics, Proofs
>6th Grade
Higher order Algebra. Trig, Exponential, Logs, Series, Sums, Limits
>7th Grade
Calculus, Matrix Algebra
Chemistry
>8th Grade
Vector Calculus, ODEs
Mechanics, Thermodynamics
C++ Programming
>9th Grade
Linear Algebra, Probability, Statistics
Electromagnetism, Circuits
Digital Logic, Comp Arch
>10th Grade
Real Analysis, Abstract Algebra
Stat Mechanic, Optics, Advance Mechanics and Special Relativity
Data Structures and Algorithms
American Government and Political Science
>11th Grade
PDEs, Complex Analysis, Fourier Analysis
Quantum Mechanics
Numerical Analysis, OS, Parallel Programing
Macro & Micro Economics
>12th Grade
Money and Banking, Finance
Electives (Organic Chem, Biology, GR, Astrophysics, Robotics, Comp Vision, etc...)

>>6660743
>C++
FUCKING DROPPED

>>6660441
>Math is simple.
buddy, you don't know math.

>>6660743
Instead, CC is like this:

>1st Grade
Your bigender parents and their otherfriends
Conservatism is terrorism
your fingers can count
>2nd Grade
basic othernames for genderothers
Why boys are bad
Basic accessorizing of your proudskin
your fingers can multiply, with the help of your bimates in class
>3rd Grade
The downfall of the Republic
hair plucking
a family can have as many parents as it wants

>>6660426
when basic memorization and computation is removed from mathematics, and it takes 5min to add three digit numbers... the system has flaws.

>>6660743
>>12th Grade
>Money and Banking, Finance
Yes, because that's the very pinnacle of mathematics.

>>6660743
>B-b-but the kids wont understand!!!! We have to teach them many different types of dumb tricks for solving multiplication tables and dumb down math even more so they're not taught basic algebra till they're in 12th grade!

You know what else would probably do these students some good? Getting actually competent teachers who actually know what the fuck they're talking about when it comes to math. In the US it's practically a requirement that teachers have a degree in "Education" rather than any other field of study. Aside from the fact that an Education degree is largely worthless (ask any teacher with an Education degree if they were actually prepared for their very first class with just their degree experience alone) these teachers aren't going to know jack from shit in pretty much any special topic because they're typically just teaching from a circumscribed lesson plan.

>>6660743
lololol

>>6660426
Because it's part of the smoke and mirrors that schools use to pretend they teach students but actually are not doing anything the majority of the time

>http://youtu.be/aaFAUeftTKs?t=5m2s
>4th graders who could score above the national average on the Math SAT are denied access to math above the 4th grade because "that would be a violation of social justice".

Schools are complete communist in function where all students are treated as equal to the dumbest denominator. Intelligent kids are completely ignored as the only incentives teachers have are getting slow kids' test scores up. The whole system is ass backwards.

>>6660760
Yeah, but since everyone can downvote teachers, and teachers can't fail students, that pretty much limits a teachers skillset to "successfully looking like a victim"

>>6660769
What I find amusing are the "gifted" programs for the "smart" students. They're really little more than classes for ego stroking.

>>6660775
Largely true except
>teachers can't fail students
They can. They just try not to because
>everyone can downvote teachers
Also probably how standardized tests function.

>>6660697
Sadly this:

>New York City school cuts popular gifted program over lack of diversity
>http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/30/nyc-school-cuts-popular-gifted-program-over-lack-d/
>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/education/in-one-school-students-are-divided-by-gifted-label-and-race.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

>>6660731
Interestingly the black nerds from my school were highly respected
I don't know what kind of shit hole you guys lived in to have racism isolate intelligence

>>6660779
Actually, you're wrong. If too many students fail, the school gets it's funding cut.

Schools even graduate students that have been in juvie for 3 years.

>>6660787
>If too many students fail, the school gets it's funding cut.
Thank "No Child Left Behind" for that bit.

>>6660784
It's a pretty widespread attitude among black kids in public schools across the country.

>>6660755
12th grade math are electives at that point.

Finance literacy is important and most people should be educated on it.

>>6660717
>White [trash] Americans think that only Asians and broken-brained autistics can understand math

lmftfy.

>>6660684
>>6660697
>>6660753
>>6660769
>>6660779
>>6660782
>>6660787
>>6660793
u guys ever see idiocracy... that shits happening man... we are the beginning of the end of intelectualism... its not going to stop until its completely broken...... holy shit mericans are being dumbed down so the jews can take over.... jk but really shit fucked up in our public scool system when u get fired for doing your job... stupid ppl should be segregated and everyone should be required to pass a competency test before procreating... just my opinion

Because it takes simple math concepts and makes them difficult and tedious

>>6661612
It shows alternative methods/visualizations

The problem lies in that they spend THREE YEARS on addition and subtraction, then ANOTHER THREE YEARS on multiplication and division, and then TWO-THREE years on Algebra. That's just inexcusable.

>>6661601
If you make enough money you can send your kids to private school and get a great Singapore style education.

>>6660743
>welcome to Asia, sit your fat American ass down and learn some fucking math
There's no way our society could handle that. Most people would drop out before ever reaching high school.

>>6661707
>Most people would drop out before ever reaching high school.

Lazy fag detected. I worked that hard out of boredom when I was a kid.

>>6660743
>>6660743
Nice core
Its a shame when they all burnout and start shitposting on 4chan after the 6th fucking grade. It will be great shitposting too since they all write like retards since no english classes.

>>6661718
>he doesn't have much faith in America
>must be lazy
Maybe /sci/ isn't the board for you.

It seems to me, after reviewing some of the material, that CC is trying to make the mental steps in calculation less intuitive and more explicit. The problem with this is that it drastically complicates the language and concepts. Furthermore, it's difficult for a kid to process correct vs incorrect calculations if they don't even have the answer right half the time.
To me, part of the value of the old addition and multiplication tables was that they firmly established the answer, leaving more mental headroom so to speak for understanding the process.
In other words, if I knew off the top of my head that 5*5 is 25 I was free to focus on understanding the more explicit process of getting there.
I don't know if this analogy will make sense, but I feel like CC is like trying to hit a moving target while standing on a moving platform (the explicit process and the answer).

>>6660750
:^)

>>6660426
Because it is being used as a vehicle for bullshit agenda pushing, authoritarian brainwashing, and data mining.

