/sci/ - Science & Math

Only making half a million. I am so sad. Le proles will never understand.

>>6481484
>Spend half of your life studying
>Never stop because the field evolves to quick
>People sue you for everything
>You get to live depressing stories
>All you see are sick and dying people
>The salary is decreasing
>Work on holidays
>People refuse treatment for stupid reasons and you gotta deal with it
This work would be better off by machines.

>>6481497
gov takes 50%, insurance companies a 1/4th, student loan a 1/5 and you're making shit pay for long hours.

>>6481497
studying for 8+ years

working sometimes 100 hour weeks. On call 24/7 365 any moment of your entire life you phone rings and you have no choice but to go to work.

There is a reason high salary exists.

>>6481496
fucking this.

>>6481506
>There is a reason high salary exists.
Yes. Because many years ago your professional association decided to discredit all other categories of medical providers and get a government monopoly requiring basically all healthcare to happen under the supervision of MDs, it threw its weight behind the shift from direct consumer billing to prepaid "insurance" and socialized medicine to ensure that your prices were not a consideration for patients seeking services, and more recently, they acted deliberately to prevent enough new doctors from being trained and approved to satisfy the demand for medical services, and have persistently opposed the implementation of effective automation such as expert systems which have been outperforming MDs at routine diagnostic tasks for decades.

You're individually miserable now because collectively you've been the most conniving, disgustingly greedy and selfish profiteering shits and dealers in human misery to walk this Earth.

If you want to be able to have a life that's both enjoyable and ethical, join the movement to deregulate medicine entirely and let progress happen, because healthcare is currently moving in the direction of deeper misery for both the patients and the providers.

>>6481592
>Because many years ago your professional association decided to discredit all other categories of medical providers and get a government monopoly requiring basically all healthcare to happen under the supervision of MDs

Ain't that the truth!

Seen this?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/how-a-secretive-panel-uses-data-that-distorts-doctors-pay/2013/07/20/ee134e3a-eda8-11e2-9008-61e94a7ea20d_print.html

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/07/how-the-ama-engages-in-government-sanctioned-price-fixing.html

>>6481592
>You're individually miserable now because collectively you've been the most conniving, disgustingly greedy and

This is like some edgy as fuck shit. You are not going to convince anyone sounding so whiny and impetuous. How old are you son?

>>6481592
>join the movement to deregulate medicine entirely and let progress happen
elaborate because I can't see how this could sound like a good idea to anyone

>>6481484
the obvious answer is to repeal obamacare and reduce government intervention in the healthcare industry

I'm in a biology graduate program alongside some MD/PHDs. They tell me that in your first couple years of interning (this is AFTER you've done four years of schooling), you're expected to be working 80 hours a week and then it's really common to work on the weekends to get a little extra spending money.

not all that surprising, though. that's the shit that happens when you make your entire profession centered around incurable overachievers with egos the size of the moon

>>6481592
>Because many years ago your professional association decided to discredit all other categories of medical providers
prove those other categories of medical providers can actually cure disease worth a damn, and we'll talk

>>6481629
We already allow rampant quackery. Nobody's interfering with homeopaths, chiropractors, naturopaths, traditional chinese medicine, faith healers, etc.

People mainly get arrested for practicing scientific medicine without a license. They get punished specifically for doing something that might work.

Meanwhile, for a doctor to be licensed is far from a guarantee of competence, and for a drug to be approved is far from a guarantee of safety or efficacy. The shortage of qualified physicians leads for very poor care for the vast majority of people, and an unreasonable hesitation to revoke the license of even the most obviously incompetent doctor, while the barrier to drug approval in practice leads to research fraud and dishonest marketing which leads to abuse and harm.

The current regulatory system is worse than no regulation at all.

What we need is the market freedom for someone to try building a McDonald's of medicine, where inexpensive staff are guided by sophisticated information technology systems. We need to try letting people order their own tests from labs, self-diagnose, and discuss which drugs they should try with pharmacists.

People aren't idiots. The majority is quite conservative about healthcare, and will, at least initially, insist on traditionally educated MDs, until something clearly better comes along.

There will be harm and there will be benefit. The experimentation will lead to progress. In the long run, healthcare will become far superior to what it would be if we continue our current regulatory system.

