/sci/ - Science & Math

>>6530874
Okay.

Interesting point

>>6530874
>Facebook
Not even once.

>old copypasta on facebook
Not surprised.

no kidding this showed up in my facebook feed posted by some crybaby bio major

Woah! That's some seriously messed up shit nigga!

>>6530904
The same could be said about biology and how you eat food. Hell, this thing could be a series if you want that.

>ITT: OP rallies bored undergrads against facebook posts with thinly veiled bait

>>6530904

A recent Physics graduate put that on my feed LOL

>>6530932
That's not even remotely what's happening here.

>>6530874
Every time I see these threads on any board I always wonder why you shitheads even bother using Faceberg in the first place. Fuck off and fester in the hell you chose to participate in. Don't post it here and make those of us who made the reasonable decision to stay away from it suffer from the retarded opinions of shiteating morons posting about things they know nothing about on the internet.

>>6530874

>numbers that can't exist

says who? humans invented numbers and we'll do whatever the fuck we like with them. who the fuck are you to say that numbers even represent something real in the first place? this person contradicts themself by saying maths is a human construct, but then goes on to try and define what is and isn't allowed to be defined based on what their notion of "real" is. imaginary numbers are just as "real" as real numbers.

>>6530874
>Mathematics
>a human construct

toppest of lels

>>6530956
but that is exactly what it is

>>6530874
>This showed up in my facebook feed.

/sci/ has become a dumping ground for all these shitty trolls.

why can't people bring good shit to /sci/? this OP fаg sees a troll on his shitty FB and immediately decides to repost it here.

fuck you.

>>6530942

>no friends mathematician detected

I think the same thing about the English language.

We take English classes for over a decade and after all that, not one person can use it flawlessly.

The language is flawed. It's broken.

>>6530942
>suffer from the retarded opinions of shiteating morons posting about things they know nothing about on the internet.

", he posted on 4chan.

>>6530904
I'm in bio, and I'll never understand the hate from Bio students to Physics students.
But I have to admit, I chuckled.

>>6530874
I think someone on your friend list has failed his calculus exam

>>6531007
This is not a secret. Most English speakers can't handle English either.

>>6530874

sounds like someone can't into babby tier algebra

>>6531204

Bio students suck at mathematics

I wouldn't like myself if I was biologist

Shit money after you finish your biology undergraduate in comparison to being an analyst from a physics undergraduate.

It's perfectly valid not to want anything to do with imaginary numbers and consider them to be disgusting.

You can still be a perfectly good combinatorist or graph theorist or many other types of mathematician.

>>6530945
Oh yeah? Show me a cup of water with a volume of (-1)^0.5 litres .

It's perfectly valid and consistent to say that complex numbers don't exist and you want nothing to do with them.

After all, what makes you so dogmatic about the existence of complex numbers in particular? I don't see you insisting that octernions or n-nions be used in every situation.
Once you insist on saying that numbers can't come by themselves and that they have to come in pairs related by some arbitrary geometric interpretation then why not say that numbers have to come in 4s or 8s or groups of n?

Face facts, kid. Complex numbers don't have a leg to stand on. They're illogical, arbitrary and impure.

Furthermore, everything in physics you can accomplish with complex numbers you can also accomplish with trigonometric functions and power series. So blow it out your ass :)

>>6530874
Dealing with i was so fucking easy though.
I learned that shit in 9th grade.

>>6531306
I'd be impressed enough if you managed to show me a cup with -1 litres.
Yet we seem to have no problems using integers.

>>6531306

Oh yeah? Show me a cup of water with a volume of -1 liter.

It's perfectly valid and consistent to say that negative numbers don't exist and you want nothing to do with them.

After all, what makes you so dogmatic about the existence of negative numbers in particular? I don't see you insisting that negatives be used in every situation.
Once you insist on saying that numbers can't come by themselves and that they have to come in pairs related by some arbitrary magnitude interpretation then why not say that numbers have to come in 4s or 8s or groups of n?

Face facts, kid. Negative numbers don't have a leg to stand on. They're illogical, arbitrary and impure.