> teacher admits he helped common core to end white privilege
https://youtube.com/watch?v=LQ8Nr3_2724

http://thenewamerican.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenewamerican.com%2Fculture%2Feducation%2Fitem%2F15213-data-mining-students-through-common-core&utm_referrer=#2758

> The fact that Common Core Standards require children’s personal information to be provided to a database that can be expected to sell or share the data to unspecified companies is worrisome to many parents and educators.

> What they call the “four parallel streams of affective sensors” will be employed to effectively “measure” each child. The “facial expression camera,” for instance, “is a device that can be used to detect emotion.... The camera captures facial expressions, and software on the laptop extracts geometric properties on faces.” Other devices, such as the “posture analysis seat,” “pressure mouse,” and “wireless skin conductance sensor,” which looks like a wide, black bracelet strapped to a child’s wrist, are all designed to collect “physiological response data from a biofeedback apparatus that measures blood volume, pulse, and galvanic skin response to examine student frustration.”

Not to mention states were tricked into accepting it before they ever got to look at the standards. Race to the Top promised money if they adopted new standards a few years down the road. Common Core is those standards.

>>6660743
i like you

>>6661729
>he doesn't have much faith in America

COMPLETELY the opposite. I know that if -I- can do it, everyone else in America can too. I -do- believe.

I know we are bored. I know we have potential.

>>6660776
in my highschool it's always been those who actually tried. It was the same content but we said bigger words and got papaers in a different order so the other kids couldn't cheat off tryhards.

>>6660743
I'd redo this so that you've read all of the western canon by 5th grade, but I haven't read any of it.

>>6661747
>Government officials' commands must be obeyed by all
>AN individual's wants are less important than the nation's well-being

Holy fuck is this real life?

>>6661772
Obviously not. It's just propaganda, don't worry.

>>6661747
Go back to /pol/, you're scaring the children.

>>6661747
>newspeak isn't real, stop being such a tinfoiler ;^)

>>6661785
>>6661772
Well, it IS propaganda, but it's also real

>>6661760
>in my high school
come back in a few years when you've calmed down

>>6660441
>Math is simple.
Have you read Russell and Whitehead?

>>6661799
0/10 "The" is less general than "A" repeat the grade

>>6661804
well with that attitude

>>6661785
>obviously not, it's just propaganda

>>6661818
there is probably a universal constant that governs a force between two entities ("gravity"). there is infinite complexity in nature, therefore the language which we use ("math") is woefully inadequate.

>>6661856
get off your high horse and just have fun already

>>6661859
i have plenty of fun implementing the lambda calculus in whatever language i want to. brainfuck is the most fun. that still doesn't change the fact that mathematics isn't for everyone.

>>6660426
>Muh ad hominems

dumbed down bullshit

>>6661856
>infinite complexity
>anything

Spends too much time trying to make math more intuitive. A valiant effort yes but really, kids are just going to learn the "old method" from their parents and use that instead. America really needs to start on algebra sooner.

The biggest problem with education is that people doing the teaching aren't educated. Seriously, education majors are the bottom of the intellectual barrel, just check out any statistics on college majors.

Think back to all those times in grade school when you, a 10 year old ass, was correct and the teacher was wrong.

Now think back to college when you, a person with a high school education and "potential" spend all day thinking about problem, arriving at an incorrect answer, then ask your professor and he looks at it and solves it in 10 seconds.

We need it be the standard that educated (bachelors in a discipline) people teach children, not teachers whose discipline is education.

>>6661747

>dat audience reaction when the teacher mentions white male privilege

Maybe the country isn't doomed.

>>6661889
Irrational numbers have infinite complexity, neh?

>>6661899
>America really needs to start on algebra sooner

So much this. Every time I had maths assignments after 3rd grade it was the same fucking busy work. It wasn't until 8th grade that maths started to become interesting, and at that point I just kept thinking to myself I could've done this 3 or 4 years ago. Thought the same exact thing when I got to Calculus. Honestly I have no idea why my school didn't do tracks or what ever they are. It was everyone who was slightly above average got into the gifted program, and that was like half the fucking school. We learned the same exact stuff the other kids did too, like literally the exact same, the gifted students would always sell answers to the normal students, the classes were fucking identical.

>>6660441
Math is simple. Doing addition is a definition. However common core seeks to teach you when to do addition and why it works. People who criticize it, like OP said are cheerleaders and idiots. They didn't know shit their whole life, and they think a high school diploma means something.
If you teach a kid to just do something rather than leave it to them to understand it, then the current trends of academia will continue. This is an attempt to change that. Make degrees meaningful again. A high school diploma and downwards nowadays means you showed up to class

What's the point of adding this additional fluff into a standard math curriculum? If you want to add rigor and understanding then do it for real or don't do at all.
ie. Add some serious math fast, like axioms, theorems, proofs in the standard curriculum. This will give you the "why".

I'd rather the general population know how to do mechanical calculations then gain some half assed understanding. Learning to add in fun new ways won't help you learn calculus.

>>6662049
>Learning to add in fun new ways won't help you learn calculus.

CC teaches the grouping and handling of difficult numbers into known numbers to make adding and subtracting easier, much like how many integrals of symmetrical functions can be grouped and then multiplied to make calculations easier.

In fact, learning that numbers are not concrete objects that cannot be played with or manipulated is a very significant step towards understanding more advanced mathematics in general.

>>6661989
>Honestly I have no idea why my school didn't do tracks or what ever they are

Because a long long time ago the patron saint of education Jean Piaget who didn't believe in statistics, prior work, controlled variables, nor cause and effect declared that children's brains were physical incapable of learning and educators have since been using that as an excuse to not educate.

Half your school and the rest of the world are clearly outliers. Kids can't into abstract reasoning until they are college age therefore we shouldn't try.

>>6660721
>black
>people
Lolwhat? People can be only white. look it up in any school book. Did you mean these guys on the left side? They are not people yet. But they will be one day, I hope.

>>6661926
>We need it be the standard that educated (bachelors in a discipline) people teach children, not teachers whose discipline is education.

We already do. All that happens is that BS in * creates a new track for educators and removes all rigor.

>>6660621
>Pearson
Why aren't more people talking about this.

It's legislation that's only being put into place to make one company rich as fuck by forcing schools nationwide to use their materials because they developed the curriculum.

The publishers are destroying America.

>>6661926
The problem is that teachers are judged by the number of children that don't fail, not the number that win the maths olympics or something. The most important thing for teachers to be able to do, therefore, is to keep discipline and stop the worst ones losing focus and falling behind, so as many as possible pass, whether they can engage you with university level material or even care about the subject at all is really a non-issue.