The free market produces better products and services than communism, even when those products and services are important and difficult.

>>6481497
This is one of the most wide-spread myths I've seen. VERY few doctors make even CLOSE to that much. The salaries has fallen drastically over the past many years

>>6481647
Prove that pharmacists can actually cure disease? Really?

There was a time when you could go to a pharamacist and talk your treatment options over with him, and he might do things like figure out which drugs you need and what your dose should be, and make custom pills that contain just what you should be taking, so you don't have to keep track of how many of what standard factory tablets you need each day.

Didn't it ever strike you as strange that the guy who counts your pills is a highly-educated member of a professional organization? Why wouldn't you just get your prescribed medication in a clearly and distinctly labelled factory-sealed bottle, so there's no way for the pill-counter to get it wrong?

You're looking at the shattered remnants of a profession which has been reduced to something absurd by the lobbying efforts of MDs.

>>6481694
Hospital pharmacists still do this to an extent, although it's one big game of contraindications and not killing patients. Retail pharmacists are strictly concerned with insurance and legality. They get paid bank to cover their asses all day and be neurotic assholes, not give a fuck about anyone.

>>6481665
>People mainly get arrested for practicing scientific medicine without a license
This is far from the truth and even then when said practice actually works and it's proven scientifically it's absorbed into modern medicine. There are too many shamans and idiots that claim to be healers and just scam people. This is the main reason medicine is so regulated.
>They get punished specifically for doing something that might work
Keyword: "might" work
>Let people self-diagnose
Yes because the average joe knows the working of the body, illness and drugs and are capable of knowing what they need and of course no one will abuse of said system to get easy recreational drugs.
>People aren't idiots
They are, with the most common example. "antibiotics for the flu"

Not even a medfag just a biochemfag that works doing the lab test for the hospital, also implying people know the meaning of the lab test and what they are for.

>>6481484

WOW!
This was on the front page of Reddit

>>6481712
>1

link?

>>6481665
The choice isn't between shitty regulation and no regulation, though it might be in the American political system.

If you deregulate medicine, you're letting frauds invade the system of medicine which actually works. You can no longer trust obscure experts, since ratings and even certificates can be faked. And since money is the sole concern of optimization, they will drop you like a stone if you fall through the cracks, or simply drop responsibility if you move into unprofitable territory.

To give an example: Most people can't pay to rent an MRI machine. In an unregulated market, they will simply not get an MRI, because it is in companies' best interests to remove such an unprofitable thing from their coverage, and the person didn't think of signing up for the specific MRI insurance.

> inb4 people dying when our current system would have saved them at a universally approved of cost is not a failure mode because making a mistake is enough justification for their death.

>work inhuman hours
>get crap pay in the beginning
>have to be around dying people all the time
Nah m8

>>6481484
>300 physicians commit suicide every year


Sorry but that's extremely low.

Doctors discourage others joining the profession because it'll reduce their income and job stability.

Medicine is still the best profession, along with petroleum engineering and a few others.

>>6481694
so basically want doctors to disappear so that pharmacists can do their job, without any of the tools the doctor has

Linguistics/neurosciencefag here, planning to go into speech pathology. It seriously depresses me that people in healthcare have to deal with shit like this.

>>6482386
>It seriously depresses me that people in healthcare have to deal with shit like this.

You ain't seen nothing yet! Once Obamacare takes its toll on the health system, it will be 10x worse.

>>6482358
>Sorry but that's extremely low.

Not considering how few physicians there really are. If you look at the overall population rates and rates of physician suicides, it's quite elevated.

>>6481496
>The salary is decreasing
WHO IS DECREASING THE SALARY OF THE PEOPLE THAT KEEP US ALIVE FOR FUCKSAKE?!
DO WE HAVE RETARDS RUNNING SOCIETY?
THIS MAKES ME MAD, THESE PEOPLE SPEND YEARS STUDYING IN A COLLEGE TO BECOME PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU WHEN YOU ARE SICK, SO THEY CAN TREAT YOU AND MAKE SURE YOU DON'T FUCKING KEEL OVER, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!!!!!!!

my dick

doctors are in it in for the money
and their union keeps membership small
to get good money
thus long hours, but good pay

90% of other america has to put up with
long hours, but shit pay

I fucking swear every doctor says
>I make good money, but I don't get enough time to spend it

suck a fucking cock
Half the fucking country couldn't afford the free time either

Doctors in the US are fucking scum. Worse than fucking lawyers.