Furthermore, everything in physics you can accomplish with negative numbers you can also accomplish with subtraction. So blow it out your ass :)

Well good luck studying tensors, fluid mechanics and a lot of stuff without complex numbers

Imaginary numbers are simply the algebraic closure for the real numbers.
Nothing is more intuitive for an algebraic perspective.

>>6531327
-1 is simply a deficit, loser, or you can say that an object that is 1 meter away in some direction is -1 meters away in the opposite direction.

>>6531357
The reals are already closed. The reals and complex numbers are both fields you retard.

>>6531406
and a complex is simply a pair of numbers. You could simply say that a+bi meters is simply 1 meter at some angle.

>>6531408
They're not closed under taking roots of polynomials, which is (more or less) the definition of `algebraic closure'.

Considering that you know what a field is, though, I'm going to assume you're just shit-posting.

>>6531408
>>6531406

hey tripfag, I thought you were smart, but then you went and defended some dumbass facebook post

>>6531420
But then why would you insist that numbers have to come in pairs rather than triplets or quadruples or 8s?
The only thing that isn't arbitrary SHIT and has real significance is to say that a number is a number, I.e. The reals. Not that every number is actually some group of n numbers with some arbitrary geometric relation.
Besides your a+bi being a meter at some orientation is stupid. In that case what a comples angle be? "The angle between these two lines is 30 + 45i degrees"
Patently stupid.

>>6531406
negative numbers do not make sense for scalar magnitudes like mass. you can reconcile -1 meters with length because it makes sense to denote the same distance in opposing directions.

what this conversation should highlight is the fact that different number categories help people solve more math and make better science regardless of their intuitive validity. negative integers, divisions by zero, irrationals, imaginary, complex, hamiltonians are there because they serve us pragmatic purposes. By manipulating complex numbers people is able to return back to the reals and derive new results

>>6531444
>people is
damn. time to sleep.

leave fagbook while you can OP

>>6531424
>They're not closed under taking roots of polynomials, which is (more or less) the definition of `algebraic closure'.

They're only not closed under taking foots of polynomials if you presuppose that a polynomial of order n has n roots, which means you're begging the question by assuming the necessary existence of complex numbers .

Yet another drone who has been brainwashed by orthodoxy.

He probably believes that divergent series "equal" finite values.

>>6531440
You had no troubles giving me an arbitrary 180º angle for 1 and -1, with that I can say that a+bi is simply some theta between 0º and 360º.

>>6531458
Ok, pal . Come up with a consistent system for an imaginary angle that does not just boil back down to real numbers.

>>6531463
>C is isomorphic to R^2
I think you missed what complex numbers are.

>>6531473
Forgot a "not" there.

Well negative numbers are usually just representative and don't naturally appear in physics...they are a convention

>>6531306
Somebody didn't take complex analysis.
Try evaluating [pic related] without complex analysis, fucking troll.

>>6531337
rekt

>>6531306
People use them because they work well. Octonions work well in some specific situations and are used in those situations, so I don't know what you are whining about.

>>6531306
>>6531337
>>6531440

I sincerely hope you're just trolling.
Complex numbers are extremely useful in physics. Notably, quaternions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion

If you know math, you should know that there's more to math than counting. What matters are the patterns, the ratios, the differentials, the displacements between one formula to the next, whatever it may be.
You don't see a tree that has -1 branches or fruit, but the concept of negative numbers are extremely useful. Likewise, complex numbers are a branch of mathematics that have also proven their value in hyperdimensional and in homogenous space. Rotating vectors with an arbitrary number of dimensions an arbitrary axis is sort of a big deal. But I don't have to tell you this, because you're not really that stupid and just trolling.

>>6531530
Where are quaternions useful in physics?

>>6531306
A lot of people on this board are really, really dumb when it comes to abstractions of concepts being used as tools. Complex numbers can be thought of ordered pairs of numbers with a prescribed set of consistent rules for how these numbers combine and work together. That is all it is. It turns out that for some physical phenomena, we can tie the results to the framework in a way that makes strong and valid predictions. Complex numbers aren't really "quantities of stuff", but nobody ever said they were. The fact that you can't "count" complex numbers or "see" them isn't an objection that makes sense to anybody who has used them.