This is basically why they shove money into things like the troops to teachers program, and are more sceptical of giving mildly autistic maths graduates a free pass.

Ideally you'd be able to split children up so they were matched to an appropriate system as opposed to by where they live, but geography is probably against you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAJ0AE01Nqw

>>6662291
>>Ideally you'd be able to split children

But my
>Separate but NOT EQUAL!
>Gifted Program filled with only whites!

The reason why I hate it is because of the testing system they have. Anyone with a degree in education knows that assessment is much more than the shit they have in place. The teachers are forced to "teach the test" instead of teaching the material in depth, skipping through each topic in a frantic race to get through everything that's going to be on the end of semester exams.

I know that most of us here probably breezed through those tests, but it only worked out for us and left most of the other students behind. In an attempt to help the students left behind, teachers eat lunch in their classrooms or stay after school or come in early to try to help whoever asks for it.

It's shit. Fuck Common Core.

>mfw my country has a "Fuck it, leave these children behind" policy
>children left behind are educated to directly join the workforce
>the rest gets a proper education and the taxes of the other children pay for it
>mfw this works surprisingly well

>>6662621
>Gifted Program filled with only whites
So what?

>>6660743
Okay, until 12th grade.
Why wouldn't Money and Banking/Finance be an elective? It's not essential, nor fundamental to anything else. It's also higher on the list than it should be - intro to PDEs is going to be far harder than intro finance.

>>6660441

I used to agree with this but nobody who has had experience actually teaching kids math would really agree with you.

Math is hard. It's the icing on the education cake. Our education is lacking in every category, there's not some kind of special infrastructural fault with mathematics in particular.

The bottom line (as it so often is in this society) is money. More money means less students per teacher and more individualized attention. More money means more special needs / learning disability specialists. More money means newer, cleaner, healthier facilities that are easier to get to and safer to be in. More money means better qualified teachers. More money means more books, calculators, rulers and computers.

Why does American math education suck? Because American education in general sucks. Why does American education in general suck? Because Americans don't consider education of poor and working people a priority.

>>6662650
The whole education system is fucked beyond recognition.

But muh monies

Meanwhile on youtube... you can actually learn all this shit for free

>>6662651

Teaching some motivated suburbanites via online learning is one thing.

Teaching an entire nation that includes the urban and rural skeletons of shifting labor and energy markets is another.

Little Johnny can learn algebra on YouTube, but Jamal and Billy Bob need more because they have less.

Technology can definitely help solve this collection of problems, but it's no magic bullet.

>>6662641
>>Gifted Program filled with only whites
>So what?

see

>>6660782
>Sadly this:
>
>>New York City school cuts popular gifted program over lack of diversity
>>http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/30/nyc-school-cuts-popular-gifted-program-over-lack-d/
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/education/in-one-school-students-are-divided-by-gifted-label-and-race.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Even if you lived in a populous area with enough strong students to form an accelerated school, those from the ghetto for obvious ~<span class="math">cultural[/spoiler]~ reasons won't get in and it will be seen as a move to reform superior white schools by blacks. People will protest and the school/program will be shut down. Happened before, will happen again. Same reason we don't have public support for private schools.

>>6662717
"Whites are smarter, so let's make them as stupid as we are". It's a pure black racism.

>>6662650
>More money means less students per teacher and more individualized attention
>More money means better qualified teachers

HAHAHAHA, no. More money means more money for the football coach.

>More money means more special needs / learning disability specialists

Fuck no. That's the current biggest scam in education.

>More money means more books, calculators, rulers and computers

More money means the prices of the same books, calculators, rulers increase. Have you seen the recent prices on TI calculators?

>>6662650
>Money
>>6662669
>Teaching an entire nation that includes the urban and rural skeletons
>but Jamal and Billy Bob need more because they have less.
>Because Americans don't consider education of poor and working people a priority

No.

Even Poland can out preform the US in education while spending half as much per pupil. The problem is academic corruption.

>>6662650
>Money
>>6662669
>Teaching an entire nation that includes the urban and rural skeletons
>but Jamal and Billy Bob need more because they have less.
>Because Americans don't consider education of poor and working people a priority

No.

Even Poland can out perform the US in education while spending half as much per pupil. The problem is academic corruption, not lack of resources.

>>6660426
because its just Pearsons getting a complete strangle hold on all education in the US. also expands govs power to intevene in peoples personal lives through their children.

>>6660743
>high school graduates will have the same education as current double math/comp sci majors

So, americans, explain me this, how the fuck it is possible that common core became reality? I mean, whys did anyone think it was a good idea ?

>>6660426
Because it was created to end "white privilege"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ8Nr3_2724

>>6662840

Because it is a good idea.

>>6662831
>also expands govs power to intevene in peoples personal lives through their children.

Yes, kids learning math better is totally part of a sinister plot to suppress revolution.

>>6660723
Anybody ever think of parents instead of the race? I know some dumbass Asians that get 100+ grades in math, but they're dumb as shit. But their parents are hardline asians education nazi's alla bout honor and respectability, etc. Black people don't care about their children
White people it's pretty half and half
Spicks think god will lead them to the way of life

>>6662847
Explain further

>>6661707
lol good, they can go pick up trash and flip my burgers for a living

>>6660743

>>6662852

It teaches math in an intuitive and consistent way. Why would that not be a good idea?

The reason everything sucks up to HS education is because the nation does not pride itself in it's scientific culture and high arts.
It's all about politics and the history of their politics and then maybe some post-modern classics.
While everywhere else you aren't even considered for university if you haven't done pretty much all the basic topics at an undergrad level.

And now everyone is shoving around blame and meaningless statistics etc.
What the USA needs is its own form of pride for basic education. Get away from the "average Joe" bullshit and honestly tell people that being smarter actually does mean being better.
And admit that sometimes children are left behind and have to do things to their capabilities.

Before the US can even think about any big structural social interventions in their educational system, they have to get a working one going. One where people know what the fuck they are going to do when they get their diploma. A diploma that actually proves capability without having to have half a dozen of standardized tests and another educational steppingstone until someone is even considered to do whatever he wants to do.

>>6662860
>intuitive and consistent way

So it is making it unnecessarily harder? Why would that be a good idea?

>>6662865
>So it is making it unnecessarily harder?

No, it's not.

>>6662850
Going to get a hair cut. Kumon next door. Two dozen kids waiting. 2/3rd indian the rest other Asian.

The key to success in school is parents who give a shit.

>>6662865

Apparently you needed common core for english too.