>>6484329
Doctors in the US are the most overpaid profession compared to the world. This is why you get 10 year surgeons in Europe who are denied visas because that would create too much competition. And frankly, I don't think doctors from England, Canada, Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia, France, or Austria are that worse.

>>6481484
and here's the irony

90% of US doctors today could be accountants if they wanted to. Less bureaucracy, about the same amount of pay, and more free time.

Given that opportunity, they wouldn't switch their careers. That's hypocrisy right there.

>>6484329
>THIS MAKES ME MAD, THESE PEOPLE SPEND YEARS STUDYING IN A COLLEGE TO BECOME PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU WHEN YOU ARE SICK, SO THEY CAN TREAT YOU AND MAKE SURE YOU DON'T FUCKING KEEL OVER

You're really overestimating the abilities of the contemporary doctor. I've gone to at least two sessions in which the doctor literally googled my symptoms right in front of me and told me "that's probably what it is." Which is awesome, because they both ended up being misdiagnosis. The new doctors coming in are fucking garbage. If a doctor isn't older than 50, I won't bother to spend my money on an appointment.

>>6484329
Who in the fuck gets this emotional about a random unsourced 4chan post?

I used to work in pharmaceutical research; anti cancer drugs specifically. I remember racking my brains trying to think of a system like that alluded to in saw, where the character mentions that in ancient china, doctors were only paid while the patient was healthy, and not when the patient was sick- that way you were paying for health. I figured it was possible to have a "health fund" sort of situation, where you paid each week to a company that hired doctors and pharmacists to keep you well, and you stopped paying when you felt sick. Don't think it would work in real life though. Pity, because it would probably solve how dissatisfied doctors are in the US too.

>>6484337
This.
>>6484342
And this.

>>6484346
Implying a doctor would trade in helping people and an exciting job for being some corporate money whore

Okay then

>>6484346
>about the same amount of pay
And here's the thing. Doctors are too greedy to give away a single penny even if it means more free time hours (although how much that really would be?..).

>>6484337

this basically. People who complain about this are subhuman monkeys who can't understand basic economics.

>>6481484
My buddy's sister has been a nurse for ten years. One of her patients was a homeless man that tried to commit suicide and shot himself in the roof of his mouth. I don't remember the details but he did destroy parts of his brain and obviously his head. And I don't know exactly how much damage he did to his cognitive processes, but according to her story, he was aware enough to not be a vegetable, but might as well have been. He sat in the hospital for however many weeks or months refusing to eat, shitting himself, refusing to talk to anyone. Because he'd given up hope and then failed at ending his life, and utterly ruined the rest of the life that he didn't even want. She saw this man every single day and came home somber and depressed the entire time.
I can honestly say that I doubt I would make it in medicine.

Is this a US thing? I don't think the local MDs have such long hours, odd hours yes but I never notice anyone who seems tired at the local hospital. I think they work in 8 hour shifts.

>ask psychiatrist about this
>he says it's true
>a lot of doctors are workaholics (owing to their 8 years of intense education) and neglect their personal lives (his example being that they all have wives fucking their poolboys)

>>6484495

Nursing is a shit profession. Long hours and shit pay. That's why nobody wants to be a nurse.

People who say that the only downside to being a doctor is the long hours or years of study are dead wrong.
Yesterday I had to feel the feet of a 60 year old diabetic woman, who had ulcers all over her feet.
The day before I had to touch my hands all over a sweaty fat persons stomach, who hadn't had a shower in months.
on tuesday I had a meth addict throw a kidney dish at me.
On monday I had to break it to a long standing patient that his MGUS was multiple myeloma, and he had less than 6 months to live.

There are far more reasons not to go into medicine than just the hours and study

>>6484590
What speciality are you in? Seems like this could be fixed by being a plastic surgeon in hollywood

>>6484329
>DO WE HAVE RETARDS RUNNING SOCIETY?
You haven't noticed?

>>6484329
Nurses do most of the work, though. Depending on where you are it's either the government that decreases salary or the market.

>>6484590
if you don't like it then you should move to california and prescribe people weed cards