Who cares if you can accomplish the same things with trigonometric functions and power series? I'll do it using complex numbers and then convert the results to these terms while your sorry ass works through the alternative nightmare-land.

>>6531463
Exactly; it boils back down to real numbers. Take a DiffEQ course or just study fluid mechanics to see where the number i has physical applications.

>>6531533
Muh 3d kinematics
circuitry
pretty much every field in physics involves them if they interact with spacetime

Vector calculus/3d+ calc is very useful in fisics, hence muh nions are useful as well since they are essential to vec calc

>>6531542

Don't forget games. (Quaternion camera, anyone?)
Also electrical engineering / circuitry.

>>6531542
> Muh 3d kinematics
only in video games in my experience
> circuitry
?
> pretty much every field in physics involves them if they interact with spacetime
yeah :)
I always thought they'd be important there, but I haven't seen a physics textbook that covers it.
also energy-momentum.
>>6531544

> Quaternion camera
sounds like fun

>>6531550
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/circuitry

>>6531550
>> circuitry
>?
http://www.regentsprep.org/Regents/math/algtrig/ATO6/electricalresouce.htm
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number#Electromagnetism_and_electrical_engineering

Should provide enough info about their practicality.

>>6531552
those aren't quaternions....
well they are, but still

>>6531550
Simulations of physical systems, Dynamics simulations.

Pretty much anything complex maths with a 3x3 matrix relies on ijk.
If you are an ME you will be sucking Hamilton's dick dealing with these shitty constructs...also hamiltonians, determinants/wronskians? etc.


Also Diff E btw.
OH Fucking Diff E, if you ever have diff E you will see how important this shit is.
>muh 2nd order equations
>muh 2nd degree polynomials
You know what happens when you split m^2+1 right?
RLC circuits are a place this could show up in circuitry for one.

>>6531557
*imaginary numbers in that case
But they do also appear in DE equations, sorry.
If you are an ME you will be sucking Hamilton's dick dealing with these shitty constructs...also hamiltonians, determinants/wronskians? etc.

>>6531550
Also any 3 dimensional simulation/dynamic modelling.

>>6531557
How'd you know I was a ME?
Are you a ME Carbon?
I'm also a complete Hamilton shill.

I've never had to use quaternions in class as a ME.
Only used them to optimize my quadcopter.

I know about application of complex numbers guys. I'm curious where you keep seeing specifically quaterions.

>>6531566
Yep, ME.
Maybe it depends on prof but mechanics and dynamics often had some matrices, because my prof loooved rigor, not a bad thing.
After thermo, I'm pretty sure its the reason I won't be taking a combustion class...not that they are hard, I just hate making shitty little mistakes and matrices make it soo fucking easy.

>>6531530

I was just trying to show how asinine this nigga's rambling and coherent post was.

>>6531566
Actually looking at a statics book even it starts off using quarternions to find the component forces of a system

>>6531566
also good taste
>but
Carbon>iron
>2inert4me
Its like the bane of nuke reactions

>>6531583
Holy shit.
What statics book do you got?

>>6531587
Vector Mechanics for Engineers Statics and Dynamics McGrawHill

>>6531592
I've got the strictly statics book.
There's no quaternions.
Searched the one you were talking about still no mention of quaternions.

>>6530957
So you are telling me "one" doesn't exist? I grant you it's an abstract thought, but the instant is applied to anything it becomes a true descriptor of that object, just like Color, Mass, etc etc. If you disagree, then you must not believe anything has color right? Clearly it does though, so well you just got fucking owned good sir :3

>>6531602
Look for "i j k", try chapter 2, try the kinematics section, these are definitely translating to quarternions.
I just scrolled through and found a quarternion representation on page 989

>>6531619

>>6531621
lel

>>6531440
>The reals
You think all the reals "exist". hahaha.

>>6531661
>the reals
>reals
>real
Of course they exist, moron.