>>6662850
Childhood intelligence, at least measured by IQ, is pretty malleable, which adult IQ is 80-85 genetic.
Poor ghetto kids, even if they have great mental genetics, are fucked if they've been raised by a negligent or otherwise busy single mom until they're 5 years old.
Good parents are the #1 most important factor in childhood educational success, and no amount of schooling later in life will erase a deficit thereof.

Protips: More Teacher Buxx not The Solution, public-sector pre-school/day-care won't do shit either.

>>6662860
We've already been doing that. The CC isn't that different to what was being done 20 years ago...

>>6662849
more about the fact the some schools require you to buy laptops and install software in them that allow the school to remotely view/control the laptop at any time. but its totally retarded way of teaching math is cool too

>>6662889
>Childhood intelligence, at least measured by IQ, is pretty malleable, which adult IQ is 80-85 genetic.

Care to show your evidence or explain that 80% of the difference between IQ scores of adults is 'due to' genetics?

>>6662938
Bouchard, TJ (2004). "Genetic influence on human psychological traits - A survey". Current Directions in Psychological Science 13 (4): 148–151.
http://cdp.sagepub.com/content/13/4/148
Yielded estimate of 0.85 for 18+yo.

Older APA studies show ~0.5 for young children and ~0.75 for adolescents.

>>6662938
>>6662977
Also, every twin study, etc., from the last 50 years shows 0.7-0.9 heritability.
Strictly speaking, this does not strictly preclude epigenetic factors, but there are no strongly hypothesized alternatives at present.

>>6662977
>Psychological Science

>>>/x/ is that way

>>6662991
Can't tell if willfully ignorant, arrogant, or just trolling.

>>6660743
Everything from 7th grade up looks like you just made a list of required classes among several engineering majors.

Try harder next time.

>>6660426
for real though
I think parents who could afford tutors and used to just teach their kids to memorize formulas want their easy, dull maths and writing back.

That being said, the transition was handled pretty poorly by some states.

>>6660754
This. The workload is going to take long enough when they eventually get to precalc. When they cannot do simple math without ridiculous number lines or a calculator, it may take them ages just to solve for 0.

>>6663027
You forget that /sci/ hates being reminded that math has actual practical, numeric uses.
The amount of contempt for programmers and engineers here is staggering.
> inb4 cad/mathematica-monkey

>>6663011
>Everything from 7th grade up looks like you just made a list of required classes among several engineering majors.

Exactly. Everything you need to know to <span class="math">start[/spoiler] to understand how the world around you works. You know, exactly what you're supposed to get out of general education.

>>6660754
>>6663027
>>6663033

Are these trolls or do people on /sci/ really don't understand that doing arithmetic with boxes/lines is just a one week~month phase ONLY with assignments only to check that they understand the visualization. They're not expected to keep doing it afterwards and will use the usual textbook method when they are done.

It's just like learning to do determinants with co-factors with n! steps before learning LU decomposition to do it with n^3 or solving ODEs without Laplace transforms...

>>6663051
Are you implying people would deliberately cherry pick certain aspects of something, then use these aspects to fabricate a complete image which bears no resemblance to reality, and then rail against this fake image in order to substantiate their ultimately baseless claims?

The nerve of you, anon. The unmitigated nerve.

>>6662991
7/10 keked

>>6663062
ha!

>>6663051
i have a half sister that had homework assignments in first grades with that stupid line shit all year. stupidest shit i've ever seen. only good thing about it is that my step mom did not understand how it works. which was fucking hilarious. i understand how it fucking works, it takes 2 seconds to see what the kid is doing. but this dumb broad was actually getting answers wrong. to fucking first grade shit. hilarious. but yea, common core has some weird ways to teach kids shit

>>6660755
I dont think thats the point of anon adding that to the list
Having a solid understanding of how to manage money would be better closer to the time you graduate and strike out on your own, rather than, say 4th or 5th grade.

I believe it's because people want everyone even their friends who may not be as advanced to pass. The common core does a great job creating a much easier job for schools. It makes it easier for the school to work but makes the student work harder. Some say the student needs to work harder and that proves it, others say that the schools job is to provide help no matter what. But that makes it so the student is basically "spoon-fed" so it makes it harder to adapt later on in life. And anyone who says otherwise is just misinformed most likely.

Idiocracy is happening. I hope u all see... this is where our future lies... my children are doomed *tear

>>6663051
>It's just like learning to do determinants with co-factors
Seriously? That's the definition of the determinant for nxn matrices, it's nothing like that.

>>6663524
And the definition of base ten addition is you count the ones, if there's ten set that aside, then count the groups of ten and if there are ten of those yadda yadda yadda AKA math with blocks, lines of 10 blocks, squares of blocks, cubes...
They're just making that visually explicate as kids are still partial to base 1 i.e. seeing n as n things and not the log n digit number.

>>6660721

>>6663033

>The amount of contempt for programmers and engineers here is staggering.

No shit.

>>6663577
They get what they deserve. If they want respect they need to earn it. No one deserves respect on the internet. The fact that they think they deserve respect makes them look like faggots. Where do you think the "engineers are gay" jokes come from?

What's the fucking point? arithmetic should be done in your head by 4 years of age including ordinates and surfs.

>>6663577
lol that note
>extensive study in differential equations and other higher math applications
>higher math
>applications
pick one

>>6663521
Your children are only doomed if you fail at being a parent.

>>6663628
number theory in programming security

>>6660445
Spending nearly an hour explaining how to count does not instill courage in a young child's mind.

>>6662650
Math is hard because we have people that are not suited to doing it in our public school system. What you want to do is try and approve their abilities, of this we can agree. However, I cannot agree that the best way to do this is with Common Core, which as I see it, does a lot to make it more standardized, unintuitive, and complex in the mind of a student that fails to grasp math to begin with. From a Mathematician's stand point, its probably ideal. However, public school is not for mathematicians. Its to educated literally the bottom of the intellectual barrel.

>less objectivity in testing which leads to more educator subjectivity and possible bias
>more standardization of a system that has already made the high school diploma toilet paper
>drafted by academics that honestly don't understand just how unintelligent many students are in the public education system, and expecting them be grasp an even more complex learning scheme
>the political agendas that creep up every now and again in the drafters of the system (they don't call education the leftist field for nothing)

Yeah, there is plenty to criticism. And saying test scores are higher doesn't exactly bring me confidence when half the test becomes whether or not the teacher thinks the student tried hard enough.

>>6664023
That's why they spend all of kindergarten doing nothing other than counting

>>6663524
>definition of the determinant
>this is what the average /sci/ poster thinks a determinant is

>>6664027
>less objective assessment
>increased standardization

I'm having trouble reconciling your points here

>>6664024
>Math is hard

Math is easy. Saying math is hard is exactly like saying reading is hard. They only reason people are bad at it is we let them believe they can be bad at it. If someone can't read "cat" and struggles for a while they are view as a driveling retard. If someone can't answer 5682+7940✕2 with a pen and paper they are viewed as normal.

>>6660760
It depends on the school an education major goes to, ones with professional programs drop education majors in schools for 4 semesters before graduation.

I agree though, I'm dual majoring (chemistry)and minoring (Math+Physics) in my subjects and majoring education so I can try to at least hand wave my students less.

I'm sure i'll want to kill myself like every first year teacher, but most of my education courses are just snooze fests. We will be assigned reading an essay or part of a novel and 3/4 of the class will clearly not have read it at all.

I can actively see why some educators get through college without knowing a damn thing.

>>6664782
We just don't have all that much to teach educators. The research problem in the school setting is really preventing meaningful progress, and even if the red tape wasn't there, the money sure as fuck isn't.

>>6664788
True, all you can do is get experience teaching.

My school has a pretty high GPA requirement, but anyone who is a pure education major should kill themselves if they get less than a 3.0.

>>6664799
I think in most grad settings, anything below a 3.7 is cause for concern. At my school a 3.0 would be straight failing.

>>6663524
you know that there's like 3 different definitions to introduce determinants?
we had it defined as the one alternating normed multilinearform on the nxn matrices.
boy was i confused back than

>>6664023
>Implying it took any less time before

Personly I like the way there's a method to everything. Before it was a case of "throw counting at the children and hope some of the shit sticks."

It was very much sink or swim. This is good for the kids who are good at maths, but really hard for the kids who aren't. The good students and people who are good at math think it's stupid and slow and pointless. But it's not there to help you. You don't need help.

As someone who taught, I think people on /sci/ forget just how shit at math some children are. That's why the common core is good. There's a proper method to EVERYTHING. So with enough work, anyone can grasp it no matter their ability.

>>6660743
This would basically mean that you want to force people to become engineers, there's no way the curriculum could contain any other subjects but mathematics and engineering courses. I agree with the idea, but I would explicitly create "engineering school" and then other schools, like art school or whatever. I don't agree with the idea that we should have a general all-encompassing education that is shallow and that we forget as soon as we walk out from high school. In short, It's a good idea, but it should be labeled as what it is.

>>6665031
Why would children who are bad at math do better with common core when its methods are harder than the proper methods?

>>6665101

It's methods are NOT harder than the "proper" methods, they are just different from what you are used to. The whole point is to make math more intuitive, which should make everyone do better.

>>6664809
in grad settings? I'm talking about undergrad.

>>6665089
>there's no way the curriculum could contain any other subjects but mathematics and engineering courses

Of course it can.

>>6663033
> /sci/ hates being reminded math has actual practical numeric uses.

wait, so I can't have -24i pancakes? I wish they were real....

>>6667451
They are real, just rotated 90° clockwise

>>6662647
(not the guy ) i think it's really important to understand the economy , everyone should get out of highschool knowing at least the basics of it

it would also reduce the classical 'muh evil corporations , muh richs do nothign with their money , gibe money plox " etc rebellion against the system

>>6662651
Yeah, I sort of gave up on public school.... taught myself biology, calculus, dot products, chemistry. The best day of school I ever had was my in school suspension where I read a Neuroscience text book and did problems out of the back.

General response throughout my school career: "just because you're 99th percentile doesn't mean you don't have to do the same work as everyone else." Taught myself calc in eighth grade, after 3 years of algebra in middle school, never looked back.

I try to read at least 2 scientific papers a day.

>>6667491
Knowing more about the economy is all the more reason to hate it.

General Statement: You forgot to include debate in the schedule. Statistically speaking debate students get some of the best grades of all student. being able to compose a case and argue give you a better understand of persuasive speaking than Speech or English Composition... granted once they get into college they immediately become chain smokers.

Democratic Boarding Education shows real promise when it comes to the success of students. I think multiple schools should just have multiple "sub-schools" where students education is focused on their favorite subject.

Still provide the general education, but the people like us (or at least me) have had an above average interest in science would be able to focus on it.

>>6667706
I've noticed the college debate community really doesn't have many smokers anymore. I rarely see anyone smoking between rounds when I go out for my cigarette.

>>6667706
>debate

Hell no. All debate teaches is how to become the propaganda officers for the future Hilters/Stalins/Maos/Bushes where beautiful sounding sophistry are given priority over facts and reason. Your kind, without any doubt or hyperbole, are the source and cause of all the wars in the world and political evil.

>>6667724
>beatiful sounding sophistry are given priority over facts and reason
Debate is really fucked up in terms of what kind of epistemology it has, but it is definitely not what you're thinking of. Here's the finals debate from the most competitive tournament of the year. Starts around 35 minutes in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIC2kG3kZMQ

>>6666666

>>6667764
>>6666666
goddamn

>>6663477
You sound underage.

>>6667775
That should be obvious from his post

>>6660743
Now, the only problem with this is that you know damn well the kids aren't actually going to learn this shit.
They're going to stuff it into their heads and cram it in for the semester or two they need to know it, and forget all about it next year.
It will be especially prevalent around your middle school.
The later grade classes might end up slacking because most of the class needs to spend a couple of months just on reviewing everything they already learned.

>>6665395
When you said "pure education" I just assumed. Sorry!

>>6667724
I have a feeling you haven't actually debated all that much if you think that. I debated for 7 years and the focus is on avoiding and noticing a persuasive fallacy, and also properly structuring arguments so they can be understood. You have to take good notes of the other teams speech's, and then find something to argue against each and every one. Once you aren't a novice you are expected to tell and persuade the judges that they should decide the winner based on X criterion, and possibly specify what lense one should focus on like the environment or the economy.

There are plenty of coaches that want their debaters to just make every complicated argument they can every round, but the focus is the composition and delivery of persuasive arguments. It also gives you infinite public speaking swag skillz

>>6660743
I agree except for all the engineering-specific stuff. High school should make you a badass at general math. College should be where you go for a specific path.

>>6665117

I think there are no shortcuts for making math intuitive. You go from basics, and build up on that. Just make sure you have a strong base before building on. It's just that not enough children are motivated to do well from a young age, and by the time they are grown up, they're lagging behind. Yeah no shit many thought precalc was hard/unintuitive when they barely scraped by in 4th grade algebra (in my high school, the majority didn't even make it to precalc. If you were taking calculus on senior year, you were elite. Only 2 or 3 made it as far as prob stat and differential equations).