>>6530904
>Tfw duel major of bio and physics
>Tfw have to deal with bio majors complain about other fields and physics majors be arrogant because they are to lazy to get good at stuff.
I love science but God Damn it sucks being arrogant being with other arrogant pricks

i is planar rotation through a right angle counter clockwise

also why does anybody ever respond to Newt the tripfag

>>6531697
Point to one

>>6531578
>tfw i have my dynamics final in an hour
ya'll niggas need to learn how to take some cross products

>>6531288
> doing combinatorics without complex analysis
Bahahaha have fun with that

>>6531704
>>Tfw duel major
And you survived how long, now?

Math isn't exactly a human construct. It's a projection of human thought onto objective reality, hence it just werks.

>>6531773
Or number theory. All about integers, right? Nope.

>>6531270
>He's in it for the money

>>6531237
Its taught very poorly in America, Unless you take the better classes. Most are just put in classes through high school where you read a Shakespeare play and write a research paper. Thats supposed to help with your language.

Those are surds and it's a wonderful discovery;

>>6531868
I think it's generally true that mother languages are poorly taught. It's not seen so much about language as it is about culture.

>>6531762
I hope you did well

>>6531270
Meh. I'm a Bio major, and as long as I make enough to live on, I'll be fine. I'm in it because It's what I want to do. I'm pretty good with Chemistry, but I haven't taken a Physics class yet.

>>6531456
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraically_closed_field

>>6530874
are there no people left on sci that have been here for more than 1 month? the text on that pic is a fucking old copypasta from /sci/.

>>6532050
I got fucked because i didn't prepare well enough, but I had one of the highest grades going into it so I can still pull out an A-

>>6530925

No joking, I just had to write a four-page paper on bioenergetics, and I never realized how fucking complicated the metabolic pathway of glucose -> ATP was.

>>6531727
If you have one apple, you have one (1) which is a real number.

>>6532457
think he meant point to one real number

but point to a non-computable real, is the usual argument made at this point

>>6532469
I did what he asked. Stop being retarded.

>>6532473
There's no need to be upset.

>>6532477
Isn't it humiliating, making a post like that?

>>6532479
No, it's fine.

>>6532479

>>6532479
I'd think that having your autism flare up from just a few words would be more humiliating.

>>6532487
There is no need to be harsh bro, the anon is just upset.

>>6532348
But it's not.

>>6530904
This is on the back of my local physics society hoodies. Learn to laugh at yourself.

>>6532457
i'm not the anon you were responding to, but, you pointed to an apple, and not to one itself. You aren't supposed to point to something which can be described by the concept (ex. apple), nor are you supposed to point to a representation of the concept (the word "one", or perhaps "1"). Point to one, quit shitposting, and quit being a faggot.

rotate an apple 90 degrees

you have discovered the number i

>>6530940
>A recent Physics graduate
>Physics graduate
>graduate

>on 4chan
TOP LEL

*dropout
ftfy

>>6532850
He didn't say 4chan.

>>6532140
I pointed this out on the 4th post.
Albeit I could have worded it better.

>>6531440
>Not that every number is actually some group of n numbers with some arbitrary geometric relation
>arbitrary geometric relation
>arbitrary

>>6531478
>you
>understanding greentext

>>6532875
Who are you quoting?

>>6530874
Thanks, op, I was trying to avoid raging tonight.
You fucking bag of shit sadist, why would you post something so utterly autistic as facebook dumbasses ranting about "maff is sooo hurd :^((((" when you could have SPARED US THE EXPERIENCE? Why do you think i'm on this website? For shit? No, I like intelligent people and interesting ideas. Even >>>/b/ and >>>/s4s/ are better than facebook. This is terrible.

>>6531440
There are numbers in bigger groups. Like j=sqrti>>6531440

fuck off

>>/sci/?task=search&ghost=yes&search_text=%22I+stopped+caring+about+math+when+I+was+introduced+to+the+concept+of+imaginary+numbers%22


>>/sci/thread/5833700#p5833824
>>/sci/thread/5886591#p5886878
>>/sci/thread/5919112
>>/sci/thread/6377405#p6400641
>>/sci/thread/6403168
>>/sci/thread/6472833
>>/sci/thread/6504617

Actually, mathematics is formalist in nature. We could define a set of numbers that are both higher and lower than any other natural number at the same time, but we really only say that it "exists" if we find some use for it. More than anything, this is philosophy. Math is only a tool, deal with it.