The earlier they address their weaknesses, the less behind they'll fall. And this responsibility falls on the parents because, let's face it, not all children are easily motivated by school.

>>6668342
>you know damn well the kids aren't actually going to learn this shit.
>They're going to stuff it into their heads and cram it in for the semester or two they need to know it, and forget all about it next year.
>It will be especially prevalent around your middle school.
>The later grade classes might end up slacking because most of the class needs to spend a couple of months just on reviewing everything they already learned.

You just described schools <span class="math">exactly[/spoiler] as they are <span class="math">\underline{right ~ now}[/spoiler]. Everyone shouldn't be expected to pass and there should be idiots dropping out if the degree is to mean anything at all. They either have to settle for a middle school degree or shape up.

Lowering the bar for evermore lazier students is how we got into this educational mess in the first place.

>>6668687
I have a feeling you haven't actually debated all that much if you think that. Or, at least, you didn't do the only truly competitive form of debate (policy). The focus is not on the composition and delivery of persuasive arguments, it's on the interactions between different flows and having hyper-specific answers to anything that the other team may read.

>>6660426
common core is completely broken and retarded.

>>6660743
Thats some pretty shitty programme. Von Neumann learned Real Analysis with 11.

But I sincerly wish there existed a school for highly gifted children, where they learn buttloads of Maths. I for one would have loved it as a kid, I had a huge talent for maths (I literally derived everything up to 8th grade myself). Now I'm studying Maths, and I only wish I had an opportunity to do this sooner.

>>6660441
>Math is simple
[spoiler] Not really [spoiler]

>>6669310
First four years were in shitty policy debate, did 3 years of parli debate. No written evidence allowed, after the resolution for the round is announced there is 10-15 minutes prep time before 1AC.

Policy was about having evidence cards that could relate to anything and knowing how to present topicality, counterplans, and kritiks.

In Parli you have to get used to being able to run those arguments out of nowhere. They might say or do something you can run a kritik against, or maybe their solvency or harms would just be better fixed some other way.

Either way all these things just give practice at public speaking, research, and current events. Sure high school debate only covers one subject a year, but that's a subject most of those high school students would have no exposure to.

>>6670391
Why though?

>>6660784
This might give you a good idea of what some of the other posters are talking about in regards to intelligent black kids not getting respect from their fellow blacks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtMWvJiFR9E

>>6671796
I've also debated parli. I agree with you fully in everything you wrote, except for preferring parli over policy.

Though I'm awful at spreading, I think policy teaches better thinking skills. Having to be able to spin some connection between a new aff and your generic files on the fly is tough. Having to listen to 350-400 WPM and understand what's being said while making your own speech is really fucking tough. However, without decent coaching, policy quickly desolves into a shitfest of kids who don't know what they're doing. That's why it blows so much in high school unless you go to one of very few high schools with a decent coach. However, the college circuit is way better.

>>6660750
it is simply on highschool level
even on engineer level

git gud :^)

>>6672021
I actively ran K's against spewing. The reason I think parli is better is you have to understand each kind of argument you might be making up on the fly.

Agreed on the high school shit fest though, my coach never was involved with debate until the year I started. Most coaches don't even make each team create it's own aff. I actually judge policy once or twice a year still. Technically I still have 4 years I could do policy for college, but I just don't have the time anymore.

I don't think I could teach myself to flow full spew anymore.

Either way I still think it should be required for high school. Debaters make better grades because they have to think in ways most other high school students don't have to.

Also debate-/sci/ brofist. Every damn debater is an economics or polsci major I swear.

>>6671839
>Neil deGrasse Tyson

Get the fuck out and don't come back

>>6671817

>be me, be 17, be in high school
>do reach out program with urban youth
>program is to help them do science project, 1 hour after school every day
>get 2 black kids, one hispanic kid ~10y
>kids aren't impressive, specifically Jaime
>be told he is developmentally disabled
>kids decide they want to do project on owls
>specifically the regurgitation thing (owl pellets)
>not entirely a fan of the project, but I'm here to help, not to tell them what to do
>be 2 months later, 1/2way through program
>other groups have epic posters starting and real projects, with controls and experiments
>we have a very sad looking flat clay owl
>mfw I think i fucked up
>fret for 2 months while other projects look better and better than ours
>don't give up on kids, keep talking with them about pH, keratins, bones, digestion, etc, tell them to do self research at home too
>be day of science fair, can't be there because of varsity wrestling tourney
>spend whole day thinking I completely fucked the kids
>get 4th place out of like 30 in my weight class, (171 if anyone cares)
>don't care, run off of podium to call teacher running program to find out how kids did

>>6672254

>mfw my kids' shitty no experiment project got 2nd place
>mfw all the other "tutors" did the project for the kids
>mfw other kids can't explain their project when "tutors" have to leave as part of science fair
>mfw kids gave textbook level explanation of Owl digestion, in front of their shitty poster I made them do themselves
>mfw kids explained the different types hydrolysis to flabbergasted judges
>mfw actual quote from Jaime, the "developmentally disabled" child: "Hair is made of keratins which have a very ordered structure ... Although the pH is really low and the enzymes of the stomach are able to digest the rest of the mouse, it is insufficient for the digestion of hair and bones and the pellet must be regurgitated by the owl"
>cried in front of everyone, didn't give a fuck
>heard Jaime wants to go to college from the teacher the other day

If we are going to give kids the opportunity to succeed, we have the give them the opportunity to fail.
After re-reviewing Common Core, I'm not really sure if it's bad.
But this "no child left behind" bs has to stop.
I think more people should fail out of highschool.

>>6671817
I know that it's impossible but I've always wanted to see this copypasta verified somehow. I basically agree with its message but it also feels like crack - specifically designed to feel good to read for someone of a certain mindset.

>>6660441
>Math is simple. It should be taught simply.

>>6672254
>>6672258
anon, you made my day

>>6671817
/pol/ out of 10.
As dull and slow as the classes were in my mostly black middle school, the students were never so moronic as that caricature of black youth. They actually had dreams of their own, they wanted to eventually make something of themselves.

>>6672258
I wish I could see that happen for myself.

>>6671817
For some reason, nearly 98% of all niggers in the world live in USA, and the rest are in South America or Africa.

>>6662640
>tfw my country's system is almost exactly the same
>tfw it doesn't work at all and it's almost as bad as in america

>>6672427
What country?

>>6660441
>Math is simple

Holy fuck who let 14 year old kids get on here.

Math is simple? Yeah, try to master triple integrals or understand complex kleinian groups. It's really been summer for /sci/ hasn't it.

>>6663477
i haves anecdotal evidence that I'm a fucking idiot. My sister's waxer's post-op trans mother has a son learning with common core and I don't know how to address...it.

>>6667724
>>6667715
Debate is dead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmO-ziHU_D8

>>6660621

DING DING DING we have a winrar

>>6662291

I was going to type something like this but turns out I don't have to. Public school teachers no longer have time for anything but desperately trying to bring up the worst students, who are generally the ones who come from backgrounds where education isn't supported/highly regarded. Spending the majority of their time trying to teach their most unwilling students the most basic information, and then being blamed when they fail: Any wonder why many smart people avoid the field?

>>6662233
sorta kind like cengage at universities?

>>6667745
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIC2kG3kZMQ

>speed talking

>>6673087

Remember that debate is a sport, and has gone through a sort of an Ender's Game style metamorphosis: While the original format was a "simulation" of an actual argument, the modern form is based around playing to the victory conditions, with predictably odd results.

>>6673087
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmO-ziHU_D8
She really isn't talking that fast, in parli i'd just counter everything she said and sit down in 3 minutes.

Apparently CX s dying faster than parli.

>>6673176
<span class="math">\textup{cengage}^\left [ \textbf{\textit{citation~needed}} \right ][/spoiler]

>>6673176
<span class="math">cengage^\left [ \textbf{\textit{citation~needed}} \right ][/spoiler]

Hi friends

I'm teaching sixth grade math right now. Ask me anything.

Just some general thoughts about common core:
I actually really like it. I get a lot of push back from parents saying "Herp derp not how I learned it." But the kids don't mind the seemingly "extra" steps they have to do. The new things we are teaching, that I really like, is that they are solving the problem and then PROVING their answer is right. Usually with a picture. This is important not just for life, but for math in general. Too often students are taught steps and procedures without the real knowledge of what's going on. The new common core allows students to prove and talk about what is happening when we multiply or divide fractions (actually pretty cool).

Anyway, my two cents.

>>6672226
If you're good at policy, you definitely have to have an intricate understanding of each argument you make on the fly. Debaters who just read blocks are bad debaters; good debaters have to make careful articulations on the line by line that vary from debate to debate.

I also think that you are conflating spreading with spewing. There are lots of people who talk way too fast for clarity, then others that can read a 400 WPM and still be crystal clear. The former is spewing, the latter is spreading.

I also quit policy in college after my sophomore year, because ain't nobody got time to cut 40-50 cards a week and take 15 hours of 400 level math classes.

All that said, brofist anyways. I lived with debaters for most of my undergrad career, and they were all polysci and communications majors. It sucked never having people around to have intelligent conversations about math and physics with (though intelligent conversation about radical leftist politics is fun too).

>>6673087
What point are you making? I saw their finals at the NDT, and they truly deserved to win. Two of the best debaters in the country. If you're complaining about two black womyn winning the NDT, fuck off. If you're complaining about spreading (reading really fucking fast), how else can you fit in a shitton of detailed argument in a timed speech? The judges and other team can understand what they're saying and keep up, so what's the problem? It may not be good for developing oratory skills, but it is better for education in debate.

>>6673181
There are tons of studies (can't produce the citations now, on my phone) about how learning to listen to information spoken at such a rapid rate improves speed of information processing and memory. It also allows for more arguments and greater complexity in a format that is limited by time.

>>6673204
Agreed that she's not that fast by policy standards. But if you're only spending 3 minutes on her arguments, you'd probably lose the debate. Their argument is a lot less shallow than you think.

>>6673242
How do you handle teaching a kid that you can't stand? There's always that one kid that's annoying beyond belief. How do you deal?

>>6673312
Let me elaborate on this: policy debate is not designed to be understood by the layperson. It's not supposed to increase the understanding and knowledge of people outside the debate community, as the only people watching most debates are within the community already and can understand the jargon and speed. Complaining about the speed is like complaining that a research paper isn't easily understood by the average person. The average person is not policy debate's target audience. Policy debate has a specific structure, specific style, and features specific types of arguments. The style and types of arguments have grown and changed over time based on what is most strategic and what arguments teams think they should make.

A lot of the "race" teams, such as those in the YT video linked, make arguments based on the under-representation of people of color in the debate community, and link it to some of the structures and mechanisms of policy debate. The thing is, topicality isn't explicitly necessary in policy debate, as long as you win the argument as to why you shouldn't have to be topical in that instance. They back it up with academic literature (I can't remember who exactly the Towson team reads, but I know one of the most common authors for this type of argument is Wilderson, an Afro-pessimist philosopher). It isn't nonsense; it's highly detailed, complex, and raises critical reflection in the debate community. These teams aren't the only teams that win, it's just that they've had a lot of success recently. This year's NDT was won by a typical policy team (Georgetown AM, who also won the NDT in 2012 (or 2011? I can't remember). They read an aff about a specific policy action that is topical under the resolution, and they read traditional policy disads and counterplans on the neg. That's the great thing about policy debate: participants are exposed to all kinds of arguments from across the spectrum and the winner is decided by who debated better.

>>6660743
Wow, talk about pie in the sky

There is no doubt the education system is slower than it should be. I know through all of primary school I was relatively bored with mathematics and could have started more complex topics earlier. But to expect everyone to operate at these levels is a fantasy.

But this system is not only ridiculous, it is moronic. The level of study required to continue at these levels would require large amounts of time spent studying, to the detriment of every other subject, as well as normal child development. You may get a hard on when looking at the Shanghai school system, but most people sure do not.

And what about history, civics, English, Physical education, biology and nutrition? You and much of /sci/ may see these as unnecessary, but that simply shows how blind you are.

>>6660743
Continuing the path through college undergrad, an art major will be as qualified as current mathematicians.

>>6673303

Those gasps for air don't count as "talking fast" You could easily run a kritik about how spewing is damaging the education of debate.

People who don't think spewing is the best reason that CX debate should die are just morons. Debate is an activity to develop speaking skills, not the ability to make a noise and pretend like it was really all X words crammed together. Pronunciation is kind of a key skill for persuasive speaking. All I hear is her making irritating noises and then saying the word "turn" and other debate shit.

That's why I like Parlie more, at least in my circuit the judges and coaches were looking for good oratory skills and creative arguments.

>>6673312
Making BLURB noises and then saying the word turn doesn't make an argument a turn. Judges should be lay-people. If you can't persuade people who have no idea about debate you are debating wrong.

>>6673349
Blatantly non-topical rounds are the worst rounds, debaters like those are what is killing debate.

The problem is people are to busy with the debate circle jerk to realize that it IS supposed to be understandable by lay people. You are supposed to make all the logical arguments about if you won, how you won, and why you won. The debate round structures the arguments, the judging criterion, and point by point how each argument was won. If doing that can't persuade a lay person you are literally doing it wrong. The debate community thinking differently doesn't make them correct, it makes them obnoxious.

Like I said though, you can always just run a K over how damaging speed reading is to the education. Judges who think speed reading is good might as well take a bullet to the brain as far as I care.

Instead of trying to unify our schools under a single style of education, that.is designed to hurt the smart and lift the stupid. We should focus on uplifting the smart and leaving the stupid behind.

Not every one needs to go to college. The reason Asian countries have higher test scores is because you have to test into high school to begin with.

So what if Tyrone and Hector drop out at 14 to work on a farm or in a factory? All that does is lighten the load on teachers who should be culled if in a system that only allows smart, or capable kids to prosper, still have low test scores.

Every single class I've sat in has been based around paper work and memorization. Teachers don't teach any more, partly because the government is trying to unify an education system that makes it harder not to be a robot that hands out paper work, and also because unruly little shits who don't want to be in school, who only hold back the gifted are forced to remain there.

Junior and senior year of high school we had several colleges visit us, telling us how important college was, acting as if it was the only option. Not one trade school was mentioned. Stupid people are devalueing the worth of a college degree while harming our economy because we have no skilled tradespeople

>>6674008
You have no warrant for any of your arguments. You say debate should be topical, about increasing speaking skills, and be judged by laypeople. Why? I argue that parli debate satisfies all of those things already, so why should policy?

Spreading allows more arguments to be made in a shorter period of time. This allows the debate to be more dense, therefore harder to debate and more educational. Laypeople shouldn't have to understand policy debate; policy should focus on the education of those involved in the activity. As you said, parli already satisfies the the category of debate understandable by laypeople.

Policy debate is only called debate out of habit. It's a competitive activity, closer to a sport than an oratory exercise. If you don't like it, then keep doing parli.

As for topicality in-round, that may be your one legitimate point. However, if you want that to be the way it is, cut a sweet fucking framework file and win on it all the time.

As for the spreading K: have fun trying to win that without a super-leftist (Baudrillard/Ableism) spin on it. You really haven't said any reason it's bad except "muh oratory skills," and that isn't going to win you shit in round.

>>6673842
>But to expect everyone to operate at these levels is a fantasy.

But expecting everyone to operate at a given level and to have that level mean anything is a fantasy. That's how we got into this mess where it's far more important that the dumbest kids don't "get left behind" than whether the majority of them are learning much at all.

Duller kids need to go off onto a shoulder and let the majority pass them by just as motivated and quick students should be able to take a fast lane and excel. In the end, they get educated to the best of their abilities and their school degrees should be able to distinguish them apart.

>>6673842
>And what about history, civics, English, Physical education

Clearly that list was only the differences instead of a complete list of things to learn. That said, they should change how all 4 of those are taught.

History classed have devolved into meatless dates so and so happened without any analysis and needs to spend much more time on what happened, the precursors, the surrounding context, and repercussions that are usually quickly glossed over without any insight in grade school. That's a terrible disservice to all students and has led to our current society that doesn't have any historical knowledge.
Civics is practically nonexistent and overly idealized which is why there should to be a "college level" study of American Government and Political Science in high schools right before they are old enough to start voting and to be able to process the news and information on political events they're being exposed to.
English education isn't spending the time needed to make sure kids' reading and writing skills are improving. Besides class work, each student should have regular one on ones with a teacher to identify their weakness and get additional work targeted at it for them to improve.
Physical education is similar to English but easier to fix. Kids deficient in some physical aspect of their peers are usually just ignored and left on their own. They should instead be held after school and trained in improving themselves like running laps for stamina and lifting weights for body strength.

>>6673046
>triple integrals
That's simple though

>>6672254
>>6672258

Fuck yeah, proper fucking teaching.

>>6662717

>Got accepted into gifted youth program when I was 16
>200 students
>5 black people
>A single Indian girl (Not native american, Indian. Also, totally a cool girl.)
>Around 20 or so Asians
>The rest were white
>Mostly males

>Some bullshit organisation got mad
>Tried to rile people up
>Students were asked what they thought about the lack of diversity
>No fucks given, they were just happy to have non-retard friends for once
>Teachers were asked what they thought about it
>No fucks given, they were just happy to be teaching non-retards for once
>Bullshit organisation got even madder
>Parents from other schools were asked
>Shit was flung
>Organisation got an official answer from the leader of the program
>No fucks given

It made me a little happy inside.

>>6674350
I went to a gifted school in australia and there were fucktonnes of asians

>>6661989
Yeah, math was super fucking repetitive by the time 5th grade came around.

>>6660743
>5th graders writing proofs
I want to see this

>>6667494
>taught myself dot products
Fucking woop de do for you.

That line spilled the beans on the fact you're full of shit.

>>6663035
>Exactly. Everything you need to know to start to understand how the world around you works. You know, exactly what you're supposed to get out of general education.

You could not be more idealistic. Most people, as in 75% or more, could not complete those courses with any degree of satisfaction. "Understand the world around you" is a very flimsy term.

>>6672358
>As dull and slow as the classes were in my mostly black middle school, the students were never so moronic as that caricature of black youth. They actually had dreams of their own, they wanted to eventually make something of themselves.

Irrelevant in relation to their behavior. Everyone has dreams, but people are still little shits.

>>6674597
>You could not be more idealistic. Most people, as in 75% or more, could not complete those courses with any degree of satisfaction

That's what they said in the 19th and 20th centuries about educating the lay people for more than 4 years. We've tried and it worked resoundingly. There's no evidence that the majority can't learn that material other than we've never seriously tried.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vpqilhW9uI

>>6661707
Honestly, we gotta stop this one size fits all - add your own condiments, idea of schooling we have.

>>6674597
>Most people, as in 75% or more, could not complete those courses with any degree of satisfaction

Most people never tried. Most were illiterate until we tried mass education.

>>6674554
?
So you were doing dot products and matrix multiplication as a 13 yo?
Fuck off dude, I was interested in computer vision at the time.

>>6675137
>add your own condiments

What?